| The last few years have given us a lot of stories that I would argue certainly try to be more complex and multifaceted. In anime such as Madoka, Fate/Zero, the lines are sort of blurred between good and evil, and there is often a moral ambiguity to them. Even anime such as Akame ga Kiru, Attack on Titan, and Tokyo Ghoul, for better of for worse, try to introduce those elements that add a second layer to certain characters. Someone is not necessarily evil, just misunderstood or has some deeper emotional scars that need healing. Heroes are not necessarily all good as they make morally questionable choices. In Fate/Zero in particular, the shining example of moral righteousness, Saber, is cast down and rejected in favor of more practical alternatives. I wonder, in the midst of all this however, if there is still value in depicting a typical good versus evil story. Are there any strong examples of good anime in the last few years that have made a distinct separation between the forces of good and evil? Or do we now hunger for something different? Perhaps something more complex? Is our modern era more interested in something that wishes for something a bit more unclear, where moral lines and good and evil are blurred? Discuss. |
| Well I don't know what do you want to discuss, it's all said in your thread. With the time we became more bored with simple characters, we want more complex characthers, that they're more than a simple gimmick. |
-Senpai-Jan 11, 2016 5:51 PM
 NasalShark said: I'd love to squeeze your nipples until they look like a purple slushie, Senpai. |
| Good vs evil can get annoying after awhile, I like that some anime are breaking the norm and bringing us these anime in which morality and justice is questioned; it really adds a sense of depth. Anti heroes are especially my favorite due to their unique and complex stances on things such as sacrificing some for the sake of many or labeling someone as objectively bad and killing them because they have committed a crime (Light). With that being said, I'd like to see more anime with villains as the MC's such as Overlord, Death note or Requiem for the Phantom. |
╮ (. ❛ ᴗ ❛.) ╭ |
| On topic. I generally like when a series is more of the grey zone. Than the simple black and white, good vs evil theme. I like it when a story can show us both side and what their motives are, and generally make the audience be a bit conflicted on which side they should be rooting for, or eve on question if the suppose evil guys are actually evil. This is one of the reasons why I like snk so much, because it does a great job in that department. |
TyrelJan 12, 2016 3:38 PM
| No. I hate plain good vs evil. It's not enough to turn a good series bad but even good examples of it would better if it wasn't that as far as I'm concerned. I find it boring and unrelatable. |
| I want to go back to the hero slays the dragon and rescues the princess. This grey area bullshit is confusing, I have no idea who to cheer for. |
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| Does Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood fall into that category? If so, then that show did it right. |
AltoRoark99 said: Does Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood fall into that category? If so, then that show did it right. Yes. Because Father and all the homunculi are evil/not really confused as the good guys in the story. It is pretty much black and white. |
| Attack on Titan fans ruin everything. |
TonyTheme said: Fixed that for you brother, you are welcome.Attack on Titan Fate Stay Night fans ruin everything. |
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| I actually didn't realise that Fate/Stay Night was even popular until I started going on the MAL forums. |
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| I actually a fan of this good vs evil, moral kind of stories. My always top list are SnK, Naruto, Claymore, Death Note, Psycho-Pass, Kino's Journey, Parayte, etc.... There are a few that I rejected due to high content such as Tokyo Ghoul and Akame ga Kill, but still good (just will not put in my list). Actually good and evil are absolutely gray, nothing is certain and absolute (for me). The definition of both are create by the society. the absolute definition that differentiate between good or evil is only exist in religion, as the religious persons will follow it (as it was a revelation from God-as He knows what best for humanity and their nature) such as is it fine to kill to save others, war, politician, punishment for kill, adultry...sex before marriage (for religion that have the rules), rape, steal, insult people, etc... In anime often use metaphor to describe those things such as monster, vampire and dystopian or fantasy different world to make the stories look fantastic. The creator might just do it for fun and money but that is how keeps me watching anime. For example SnK: Are those Titans evil? What is their reason for just have desire to eat human and not other living things? PscyhoPass: Is Makishima Shougo really a bad person as he opposes the government (Sibyl System) for preventing society thinks what is right and wrong in their mind? Psycho-Pass 2: What is Your Colour? Parasyte: Why do parasites exist? For me, I will not undervalue those kind of stories. As they are not clear, we better make a good use of them. What do you think about those kind of attitudes?.... No absolute answer, because we human thinks differently and gives different answer. Maybe even the creators of the stories do not know the answer. (sorry for bad english) |
HenshinDriftJan 11, 2016 6:14 PM
