| If it's done in a way which actually feels naturally integrated into the show, either through plot points or through the characters' personalities then it's fine. Like with the Monogatari Series or No Game No Life for example the fanservice felt perfectly natural just because the main characters were actually that kind of people to begin with, and it doesn't really hamper the storytelling going on meanwhile as a result. The same can be argued for Kill la Kill with its clothing/nudity message, though I'll admit that it was kinda forced into the camera a bit excessively at times If it is really just added on for the hell of it without much thought or reason though, then yeah it'll likely never amount to anything more than a needless distraction. Ultimately, it all depends on the execution though PS: There are some shows where the "mature themes" are directly sexual in nature though (see Kuzu no Honkai from this season for example), in which case the sexual elements and the deeper messages are basically one and the same |
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| There's never a bad time for pantsu tbh Fanservice makes everything better |
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| No, because fan service isn't always sexual, and something sexual isn't always fan service. |
| The fanservice/nudity in Kill la Kill are "supposedly" essential to its themes of women empowerment and objectification but it already contradicted itself when Senketsu forced himself on Ryuko despite the latter's obvious defiance and discomfort and even if we ignore that fact, those themes only lasted for like a few episodes in the beginning as it started taking itself seriously later which made most of the nudity just pure fanservice with nothing hidden beneath it. It's just a whimsical and wacky show with lots of fanservice, extremely stylistic and sometimes cheap animation and wasted themes. |
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| Mandatory "depends on the execution" yadda yadda. If it's integral to the theme, I don't see it as a problem, but if it's not important, then yeah. |
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Irrupt said: No, because fan service isn't always sexual, and something sexual isn't always fan service. Theres always one of these guys who prioritizes showing off their knowledge instead of agreeing to the semantics for the sake of discussion, smh Theres also one of those guys feeling the need to make an overused joke about tits, ass and/or fapping being always a good thing, Ako or this doctor sex smth comes to mind. OT: If you like it, it makes it better if you dont than apparently not, but thats a vague answer so Ill just say that it annoyed me in TTGL but the way it was done in PSG or Afro Samurai was really cool, Cowboy Bebop is on the neutral ground. Berserk was nice but I wouldnt consider it fanservice |
 Oshii is probably the only director that loves dogs. He thinks he's a dog himself. That's right, its slime! It will dissolve your clothing slowly before my eyes! |
HamburgerSpike said: Irrupt said: No, because fan service isn't always sexual, and something sexual isn't always fan service. Theres always one of these guys who prioritizes showing off their knowledge instead of agreeing to the semantics for the sake of discussion, smh Theres also one of those guys feeling the need to make an overused joke about tits, ass and/or fapping being always a good thing, Ako or this doctor sex smth comes to mind. OT: If you like it, it makes it better if you dont than apparently not, but thats a vague answer so Ill just say that it annoyed me in TTGL but the way it was done in PSG or Afro Samurai was really cool, Cowboy Bebop is on the neutral ground. Berserk was nice but I wouldnt consider it fanservice I'm not really joking. Presenting myself in a way that isn't particularly serious, sure, but that's just because it's a stupid topic to be serious about to begin with I legitimately can't recall a time where I have thought fanservice was anything except an improvement, yuh. |
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Tenshi_Shura said: The fanservice/nudity in Kill la Kill are "supposedly" essential to its themes of women empowerment and objectification but it already contradicted itself when Senketsu forced himself on Ryuko despite the latter's obvious defiance and discomfort and even if we ignore that fact, those themes only lasted for like a few episodes in the beginning as it started taking itself seriously later which made most of the nudity just pure fanservice with nothing hidden beneath it. It's just a whimsical and wacky show with lots of fanservice, extremely stylistic and sometimes cheap animation and wasted themes. Even as a fan of fanservice, I found it too painful and uncomfortable to watch it past episode 1. |
| Fanservice hurts any anime where the plot is expected to be taken seriously. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| It's the classic "depend" - to the context of viewers and how thing's implied in the story - |
 la critique de l'intention pure |
