People purposefully not saying things that they think will piss of their butthurt followers Pretty much every reviewer butt the one I mentioned before talks about moe and ecchi as if they're inherently bad, and I know for some that is cause they know the butthurts will get annoyed if they dont |
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EcchiLordMamster said: People purposefully not saying things that they think will piss of their butthurt followers Pretty much every reviewer butt the one I mentioned before talks about moe and ecchi as if they're inherently bad, and I know for some that is cause they know the butthurts will get annoyed if they dont Oh, I can only Imagine, just as I thought. I never really watched any ( no really ) Youtuber/talk show thing, but I figured it'd be this way. I mean, a one man( or woman ) talk channel based on adds for financing that achieve a great following = focus on please the audience = total mess, zombie factory. Ain't nothing good can come out of that, Mooo!!  |
| yes, because it's in relation to a medium i love so it makes it easier for me to learn a lot about animation, cinematography, directing, writing etc. anime analysis has actually taught me to appreciate movies and tv shows differently too. |
"I came here to sniff Madoka panties and kick witch ass and I am all out 'doka panties" - Homora Akemi |
Darek said: I love how everyone misunderstood the point and just derailed the conversation into anime youtubers... It sort of seems like this is exactly what the topic is about when I read the OP. Fadosious said: YouTubers like Digibro and Mother's Basement, whose content goes in-depth about why the anime they like works for them. Does it interest you to understand your tastes and emotions in such a way? Or would you rather just let your emotions naturally swell up as you go from show to show? That opening sentence gives me the impression that he's mainly asking about YTers, and because of that the next two sentences after it sound more like "do you want to look at things in that same way? Or would you rather just do your own thing?" than anything else. Even if that wasn't the intended implication by them, it certainly does seem that way and I can hardly blame anybody for talking about YTers here. |
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TeaAndWind said: EcchiLordMamster said: People purposefully not saying things that they think will piss of their butthurt followers Pretty much every reviewer butt the one I mentioned before talks about moe and ecchi as if they're inherently bad, and I know for some that is cause they know the butthurts will get annoyed if they dont Oh, I can only Imagine, just as I thought. I never really watched any ( no really ) Youtuber/talk show thing, but I figured it'd be this way. I mean, a one man( or woman ) talk channel based on adds for financing that achieve a great following = focus on please the audience = total mess, zombie factory. Ain't nothing good can come out of that, Mooo!! It's very obvious that many anime fans are just sheep, I even had a coworker who was a digibro meatrider, only to find out he didn't have his own criticisms, he just saw digibro bash some anime and thought "this guy must be right" |
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Darek said: Manaban said: the way it seems to me is that he just used them as an example of people who analyze the anime they watch and then asked whether people do the same thing, as if, whether they also analyze anime or are they just being led by emotions without thinking why did the anime made you feel the way it did.It sort of seems like this is exactly what the topic is about when I read the OP. That opening sentence gives me the impression that he's mainly asking about YTers, and because of that the next two sentences after it sound more like "do you want to look at things in that same way? Or would you rather just do your own thing?" than anything else. Even if that wasn't the intended implication by them, it certainly does seem that way and I can hardly blame anybody for talking about YTers here. Just imagine he would not give YTubers as examples and would simply say: some people analyze in depth the anime they watch and it works for them. Does it interest you to understand your tastes and emotions in such a way? Or would you rather just let your emotions naturally swell up as you go from show to show? Then, obviously, the implications of the OP would be entirely different and any conversation about YTers would actually be missing the point entirely. The issue is that neither of what I said in my response to you or you did in your rebuttal are what was actually asked as much as just reworded interpretations of it to further clarify how it was read. This is the point I'm trying to make here - it's unclear what he's asking to a degree, but it's still clear enough that it's able to be interpreted somehow. It's vague. If it weren't, then we wouldn't be able to have this conversation, either that or one of us would be actually clearly wrong and could shut down the other quite easily just by going back to the OP and pointing out what exactly was clear about it, rather than just "I think this is what it meant" like both of us just did. Unless the OP came in and corrected this and were more straightforward, then it's hardly faultable for it being interpreted as such. |