| I think adding moral complexity to a story can sometimes be just as annoying as oversimplifying the conflict to black and white good vs. evil stuff. The best is in the middle. Too far on the simple end and you have a story that's really predictable, and too far on the complexity side tends to... well let's just say in my case it ends up making me hate every single character because everyone is awash with gray morality and no one stands out as a focal point to ground the rest of them. Really though there should be room for both types of stories in the market so everyone can have something they like. |
| As we grow we become desensitized with the duality of good vs bad, now there's many reasons as to why this happens the main might be because we mature, come to understand that reality is not black and white so when we see an anime that embraces this concept it's a breathe of fresh air contrasting to the generic story we came to grow up to |
| OT: I have read a lot of manga/manwha where the protagonist of the series has made me come to using the term "moralfag", due to highly illogical yet morally righteous behaviour/decisions. I find this kind of characterization and/or form of storytelling to be off-putting as it makes me feel disconnected with a character regardless of whatever character development is put in place, because it seems that, to me, it is too illogical to let the villain get away because killing is wrong. This does not mean that I am in favour of anti-heroes. I usually tend to be more gravitated towards morally ambiguous series that makes one question what it means to be righteous. I find it to me more human for someone to be consumed by rage at a given point or simply just not be forgiving towards one that does evil. I think it is far easier to relate to a character that does not just do good for the sake of doing good, but has their own emotional investment in what makes them act. |
HolybaptiserJan 11, 2016 6:36 PM
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives. |
Holybaptiser said: I am a Hero is full of that, but that is what make the character, that's the whole point of the series that he's not a hero. Idk in my opinion I like it but it depends on how it's done.OT: I have read a lot of manga/manwha where the protagonist of the series has made me come to using the term "moralfag", due to highly illogical yet morally righteous behaviour/decisions. I find this kind of characterization and/or form of storytelling to be off-putting as it makes me feel disconnected with a character regardless of whatever character development is put in place, because it seems that, to me, it is too illogical to let the villain get away because killing is wrong. This does not mean that I am in favour of anti-heroes. |
NasalShark said: I'd love to squeeze your nipples until they look like a purple slushie, Senpai. |
Holybaptiser said: OT: I have read a lot of manga/manwha where the protagonist of the series has made me come to using the term "moralfag", due to highly illogical yet morally righteous behaviour/decisions. I find this kind of characterization and/or form of storytelling to be off-putting as it makes me feel disconnected with a character regardless of whatever character development is put in place, because it seems that, to me, it is too illogical to let the villain get away because killing is wrong. This does not mean that I am in favour of anti-heroes. I usually tend to be more gravitated towards morally ambiguous series that makes one question what it means to be righteous. I find it to me more human for someone to be consumed by rage at a given point or simply just not be forgiving towards one that does evil. I think it is far easier to relate to a character that does not just do good for the sake of doing good, but has their own emotional investment in what makes them act. Go read Ares. MC kills everyone in this series. Plus it is one of the best manhwas ever created. http://myanimelist.net/manga/1076/Ares |
| I rarely like this type of story, good versus evil just isn't interesting, nor realistic. If a bad guy is super evil then I want to know how he became that way. I want to see heroes struggle, not just physically, but ethically as well. The only case where I prefer black and white is with Saturday morning cartoon type villains, tying women to train tracks, monologuing, all that good stuff. That only works in a show that doesn't take itself seriously though, and in any realistic or darker work, I'd prefer the gray. This is why I like Urobuchi so much, all of the shows approach morality in this way. However, Psycho-Pass is more black and white than either of his shows that you listed, and that's my favorite by him, so I these types of characters can also work if we're given a reason for why they're like that, and if having those types of characters is meaningful to the story. |
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| If I were a kid, I might like good vs evil/black vs white approach in any show more than the grey vs grey ones. because I know I can cheer for the obvious winner. However, as a grown-up though, I will rather watch series that make me question 'was that act really good for everything?'. Still, there are some shows that are quite enjoyable to watch even if they are focusing on black vs white approach. But honestly, there is such term called the 'character alignment' where one character in a show is now depicted as... Source: TVTropes Most likely stories that have good vs evil approach will almost have Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Good characters fighting against Neutral/Chaotic Evil. Although in reality, all characters of any specific series even those good vs evil approaches will be classified under a certain character alignment, including the neutral ones. |