| In Kill la Kill fanservice is used excessively as part of the symbolism as themes the show was addressing, while also being there to be enjoyed by the less cerebral viewers. To me that's ideal. It's fun on the surface but it's there for a purpose and not just for pandering, although it might attract people who only care about the latter. It can satisfy both people who only care about fanservice and people who look for meaning in what they watch. And everyone in between. In Monogatari the fanservice is used, among other visual techniques, to keep the eye from getting bored while we sit and listen to what's basically an audiobook for the most part. Conversations and more conversations, that's what the Monogatari Series is. And the conversations are great and usually a lot of fun and witty and intriguing. At least for me the conversations carry the show. Nisio Isin's dialogues are what I think make the franchise so popular. That in combination with Shinbou's visual style and well executed fanservice to entertain the eye while the characters act out these conversation makes the anime so unique. The fanservice supports the dialogue and writing, not the other way round. For the other shows I don't have such a strong opinion but these two in particular are for me two prime examples of making good use of fanservice and not just using it for the sake of it because it's a mindless way to attract viewers. To me that's the difference between a well executed show with fanservice, and a fanservice show which has no other appeal or purpose (aka most ecchi harem LNs, sadly). The other shows you listed are mostly more in the 'the fanservice came in pretty small doses and/or was just part of the general over-the-top-ness and comedy of the show so I didn't really mind it'. I see neither TTGL nor Gunbuster nor Yuri Kuma or Evangelion as very fanservice heavy, it's certainly not a core part of the show like in the case of the two I mentioned above. They just have some random scenes and they weren't executed poorly so it didn't bother me, but it also wasn't done in a particularly interesting, creative or meaningful way that added to the show. Well, to be honest you can probably make arguments for the fanservice being there for a purpose outside of 'being fanservice' in Yuri Kuma and Evangelion especially if you interpret the latter as a criticism of Otaku culture and tropes. But I'm not gonna go there. My point is that fanservice, unless you're heavily biased and love it by default (and those people will always exist, even in this thread. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that I wouldn't trust them on discerning good ecchi from bad ecchi for someone who doesn't always like fanservice by default since to them it's always automatically an improvement no matter what.), depends on execution like any other aspect of anime. If you don't care or even don't like fanservice the execution becomes vital though and might make the difference between a show being seen as obnoxious or just funny by someone who's neutral or even slightly negative towards fanservice. There are shows whose only purpose is executing fanservice and everything is built around that. You won't like those unless you love fanservice. Then there are shows that just have fanservice but it doesn't dominate the creative process and is just added to the existing story so to say. If badly executed it will usually be annoying if you're not into fanservice by default, but if decent or even well executed usually won't detract from whatever the show is mainly trying to portray or might even make the show slightly more enjoyable from a comedy perspective or whatever, even if the fanservice itself doesn't do anything for you. If it feels like a natural part of the character's sense of humour it's just a small part of the show and usually that's good enough for me to not be bothered by it. And lastly there are shows which give meaning to the fanservice either conceptually and/or within the story or from the directing perspective. There's a multitude of ways to do that but aside from KlK and Monogatari some other examples that come to mind are Golden Boy or Colorful. Of course you can still give meaning to fanservice just so you have an excuse for including a lot of fanservice. You can always debate that for every show in this category, but no matter what the conclusion they at least try and aren't satisfied with solely relying on fanservice and not putting any time and energy in any of the other aspects of the show like the majority of ecchi shows. For me that counts enough to put them into their own category no matter what your personal stance on the underlying motivation is. |
AlcoholicideMar 14, 2017 6:26 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| For me fanservice, specially fujo pandering has always degraded the the over-all quality of the series and even completely destroyed at times. Let me take Kyo Kara Maoh as an example. The LNs have quite a lot of deep themes involving politics, wars, betrayal and more. But the anime concentrated on lighter elements adding even more fujo-pandering content loosely based on gaidens and extra stories which were more light-hearted than the main plot. The end result is that now only fujoshits are attracted to the series which makes the overall situation even worse with all their shipping, hate and flaming. The author kept on repeating herself that the series is not shounen-ai let alone yaoi and the MC would not end up with anyone but it was of no use. After a long hiatus, looks like even she and the other creators have given in to the fans and being completely focusing on fujo-pandering in whatever new content comes out, the musical and manga adaptations were literally horrible, they have completely abandoned the original concepts and destroyed the story as well as characters which they had slowly built over the past 10 years all for the sake of fan-service. And did I even mention that the fujos are making a huge deal out of it even though max to max what they got in the manga was holding hands and a hug in the anime? How I hate fujoshits Even where other series are concerned, fan-service really puts me off irrespective of the content. |
