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Poll: Log Horizon Episode 19 Discussion


Feb 9, 2014 5:46 PM

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katsu044 said:
Gonna laugh if all that happens is that he just respawns because that's normally what happens when NPCs die.


Actually NPCs (Landers) don't respawn at all.When they die they ARE dead. Unless someone does something before the body disperses they will forever be gone.
 
Feb 9, 2014 8:17 PM

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AnimeFan500 said:
Did anyone see this comparison post on tumblr. It speaks for itself T__T

http://99numbershunters.tumblr.com/post/76000682028/i-cant-stop-crying-its-the-same-exact-scene

Oh wow..
 
Feb 9, 2014 8:32 PM

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oh wow such an awesome mood swing twist....


THAT WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN 19 TIMES BEFORE, WHO IN THEIR FUCKING MINDS THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO PUT IT IN THE FUCKING OPENING?

And the good thing of this anime was that it didnt have that piss-poor attempt at drama that SAO had and WHOOP-DE-FUCKING-DOO, the same exact attempt at piss-poor drama /rant


nosediving anime is nosediving
Modified by Catastrophic, Feb 9, 2014 8:39 PM
 
Feb 9, 2014 8:42 PM

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I totally just remembered, when Shiroe was talking to that famous mage, didnt the mage say revival was possible for both People of the Land and Adventurers??
 
Feb 9, 2014 8:50 PM

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Old_Raven said:
I totally just remembered, when Shiroe was talking to that famous mage, didnt the mage say revival was possible for both People of the Land and Adventurers??


Yes*

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http://randomnessthing.com/
 
Feb 10, 2014 12:40 AM

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Woah Rusty is pretty badass on the field :o Them Rudy feels, only bad thing was that we've seen it coming since episode 1 do to the spoiler in the OP >,> Although it didn't give away that he was a People of the Land until the episode where Isuzu couldn't add him to her friend list.
 
Feb 10, 2014 12:51 AM
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ost in Rudy dead scene is dam good...
and Kanami cameo is nice, hope they do more flashback in last 5 eps
 
Feb 10, 2014 7:26 AM
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aHersheyBar said:
AnimeFan500 said:
Did anyone see this comparison post on tumblr. It speaks for itself T__T

http://99numbershunters.tumblr.com/post/76000682028/i-cant-stop-crying-its-the-same-exact-scene

Oh wow..
aHersheyBar said:
AnimeFan500 said:
Did anyone see this comparison post on tumblr. It speaks for itself T__T

http://99numbershunters.tumblr.com/post/76000682028/i-cant-stop-crying-its-the-same-exact-scene

Oh wow..


LOL... Sometime when i see isuzu x rudy , kinda remind me of asuna x kirito ( even for 99% they dont have any similarity ) wkwkwkkw .
 
Feb 10, 2014 7:50 AM

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5/5

The prelude warmed slightly, the battle heats up instead! XD
Just a fight with bows with twist at the end, I did not expected, I thought I had been thinking of something less obvious, but in the end Rudy was an inhabitant of the earth. Now after the promo, the wait is even more nerve-wracking! ^ ^ "
Except the drawings are exceptional, the rest is of a decent, good job of Satelight.
Plot and narrative very substantial, very good OST.
 
Feb 10, 2014 7:54 AM

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Krusty was badass this episode, loved watching him fight. i don't know what they were thinking though about putting that supposed Rudy death scene in the opening. Hope Rudy doesn't die
 
Feb 10, 2014 8:56 AM

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Really hope Rudy doesn't doesn't die, love his character. But can't believe I didn't figure it out before, it seems so obvious now!
 
Feb 10, 2014 9:05 AM

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FINALLY a good ep with tons of action :'D
rudy tho ;_; i really hope he survives ;___;

srsly tho, this was such a step up from all the explanation :)
now if only hunter x hunter could learn something from this lol
 
Feb 10, 2014 1:28 PM
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I thought adventurers didn't experience physical exhaustion? I get Rudy being really exhausted (which makes his final efforts so much more admirable), but for some reason I was under the impression that the Adventurers didn't experience physical exhaustion per se... Could somebody explain this to me?
 
