| ^ Enjoyment is mostly irrelevant for me at least; I try to put my basic knowledge of writing, literature, and art to work instead. What about you guys? If there's a particular genre that you can't enjoy, or perhaps even hate to death, could you possibly acknowledge a particular anime of that genre as "good?" Good as in: "to be desired or approved of." "having the qualities required for a particular role." Of course, these would be tied to objective standards of your own design (though obviously it'd be unlikely to be objective in an absolute sense). |
MortalMelancholyMar 20, 2017 2:40 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| If by "good" you mean "a lot of people will probably like this show even if I didn't" then... sure. That's not what I would normally mean when I say good though. Not like I would ever give an anime a good score if I didn't enjoy it personally. My scores are from my own perspective after all, not anyone else's |
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| Depends on why you watch anime imo. If you watch anime to spend some of your time with something you like, then I think enjoyment is the main point. If you watch it for some other reason (like valuing their artistic worth) I believe you don't have to enjoy the show to be able to aknowledge them. It's all about whether you want to form an objective or a subjective opinion of the show. |
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| Generally if I'm watching an anime from a genre I don't like it's because someone told me to watch it or I otherwise have expectations of enjoying it. If despite all it did for other people it still fails to entertain me then subjective to me it still isn't good. Enjoyment can after watching the anime if it doesn't happen during, but if this isn't present within a couple days after watching it then you likely never will enjoy it. There are things to objectively analyze, but whether if those things are good or not is subjective. |
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| I somewhat enjoyed Mirai Nikki because Yuno. I also enjoyed Attack on Titan because of those creepy titans. Both of these shows rely on shock factors which is a sign of bad story writing. However, I still enjoyed them. So to answer you OP, no. If I am enjoying an anime it may be bad or good; it depends. |
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| Not necessarily, but it's uncommon. My values sense and my emotive sense tend to align. I rate purely on my own sensibilities, though. I know there are many people who will enjoy RahXephon or make it out to be an excellent show qualitatively speaking, and I might even rec it to some people, but my evaluation is still that it's mediocre. |
TripleSRankMar 20, 2017 2:35 AM
| There were some anime that I think were good in terms of story and character developement, but I didn't really enjoy them, e.g. The Tatami Galaxy. Though its not possible for me to acknowledge an anime I hated. |
fuyukiMar 20, 2017 2:42 AM
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John_2001 said: How does SHingeki rely on shock factor again?I somewhat enjoyed Mirai Nikki because Yuno. I also enjoyed Attack on Titan because of those creepy titans. Both of these shows rely on shock factors which is a sign of bad story writing. However, I still enjoyed them. So to answer you OP, no. If I am enjoying an anime it may be bad or good; it depends. Actually scratch that, how does shocking the audience inherently represent bad storytelling or writing? |
SapewlothMar 20, 2017 2:43 AM
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| Well you might recognise some elements are good but feel the show isn't all that otherwise. |
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MortalMelancholy said: ^ Enjoyment is mostly irrelevant for me at least; I try to put my basic knowledge of writing, literature, and art to work instead. What about you guys? If there's a particular genre that you can't enjoy, or perhaps even hate to death, could you possibly acknowledge a particular anime of that genre as "good?" Not really, because: 1. I generally hesitate to judge things that I haven't watched. 2. I don't really like terms like "good" and "bad" very much -- it's much more specific and actually gets around subjectiveness to some extent to ask, not whether something is "good", but instead whether something is "effective" at conveying a certain result, such as telling a story with a certain emotional atmosphere. That said, I use my knowledge of writing, literature, art, psychology, etc. to analyze why a certain result has or hasn't happened, but those things alone cannot be the result itself. So in a way, to answer your question: yes, I consider enjoyment of something necessary for me to have a positive opinion of it. This is actually related to a criticism I have of Madoka Magica, which is that I felt that, despite its caring a lot about the details of the setting premise and storytelling techniques and such, the result fell flat for me, emotionally, so something went wrong. I've been trying to figure out what went wrong, but whatever the reason, I can't say I like the series, because I didn't enjoy it, and thus I can't say it's "good". Doesn't mean I'll say it's "bad", but on the other hand I will opine that it feels "dry" or "wordy". |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| An anime which gave you zero enjoyment can't be called good in my opinion, since that just proves that EVERYTHING in it failed, characters, story etc etc |
"At some point, I stopped hoping." |
| I try to recognize effort put into creating and the goal of the show when scoring Being effective with its time is also pretty important but it counts into effort and respecting the audience |