Frankies_MonsterJan 11, 2016 7:42 PM
| OT: I hate black/white thinking and love when it's not clear who's bad/good. It sometimes makes an anime a bit harder to follow, but it's just more relatable to me because there just is no clear evil or good imho. |
TyrelJan 12, 2016 3:40 PM
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| i think i's alot easier to write a narrative when the lines seem very straight forward you can argue after that there are very few "evil" characters who are just being evil for the sake of it,(and if they are they its probably shit character design) they mostly all have their reasons good or bad so you have to argue whats black and white and im willing to believe that their is not alot of anime that are black and white and the ones that are are not worth arguing over |
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AltoRoark99 said: Does Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood fall into that category? If so, then that show did it right. The conflict in brotherhood is a good vs evil fight so it does not fall in that category |
| I think this is definitely a development worth noting. The reasons might be that with hobbies like movies or TV or anime becoming more and more popular and people spending more and more time on ingesting stories the level of critical thinking has been growing and instead of just being passively entertained by some easy-to-digest story they want something that reflects and maybe comments on the reality around them in some ways. Realism, not in terms of physics and science, but in terms of character motivations and their actions is something that has risen in value for most viewers. That being said I don't think the market for simpler evil vs good stories will never disappear. Superhero stuff is very popular at the moment and while there are a good amount of ambiguous vigilantes, in many cases it's still based on clear good/evil distinctions and the popularity of something like One Punch Man clearly shows that multi-faceted characters are not required to gain widespread popularity, even today. Sometimes simple works best and that's not gonna change, it's just that TV series and anime have started to take themselves more seriously on average which leads the viewer to expect/demand realistic, three-dimensional characters in return. |
TyrelJan 12, 2016 3:40 PM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I'm more just wishing shows would break away from the evil antagonist who are evil for the sake of being evil or some other simplistic reason like ruling the world or money. Though that might be much asking from me considering I prefer less sophisticated shows and rather just want to watch something to enjoy and laugh, but for the shows that I've seen outside of those at least. There lack shows where a large cast is thrown together and viewers pick whether they're good or bad from their ideology, with none of them actually being legitimately bad or good, just all their beliefs or goals clashes with one another causing conflict. Danganronpa (mostly the game) for example would almost be a good pick if not for the fact series point of view is a specific character throughout the show, meaning viewers will lean more towards their beliefs. Though a certain someone kinda clashes with what I said above too but in a different way. |
| We do. Good vs. Evil don't have to be black-and-white. Digimon Tamers and Medabots are Good vs. Evil stories, yet the evil isn't just random sadistic dude. In fact, this format is excellent for examining two conflicting ideas. You can at once create an evil character but make him understandable. That's why the D-Reaper is so frightening. Also, if you have no pretension you can use this to write a really fun adventure. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| I just think having a bunch of gray areas usually has a better chance of providing an entertaining experience than a black and white story. Not that there is anything wrong with black and white stories, but the problem is you kind of know how the story is going to go. The good guys stay as good guys with strong morals and ethics, while the bad guys stay bad guys with evil intentions. Then by the end of the story the good guy wins (usually in a black and white story the good guy/s almost always win, but there are some exceptions). Black and white stories just tend to be far more predictable than stories with many shades of gray. |
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| Good vs evil is fine. Saint protagonist vs One dimensional villain is not. I'd like some conflict of emotion from my "good" protagonist. Perhaps a struggle with greed or anger. A little reason and back story behind why a villain acts like that would be nice to. Be it childhood trauma or revenge. |
| I'm not a lolicon, you're just projecting your tendency to lewd 2D characters. If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