Feb 10, 2014 1:41 PM

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Man, I kept telling myself it wasn't gonna happen, but dammit it did... of course the rain and all should've given it away too, but I just wanted to believe that he'd live. Tears were definitely shed this day. I actually just had a thought that maybe if he does survive (which the preview seemed to spoil that he does)... maybe he'll become one of those legendary NPC heroes they keep talking about.

kamijoan said:
Sooooooo..... how does he even use magic and commands? XD
Any NPC can just appear and be a one-death-adventurer?
Well, they didn't explain it yet... but I'm pretty sure NPCs can all use magic and all... the commands part is probably a ruse. It's probably more like how all NPCs have a title, and perhaps he is a Sorcerer class NPC. Or maybe it goes with how they said People of the Land can now think for themselves and choose their own actions, so perhaps they're also able to level up and learn new skills as well.
 
Feb 10, 2014 3:30 PM

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keboduduk said:
xchee said:


edit_ Found the bit about the last 5 episodes:

>>Are you pleased with how the anime is adapting your work? Is there anything that was skipped or changed that you don't like?
That's difficult.
The anime is satisfying as an anime production.
The VAs' acting is splendid.
Shiroe, Naotsugu, Akatsuki, Nyanta, Serara, Krusty(?), Isuzu, and Rundelhaus(?) are especially good.
And I have to restrain myself in front of one of the seiyuu. I'm one of her fans after all.
Please look forward to the last five episodes


My guess is , i think she is VA for nureha/kanami . But...who is she , no idea


Kanami have already her VA, Inoue Marina, soooo Its possible it would appear Nureha, Inctis, or Rieze, that 3 girls
 
Feb 10, 2014 5:36 PM
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judderwocky said:
I thought adventurers didn't experience physical exhaustion? I get Rudy being really exhausted (which makes his final efforts so much more admirable), but for some reason I was under the impression that the Adventurers didn't experience physical exhaustion per se... Could somebody explain this to me?


Adventurers can experience physical exhaustion, but they are stronger than people of the land so they don't get tired easily. They still need to eat and sleep to recover their stamina afterall :D

Rudy is a people of the land, so he's physically weaker than his party member. Maybe being a sorcerer as his main class also contributing to his lack of stamina. He may be powerful but mage classes are squishy from the beginning.
 
Feb 10, 2014 7:09 PM
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annettefelice said:
judderwocky said:
I thought adventurers didn't experience physical exhaustion? I get Rudy being really exhausted (which makes his final efforts so much more admirable), but for some reason I was under the impression that the Adventurers didn't experience physical exhaustion per se... Could somebody explain this to me?


Adventurers can experience physical exhaustion, but they are stronger than people of the land so they don't get tired easily. They still need to eat and sleep to recover their stamina afterall :D

Rudy is a people of the land, so he's physically weaker than his party member. Maybe being a sorcerer as his main class also contributing to his lack of stamina. He may be powerful but mage classes are squishy from the beginning.


makes sense, thanks!
 
Feb 10, 2014 7:55 PM

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majiloveanime said:
I actually hate the fact that Minori is copying Shiroe...


Same. This is why I hated Kise from KnB because he kept on copying other people's moves. I hate copycats, they got no originality.
I can't believe Minori went from a notebook to Shiroe's full-control encounter that quick... She needs to start doing her own thing instead of chasing after Shiroe. She is friggin' annoying and her character design is fug.
 
Feb 10, 2014 11:10 PM
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eternaltorture said:
majiloveanime said:
I actually hate the fact that Minori is copying Shiroe...


Same. This is why I hated Kise from KnB because he kept on copying other people's moves. I hate copycats, they got no originality.
I can't believe Minori went from a notebook to Shiroe's full-control encounter that quick... She needs to start doing her own thing instead of chasing after Shiroe. She is friggin' annoying and her character design is fug.