SpaghettiSpikeMar 20, 2017 2:43 AM
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
Sapewloth said: There were lots of pointless deaths. Eg-John_2001 said: How does SHingeki rely on shock factor again?I somewhat enjoyed Mirai Nikki because Yuno. I also enjoyed Attack on Titan because of those creepy titans. Both of these shows rely on shock factors which is a sign of bad story writing. However, I still enjoyed them. So to answer you OP, no. If I am enjoying an anime it may be bad or good; it depends. I don't mean to say that the premise isn't dangerous or intimidating but introducing some random characters to the screen just to show them getting chowed down by titans or getting shoot to death does count as shock factor. But there were good deaths as well such as EDIT: To reply to your edit, if you are trying to imply that shocking the viewers is OK then you should think Akame ga kill, Mirai Nikki and Re:Zero as masterpieces. The problem here is that the authors are running away from actually presenting a dramatic scenario and slowly building it up to conclusion or in simple words, they lack strong execution. Killing, showing disjointed parts, blood or making characters screech out of pain just to induce tension to the viewers is bad and and even becomes repetitive. Perfect Blue, in my opinion built each and every death to perfection while still being very grounded and acceptable. Berserk also deals with heavier themes nicely. AoT had set its premise very well (compared to three shows I mentioned above) but it still went too far on relying on random deaths and gore. |
John_2001Mar 20, 2017 3:03 AM
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| Not really, the purpose is to entertain the viewers and if they fail in doing that then they didn't do a good job. However there are shows that I didn't like but I know others might enjoy them. |
Sapewloth said: John_2001 said: How does SHingeki rely on shock factor again?I somewhat enjoyed Mirai Nikki because Yuno. I also enjoyed Attack on Titan because of those creepy titans. Both of these shows rely on shock factors which is a sign of bad story writing. However, I still enjoyed them. So to answer you OP, no. If I am enjoying an anime it may be bad or good; it depends. Actually scratch that, how does shocking the audience inherently represent bad storytelling or writing? Because its a cheap trick to impress the audience, much easier to do than writing an engaging story. The effect might be the same and its just in hindsight or if it gets overused that it looks bad. I dont have anything against most of the deaths in AoT tho |
| Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
oryouohagi said: Depends on why you watch anime imo. If you watch anime to spend some of your time with something you like, then I think enjoyment is the main point. If you watch it for some other reason (like valuing their artistic worth) I believe you don't have to enjoy the show to be able to aknowledge them. It's all about whether you want to form an objective or a subjective opinion of the show. I mean, there's no reason you can't have both. After all, you don't know what you'll get out of an anime until you actually watch it. Darek said: Good = serves its purpose The main purpose of a show is to entertain. Therefore no, I wouldn't. Tho you could go more in detail, like if it represents its themes well etc. Which is also kind of its purpose but tbh, I don 't care about the entire good/bad debates. That's a simpleminded concept of purpose, and an egocentric interpretation. GlennMagusHarvey said: MortalMelancholy said: ^ Enjoyment is mostly irrelevant for me at least; I try to put my basic knowledge of writing, literature, and art to work instead. What about you guys? If there's a particular genre that you can't enjoy, or perhaps even hate to death, could you possibly acknowledge a particular anime of that genre as "good?" Not really, because: 1. I generally hesitate to judge things that I haven't watched. 2. I don't really like terms like "good" and "bad" very much -- it's much more specific and actually gets around subjectiveness to some extent to ask, not whether something is "good", but instead whether something is "effective" at conveying a certain result, such as telling a story with a certain emotional atmosphere. That said, I use my knowledge of writing, literature, art, psychology, etc. to analyze why a certain result has or hasn't happened, but those things alone cannot be the result itself. So in a way, to answer your question: yes, I consider enjoyment of something necessary for me to have a positive opinion of it. This is actually related to a criticism I have of Madoka Magica, which is that I felt that, despite its caring a lot about the details of the setting premise and storytelling techniques and such, the result fell flat for me, emotionally, so something went wrong. I've been trying to figure out what went wrong, but whatever the reason, I can't say I like the series, because I didn't enjoy it, and thus I can't say it's "good". Doesn't mean I'll say it's "bad", but on the other hand I will opine that it feels "dry" or "wordy". I do agree that there's a wide spectrum between "good" and "bad;" but more than simply "achieving its purpose," something "good," would achieve its purpose to a degree (depending on the difficulty of said purpose), that demonstrates human ingenuity superior to comparable works. joe_g7 said: An anime which gave you zero enjoyment can't be called good in my opinion, since that just proves that EVERYTHING in it failed, characters, story etc etc Enjoyment factor is far too subjective to prove squat. Someone could enjoy an anime just because objects move on