| What do you think about it? Does creating a one gender cast automatically make it a show to cater the audience? |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
| I don't really know any anime with a female-only cast and the only male-only cast anime I've seen is Hunter x Hunter. |
| ^this tbqh fam and until we see human furniture anime it will stay like that |
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| Why would it? If they're all the same gender then they're generally equal with each other and therefore no objectifying occurs. They are fully functional humans and are definitely not object nor are they treated like they are. Pillow Boys is anthropomorphism which is the opposite and includes an all male cast. |
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| My god. Tsuritami, Non-non biyori, Aria, Amanchu, Kimi to Boku, K-On You need to watch SoLs, OP. |
| Thats not true at-all .. Look at JoJos Bizairre Adventure.. |
"They say that if you change yourself, you'll change the world, but that's a complete lie. They're just forcing you to compromise by feeding you a convenient little fib. Let me show you how to really change the world." -Hikigaya Hachiman |
azoth212 said: What do you think about it? Does creating a one gender cast automatically make it a show to cater the audience? 1) I think you do not understand what "objectification" means. Well, it's a hard-to-grasp concept, so it's not unusual. Objectification is about treating a person as an object. For example, a dragon kidnaps a princess, a knight rescues her, and the king offers the princess's hand in marriage to the knight. And nobody asks the princess what she thinks about it. What an objectified person lacks (at least in the mind of one who objectifies) is agency - ability to think, make decisions and realize them on his/her own. Note that real life people have varying amounts of agency, but it's really rare to have none, and full agency is just as rare. (Nietzsche's ubermench is defined by full agency, if I understand it right) Usually in one-gender-cast shows, many people of that gender have agency. They kick ass, make friends, strive towards their goals... 2) Yes, many shows with one-gender-cast are intended to be seen by the opposite gender. Others are not: sports anime are usually meant for boys (but girls watch them for the good-looking boys), mahou shoujo anime are usually meant for girls (but boys watch them for the good-looking girls), oldschool battle anime like Jojo are usually meant for boys... 3) Shows cater to audiences. That's what shows do. Whether it's LoGH, SAO or Boku no Piko, they all have an idea of what their audience is, and what it wants, and give it out. It's only the "experimental" shows that cater to animators. |
flannan said: Does that also count for near one gender shows like harems and shows like bikini warriors? Thanks for enlightening me.azoth212 said: What do you think about it? Does creating a one gender cast automatically make it a show to cater the audience? 1) I think you do not understand what "objectification" means. Well, it's a hard-to-grasp concept, so it's not unusual. Objectification is about treating a person as an object. For example, a dragon kidnaps a princess, a knight rescues her, and the king offers the princess's hand in marriage to the knight. And nobody asks the princess what she thinks about it. What an objectified person lacks (at least in the mind of one who objectifies) is agency - ability to think, make decisions and realize them on his/her own. Note that real life people have varying amounts of agency, but it's really rare to have none, and full agency is just as rare. (Nietzsche's ubermench is defined by full agency, if I understand it right) Usually in one-gender-cast shows, many people of that gender have agency. They kick ass, make friends, strive towards their goals... 2) Yes, many shows with one-gender-cast are intended to be seen by the opposite gender. Others are not: sports anime are usually meant for boys (but girls watch them for the good-looking boys), mahou shoujo anime are usually meant for girls (but boys watch them for the good-looking girls), oldschool battle anime like Jojo are usually meant for boys... 3) Shows cater to audiences. That's what shows do. Whether it's LoGH, SAO or Boku no Piko, they all have an idea of what their audience is, and what it wants, and give it out. It's only the "experimental" shows that cater to animators. |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
azoth212 said: Does that also count for near one gender shows like harems and shows like bikini warriors? Thanks for enlightening me. I do like to mention that it's fundamentally impossible to have a one-gender straight harem. Yeah... But not every one gender show is purely for objectification. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| If you want to do serious analysis of what counts as objectification, you should analyse each individual example case by case, it's usually bad to generalize for genres and cast. |
BurningSpirit said: Near one gender = only 1 or 2 males in a cast full of females.azoth212 said: Does that also count for near one gender shows like harems and shows like bikini warriors? Thanks for enlightening me. I do like to mention that it's fundamentally impossible to have a one-gender straight harem. Yeah... But not every one gender show is purely for objectification. |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