I think I'll defend Minori for a bit, the poor girl is still 14 afterall XD

Shiroe taught her about full control encounter as a part of his lessons, it's not strange for Minori to understand how it works because she got the talent and she's working very hard to prove her worth to Shiroe. And imo, she understand it even faster because she is a Kannagi.

Her personality and goals also become part of her motivation to gain control in battle. She has Tohya, who bounded to a wheelchair and she wants to support him (in the novel, Minori blaming herself for almost everything because she can't do more to support Tohya and relieving their parent's burden. She played elder tales because her brother and want to accompany him in his adventure).

Minori has a great sense of responsibility as the elder sister and if something goes wrong, she'll blame herself. Heck, when she got enslaved by Hamelin, she still blaming herself for her lack of knowledge about the game and because she is a beginner, she doesn't have any worth to be saved. Tohya shares this point, too but he have his own point of view (a bit simpler than Minori's).

After Shiroe saved her and continued his lessons, Minori idolized him. VERY MUCH. She wants to understand all of the info dumps from Shiroe and yes, she's chasing after his back literally. She has a very pessimistic way to view the world (imo, even worse than Shiroe) and wants to change it. Shiroe's teaching become her guide to do it because she doesn't have any alternative guide at the moment (yes I'm not joking). She don't know much about Elder Tale and her redeeming point is only her hard working nature.

If you hate her so much, yes.. her naivete in worshipping + using Shiroe's teaching eventually will become her downfall (another self blaming festival). It's her part of character development.
in Shiroe's pov (It's from the next arc, so I'll put it in the spoiler) :


Another reason about why Minori was able to do full control encounter is Kannagi's way of fighting. Minori can't heal as good as Serara. She relies on her barriers to protect her party. Deploying barriers need more strategic thinking, timing (barriers power compared to enemy's damage) and perfect understanding about the battlefield. She's suck at healing damage and not an effective DPS, so she compensates her weaker repertoire with Shiroe's knowledge. Her lack of experience is her main obstacle in this matter. She's already feel inferior to her party member because she is the weakest in everything *her level* (Rudy got more DPS).

In the battle against goblin, she was able to memorize everything because she fought without changing her party member so she knew about their skills and limitation. She has time to train her battle management between battle so yes, she got better.
Modified by annettefelice, Feb 11, 2014 8:05 AM
 
Feb 11, 2014 1:14 AM

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No RUDYYYY ;-;
Alone on a Friday night? Remember that DIO did nothing wrong!
 
Feb 11, 2014 2:26 AM

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Amazing episode. Rudy noooooooooooo :(
 
Feb 11, 2014 3:06 AM

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annettefelice said:

Her personality and goals also become part of her motivation to gain control in battle. She has Tohya, who bounded to a wheelchair and she wants to support him (in the novel, Minori blaming herself for almost everything because she can't do more to support Tohya and relieving their parent's burden. She played elder tales because her brother and want to accompany him in his adventure).

Minori has a great sense of responsibility as the elder sister and if something goes wrong, she'll blame herself. Heck, when she got enslaved by Hamelin, she still blaming herself for her lack of knowledge about the game and because she is a beginner, she doesn't have any worth to be saved.

When she was going all "I'm powerless, I shouldn't be saved" during that Hamelin arc, I thought "this is just a kid getting too emotional, can't be helped." I didn't think she was carrying that much burden. Definitely provided insight on Minor's thought process, thank you.
"May those who accept their fate be granted happiness."

"May those who defy their fate be granted glory."
 
Feb 11, 2014 4:43 AM
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Natr1x said:
juflizalaris said:
Big WAR, Group Fight, Tactic

sorry maybe this is off topic, but is there any other anime like this with big war, group fight, and tactic?


You could check out Maoyuu Maou Yuusha, it's the same author and has sort of a similar feel. You will have to put up with a lot more fan service though because of the adaptation. Also it uses quite a lot of time skips which I know a lot of people find annoying. But it is the best anime that I know of when it comes to portraying tactics and politics for grand fantasy wars.