ManabanMay 29, 2017 4:58 AM
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Fadosious said: Elegade said: Just mentioning trash like Digibro or Mother's Basement already made this thread stupid and redundant. I don't know about you, but I don't think complaining is an analysis otherwise I would have gotten 150% in my college English class when I had to do an analysis. Good job blowing past the point of my post just to boast your animosity. Mm, I didn't see this. It does significantly further the case that the thread is more about what you're saying rather than what I'm saying, yuh yuh. I still do think this could've been avoided entirely had it been more clearly stated in the OP, though ._. |
ManabanMay 29, 2017 5:09 AM
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Well, not everybody is Mother's Basement. Which, I guess, can be the appeal of it to others - there are actually people who can express themselves without devolving into hyperbolic complaining, and even then, it's entirely possible that the people who do so can be doing so with sincerity and are just dogshit at making what they have to say seem worth reading/listening to without resorting to it. I can only guess the appeal of this sort of analysis on any level, written or YT or whatever, stems from that. Or, if I'm allowed to be cynical, they just want people to say what they think well for them so they can repeat it to others to strengthen their own viewpoint. Either way, I don't really care. Too many things to arse myself with that could be spent doing something more productive than complaining about people having the audacity to listen to somebody I think is a dipshit. I mean, I could complain about them being a dipshit, or if I'm feeling reasonable, do something better with my time all together and ignore the topic. I usually don't tho. |
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Synadex said: Is he that guy with the sunglasses he looks like the type of guy to say "If you don't like this anime your taste is shit" and vice versa. Never watched him though. I dunno about him but there's tons of threads that is devoted to Digibro and look at what happened to that thread... :/ YuriCarrier said: _Ako_ said: >Digibro The moment that I know this thread doesn't deserve 1 min of my life. Digibro isn't that bad. But the threads that is about/for him is bad. |
TeaAndWind said: @EcchiLordMamster Who's this digibro that everybody mention in this topic anyway's ? A famous Youtube channel by the looks of it ? Sorry, I'm a bit of an outsider when it comes to Internet in general. Made my profile here because my best friend recomended this site, said it would be fun. And it is. Edit: thinking better about all of this, I might have gotten a bit too dense on my first comment in the first page here, speaking my mind about Youtube channel without having had great experience watching them. Was just from a standpoint that it's all about the adds, so I might have gone too far. hes the most subbed anime reviewer if im not mistake, and hes extremely critical of anime, im pretty sure he started the whole "SAO sucks" meme i fully respect his right to say w/e he wants about anime, but when you're causing others to act as though theyre "smarter" because they're critical, and act as though theres a correct way to do something, well thats when the "fuck you" comes in |
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| A well redacted review? Why not. A dissection of some art techniques used in a certain scene or in a certain tale ? Of course. (be it animation or not) But a plain video of someone who likes to see him/herself on a screen to get his weekly (monthly?) 5 to 10 minutes of celebrity and didn't even take the time to arrange his thoughts in order ? No thanks. @TeaAndWind How was it dense to state you dislike YouTube's "sheep-ization" ? By the way, if you don't mind losing 10minutes of your time (though it can seem pretty long once you are in) you can always check randomly one of the videos by this "famous" person. Irony helping, it can be quite funny. edit @TeaAndWind I first couldn't believe that someone could qualify him as "journalist" then googled the term gonzo-journalism and it actually makes sense. Though, even the guy who started/popularized this concept must be rolling over in his tomb. Thank you for bringing the money problem on the table, I didn't even imagine this was actually making money... So, basically, this guy (and others with other "subjects") is considered an opinion-maker and gets his bills payed for that thanks to advertising generated money? I feel like I felt into the Twilight Zone. Just what does he say when his parents ask him how he supports his own life? xD Glad I'm not the only one thinking he sounds full of himself. After another short watch, I actually wonder if this guy isn't even self-aware of the stupidity of all this and simply happy to exploit the Internet masses. (it would be a sign of intelligence those videos' content kind of disproves) I hope you'll have a good time with Ima soku ni iru boku. PS: by the way, I have nothing against people working for magazines, newspapers, websites and writing about others works. It's not obnoxious like that (most of the time). @TeaAndWind |