azoth212 said: flannan said: Does that also count for near one gender shows like harems and shows like bikini warriors? Thanks for enlightening me.1) I think you do not understand what "objectification" means. Well, it's a hard-to-grasp concept, so it's not unusual. Objectification is about treating a person as an object. For example, a dragon kidnaps a princess, a knight rescues her, and the king offers the princess's hand in marriage to the knight. And nobody asks the princess what she thinks about it. What an objectified person lacks (at least in the mind of one who objectifies) is agency - ability to think, make decisions and realize them on his/her own. Note that real life people have varying amounts of agency, but it's really rare to have none, and full agency is just as rare. (Nietzsche's ubermench is defined by full agency, if I understand it right) Usually in one-gender-cast shows, many people of that gender have agency. They kick ass, make friends, strive towards their goals... 2) Yes, many shows with one-gender-cast are intended to be seen by the opposite gender. Others are not: sports anime are usually meant for boys (but girls watch them for the good-looking boys), mahou shoujo anime are usually meant for girls (but boys watch them for the good-looking girls), oldschool battle anime like Jojo are usually meant for boys... 3) Shows cater to audiences. That's what shows do. Whether it's LoGH, SAO or Boku no Piko, they all have an idea of what their audience is, and what it wants, and give it out. It's only the "experimental" shows that cater to animators. Harems vary. Sometimes they're about a bunch of girls molesting a MC (and thus the harem girls have agency, and the MC doesn't). Sometimes they're about a guy helping out a bunch of girls who seem unable to solve their problems on their own (and thus MC has agency, and the harem girls don't) - if these are not handled with care, they can be objectifying. Sometimes everybody seems to just coast along, swept by the author's jokes. And many cases are in-between. Saijaku Muhai no Bahamut is memorable in that one of the girls - the foreigner one - had unusually high amount of agency for a harem girl. On the other hand, in Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry, the female lead had a lot less agency than she should have, given her background and personality. Bikini Warriors is a straightforward example of one-gender-cast shows where the cast has agency. Not enough agency to actually get an outfit that covers them up, but they still get to be the heroes (and villains, as in the pot-breaking episode) on their own. |
| It's an insult of the highest caliber to anime. I automatically drop every anime which doesn't feature at least 1 person of color, 1 third-gender trannie, 1 big-boned lady, 1 race-mixing single mom, 1 peaceful arab muslim, 1 lesbian with cyclamen hair, 1 liberal hipster with square glasses, or features more than 1 fucking white male. |
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flannan said: So, basically as long as they aren't background characters with zero backstory it's not objectification? My definition of "objectification" is a character that's made deliberately to be jerked off to, in shows where females are oversexualized to the point of becoming part of a borderline porn which is revolting to my eyes. Whether they have background, agency or whatnot barely matters as long as the point of that character is increasing the sales, it demonstrates that the authors didn't firmly believe in their show, and they had to resort to cheap methods to attract the attention of the public.azoth212 said: Does that also count for near one gender shows like harems and shows like bikini warriors? Thanks for enlightening me. Harems vary. Sometimes they're about a bunch of girls molesting a MC (and thus the harem girls have agency, and the MC doesn't). Sometimes they're about a guy helping out a bunch of girls who seem unable to solve their problems on their own (and thus MC has agency, and the harem girls don't) - if these are not handled with care, they can be objectifying. Sometimes everybody seems to just coast along, swept by the author's jokes. And many cases are in-between. Saijaku Muhai no Bahamut is memorable in that one of the girls - the foreigner one - had unusually high amount of agency for a harem girl. On the other hand, in Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry, the female lead had a lot less agency than she should have, given her background and personality. Bikini Warriors is a straightforward example of one-gender-cast shows where the cast has agency. Not enough agency to actually get an outfit that covers them up, but they still get to be the heroes (and villains, as in the pot-breaking episode) on their own. |
azoth212Jan 20, 2017 3:22 AM
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
Aquamirror said: exactly! we also need to add a lot of female guards and soldiers in middle age europe and african-'american' nazi in german army in video games!It's an insult of the highest caliber to anime. I automatically drop every anime which doesn't feature at least 1 person of color, 1 third-gender trannie, 1 big-boned lady, 1 race-mixing single mom, 1 peaceful arab muslim, 1 lesbian with cyclamen hair, 1 liberal hipster with square glasses, or features more than 1 fucking white male. ... they actually did |
Cross  AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