the screen, while someone else could be traumatized by the sound of gunfire, and be incapable of enjoying any show that had guns. HamburgerSpike said: I try to recognize effort put into creating and the goal of the show when scoring Being effective with its time is also pretty important but it counts into effort and respecting the audience Yeah, I agree that effort and consideration of the audience's perspective are important. Both are difficult to recognize, though I think the latter is significantly moreso. @John_2001 Some AoT scenes relied on shock factor, but a type of setting where humans are incredibly disadvantaged against titans, deaths should be common enough to not require any sort of buildup. It is relying on shock factor if a significant amount of screen-time is focused on deaths that have few other implications, but this is acceptable if not over-used, and I don't believe AoT overused it. |
MortalMelancholyMar 20, 2017 3:14 AM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
John_2001 said: The death in your spoiler was meant to highlight the despair the supply team was thrown in after the titans invaded. While shocking, it drove its point across and perfectly fit within the story and the themes adressed (I also don't remember the girl being shot in the head, at least in the anime)Sapewloth said: There were lots of pointless deaths. Eg-How does SHingeki rely on shock factor again? I don't mean to say that the premise isn't dangerous or intimidating but introducing some random characters to the screen just to show them getting chowed down by titans or getting shoot to death does count as shock factor. But there were good deaths as well such as That's why I'm asking why provoking shock is inherently bad, especially when it serves a purpose. Also, characters who get chewed out by titans are mostly redshirts and rarely ever have a proper introduction. Death is common in this setting and whether you think they're pointless or not there's no way around it, just like there's no way around showing death in a standard war movie or series. Besides, the deaths are seldom directly shown precisely to avoid unnecessary graphic violence (and because light censorship is a given on TV too, but that's another topic altogether). |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
| I don't think so. I've never been a fan of Yuasa but I know that his works are considered good. |
| I don't have to enjoy a show to consider it as good and acknowledge it's strenght, but that doesn't automatically imply that I like it. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
| i can see that cowboy bebop is a good anime even if i don't enjoy it so, no, same with most of ghibli's movies |
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| If I don't enjoy watching it I consider it bad, that's normal. |
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| @Sapewloth @MortalMelancholy Fair enough, I also felt like I was nitpicking a little. Also, I don't really remember much of the show's premise and characters, been a while. So, I may change my views on it after a re-watch. |
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| I think School Days is pretty okay but couldn't enjoy a single moment of it :/ |
| Yes, it's not good writing if I don't enjoy or am interested in it. Being interesting and enjoyable are not that different for me. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| If I never enjoyed watching an anime I label it as bad. I judge anime based on what I like and what I don't like I never take like a deep analysis to it and anything. If it was enjoyable it's good if it was boring then it's bad, for me at least. |
 yeehaw |
| Not really, you just need Digibro to think the series is good, and by default it is good. xD |
| No, because appreciation of art is often, but not always, divorced from whether or not you enjoy art, and there is a significant difference between having real substantive criticism against a work and simply discrediting it out of personal preference. |
| For a long time, I thought this was the case. After completing Guardian of the Sacred Spirit, I was relieved to learn that yes, I can acknowledge that something is good while not enjoying it. |
"I'd take rampant lesbianism over nuclear armageddon or a supervolcano any day." ~nikiforova |
| I'm not going to shit the bed and say something I didn't like was "good." I'd be completely full of it if I acted like I thought that. If I thought it was good then I would've liked it. The only time that's usually applied is by people who can't explain themselves well enough as to why they didn't like a critically acclaimed anime, so they end up just ceding the point before they can get jumped on for saying they didn't like something that has had books' worth of praises of it written and reiterated into the ground, without having to give up their platform on it. If I see it applied, I'm going to just dismiss it as a copout and nothing more, because that's all it is. |
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| If it was good I would've enjoyed it. No enjoyment = No good! |
| Man, I have to stop falling in love with fictitious high school girls'...moms! |
| Yes. My enjoyment and entertainment in something relates to my view on the quality of the show. If I don't enjoy anything out of the show, how can I consider it good when I feel just about everything that the show offers is shit? If I find the show to be average, I could see how someone else thinks it's good, but I won't acknowledge the whole series as good because I didn't enjoy it enough for me to justify that claim. |