Rei_IIIMay 29, 2017 10:13 AM
_Ako_ said: >Digibro The moment that I know this thread doesn't deserve 1 min of my life. This. People like that try analysis in an effort to objectify their opinions. That said, I like analysis in the form of getting even geekier about a given anime. Some stories are complex and get stronger with derivative works. |
 Click the banner for anime lists, discussions, reviews, and let's plays! |
OtakuDaikun said: _Ako_ said: >Digibro The moment that I know this thread doesn't deserve 1 min of my life. This. People like that try analysis in an effort to objectify their opinions. That said, I like analysis in the form of getting even geekier about a given anime. Some stories are complex and get stronger with derivative works. I don't hold any grudges to those who are analyzing anime with in-depth stuff and shitty stuff like symbolism of allah or something that is "deep" in mah waifu's pantsu shot... In fact there are times that I'm in the mood to do it. Though watching CGDCT is a priority at that point so yeah... :/ So anyway... I'm also not against Digibro doing his thing or anything... I just felt that some of the threads that aims to be "analytical" but failed at doing so is somewhat of a bummer, mostly the threads that is about Digibro or shit that he has claimed to say... :/ |
| If you want anime analysis on YouTube, you're far better off looking into the content of GoatJesus than either of those hacks. To answer the question, yes of course I enjoy analysis. It's fun to see what makes things work the way they do, down to the smallest components. Finding a whole new view on certain things is always interesting. |
AltoRoarkMay 29, 2017 9:00 PM
| @Rei366 You mean the digibro right, was just doing that actually, watched the start of the last video posted on his channel, called "old anime cast #9 otaku" in which he starts by saying... "It might seem a bit odd to some, and, in fact, even to me~ that I refer to myself as the Otaku-Gonzo-Journalist..." With a quirk voice of a very self-centered man baby. If that's not enough to make my jaw drop by the idiocy of it all, looking at his channel shows that he uploads about 2 to 3 videos a week. So here I'll outright say my opinion on this for whoever reads it: It's an add money leecher channel, runned by a moron man baby that has never received a life's punch, never experienced real need, and is out and free zombifying youngsters to pay for his life expenses because he is to lazy to actually go and learn to do something, create something. 2 to 3 videos a week...... talking about how his opinion on anime is valid = young ( or even older ) insecure people to leach to him, click on his videos, giving him money by doing it. Please, people, I have a better idea, instead of seeking validation there, come to this forum, which yes, is too funded by add money and whatever else. Here at least we can exchange our Ideas and opinions directly to each-other, we may change each-other many times, we may even exchange blows from time to time. But here ( and I'm repeating myself ), you are heard, and you can fight, and you can agree, disagree, and you'll be a real part of the discussion, it's real, and nobody gains anything more than the other. There, it's your insecurities paying for the life expenses of someone else, in exchange to hear what you want to hear, and relate to the behavior you wish you had. Drop it. Live for real, life is short.  Edit: No harm meant ^_^ |
54464987May 29, 2017 6:18 AM
| I like analysing, but I don't particularly like to listen to anime reviewers on youtube unless they're doing very specific stuff (like the OP analysis of MB) or very general stuff (like Digibros video about how studios work which is something that needed to be more known among the community). Them talking about individual series usually doesn't interest me. If I haven't seen it I don't want to be spoilered or I couldn't care less about the show, and if I have seen it the only reason to seek out videos like that was if I'm actually confused and unsure about how to interpret the show which happened like, 1,5 times in 3400 shows. Otherwise I'm thinking that either they agree with me and say the same things about the show (boring) or they disagree with me in a medium where I can't directly interact with them and question their position in an active argument (pointless). I'd much rather discuss on a forum than just be the passive recipient of youtube videos without being able to talk back and defend my position or critique theirs. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