azoth212 said: flannan said: So, basically as long as they aren't background characters with zero backstory it's not objectification? My definition of "objectification" is a character that's made deliberately to be jerked off to, in shows where females are oversexualized to the point of becoming part of a borderline porn which is revolting to my eyes. Whether they have background, agency or whatnot barely matters as long as the point of that character is increasing the sales, it demonstrates that the authors didn't firmly believe in their show, and they had to resort to cheap methods to attract the attention of the public.Harems vary. Sometimes they're about a bunch of girls molesting a MC (and thus the harem girls have agency, and the MC doesn't). Sometimes they're about a guy helping out a bunch of girls who seem unable to solve their problems on their own (and thus MC has agency, and the harem girls don't) - if these are not handled with care, they can be objectifying. Sometimes everybody seems to just coast along, swept by the author's jokes. And many cases are in-between. Saijaku Muhai no Bahamut is memorable in that one of the girls - the foreigner one - had unusually high amount of agency for a harem girl. On the other hand, in Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry, the female lead had a lot less agency than she should have, given her background and personality. Bikini Warriors is a straightforward example of one-gender-cast shows where the cast has agency. Not enough agency to actually get an outfit that covers them up, but they still get to be the heroes (and villains, as in the pot-breaking episode) on their own. That's a pretty narrow definition of objectification, while sexualization is indeed often connected with objectification, they're not inherit to each other. A character that serves only as a tool to move the plot, with no real agency and no nuance in terms of motivation can be considered "objectified" even though there might not be sexualization. And in the same way, it's theoretically possible to have sexualization without objectification, someone was arguing how in a lot of harem anime, the girls have a lot of agency, and though I have not watched it, I've seen people praise Keijo for doing that. |
azoth212 said: flannan said: So, basically as long as they aren't background characters with zero backstory it's not objectification? My definition of "objectification" is a character that's made deliberately to be jerked off to, in shows where females are oversexualized to the point of becoming part of a borderline porn which is revolting to my eyes. Whether they have background, agency or whatnot barely matters as long as the point of that character is increasing the sales, it demonstrates that the authors didn't firmly believe in their show, and they had to resort to cheap methods to attract the attention of the public.Harems vary. Sometimes they're about a bunch of girls molesting a MC (and thus the harem girls have agency, and the MC doesn't). Sometimes they're about a guy helping out a bunch of girls who seem unable to solve their problems on their own (and thus MC has agency, and the harem girls don't) - if these are not handled with care, they can be objectifying. Sometimes everybody seems to just coast along, swept by the author's jokes. And many cases are in-between. Saijaku Muhai no Bahamut is memorable in that one of the girls - the foreigner one - had unusually high amount of agency for a harem girl. On the other hand, in Rakudai Kishi no Cavalry, the female lead had a lot less agency than she should have, given her background and personality. Bikini Warriors is a straightforward example of one-gender-cast shows where the cast has agency. Not enough agency to actually get an outfit that covers them up, but they still get to be the heroes (and villains, as in the pot-breaking episode) on their own. In my opinion, fanservice is not objectification by itself. Objectification is when the character becomes less than a person as a result. For example, a stereotypical princess can be properly dressed (and stay this way), and not be particularly sexy, but if her role in the story remains "something the villain stole that we're going to take back", it's objectification. Now, you can dislike fanservice for other reasons (both related to feminism and not), but it's always a good idea to call things with proper names. I also dislike the "no confidence in one's work, so adding fanservice to increase the sales" argument. If a work has a whole lot of fanservice (as opposed to a couple of pantyshots in 24 episodes), you can be sure that it was intended this way from the start. Most likely, because the author is a pervert who likes it this way. All those people on the internet who draw ecchi and hentai pictures of anime characters are not doing it for fame or money, you know. (well, occasionally you can see an artist who takes commissions, but even they usually draw a lot of non-commissioned works for fun) You know what? People who want to see a lot of sexy women in their entertainment deserve to have works made for them too. |
Out_SiN said: Agency is a given since females are the only characters of the show, that's why I don't care that much. On the other hand, if a show intends to attract super hormonal otaku teens, now that's what I call "objectification", they're reduced to objects from a point of view because the producers rely on the fact that perverted kids are going to buy the show. Would anybody care about the agency of the characters in hdxd? Would anybody buy high school of the dead because of the agency? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.azoth212 said: So, basically as long as they aren't background characters with zero backstory it's not objectification? My definition of "objectification" is a character that's made deliberately to be jerked off to, in shows where females are oversexualized to the point of becoming part of a borderline porn which is revolting to my eyes. Whether they have background, agency or whatnot barely matters as long as the point of that character is increasing the sales, it demonstrates that the authors didn't firmly believe in their show, and they had to resort to cheap methods to attract the attention of the public. That's a pretty narrow definition of objectification, while sexualization is indeed often connected with objectification, they're not inherit to each other. A character that serves only as a tool to move the plot, with no real agency and no nuance in terms of motivation can be considered "objectified" even though there might not be sexualization. And in the same way, it's theoretically possible to have sexualization without objectification, someone was arguing how in a lot of harem anime, the girls have a lot of agency, and though I have not watched it, I've seen people praise Keijo for doing that. |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