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| If the themes is about pantsu, oppai and imoutos, I think it is the opposite of what you trying to point out. |
| If you want something deadly serious without any kind of fanservice/pandering then I suggest you switch to more serious medium. |
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Pullman said: lol this part reminds me of this comicIn Kill la Kill fanservice is used excessively as part of the symbolism as themes the show was addressing, while also being there to be enjoyed by the less cerebral viewers. To me that's ideal. It's fun on the surface but it's there for a purpose and not just for pandering, although it might attract people who only care about the latter. It can satisfy both people who only care about fanservice and people who look for meaning in what they watch. And everyone in between.  |
romagiaMar 14, 2017 7:51 AM
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romagia said: Pullman said: lol this part reminds me of this comicIn Kill la Kill fanservice is used excessively as part of the symbolism as themes the show was addressing, while also being there to be enjoyed by the less cerebral viewers. To me that's ideal. It's fun on the surface but it's there for a purpose and not just for pandering, although it might attract people who only care about the latter. It can satisfy both people who only care about fanservice and people who look for meaning in what they watch. And everyone in between. except both are usually anime fans. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: There's also the opposite camp of heavy bias where one hates it by default.. which might be what op was thinking about when writing the thread title. People who won't watch or rate low those anime, hence "hurting" them.My point is that fanservice, unless you're heavily biased and love it by default (and those people will always exist, even in this thread. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that I wouldn't trust them on discerning good ecchi from bad ecchi for someone who doesn't always like fanservice by default since to them it's always automatically an improvement no matter what.), depends on execution like any other aspect of anime. If you don't care or even don't like fanservice the execution becomes vital though and might make the difference between a show being seen as obnoxious or just funny by someone who's neutral or even slightly negative towards fanservice. |
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romagia said: Pullman said: There's also the opposite camp of heavy bias where one hates it by default.. which might be what op was thinking about when writing the thread title. People who won't watch or rate low those anime, hence "hurting" them.My point is that fanservice, unless you're heavily biased and love it by default (and those people will always exist, even in this thread. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just that I wouldn't trust them on discerning good ecchi from bad ecchi for someone who doesn't always like fanservice by default since to them it's always automatically an improvement no matter what.), depends on execution like any other aspect of anime. If you don't care or even don't like fanservice the execution becomes vital though and might make the difference between a show being seen as obnoxious or just funny by someone who's neutral or even slightly negative towards fanservice. Well of course bias goes either way but I thought we were trying to talk about how fanservice can hurt shows from a neutral perspective so neither the people who always hate nor the people who always love it are particularly relevant in my considerations. People with irrational biases that allow for no exception and make them unable to make any meaningful distinctions only 'hurt' themselves in my opinion (in case of negative bias, positive bias probably hurts noone). I get your interpretation of 'hurting' a show but I think it's far-fetched and if OP was indeed going for that I have to disagree. Hurting a show's popularity and hurting the show itself (aka making it worse) are different things. Not that we can't argue about the influence of fanservice on popularity too, I'd just have phrased it differently than OP did if that was his intention. To some degree fanservice will always hurt the popularity, as will the absence of fanservice. It's hard to discern which has a bigger effect on hybrid shows like some of the ones that have been mentioned. Would TTGL be more popular without any fanservice, with more fanservice, or just as it is? I think the shows OP mentioned are all fairly well balanced so I'd wager they would be less popular if they leaned more towards either end of the spectrum but there's really no way we can tell for sure. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Shows that have characters exist for no reason other than to show off their character design don't have "strong themes". |