EcchiLordMamster said: TeaAndWind said: @EcchiLordMamster Who's this digibro that everybody mention in this topic anyway's ? A famous Youtube channel by the looks of it ? Sorry, I'm a bit of an outsider when it comes to Internet in general. Made my profile here because my best friend recomended this site, said it would be fun. And it is. Edit: thinking better about all of this, I might have gotten a bit too dense on my first comment in the first page here, speaking my mind about Youtube channel without having had great experience watching them. Was just from a standpoint that it's all about the adds, so I might have gone too far. hes the most subbed anime reviewer if im not mistake, and hes extremely critical of anime, im pretty sure he started the whole "SAO sucks" meme Gigguk has twice as many subscribers and The Anime Man almost 4 times as many. He's just the biggest anime youtuber who doesn't try to be funny all the time I think. He's talked about because of his serious approach compared to other big anime youtubers as far as I can tell. Also as someone who watched SAO while it aired, on MAL, I can tell you that what started the 'SAO sucks' meme was SAO, nothing else. You could see how appreciation of the show went down gradually during the second cours. People who were skeptical before started hating it, people like me who loved it early one become extremely skeptical and at the end of it people were already fully divided into 'fans' and 'haters' (if you weren't a fan you were seen as a hater even if you just found the show to be sub-par without any actual hatred towards it). The show was intensely popular, sure, but there was still alot of immediate backlash and Digibro wasn't even mentioned at all back then (I didn't even know he existed). It's more likely that reviewers like him just happened to be in the haters camp (a lot of people who think analytical about anime are so it's not surprising) and therefore their videos focused on that position. Plus of course once you realize that those videos are attracting viewers like shit attracts flies you'll keep making them. But Digibro hasn't 'started' anything regarding SAO. |
AlcoholicideMay 29, 2017 10:56 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Honestly, yes. But not to the point of over analyzing it. For instance, I just recently watched DanMachi and I haven't read the manga or the LN but I have a few assumptions but I might say something that might spoil others who haven't watched the series yet so I'll shut up hahaha. |
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| Well, I am subscribed to both of them. But I only watch Mothers Basements OP analysis videos. I haven't watched a Digibro video in a while though. I only watch the anime analysis after I finish watching a particular show which I think I'll be more interested in knowing more about it. I do enjoy watching Mother's OP and ED analysis videos because of all the little things in them. It makes me like and appreciate them even more. |
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| I love good anime analysis, yes. One of the best parts of consuming anime and fiction in general. I don't necessarily need to obsessively analyze anime while watching (though sometimes I do), but I definitely love reflecting on what I watch. And hearing different perspectives on stories, whether you liked said stories or not and whether such perspectives are positive or negative, is often enlightening and really helps enhance the anime experience, at least for me. I've seen some people argue that people should just enjoy what they watch without killing their entertainment with analysis, but I think analysis is part of the entertainment. It's fun and makes for more enjoyable watching. And, for really good anime, I think they've earned the right to be treated with as much thought by the audience as they were by their creators. |
| My anime blog Latest Post: The Zero Requiem (Analysis of the Ending of Code Geass) |
| No I actually despise em. It takes the fun out of anime and its "magic". I just wanna watch the show goddamnit, dont care about anything else |
| Yes, I definitely do enjoy it, though I have a loathing towards forms of criticism that seek to change or destroy the meaning of a work rather than to explore or enhance the understanding of it. For example, I find the concepts behind deconstruction criticism, psychoanalytic criticism, and biographical criticism to be obnoxious and far less useful than more direct and constructive examinations such as sociological criticism, formalist criticism, and reader-response criticism. The way I see fiction is that it is always meant to serve a purpose, and that purpose should be readily identifiable through close examination if it is not immediately apparent. That purpose can be as simple as making the consumer laugh or as complex as trying to convey some profound meaning. If the work fails to make its purpose clear then the work itself is dead and useless. Once the work's purpose and the author's apparent intent has been identified, I believe analysis should shift toward the response of the consumer: Is the work's purpose praiseworthy or contemptible? Did the work fulfill its purpose well? Why and how? These are the types of questions I believe ought to be asked. To summarize: 1. Fiction must be capable of holding meaning, or else it is pointless. 2. The meaning and purpose of the work, along with the author's intent, is important. 3. Although point 2 is true, it does not supersede the consumer's ultimate response to the work provided that (a) the consumer understands the work's purpose/meaning and (b) the consumer can understand or explore their tastes and values well enough to sufficiently explain why various elements in the work were or were not praiseworthy to them. I also believe the idea that this approach to fiction/criticism is inherently lowbrow and of less worth than some of the more "perverting" forms of criticism I mentioned in the first paragraph is part of what colors the perception of more intellectual critics as being pretentious or elitist, and as such I'm curious what @Fvlminatvs would have to say about it. |