flannan said: azoth212 said: What do you think about it? Does creating a one gender cast automatically make it a show to cater the audience? 1) I think you do not understand what "objectification" means. Well, it's a hard-to-grasp concept, so it's not unusual. Objectification is about treating a person as an object. For example, a dragon kidnaps a princess, a knight rescues her, and the king offers the princess's hand in marriage to the knight. And nobody asks the princess what she thinks about it. What an objectified person lacks (at least in the mind of one who objectifies) is agency - ability to think, make decisions and realize them on his/her own. Note that real life people have varying amounts of agency, but it's really rare to have none, and full agency is just as rare. (Nietzsche's ubermench is defined by full agency, if I understand it right) Usually in one-gender-cast shows, many people of that gender have agency. They kick ass, make friends, strive towards their goals... 2) Yes, many shows with one-gender-cast are intended to be seen by the opposite gender. Others are not: sports anime are usually meant for boys (but girls watch them for the good-looking boys), mahou shoujo anime are usually meant for girls (but boys watch them for the good-looking girls), oldschool battle anime like Jojo are usually meant for boys... 3) Shows cater to audiences. That's what shows do. Whether it's LoGH, SAO or Boku no Piko, they all have an idea of what their audience is, and what it wants, and give it out. It's only the "experimental" shows that cater to animators. I couldn't have said it better. But SJW's make people today believe that big boobs, sexy poses, skin exposure, fanservice = objectification, and things like that. Such are the times we live in, unfortunately. |
| Signature? I ain't got no signature! I don't need no signature! I don't have to show you any stinkin' signature! |
| I'm no SJW, but what I'm trying to say is that fanservice is indeed objectification. When you watch porn or erotic movies, do you care about whether the characters have some authority or not? Exactly, they become the objects of your desires, you don't give a damn about what they are, you're just there to see them have sex. The same happens with fanservice, it's made on purpose to cater to the desires of perverts and increase the sales, so how is that any different from objectification? |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
azoth212 said: Out_SiN said: Agency is a given since females are the only characters of the show, that's why I don't care that much. On the other hand, if a show intends to attract super hormonal otaku teens, now that's what I call "objectification", they're reduced to objects from a point of view because the producers rely on the fact that perverted kids are going to buy the show. Would anybody care about the agency of the characters in hdxd? Would anybody buy high school of the dead because of the agency? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.That's a pretty narrow definition of objectification, while sexualization is indeed often connected with objectification, they're not inherit to each other. A character that serves only as a tool to move the plot, with no real agency and no nuance in terms of motivation can be considered "objectified" even though there might not be sexualization. And in the same way, it's theoretically possible to have sexualization without objectification, someone was arguing how in a lot of harem anime, the girls have a lot of agency, and though I have not watched it, I've seen people praise Keijo for doing that. The argument doesn't go like that. If somebody wants to make a show for the "hormonal otaku teens", sure there will be sexy girls inside. It's pretty damn hard to say that it's inherently bad! (unless you're starting with the statement that men are inherently evil) The "objectification" argument is about how the sexy girls are treated by the story. Are they the reward for a MC who has done well? Are they things to be taken by our amoral barbarian hero? Are they people who the viewer gets to care about? Do they have life outside their interactions with the man? Are they the main characters? |