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Pullman said: In Kill la Kill fanservice is used excessively as part of the symbolism as themes the show was addressing, while also being there to be enjoyed by the less cerebral viewers. To me that's ideal. It's fun on the surface but it's there for a purpose and not just for pandering, although it might attract people who only care about the latter. It can satisfy both people who only care about fanservice and people who look for meaning in what they watch. And everyone in between. In Monogatari the fanservice is used, among other visual techniques, to keep the eye from getting bored while we sit and listen to what's basically an audiobook for the most part. Conversations and more conversations, that's what the Monogatari Series is. And the conversations are great and usually a lot of fun and witty and intriguing. At least for me the conversations carry the show. Nisio Isin's dialogues are what I think make the franchise so popular. That in combination with Shinbou's visual style and well executed fanservice to entertain the eye while the characters act out these conversation makes the anime so unique. The fanservice supports the dialogue and writing, not the other way round. Hear hear. Wisdom speaks. If a show is based on fanservice (ecchi/harem shows) I am ok with them too. I just don't like to watch them if there is nothing special to it. That is why also I think Kill la Kill and Monogatari are great examples for this topic. As for popularity I just don't care. You can always show a scene from Bible Black or BnP and people can judge the all shows based on that. If they don't want to watch because of that said scene oh well his loss. |
| I am another one of those people that doesn't really like unnecesarry fanservice shots. If it is well-placed and seems natural, it's okay. but, if it is forced, then i hated it. Fanservice doesn't really have to fall on the genre ecchi anime, it can exist in almost entire anime, especially the one with strong themes. After all, let's not deny our natural urge to see our favourite character showing skins one or two times. But, if it is forced, or sometimes out of place, then it's better not to put it at all. |
| It's time to play the Game folks! |
| > Do you think fan service hurts anime that are also trying to portray strong themes? I find the "come for the fanservice, stay for the [whatever the theme of the show is]" formula to be a very good idea. There is no meaning in making a wise show if the people aren't going to watch it. (by the way, "fanservice" in this formula need not be the sexual kind. Cool battles work too.) MortalMelancholy said: Fanservice hurts any anime where the plot is expected to be taken seriously. Is the plot really expected to be taken seriously? Is the plot really meant to loom so grimly that there is no time for jokes and fanservice? Will this not prevent the viewer from thinking freely about the themes? Is the person who can't take his mind away from some bouncing breasts really smart enough to piece together something as complicated as Occultic;Nine? |
| Here we go again. And Fujos think talking about gay anime in a negative light was bigger than this? Pfft....get on my level Fujos....these threads are waaaay more common. @OP....it's a cartoon, I don't give a fuck about the message. If I enjoy it, that's all that matters.....whether I'm enjoying it for the story, or because I want to watch sexy anime girls behave like Thirsty bitches. |
| NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO PLEASE DON'T BRING THESE THREADS BACK!!!, I BURIED THEM 6 FEET UNDER LAST YEAR, DON'T DO IT anyway NO... ecchi has been a part of anime since the beginning, just because we are still stuck in this stupid primitive mindset that sexual pandering is bad doesn't mean it "hurts" anything if you are "distracted" by the fact that a character has big boobs, i have some advice: GET SOME SELF CONTROL... its not that difficult to pay attention to whats going on just because you see a characters panties for some of us it makes the show more entertaining, why? because sexy body parts = more attractive character, plus its just adding something people like to something people already like, hence a bonus "cheap tactics" are used EVERYWHERE, EVERY DAY to get us into things, i don't see why its bad when its sexual theres NOTHING wrong with perversion, we need to stop acting like its a just this thing only belongs in certain places now OP, name me a "serious show" that has sexual fanservice, and don't you dare say HoTD, AGK, Taboo Tattoo, or any show that is constantly trying to make you laugh... im talking shows like Pyscho Pass, Another, Madoka Magica, those shows are are nothing bad serious all around a show like Code Geass i only consider 1/2 serious there are no serious shows that shove fanservice in your face @JustALEX please... not this shit again |
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| Fan service never hurt anything, anyone, anywhere, anytime. |
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| Yeah, fanservice pretty much destroys anime. Panty shots should be illegal |
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Swagernator said: Fan service never hurt anything, anyone, anywhere, anytime. But... It hurts my eyes though. A lot. |