| Yes. In the modern era people seem to want to forget that truly evil people exist. Serial killers, rapists, and so on are an ever-present reality that has not left us. These people are by and large evil because they enjoy what they do. They are perverts in the truest sense of the word. However, I don't think this denial of continual consciousness of evil is because evil is either "interesting" or "uninteresting", but rather because the so-called modern man does not wish to be bound to morality any more than those before him did. In an age where moral integrity is more heavily enforced, the corrupt desires of the heart protect themselves by veiling themselves as either entirely upright, or at least ambiguous. People want to deceive themselves into thinking that lying is okay in certain circumstances, that greed is okay in certain circumstances, that bribery is okay in certain circumstances, that killing is okay in certain (non-self-defense) circumstances. So on and so forth. There is no bridge between good and evil. There is no greyzone-- only the purposeful delusion that such a thing exists because it's easier. However, I will say that this is the major downfall of many black vs. white stories. They often make picking the moral high ground look easy, and they often make the consequences of evil immediate. This is often not the case in reality. They also tend to portray the "good side" as perfect morally speaking when this is unnecessary (as long as the consequences of evil are maintained in the long run, both for the "good side" and the "bad side"). Some people take this claim to mean it is okay to judge people carelessly in real life, but that is not the case I am making. There are many factors that may be difficult or impossible for another person to take into account because everyone has lived through different life experiences. Only someone who has been raped knows what it is like to live after being raped. Only someone who has been abused knows what it is like to have been abused. Only someone who has been fatherless knows what it is like to be fatherless. So on and so forth. While circumstances like these do not justify evil, it does (appropriately) dissuade unbridled judgement because it is simply impossible for many to understand what it would take and how impossible it would seem to make all of the right choices had they themselves lived through such circumstances. There is a place for mercy, love, and (empathetic) understanding. Because of this, I feel that there is a great deal of depth in black vs. white that is simply not explored. The existence of an absolute right and wrong simply does not appeal to many's desires, and thus stories concerning it are left simple and focus more on things that people do like-- power, violence, fame, opulence, and so on. This is a tragedy. I would give more for one superbly developed black and white story than fifty "superbly developed" grey stories due both to the former's rarity and their largely untapped potential. |
TripleSRankJan 11, 2016 11:19 PM
| Good vs Evil works best when the plot is providing a true sense of despair - the evil is worldwide or expands fast. The more alien it is, the better - our lack of understanding creates fear(though it also generates curiosity). I don't really care about the villain if the scenario is "save the world" - just do it as quickly as possible. No time to spare. Plots that stretch my moral threshold are also good. If it involves humans, it probably involves greed for money/power as well. That would usually be quite terrible, involving human experiments or heavy damage to the environment. However they have a major flaw - a lack of competition. To think only one "organization" exists is silly. There must be multiple organizations working from the shadows, working towards the same goal, spying on each other. Time travel isn't physically feasible so it's a bad example, but human cloning better reflects what I think. It's something completely possible that's being tested for sure in our own countries. Honestly speaking you really don't need an organization, just pick your own government and make an anime about it. |
 俺とお前との違いが何だ？！ |
| Someone is trying hard to derail this thread. Filthy elitists made a sentence with SnK, must be an insult. OT: I guess I just don't care about good vs evil. I never did. I find "neutral" threats far more menacing: think Godzilla, the neutral strict eco kaiju; Alien, a scary apex predator; the Thing, a paranoia-inducing space AIDS; Lovecraftian cosmic beings, etc... Hideaki's Godzilla coming this year BTW. |
DeathkoJan 12, 2016 3:35 AM
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| I've been wondering about it for a while too. There's this romatization of evil, but it's been here since the era of romanticism, and it helps selling the antagonist too. And sometimes it's hard to watch a black and white series, cause it becomes sort of racist? I mean, if there's no explanation of why the evil is exactly purely evil, I sometimes start to feel bad for the part despised and bound to lose. On the other hand, the shades of grey stories, the anti-heroes are in vogue, so they're often overdone. I believe that you also need to know how to do such stories, cause the desire to make everyone morally ambiguous often results in anyone and anything being scum (maybe aside from mary sue mc), and you're left with no one to root for. Anti-heroes also are getting old. All in all, I think that there's a possibility to make a more white and black story nowadays. It all hangs on execution. |
| Yes, because gray area characters tend to be weaksauce compared to the pure and absolute strength good and evil. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Now to actually answer the topic: I can personally enjoy both types of shows as long as they're executed well. I do like it when an anime blurs the lines between good and evil when it shows that there are certain evils that are necessary in the world, and that not all morally good choices are sometimes the right ones. A recent anime that I can think of that did this well is Maria the Virgin Witch. Here the MC wants to end all war and conflict because it is simply bad. However, many of the other characters, including antagonists and the MC's allies, are opposed to this for various reasons. These range from economic standpoints to simple matters of one's pride. So overall, I think both can provide good entertainment but one form can make you think more. |