flannan said: As I said, I'm pretty sure almost nobody would watch an ecchi or a hentai to find out about whether the characters have a life or not, just like for porn, you'd only watch it because there are attractive and sexy girls in it, the authors are aware it's a major selling point, so they don't think twice before excluding the possibility of reducing the amount of fanservice. Since the very beginning, a large presence of fanservice or characters with overly revealing outfits already seem to scream that the authors barely put any major effort in it. Fanservicey anime are exactly like that, they're the most ephemeral kind of shows because as soon as another anime of the same sort comes out, the previous ones will be instantly forgotten.azoth212 said: Agency is a given since females are the only characters of the show, that's why I don't care that much. On the other hand, if a show intends to attract super hormonal otaku teens, now that's what I call "objectification", they're reduced to objects from a point of view because the producers rely on the fact that perverted kids are going to buy the show. Would anybody care about the agency of the characters in hdxd? Would anybody buy high school of the dead because of the agency? That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. The argument doesn't go like that. If somebody wants to make a show for the "hormonal otaku teens", sure there will be sexy girls inside. It's pretty damn hard to say that it's inherently bad! (unless you're starting with the statement that men are inherently evil) The "objectification" argument is about how the sexy girls are treated by the story. Are they the reward for a MC who has done well? Are they things to be taken by our amoral barbarian hero? Are they people who the viewer gets to care about? Do they have life outside their interactions with the man? Are they the main characters? |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
| I have a threeeeeaaaaddd.. i have a shitpoooossstttt... ugh... shitpost threeeeeaaaaadddddd.. 1. NO 2. who gives a shit even if it was? 3. theyre not real... stop treating them like they are 4. you SJW's really are taking over -___- @JustAlex |
EcchiGodMamsterJan 20, 2017 4:39 AM
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azoth212 said: so what? what's your point? i love jacking off to sexy grillsI'm no SJW, but what I'm trying to say is that fanservice is indeed objectification. When you watch porn or erotic movies, do you care about whether the characters have some authority or not? Exactly, they become the objects of your desires, you don't give a damn about what they are, you're just there to see them have sex. The same happens with fanservice, it's made on purpose to cater to the desires of perverts and increase the sales, so how is that any different from objectification? |
Cross AngeHey guys check my profile for current airing season anime recommendation (guaranteed best taste) |
GangsterCat said: Frankly, I could care less about you jerking off to non existent girls, but I just pointed out that those characters you're jerking off to are made purposely to cater one's desires and I seriously doubt people would care about them otherwise.azoth212 said: so what? what's your point? i love jacking off to sexy grillsI'm no SJW, but what I'm trying to say is that fanservice is indeed objectification. When you watch porn or erotic movies, do you care about whether the characters have some authority or not? Exactly, they become the objects of your desires, you don't give a damn about what they are, you're just there to see them have sex. The same happens with fanservice, it's made on purpose to cater to the desires of perverts and increase the sales, so how is that any different from objectification? EcchiLordMamster said: I have a threeeeeaaaaddd.. i have a shitpoooossstttt... ugh... shitpost threeeeeaaaaadddddd.. 1. NO 2. who gives a shit even if it was? 3. theyre not real... stop treating them like they are 4. you SJW's really are taking over -___- @JustAlex So as long as something isn't real, you can oversexualize a gender in a show and objectify it ? |
azoth212Jan 20, 2017 4:56 AM
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
azoth212 said: an all cast if made to cater to the opposite genderWhat do you think about it? Does creating a one gender cast automatically make it a show to cater the audience? examples..... k on, kinmoza are all girls cgdct for men. since I am not a fag or a shojo, havent watched any all male cast shows, although, I watched one rev harem and didnt quite like it. brothers conflict. i havent seen it but read abt yuri on ice on mal.... and while I know harems are meant for men, i'd rather watch them in actual hentai than echhi shows so I dont watch them. so the simplest answer is yes. |
azoth212 said: So as long as something isn't real, you can oversexualize a gender in a show and objectify it ? YES as long as its not real you can show whatever the fuck you want to yes... WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO rape torture mutilation pedophilia necrophilia gore WHATEVER, i don't care, and no one should no one is being harmed by fiction, just because some ppl get butthurt over it doesn't mean its harming anyone fictional characters can be drawn however the artist chooses, and chances are the artist is going to make them as attractive as possible, and guess what? anime characters are cute/sexy, deal with it, so duh theyre going to continue to be drawn sexy. its not like they can care anyway and our world gets safer every year, so don't give me that "it makes people do this" bullshit, cause it doesn't |
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azoth212 said: flannan said: As I said, I'm pretty sure almost nobody would watch an ecchi or a hentai to find out about whether the characters have a life or not, just like for porn, you'd only watch it because there are attractive and sexy girls in it, the authors are aware it's a major selling point, so they don't think twice before excluding the possibility of reducing the amount of fanservice. Since the very beginning, a large presence of fanservice or characters with overly revealing outfits already seem to scream that the authors barely put any major effort in it. Fanservicey anime are exactly like that, they're the most ephemeral kind of shows because as soon as another anime of the same sort comes out, the previous ones will be instantly forgotten.The argument doesn't go like that. If somebody wants to make a show for the "hormonal otaku teens", sure there will be sexy girls inside. It's pretty damn hard to say that it's inherently bad! (unless you're starting with the statement that men are inherently evil) The "objectification" argument is about how the sexy girls are treated by the story. Are they the reward for a MC who has done well? Are they things to be taken by our amoral barbarian hero? Are they people who the viewer gets to care about? Do they have life outside their interactions with the man? Are they the main characters? Okay, you've done it. As a trusted lieutenant of @EcchiLordMamster , I will enlighten you on the virtues of ecchi anime! 