Same author! This explains all the Maoyuu vibes I was getting from the last few episodes...
 
Feb 11, 2014 7:24 AM
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Minori x shiroe or akatsuki x shiroe ? Hehe
 
Feb 11, 2014 7:46 AM

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Rudy! He was so awesome this episode.

Krusty is a beast. He was killing the goblins like it was nothing and smiled while doing it.
 
Feb 11, 2014 7:57 AM
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xchee said:

When she was going all "I'm powerless, I shouldn't be saved" during that Hamelin arc, I thought "this is just a kid getting too emotional, can't be helped." I didn't think she was carrying that much burden. Definitely provided insight on Minor's thought process, thank you.


She's powerless because she didn't know much about the world and how to survive in it.. combine it with her low self esteem tendency and we got a shabby Minori in episode 8. She thought that she already got what she deserved because she didn't fight harder to make her own place (well, she can't. it's not her fault, though..). Fortunately, Tohya is always there for her :D

keboduduk said:
Minori x shiroe or akatsuki x shiroe ? Hehe

No. I want Henrietta x Shiroe. They can rule Akiba together! :3
Modified by annettefelice, Feb 11, 2014 8:01 AM
 
Feb 11, 2014 5:42 PM

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annettefelice said:
Great analysis of Minori's character. What's all the hate on her about? She's working hard and growing quickly. Yes, she's using Shiroe as an example, but he's the best teacher she has atm. Can't wait to see how she starts developing her own battle style once she masters his.

Rudy was lovely. Everything to say about him has already been said, though, so I won't be commenting on him. I'm very curious to how they will revive him. The wait for the next episode is almost as unnerving as waiting for a Skip Beat chapter. It's driving me to the edge! >w<
These faces are so cute that I might just leave them here (#`Д´)´∀`)・ω・) ゚Д゚)゚∀゚)・∀・) ̄ー ̄)´_ゝ`)
 
Feb 11, 2014 7:31 PM

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Finally that bit from the OP happens.

Looks like Rudy will be fine. The next episode preview completely spoils it.

Best episode they've had in a while.
 
Feb 12, 2014 9:01 AM

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Nice episode.

☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆☆


watch nodame cantabile

recommend me anything!
 
Feb 12, 2014 1:36 PM

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Can't say that wasn't obvious enough. I don't exactly dislike these kids, but thought the story could focus on the experienced players more. :/
 
Feb 12, 2014 2:12 PM

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Tachii said:
Can't say that wasn't obvious enough. I don't exactly dislike these kids, but thought the story could focus on the experienced players more. :/


yea i agree. Too much spotlight on the supporting cast :\

 
Feb 12, 2014 4:14 PM
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Zeally said:
Tachii said:
Can't say that wasn't obvious enough. I don't exactly dislike these kids, but thought the story could focus on the experienced players more. :/


yea i agree. Too much spotlight on the supporting cast :


emm.. the thing is, the children are the part of the main cast ^^" (Minori and Tohya are the members of Log Horizon), it's fair enough for them go get the spotlight. Because they provide us the view of the world after Apocalypse from the beginner's eyes.

It depend on our interpretation about who is the main character (beside Shiroe). From my pov, every arcs has their main focus and a set of major characters. The story is not revolving around Shiroe-Akatsuki-Naotsugu alone. The author takes his time to build a complex story with many characters in it.

About more focus to more experienced players, they'll got their shares in the story according to their role. Shiroe mostly works in the backstage.. that's why Akatsuki got stuck there without fight. Naotsugu is already fighting with Nyanta, but the most important event at that time is Minori's battle and Rudy's heroic sacrifice.

If we considering that supporting cast are annoying and stole the show, we won't getting another pov about the world of Elder Tales. Lennesia and Rundel Haus will provide us about their view about adventurers from PotL, and both of them are important pieces in Shiroe's chessboard.