TripleSRankMay 29, 2017 12:08 PM
Pullman said: Gigguk has twice as many subscribers and The Anime Man almost 4 times as many. He's just the biggest anime youtuber who doesn't try to be funny all the time I think. He's talked about because of his serious approach compared to other big anime youtubers as far as I can tell. Also as someone who watched SAO while it aired, on MAL, I can tell you that what started the 'SAO sucks' meme was SAO, nothing else. You could see how appreciation of the show went down gradually during the second cours. People who were skeptical before started hating it, people like me who loved it early one become extremely skeptical and at the end of it people were already fully divided into 'fans' and 'haters' (if you weren't a fan you were seen as a hater even if you just found the show to be sub-par without any actual hatred towards it). The show was intensely popular, sure, but there was still alot of immediate backlash and Digibro wasn't even mentioned at all back then (I didn't even know he existed). It's more likely that reviewers like him just happened to be in the haters camp (a lot of people who think analytical about anime are so it's not surprising) and therefore their videos focused on that position. Plus of course once you realize that those videos are attracting viewers like shit attracts flies you'll keep making them. But Digibro hasn't 'started' anything regarding SAO. gawd damn, i guess i just don't see the appeal of these anime youtubers.. lol maybe when they stop acting as though fanservice is inherently bad then ill give a shit about them, not that me not watching affects their channel i occasionally watch The Anime man, but only depending on what he talks about.... but thats it for me since the fanservice guy doesn't do shit anymore due to always losing his channel :/ no i noticed people shit talking SAO when it was airing the 2nd 1/2 of the first season BUT the whole "meme" i didn't notice until digibro came along... the fact is that SAO did absolutely nothing that no other anime hadn't already, so the fact that its the first show that people target when it comes to hate i feel had to have been started by someone |
EcchiGodMamsterMay 29, 2017 12:14 PM
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| I do like anime analysis. But there are others "whose content goes in-depth". |
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| Yes, I like listening to my senpai Gigguk talk about why he hates everything non-Baccano related |
| depends. I usually like Mother Basement's analysis of anime openings (especially the FMA ones) but not the anime analysis. I recently watched someone who was criticizing Gekkan Shoujo Nozaki-kun, but didn't realize that the show was a comedic parody of shoujo anime. |
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| I don't watch anime youtubers, period. I do however enjoy analyzing anime, but I keep my thoughts to myself until someone asks.@TripleSRank pretty much summed up my thought process for me. What is the anime's goal and how does it go about reaching this goal? Taking some time to analyze an anime might change your perspective of it. I originally hated School Days, but when I learned what its intentions were, I came to like and appreciate it a lot more. |
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| Sure. I like glass reflection's videos enough. It usually doesn't change my opinion of the anime, but they're interesting to watch. |
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| Mm, my first post doesn't really feel on-topic in hindsight, so I'll go back through and try to write something less shit. --------- Usually when I force myself to try to look at things through a more analytical lens, it's because I want to try to make what I say be than just some drivel and so it's really just putting forth more effort into expanding on my thoughts than I normally would. I'd hesitate to call it analysis because of the connotation held with that the word, and I'll outright deny anything regarding it being in-depth, because obviously, it isn't. It's also something I've only done if somebody asks for my thoughts with a specific series, which has happened less than 10 times total probably, and so I don't have to do it very often - and even with all of that, if I'm not in the mood for it or it's something I don't see needing to be expanded on, I still won't arse myself. It's often really simple stuff,and I don't want to put a raincoat on the goat and act like it's anything more, but, shockingly (:V) I've found that it's pretty hard to make things like "I like the titties" or "kewl action" or "funny har har made me laugh" sound anything like it's on the tier as even some guy retreading some oft-discussed thematic reasoning for liking something. At