1) No. Ecchi. Is. Not. Porn. I'm tired of hearing that. That's why we like watching it. It has characters we care about, in ecchi situations. Random anime women in ecchi situations cannot compare. In fact, some of us care about anime characters so much, they declare them waifu. 2) Ecchi is a good advertisement. But all the good ecchi shows have something beside that. Comedy, action, heartwarming - whatever the author wants. Did you actually watch Bikini Warriors? They're really funny. At least if you have played fantasy RPGs. Have you seen Strike Witches? They're not just pantyshots in every shot, they're also cool fights, cute girls doing cute things, and a lot of service for military fans too! Come for the ecchi, stay for the plot/comedy/action/whatever! 3) Yes, the authors of ecchi did put a lot of effort into their works. They've built worlds (where every female goes skirtless), developed systems of magic (where clothes-destroying beams are the primary method of attack), designed characters (most of them pretty girls), made complicated plots (which involved armies of robots and demons armed with clothes-destroying beams attacking schools), and in general did no less work than is done is a non-ecchi work of a similar genre. And those of them who are mangaka and artists drew them in a very attractive style. Ecchi manga never looks as ugly as One Piece! 4) Ecchi anime are memorable. I'm still using Najika Blitz Tactics (2001) as an example. |
flannanJan 20, 2017 5:07 AM
azoth212 said: flannan said: As I said, I'm pretty sure almost nobody would watch an ecchi or a hentai to find out about whether the characters have a life or not, just like for porn, you'd only watch it because there are attractive and sexy girls in it, the authors are aware it's a major selling point, so they don't think twice before excluding the possibility of reducing the amount of fanservice. Since the very beginning, a large presence of fanservice or characters with overly revealing outfits already seem to scream that the authors barely put any major effort in it. Fanservicey anime are exactly like that, they're the most ephemeral kind of shows because as soon as another anime of the same sort comes out, the previous ones will be instantly forgotten.The argument doesn't go like that. If somebody wants to make a show for the "hormonal otaku teens", sure there will be sexy girls inside. It's pretty damn hard to say that it's inherently bad! (unless you're starting with the statement that men are inherently evil) The "objectification" argument is about how the sexy girls are treated by the story. Are they the reward for a MC who has done well? Are they things to be taken by our amoral barbarian hero? Are they people who the viewer gets to care about? Do they have life outside their interactions with the man? Are they the main characters? Wow discovering obscure truths, are we? People are attracted towards ecchi anime because of the fanservice, S-H-O-C-K-I-N-G. Yeah, that's the main reason people try these anime out. It's not like fanservice is unwated or negative in any way, so why would the author aim to reduce it? You're wrong about them being ephemeral, while some definitely are (which is the case with EVERY genre) there are plenty of those which have had their fanbase for years, and will continue to, like aforementioned DxD which has been attracting a huge fanbase since 2008. Also, it's not like making a character appealing with the looks is the wrong way, or worse than idk, giving them a cool personality, and you CAN have both, there are plenty of characters that are both sexy as hell and don't lack in other aspects either. When will people stop throwing a fit over characters being sexy, it's beyond funny at this point |
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azoth212 said: So as long as something isn't real, you can oversexualize a gender in a show and objectify it ? Umm, firstly, even if a character is objectified (although I disagree that making them sexy is objectifying them) that doesn't equal objectifying the whole gender. But still, YES, you can, that's exactly the freedom ficiton and art gives you, to show whatever the fuck you want to. |
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Darek said: @EcchiLordMamster So I take it as I am free to write sado-maso fan-fictions including you and different "elitist" people of MAL? Noted. *starts writing fanfictions* Also no offence m69 but not everyone is an SJW on here, Not that I disagree with you. i'd avoid including names of non public figures who don't want to be included lol m69? |