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flannan said: > Do you think fan service hurts anime that are also trying to portray strong themes? I find the "come for the fanservice, stay for the [whatever the theme of the show is]" formula to be a very good idea. There is no meaning in making a wise show if the people aren't going to watch it. (by the way, "fanservice" in this formula need not be the sexual kind. Cool battles work too.) MortalMelancholy said: Fanservice hurts any anime where the plot is expected to be taken seriously. Is the plot really expected to be taken seriously? Is the plot really meant to loom so grimly that there is no time for jokes and fanservice? Will this not prevent the viewer from thinking freely about the themes? Is the person who can't take his mind away from some bouncing breasts really smart enough to piece together something as complicated as Occultic;Nine? There is a time and place for everything, but don't pretend Occultic;Nine had any merit to it... And please stop trolling me in particular =( |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| when are people going to understand that just because a show has drama, sad moments, gore, violence, destruction, death, apocalyptic themes, etc DOES NOT mean the show is supposed to be serious? Barnald said: Swagernator said: Fan service never hurt anything, anyone, anywhere, anytime. But... It hurts my eyes though. A lot. oh does it? wtf is this then? XD  |
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EcchiLordMamster said: when are people going to understand that just because a show has drama, sad moments, gore, violence, destruction, death, apocalyptic themes, etc DOES NOT mean the show is supposed to be serious? oh does it? wtf is this then? XD I have no idea how it got there, officer. I'm telling the truth |
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Barnald said: Swagernator said: Fan service never hurt anything, anyone, anywhere, anytime. But... It hurts my eyes though. A lot. This coming from a Monogatari fan? C'mon fam, stop trolling! |
Ecchi hurts my belief in gender equality. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| I think about where anime would be without all the glorious fanservice that it provides! Probably still stuck in the 70s and 80s showing nothing but Giant Robot anime and shitty kids shows. Thank god for Fanservice and ecchi! God Bless that Perverted Island Nation!  |
I'm not trolling, baka. Ecchi should be forbidden |
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JustALEX said: I think about where anime would be without all the glorious fanservice that it provides! Probably still stuck in the 70s and 80s showing nothing but Giant Robot anime and shitty kids shows. awe man are there some 80s anime i need to show you LOOOOOOLLLL |
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| People are too harsh on OPs opinion, I don't think his post portrays the ''fanservice is bad''-kind that is seen hundreds of times. It's more of the question of at what moment in a show that has a strong message shouldn't fanservice be used. And I agree, seperating these two aspects is something I do like. I rather have a comedy beach episode and when it's serious time then focus on the portrayal of an important message with symbolism and depth. JustALEX said: @OP....it's a cartoon, I don't give a fuck about the message. If I enjoy it, that's all that matters.....whether I'm enjoying it for the story, or because I want to watch sexy anime girls behave like Thirsty bitches. So you're not a fan of strong messages and more of a light-hearted anime watcher? Because I've seen your profile (sorry for stalking) and you have some shows that do focus on message & depth. Or are you just trying to say enjoyment > having a message? Because I agree on that one. |
JustALEX said: I think about where anime would be without all the glorious fanservice that it provides!Probably still stuck in the 70s and 80s showing nothing but Giant Robot anime and shitty kids shows. Giant robot anime is also a kind of fanservice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-BmKFgJJog (why do my links never work?) Just not the same kind. |
AzurblauMar 14, 2017 10:41 AM
| no not really it only hurts if the person in question doesn't like fanservice which is just their problem then I didn't care they had lots of pantie shots of Shana at the end of season 1  just like I didn't care they didn't do any pantie shots in the last episode of season 3 |
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BlueBlack37 said: (why do my links never work?) Mm, take it and do this: [ yt ] n-BmKFgJJog [ /yt ] and not [ yt ] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-BmKFgJJog [ /yt ] Spaces removed, of course. The very last part of the link is what you need to put in, the jumble of stuff after the "=" sign. Lookie: I only figured this out recently, I had the same problem for a while xP |