TyrelJan 12, 2016 3:41 PM
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| I don't mind white vs evil stories if the characters are interesting for me, even if the main villain is Hitler incarnate or the Devil's spawn. Some of my favs, like FMA or Jojo features this and I don't mind at all (Hell, Dio might be one of the most black villains in anime story and all the Homunculus of FMA except Greed are evil, but they were interesting villains anyway). Stories of Gray morality are also good, but like I said, I don't mind evil vs good stories at all. |
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| Perhaps so. People are quick to judge "evil as evil" or "white knight" as bad characters as if they are unrealistic, and are quick to call it "oh the edge" or something similar. Well, it can certainly be edgy, but that doesn't really mean it's a bad thing. I blame it on interest, since truthfully I find those villains and heroes with "sad backstories" and such with more things to be, well, interested in. There's nothing really that much interesting with a person that's white or black completely. You already know them quite well when they are revealed and there's nothing much to inspect other than a few possible twists. Hence why such characters need to compensate for their lacking aspects. My favorite character is a completely black character, that is Hazama, and while his backstory is generally "he does really evil shit for no real excusable reason", he compensated by having a quirky and troll-ish personality, often toying with people in very sadistic ways. People like to have more complex stories and characters nowadays, and whether or not that is good really just depends on how the show executes the story and characters. |
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AzureDaora said: But in Hazama's case, he feeds on the hate of people, so his acts are in some way logical.Hence why such characters need to compensate for their lacking aspects. My favorite character is a completely black character, that is Hazama, and while his backstory is generally "he does really evil shit for no real excusable reason", he compensated by having a quirky and troll-ish personality, often toying with people in very sadistic ways. |
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Illyricus- said: True, but his main reason is just to feed his interest. While he literally trolls to live on the world, he doesn't actually need to do it, well, THAT much I believe. Even then, he only feeds on hate to stay anchored to the current world, so that he does not stay a ghost all the time iircAzureDaora said: But in Hazama's case, he feeds on the hate of people, so his acts are in some way logical.Hence why such characters need to compensate for their lacking aspects. My favorite character is a completely black character, that is Hazama, and while his backstory is generally "he does really evil shit for no real excusable reason", he compensated by having a quirky and troll-ish personality, often toying with people in very sadistic ways. |
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AzureDaora said: He is basically the ultimate troll. God, how much I love Hazama, too bad that the Blazblue anime ruined him.Illyricus- said: True, but his main reason is just to feed his interest. While he literally trolls to live on the world, he doesn't actually need to do it, well, THAT much I believe. Even then, he only feeds on hate to stay anchored to the current world, so that he does not stay a ghost all the time iircBut in Hazama's case, he feeds on the hate of people, so his acts are in some way logical. |
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| Too be honest, I like this recent trend. In real life, people have underlying motivations that will blur the line between good and evil. Maybe it's just the way media in this day and age has been moving. |
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TripleSRank said: That is an interesting take on it. I am no sympathetic to your claim that there is no bridge between good and evil however. Are you saying that there is always a brightline between the right choice and the wrong choice?I would give more for one superbly developed black and white story than fifty "superbly developed" grey stories due both to the former's rarity and their largely untapped potential. If so, must we make the argument that these "morally grey" stories that we are discussing are merely illusions of moral ambiguity? Pullman said: I think I have noticed even with the superhero movies is that there has been a shift towards that morally ambiguous state. Take a look at something like Batman and you can see that it takes a darker shift towards the franchise. Even some of the earlier Batman films and TV shows had elements where Batman was forced into difficult choices that were not always clear good or evil. I wonder if the superhero universe is wondering if they need to adapt to this new call for something that is a bit more multi-faceted.Moving on, I think this is definitely a development worth noting. The reasons might be that with hobbies like movies or TV or anime becoming more and more popular and people spending more and more time on ingesting stories the level of critical