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EcchiLordMamster said: azoth212 said: So as long as something isn't real, you can oversexualize a gender in a show and objectify it ? YES as long as its not real you can show whatever the fuck you want to yes... WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO rape torture mutilation pedophilia necrophilia gore WHATEVER, i don't care, and no one should no one is being harmed by fiction, just because some ppl get butthurt over it doesn't mean its harming anyone fictional characters can be drawn however the artist chooses, and chances are the artist is going to make them as attractive as possible, and guess what? anime characters are cute/sexy, deal with it, so duh theyre going to continue to be drawn sexy. its not like they can care anyway and our world gets safer every year, so don't give me that "it makes people do this" bullshit, cause it doesn't All of media and fiction is "not real", but every work is still grounded in ideas. Some people, myself included, and also OP (I would assume) are extremely interested in dissecting those ideas, analyzing themes, what things mean, what the work has says and what that implies about the audience. For me, it's a big part of the enjoyment of most shows. So while it's true that rape, torture, pedophilia, etc. in fiction isn't hurting anyone, the mere ideas of those things to some, including OP, is in itself questionable. I'll give in to your position in as much as to say that maybe OP is being too harsh in his value-judging and moralism. To the point where it's unproductive and only serves to alienate people like you who (seemingly) don't care. |
Darek said: EcchiLordMamster said: i'd avoid including names of non public figures who don't want to be included lol m69? I will avoid them and name them guy 1 and guy 2, it is gonna sell well and give me lots of sweet MALdollars M8 is too mainstream for me. unfortunately i won't fap to it as you know i never fap to doujins, nor am i into sado or maso, so sorry man :( OP is in indeed an SJW... as theres absolutely not reason to care that the power of fiction is used to idealize fictional characters the fact that anime guys like in DBZ were super muscular and shit was never something i got "jealous" of... shit, i barely even thought about it, WHO FUCKIN CARES? THAT IS WHATS ATTRACTIVE, why shouldn't people draw fictional characters to be attractive as possible and show of their sex appeal? WHY NOT? Out_SiN said: EcchiLordMamster said: YES as long as its not real you can show whatever the fuck you want to yes... WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO rape torture mutilation pedophilia necrophilia gore WHATEVER, i don't care, and no one should no one is being harmed by fiction, just because some ppl get butthurt over it doesn't mean its harming anyone fictional characters can be drawn however the artist chooses, and chances are the artist is going to make them as attractive as possible, and guess what? anime characters are cute/sexy, deal with it, so duh theyre going to continue to be drawn sexy. its not like they can care anyway and our world gets safer every year, so don't give me that "it makes people do this" bullshit, cause it doesn't All of media and fiction is "not real", but every work is still grounded in ideas. Some people, myself included, and also OP (I would assume) are extremely interested in dissecting those ideas, analyzing themes, what things mean, what the work has says and what that implies about the audience. For me, it's a big part of the enjoyment of most shows. So while it's true that rape, torture, pedophilia, etc. in fiction isn't hurting anyone, the mere ideas of those things to some, including OP, is in itself questionable. I'll give in to your position in as much as to say that maybe OP is being too harsh in his value-judging and moralism. To the point where it's unproductive and only serves to alienate people like you who (seemingly) don't care. having "strange fantasies" is completely normal so obvious its common in fiction all sorts of people are into these kinds of things, theres nothing "different" about it so showing it in ficiton and giving others a platform is 100x better than doing it irl |
EcchiGodMamsterJan 20, 2017 5:35 AM
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| Nope, and I'll add that you can objectify someone with good intention, and vice-versa. It'd be hard to objectify Himemiya more in Utena. Is the show misogynistic? Nope, it's the opposite. |
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| This is the sort of topic that pops up when people are oblivious to what objectification actually is. |
EcchiLordMamster said: azoth212 said: So as long as something isn't real, you can oversexualize a gender in a show and objectify it ? YES as long as its not real you can show whatever the fuck you want to yes... WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO rape torture mutilation pedophilia necrophilia gore WHATEVER, i don't care, and no one should no one is being harmed by fiction, just because some ppl get butthurt over it doesn't mean its harming anyone fictional characters can be drawn however the artist chooses, and chances are the artist is going to make them as attractive as possible, and guess what? anime characters are cute/sexy, deal with it, so duh theyre going to continue to be drawn sexy. its not like they can care anyway and our world gets safer every year, so don't give me that "it makes people do this" bullshit, cause it doesn't This post deserve to be framed on a wall. As for the thread at hand, not necessarily. I don't know many anime with a monogendered cast, but some are close and they aren't objectifying anyone: Berserk is all male except Caska, Death Note is all male except Naomi, Misa and minor characters, Lucky Star has a few minor male characters and Nichijou's only recurring male character is a cat. None of these four objectify their characters. |