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| it is a fucking tv show, so unless I enjoy it, I wont give two shits about it. there are many shows which I ignore that are rated highly bcz I have no interest in those kinds, eg walking dead, breaking bad, game of thores.... so no, just cuz its anime wont make it any good if its the kind I dont like, hell I wont even watch it in the 1st palce |
| Yes I need to enjoy it. It's unbearably pretentious to act like you recognize how great a piece of entertainment is if you apparently couldn't even see what was entertaining about it. I can acknowledge if it contains elements other people might like, but I can't go recommending it as a good example of those things. For all I know it could be a mediocre example of those things. Let the enthusiasts recommend what they're enthusiastic about. |
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| Even if I don't like a show or it's not to my taste, I can acknowledge a "well made/written/acted" show. Not sure if the word "good" is the best way to put it. |
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| Enjoyment is merely the experience of perceiving a piece of art as good. It's just the active verb of the aesthetic experience. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| When a perceive something as "having the qualities required for a particular role." or in anime terms, as being good at what it is trying to do (or at what I think it is trying to do) I will automatically enjoy it just for being well executed. Unless it's a type of show I absolutely hate from the start, but I wouldn't watch something like that in the first place. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Of course. Enjoyment comes from many factors. If I didn't enjoy it there must be something inherently wrong with the anime. |
| what |
| The definition of entertain is to: provide (someone) with amusement or enjoyment. Assuming a show's job is to "entertain" is a pretty closed minded way of looking at art. A show's job is simply to make an impact on you. To make you feel something in a potent way. That can be in the form of being fun and entertaining you, or hit you with a powerful, emotional message, or expand your worldview, etc. All are equally viable. I sure as hell wouldn't call Texhnolyze "entertaining" in a traditional sense. But it made a massive impact on me. It's not even close to bad. Texhnolyze didn't want me to have fun, it wanted to crush me. And it did. I wouldn't call the experience "entertaining", but I would call it immensely powerful and rewarding. tl;dr stop declaring a blanket objective for art, because if everyone accepted that art was meant to do one thing, the result is creativity being reigned in even more than it is now |
bastard_of_youngMar 20, 2017 2:22 PM
| TEN COMMANDMENTS: 1) If Evangelion and Psycho-Pass are his only 10s, he probably also worships Tool and smells like cheesy puffs 2) Freudian psychosis =/= good writing 3) Moe blob art style is only ok in pure slice-of-life comedy 4) It's ok to enjoy shounen. Having fun is allowed 5) It is not ok to enjoy isekai (jk, it is, I just fucking hate it) 6) Creator breakdown =/= good writing 7) A story does not have to be wrapped up with a bow. Life is messy, why would a good story need to be tidy? 8) InuYasha is proto-Twilight 9) Ecchi CAN be good, but is almost always an abomination 10) If God is real, They allowed Super Kid to happen, so fuck Them |
| Enjoyment for me, generally speaking, is derived from quality. The elements that I perceive to be good enhance my personal enjoyment of the work. That being said, there are exceptions to the rule and this is the case for "so-bad-its-good" titles. |
Take care of yourself |
| I don't think you need to "enjoy" it in order to acknowledge its accomplishment(s) or mark/impact in the anime industry. |
 Three things cannot be long hidden.. ...the s u n, the m oo n, and the tr u th. |
| Yeah, I would have to have enjoyed the majority of the show and rated it 7 or above to say it was "good." Whether it's some kind of "iconic" show, "it won awards" or it "accomplished something great" doesn't make me care about it or change my opinion if it sucked. Also there are always exceptions even for genres I don't generally like: -I don't generally like shounen ai but I watched and liked No. 6 -I don't generally enjoy magical girl but I liked Madoka Magica and the Lyrical Nanoha franchises -I don't generally like sports anime but I enjoyed the Initial D series, Overdrive, Chihayafuru, Bamboo Blade, and Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple |
KruszerMar 20, 2017 3:38 PM
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
| Unless the reason I'm unable to enjoy an anime is simply because "it's not my type of show", then yeah, I need to enjoy the show first to deem it as good. |
HyperLMar 20, 2017 3:56 PM
| You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
| If it's not enjoyable it's just not good. Anime, like other mediums of storytelling is meant to entertain and uses aspects such as its story, character, art, sound to contribute to the viewer's enjoyment. |
| “Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one, and only, truth. But the world isn't perfect, and the law is incomplete..." -Alphonse Elric "Then and now, what I protect has never changed!" -Sakata Gintoki I'll take anything like The Pet Girl of Sakurasou. Anything as good as that. |
| For me yeah Gintama is good because it and every season/spinoff whatever is in the top 15 (it's pretty much an undeniable fact) but I don't like it so it's bad for me |
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| It always starts with enjoyment. If I can't enjoy a show (even a little bit), I would just think it's bad. No questions asked. |
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