the same time, or in spite of that rather, I really don't want to cede my position in cases like that for the principle of not devaluing this more simple way of looking at things - which I pretty strongly believe is just as valid as some guy who can write an essay talking about liking the same series, but because of its psychological explorations with the characters or something along those lines. I'm just kind of rambling aimlessly now and I don't want to backspace everything I've written ._. But no, even at my most I don't really look at things on a deeper level in any way. That's probably my personality more than anything - I've got little interest in the inner workings of things, at the risk of sounding arrogant I've got little interest in the world around me for the most part. That applies to me in real life where I've got a very dull and routine lifestyle for the most part that I'm quite happy with, and that applies to me when I seek out entertainment. Not inquisitive. Not a leader. Not a free-thinker. I just want what's before me, for the most part, and that attitude also shines through with how I entertain myself as well. |
ManabanMay 29, 2017 4:24 PM
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| No, not really, unless it's the kind of story that meant to be thought provoking. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
the more there is to overanalyze the better amirite? ;^) thanks for most of the interesting, kinda unknown channels @Fvlminatvs I think the guy with Matrix overthinks a bit and the Shakespearefag sadly didnt get a chance, maybe Ill try later if he has other non-shaikspier related ones @Pullman seems like youre a bad listener :P Analyzing smth from a different angle isnt only about agreement/disagreement but interpretation methods etc and if you dont spend much time on thinking about smth or arent in the right condition its easy to miss stuff you wouldve otherwise caught and someones analysis might help with that. Some videos/articles cover potential questions/responses just fine without the need to achieve agreement/disagreement to be beneficial. OT: I watch some whenever I have nothing better to do with my time so pretty often generally, not on shows I havent seen or plan to watch tho. I think more critically afterwards rather than during watching unless something breaks my immersion really hard. |
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
| Anime analysis is probably the best thing about anime. The fact that I can see an anime through a different perspective and add to the well of knowledge. |
straysocks said: Generally, I try and watch shows the first time around without expectation and just experience them, and only later reflect/read reviews/rewatch/etc and form more concrete and analysis-based opinions. But only with shows that impact me enough to find the experience rewarding and interesting~ This is true for me. My initial appreciation of some shows (FLCL, Tenshi no Tamago) was almost entirely dependent on the "research" and deep introspection I did after watching them. I don't watch anime just for entertainment. I watch it for mostly for the philosophy and emotional experience. Because of this, I would prefer to stick with a series until I more fully understand it than watch en masse. |
Thorn_WallMay 29, 2017 6:19 PM
TripleSRank said: I also believe the idea that this approach to fiction/criticism is inherently lowbrow and of less worth than some of the more "perverting" forms of criticism I mentioned in the first paragraph is part of what colors the perception of more intellectual critics as being pretentious or elitist, and as such I'm curious what @Fvlminatvs would have to say about it. Well, since you asked... I'm familiar with all of this. Indeed, the ivory tower has become quite elitist, ever since Jacques Derrida conquered French universities and spread to Yale. It has, very much, become a self-congratulatory cabal of pseudo-intellectualism ("pseudo" because most articles and professors I've encountered in the field merely ape the likes of Derrida, Foucault, Baudrillard, Lacan, etc. and effectively say nothing). It has made higher learning and higher criticism derisively distant from the layperson. I personally lament this. For example, I find the concepts behind deconstruction criticism, psychoanalytic criticism, and biographical criticism to be obnoxious... They are useful tools, just like anything else. Unfortunately, they are no longer means but now the end. ...and far less useful than more direct and constructive examinations such as sociological criticism, formalist criticism, and reader-response criticism. I'm tempted to agree with you, here, because I've gotten more mileage out of them myself. I also disagree to adhering to a single form of criticism, as I see the New Criticism that popped up around the early-to-mid-20th century to be just as useful as reader-response. The way I see fiction is that it is always meant to serve a purpose, and that purpose should be readily identifiable through close examination if it is not immediately apparent. I take it, then, that you detest dadaism. 1. Fiction must be capable of holding meaning, or else it is pointless. I could argue that narrative fiction being bereft of meaning is an impossibility. Not sure I want to do so here and now, though. 