Darek said: @EcchiLordMamster there is no reason to anything really. I don't think OP is an SJW, I disagree with him and in the end don't care about his point of view too much but I fail to see how is he an SJW, he is just saying what he thinks, not trying to ban it and shit. why does it even matter then? leme ask OP if you made an anime, what would your characters physically look like? would they be as attractive as you want them to be, or not? if you like big boobs irl, would you give any of your female characters big boobs? and if you like to see boobs jiggle irl, would you make any of the girls boobs jiggle or would you make them like fake implant titties thats have no bounce? im being serious btw |
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AltoRoark said: This is the sort of topic that pops up when people are oblivious to what objectification actually is. I would welcome a good explanation (maybe a link to a source with a good explanation) if I am wrong about what I said. This topic is pushing the limits of my understanding. An authoritative explanation, to resolve my difference in understandings with the OP, is even more welcome. |
EcchiLordMamster said: So I can write fanfictions with all sorts of fetishes in them because they're not real? I can write about how every day I fuck my 2d waifu and she's a 13 years old loli with huge breast size? There have been cases of mentally fucked up people who went to jail because of their passionate fantasies, do you know madthad0890? Check out his story before you imply that it doesn't influence reality.azoth212 said: So as long as something isn't real, you can oversexualize a gender in a show and objectify it ? YES as long as its not real you can show whatever the fuck you want to yes... WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT TO rape torture mutilation pedophilia necrophilia gore WHATEVER, i don't care, and no one should no one is being harmed by fiction, just because some ppl get butthurt over it doesn't mean its harming anyone fictional characters can be drawn however the artist chooses, and chances are the artist is going to make them as attractive as possible, and guess what? anime characters are cute/sexy, deal with it, so duh theyre going to continue to be drawn sexy. its not like they can care anyway and our world gets safer every year, so don't give me that "it makes people do this" bullshit, cause it doesn't EcchiLordMamster said: I wouldn't mix borderline porn with action on whatever my anime genre would be, if I wrote a certain genre of books for instance, I wouldn't shove blatant nudity in them because it simply has nothing to do with the plotplot. If I want porn, I watch porn, but I wouldn't be able to watch porn and action at the same time.Darek said: @EcchiLordMamster there is no reason to anything really. I don't think OP is an SJW, I disagree with him and in the end don't care about his point of view too much but I fail to see how is he an SJW, he is just saying what he thinks, not trying to ban it and shit. why does it even matter then? leme ask OP if you made an anime, what would your characters physically look like? would they be as attractive as you want them to be, or not? if you like big boobs irl, would you give any of your female characters big boobs? and if you like to see boobs jiggle irl, would you make any of the girls boobs jiggle or would you make them like fake implant titties thats have no bounce? im being serious btw |
azoth212Jan 20, 2017 6:07 AM
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
Darek said: Why does what matter? nothing matters, we only need to eat, sleep and fuck but that doesn't me we should not care about other things that "do not matter". this isn't something to care about, im sorry, its just not... theres no evidence that this harms anyone.. making people butthurt does not count and no, its not objectification anyway @Rinar lol thanks xD |
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Darek said: Anime clearly influenced his fantasies, he was so cringey he messaged himself with an alt of his school days waifu, then they found out he was a pedo bear because of his usb full of cp he brought along with him, so how would you say it doesn't affect reality?azoth212 said: So I can write fanfictions with all sorts of fetishes in them because they're not real? I can write about how every day I fuck my 2d waifu and she's a 13 years old loli with huge breast size? There have been cases of mentally fucked up people who went to jail because of their passionate fantasies, do you know madthad0890? Check out his story before you imply that it doesn't influence reality. Did it influence him or did his fantasies influenced them? that is an important factor and you have no proof for the first to be correct. @EcchiLordMamster sure whatever, not my point at all but whatever. |
| "Now, come here. So long as we hold hands, we won't be separated." |
EcchiLordMamster said: having "strange fantasies" is completely normal so obvious its common in fiction all sorts of people are into these kinds of things, theres nothing "different" about it so showing it in ficiton and giving others a platform is 100x better than doing it irl I don't disagree with that. I too like porn and have my fair share of "strange fantasies", but the experience of watching porn and watching other types of media is fundamentally different, in porn I can usually suppress "thinking too much about" and ignore the real life implications of what's happening. But with other pieces of media, "overthinking" and "over analyzing" usually is part the fun. But that means that when there's portrayal of rape, pedophilia, incest, etc. in media, I tend to be much more bothered by it (though that's not always bad), even when I would probably just ignored it in a porno. |
| is everything objectification now? |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
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