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Deknijff said: no not really it only hurts if the person in question doesn't like fanservice which is just their problem then I didn't care they had lots of pantie shots of Shana at the end of season 1 just like I didn't care they didn't do any pantie shots in the last episode of season 3 i marathoned Shana back in early to mid 2009... COMPLETELY FORGOT the anime had pantyshots... holy shit, then again, that was nearly 8 years ago lol ofc once again, a thread where OP posts then disappears :/ please explain what is wrong with pandering? we're pandered to everywhere everyday, its impossible not to pander sexuality drives human nature, ofc its one of the most common/if not the most common form of pandering, wtf is wrong with that? i've said 100x times, the issue people have with sexual pandering is the fact that we have an inherently negatively outlook on it. if NO ONE was bothered ever by the site of boobs or ass, then this wouldn't be an issue, but no matter what it is, magazines, music videos, theres always going to be people who act as though sexy for the sake of being sexy is a problem are we going to have to all start walking around naked for people to become completely desensitized and stop complaining? many if our reaction to sexual pandering wasn't "perversion just to be perversion is bad" then maybe people wouldn't be "distracted" by fanservice, we'd just accept that as humans we like sexy things no matter where they show up |
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EcchiLordMamster said: not surprising you don't remember then Deknijff said: i marathoned Shana back in early to mid 2009... COMPLETELY FORGOT the anime had pantyshots... holy shit, then again, that was nearly 8 years ago lolno not really it only hurts if the person in question doesn't like fanservice which is just their problem then I didn't care they had lots of pantie shots of Shana at the end of season 1 just like I didn't care they didn't do any pantie shots in the last episode of season 3 but could also be the fact that it was too tame for you to even notice it in the first place :P |
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EcchiLordMamster said: i've said 100x times, the issue people have with sexual pandering is the fact that we have an inherently negatively outlook on it. if NO ONE was bothered ever by the site of boobs or ass, then this wouldn't be an issue, but no matter what it is, magazines, music videos, theres always going to be people who act as though sexy for the sake of being sexy is a problem are we going to have to all start walking around naked for people to become completely desensitized and stop complaining? many if our reaction to sexual pandering wasn't "perversion just to be perversion is bad" then maybe people wouldn't be "distracted" by fanservice, we'd just accept that as humans we like sexy things no matter where they show up While I do agree with almost everything you said I also think that fanservice can distract and should be used in the correct situation (which you probably also think). The question is which situation is ok and which is not. I think most will agree that in a sad funeral scene there should be no panty shot. And while sexual drive is natural our society has set up rules & norms, many of those are arbitrarily, some have a stronger purpose. People definitely care to much about potrayal of sexuality. Talking about what's perverse in a society is a pretty big topic, maybe for a whole new thread. |
JustALEX said: Here we go again. And Fujos think talking about gay anime in a negative light was bigger than this? Pfft....get on my level Fujos....these threads are waaaay more common. @OP....it's a cartoon, I don't give a fuck about the message. If I enjoy it, that's all that matters.....whether I'm enjoying it for the story, or because I want to watch sexy anime girls behave like Thirsty bitches. I never asked you :c you don't have to be mean about it. |
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OP said: JustALEX said: Here we go again. And Fujos think talking about gay anime in a negative light was bigger than this? Pfft....get on my level Fujos....these threads are waaaay more common. @OP....it's a cartoon, I don't give a fuck about the message. If I enjoy it, that's all that matters.....whether I'm enjoying it for the story, or because I want to watch sexy anime girls behave like Thirsty bitches. I never asked you :c you don't have to be mean about it. Dude you need to change your name....lol! |
15poundfish said: What I mean are shows that have fan service but also portray deeper themes underneath the surface level that might be subtle or direct. Some examples that a viewer might be aware of are like Kill la kill, the fanservice is a major part of what kill la kill is trying to express, *the* major part*. that's the worst example possible. Gurren Lagann, not even in the slightest, it's over the top in every way imaginable, the shirtless Yoko and Kamina fits right in. If anything there's far less fanservice than expected, since it's "over the top: the anime". Evangelion, etc. rebuild? maybe. evangelion? noooo. Unless you mean the exploding Rei clones if that's somehow meant to be appealing. edit: evanlegion has alot of "sexual fanservice", none of which is *meant* to be "Service" for "fans". At least I hope not Anno! On the other hand, shows like Evangelion ham fist fan service with nudity inspection episodes, thermal expansions, generic rom com humor, etc. Wasn't thermal expansion just foreshadowing for the Sandalphon fight? How can you view Evanlegion as a rom com knowing it's ending lol It's the most NOT romantic series ever. |
ashfrliebertMar 14, 2017 11:15 AM
| ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴロゴロゴロ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ ゴゴゴゴゴゴ |
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