thinking has been growing and instead of just being passively entertained by some easy-to-digest story they want something that reflects and maybe comments on the reality around them in some ways. Realism, not in terms of physics and science, but in terms of character motivations and their actions is something that has risen in value for most viewers. That being said I don't think the market for simpler evil vs good stories will never disappear. Superhero stuff is very popular at the moment and while there are a good amount of ambiguous vigilantes, in many cases it's still based on clear good/evil distinctions and the popularity of something like One Punch Man clearly shows that multi-faceted characters are not required to gain widespread popularity, even today. Sometimes simple works best and that's not gonna change, it's just that TV series and anime have started to take themselves more seriously on average which leads the viewer to expect/demand realistic, three-dimensional characters in return. |
TyrelJan 12, 2016 3:41 PM
| It's better to portray a normal MC with vague morals because I think it's more logical and truthful. So good MC such as typical shounen MC are just bland, we need a change. Noir themes are good, and we need more like them, e.g. pragmatic ethical type. |
-CallMeSenpai- said: Why are you equating good and evil as simple gimmicks?Well I don't know what do you want to discuss, it's all said in your thread. With the time we became more bored with simple characters, we want more complex characthers, that they're more than a simple gimmick. |
| ITT : perfect example of why arguing with fanboys/girls is completely pointless, since they're immune to logic / reason. On topic though - I tend to prefer characters and stories which have more layers and complexities to them. Black / white stories work best when, IMO, they aren't overly serious. Even if not necessarily comedic in nature, simple stories are more prone to resorting to extremities in order to get their point across. IE Villain is not only a bad guy, he also rapes babies and stomps on kittens because he gets off on it. It's the quickest way to exemplify the intended nature - this guy is evil. But when you have grey characters it gives them a lot more room to develop in their own right; they can have these layers added on to make them seem far more realistic. It ends up for making both the story and the characters themselves a lot more interesting. |
 It's an entirely different kind of flying, altogether! It's an entirely different kind of flying. |
| Too mainstream, and this world doesn't work that way, why you can think just black and white if there's many thing hide amongst the "grey"? Those "grayscale" anime tells you about morality, slice of life, and conveys many more message than just "keep fighting, don't give up" Becoming hero isn't always great, luffy tells ya. "Hero is the one who share the food with other, so i don't want to be a hero" |
masterofgo said: The last few years have given us a lot of stories that I would argue certainly try to be more complex and multifaceted. In anime such as Madoka, Fate/Zero, the lines are sort of blurred between good and evil, and there is often a moral ambiguity to them. Even anime such as Akame ga Kiru, Attack on Titan, and Tokyo Ghoul, for better of for worse, try to introduce those elements that add a second layer to certain characters. Someone is not necessarily evil, just misunderstood or has some deeper emotional scars that need healing. Heroes are not necessarily all good as they make morally questionable choices. In Fate/Zero in particular, the shining example of moral righteousness, Saber, is cast down and rejected in favor of more practical alternatives. I wonder, in the midst of all this however, if there is still value in depicting a typical good versus evil story. Are there any strong examples of good anime in the last few years that have made a distinct separation between the forces of good and evil? Or do we now hunger for something different? Perhaps something more complex? Is our modern era more interested in something that wishes for something a bit more unclear, where moral lines and good and evil are blurred? Discuss. ROKKA NO YUUSHA MOTHERFUCKER! Sorry. But yeah. Shows like that still exist, and they're fantastic. layfonkun said: To be honest I kind of miss those "traditional" black and white narratives. It feels like the new trend is to go gray with an anti hero(es) or byronic protagonist(s) and that's fine. However it's becoming more common now, and more people are hopping on the bandwagon, and it is not limited to anime and manga. I find myself lately reminiscing about those stories, there was a sense of beauty to their simplicity. I know we like realism in our characters and stories and the world and the people in it are complex and multifaceted, but is it wrong to sometimes want the fantasy of the good guys and girls can win doing the "right" things? I'm not asking for a full return to that but some diversity would be nice. People can say what they want to about Naruto and Danmachi but they did feature two "traditional" heroes who were fun to watch as they grew before our eyes. We're going to miss characters like Naruto and Bell when they are gone. I agree. That's why I liked Gatchaman Crowds so much. It's going to sound really weird but Gatchaman Crowds had BOTH! |