2. The meaning and purpose of the work, along with the author's intent, is important. Totally agree. However, I also agree that the reader's interpretation of the text can also be important. 3. Although point 2 is true, it does not supersede the consumer's ultimate response to the work provided that (a) the consumer understands the work's purpose/meaning and (b) the consumer can understand or explore their tastes and values well enough to sufficiently explain why various elements in the work were or were not praiseworthy to them. I'm not going to argue here, either. Tastes change and vary from time to time and culture to culture but I do think the best stories have enough to say about the human condition to be eternally and universally relevant. |
Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: I also believe the idea that this approach to fiction/criticism is inherently lowbrow and of less worth than some of the more "perverting" forms of criticism I mentioned in the first paragraph is part of what colors the perception of more intellectual critics as being pretentious or elitist, and as such I'm curious what @Fvlminatvs would have to say about it. Well, since you asked... I'm familiar with all of this. Indeed, the ivory tower has become quite elitist, ever since Jacques Derrida conquered French universities and spread to Yale. It has, very much, become a self-congratulatory cabal of pseudo-intellectualism ("pseudo" because most articles and professors I've encountered in the field merely ape the likes of Derrida, Foucault, Baudrillard, Lacan, etc. and effectively say nothing). It has made higher learning and higher criticism derisively distant from the layperson. I personally lament this. I'm glad to hear you lament it. As a layperson I find it frustrating at times. Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: For example, I find the concepts behind deconstruction criticism, psychoanalytic criticism, and biographical criticism to be obnoxious... They are useful tools, just like anything else. Unfortunately, they are no longer means but now the end. That's certainly fair enough. Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: ...and far less useful than more direct and constructive examinations such as sociological criticism, formalist criticism, and reader-response criticism. I'm tempted to agree with you, here, because I've gotten more mileage out of them myself. I also disagree to adhering to a single form of criticism, as I see the New Criticism that popped up around the early-to-mid-20th century to be just as useful as reader-response. I'm not too familiar with New Criticism specifically, but we're definitely on the same page concerning the usage of multiple forms of criticism. It leads to a more well-rounded view, I think. Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: The way I see fiction is that it is always meant to serve a purpose, and that purpose should be readily identifiable through close examination if it is not immediately apparent. I take it, then, that you detest dadaism. Absolutely. Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: 1. Fiction must be capable of holding meaning, or else it is pointless. I could argue that narrative fiction being bereft of meaning is an impossibility. Not sure I want to do so here and now, though. Ah, I may have worded that a bit too simply. My intention was to convey that fiction must be capable of holding a meaning that can be discovered and understood. It's obvious that the author can imbue meaning in the work, but if that meaning cannot reach the (intended) consumer of the work to some extent then I question what the purpose of fiction would be. Fvlminatvs said: TripleSRank said: 3. Although point 2 is true, it does not supersede the consumer's ultimate response to the work provided that (a) the consumer understands the work's purpose/meaning and (b) the consumer can understand or explore their tastes and values well enough to sufficiently explain why various elements in the work were or were not praiseworthy to them. I'm not going to argue here, either. Tastes change and vary from time to time and culture to culture but I do think the best stories have enough to say about the human condition to be eternally and universally relevant. I don't have much to add since we appear to be in agreement, but I'm glad to see you say this because it acknowledges the existence of truth: I abhor relativism. |
| Yeah, I love them. I enjoy a good analysis and review, especially with shows that make you think even a little. |
 Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
| I love analysis, but I'm too stupid to do it myself, so watching Digibro's stuff is great, and I slightly hate watching Mother's Basement. Digibro is smarter in my opinion, and has better opinions in general, but he also gets to the point. Mother's Basement has these needlessly long 20 minute videos, which it is blatantly obvious is for the ads, and I can't stand it. This is in contrast with Digibro whose videos are usually under 10 minutes, and still provide more substance. |
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