| No. I prefer shades-of-gray stories due to their realism. Someone being evil just to be evil, or good just to be good, rarely happens in the real world; everyone has a motive to do what they do, despite how wrong or twisted it might be. In order to flesh characters out and make them into characters rather than plot devices, you need motives and backstories, which are ample parts of sympathetic villains. The monstrous person who is never given any reason for committing all sorts of crimes is an example of the plot device villain; he's not opposing the hero for any logical reason, he's opposing the hero because the plot says the protagonist must have an antagonist to fight against. Fleshed-out characters might fill the same role, but at least they have a reason for being evil that makes sense. |
MoonJump said: Good vs Evil works best when the plot is providing a true sense of despair - the evil is worldwide or expands fast. The more alien it is, the better - our lack of understanding creates fear(though it also generates curiosity). I don't really care about the villain if the scenario is "save the world" - just do it as quickly as possible. No time to spare. Plots that stretch my moral threshold are also good. If it involves humans, it probably involves greed for money/power as well. That would usually be quite terrible, involving human experiments or heavy damage to the environment. However they have a major flaw - a lack of competition. To think only one "organization" exists is silly. There must be multiple organizations working from the shadows, working towards the same goal, spying on each other. Time travel isn't physically feasible so it's a bad example, but human cloning better reflects what I think. It's something completely possible that's being tested for sure in our own countries. Honestly speaking you really don't need an organization, just pick your own government and make an anime about it. Alien evil is exactly what makes these stories so shallow. Evil isn't alien. Evil is among us. Good people can do terrible things. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Thread Cleaned Please stop going off-topic. You know who you are when I say this, and if you see this post. Does it really matter what series the OP used? No. And because he picked specific titles, people(s) are getting ansy that some anime they like we're either put up there/not (Because you disagree). Please do not turn this into a discussion like that. That's not what the thread was intended to do. I have deleted and modified all quotes that pertained to said 'discussion', and while it was still a discussion, it was off-topic. |
TyrelJan 12, 2016 3:47 PM
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masterofgo said: TripleSRank said: That is an interesting take on it. I am no sympathetic to your claim that there is no bridge between good and evil however. Are you saying that there is always a brightline between the right choice and the wrong choice?I would give more for one superbly developed black and white story than fifty "superbly developed" grey stories due both to the former's rarity and their largely untapped potential. If so, must we make the argument that these "morally grey" stories that we are discussing are merely illusions of moral ambiguity? Hmm. Let me answer this with a story. Let's say we have a child named Little Jim. Little Jim is poor and is worked from dawn till dusk all day every day whenever he isn't at school. He isn't given good food nor drink, nor is he given all but the bare minimum amount of free time needed to eat, sleep, and maintain hygiene. When Little Jim finally grows old enough to gain independence, he's dazzled at all of the nice things he never had growing up: better food, more free time, and money of his own. It's not much, but it's more than he ever had. Now let's say that someone else, we'll call him Bobby, wants some of the few things Little Jim has worked hard for. Would Little Jim be wrong or evil for not wanting to share? The point is, while sharing or giving is good, not sharing or giving isn't necessarily evil, and even calling it selfish in the above case would be a quick judgement, especially if we don't know Little Jim's background. However, what if we shift things just a little and say that Bobby is a kid in the same situation Little Jim used to be in? If Little Jim doesn't share then, isn't he a hypocrite? Can we then call foul? The point is, a lot of it has to do with balance, and casting aside the above, not all choices are even necessarily related to morals. Choosing a job or hobby to engage in is not necessarily inherently good or evil, for example. And even when a decision is connected to morals (in which cases, yes, I do believe there is always a brightline), making a wrong decision doesn't necessarily mean we should immediately judge the character in question. All of that being said, I do think your final line captures the essence of my viewpoint. These so-called grey stories are merely illusions of moral ambiguity, or rather they are only as morally ambiguous as the interpreter makes them out to be. Edit: You might be wondering what I think the difference between a black vs. white story and a grey story is, since I said the moral ambiguity is an illusion. It is merely the differences in how actions and consequences are portrayed. If morally nebulous actions are portrayed as okay or inconsequential (e.g. the protagonist lying, cheating, etc.) despite the good guys otherwise being... well, good, then it is grey. If morally nebulous actions have appropriate consequences (e.g. lying ruins the protag's credibility or it bites him in the butt later, cheating causes him to make avoidable/potentially dangerous mistakes later, etc.), then the story is black and white. |
TripleSRankJan 12, 2016 4:02 PM
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