Shiroe's modus operandi is scheming. He won't go for random adventures anymore because now he has a great responsibility to Akiba and Round Table Council. He'll go raiding but with a reason, not for enjoyment. Don't be surprised if Shiroe got struck by loads of desk work. It's his divine retribution for all of his actions.

I'll defend the children. Their character development will push another development to the more experienced players. The twin situation become one of Shiroe's reason to broke his shell and build his courage to take more responsibility for everyone's sake. If you looking for Akatsuki's development.. she'll get one, after Minori's. Naotsugu and Nyanta still enjoying their seat as supporting chara at the moment.
Modified by annettefelice, Feb 12, 2014 4:19 PM
 
Feb 13, 2014 2:58 AM

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So I marathoned this anime in the past 2-3 days and I have to say that it's amazing. Shiroe is an awesome main character and I say it as a person who usually dislikes MCs. I think all characters are really well written and I also really liked how Rudy wasn't a stereotype even though it looked that way. Although the whole deal with him was very predictable and it's sort of weird that no one has realised it before. I mean, if no one else then Minori must have. Also, weren't his stats shown too? I remember Tohya looking at his level.

Another thing I like a lot is the slow and realistic development of relationships. Many anime hurry in this department but this does it slowly and so creates enough time for more insight into characters' way of thinking.

My only problem with this anime is Minori. -_- Seriously, I can't stand her. If I were in a party with her, I'd spend majority of my time yelling at her for being useless. I'm not talking about her few moments of clarity when she's acting like a proper tactician but so many times she was just staring instead of acting or fighting instead of watching the battlefield... At first I hated her because I have people with attitude "I can't save myself but I won't even try or ask for help because I don't deserve it so hear me whine.". Then I hated her even more for her attitude "I think know what to do but doing nothing is better so I'd rather go with no plan than a bad one.". I began liking her when she finally spoke up and did something. She was really cool and I thought her character learned from her mistakes. But no, what does she do when things get bad? Jumps right into the middle. I can't even describe how much I facepalmed at that scene. She went basically back to who she was in the first day of dungeon. And then when it got even worse, instead of doing SOMETHING she just stood there staring and crying. OMG! I prefer tanking in MMORPGs but I did play support a few times and this is the worst a supporter can do. ANYTHING is better than doing nothing or fighting physically (and I've actually played a hybrid supporter). When you support you support regardless how bad stuff gets because even a single heal spell can win a battle. Her copying Shiroe is understandable and I think she did it well but she needs to listen to her own advice. I like rest of the kids, they add a very interesting POV and side plot.

In other words, great anime but I can't stand Minori at all.
 
Feb 13, 2014 3:45 AM
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HikaruIzumi said:

My only problem with this anime is Minori. -_- Seriously, I can't stand her. If I were in a party with her, I'd spend majority of my time yelling at her for being useless. I'm not talking about her few moments of clarity when she's acting like a proper tactician but so many times she was just staring instead of acting or fighting instead of watching the battlefield... At first I hated her because I have people with attitude "I can't save myself but I won't even try or ask for help because I don't deserve it so hear me whine.". Then I hated her even more for her attitude "I think know what to do but doing nothing is better so I'd rather go with no plan than a bad one.". I began liking her when she finally spoke up and did something. She was really cool and I thought her character learned from her mistakes. But no, what does she do when things get bad? Jumps right into the middle. I can't even describe how much I facepalmed at that scene. She went basically back to who she was in the first day of dungeon. And then when it got even worse, instead of doing SOMETHING she just stood there staring and crying. OMG! I prefer tanking in MMORPGs but I did play support a few times and this is the worst a supporter can do. ANYTHING is better than doing nothing or fighting physically (and I've actually played a hybrid supporter). When you support you support regardless how bad stuff gets because even a single heal spell can win a battle. Her copying Shiroe is understandable and I think she did it well but she needs to listen to her own advice. I like rest of the kids, they add a very interesting POV and side plot.

In other words, great anime but I can't stand Minori at all.


Time to defend Minori again. The Author definitely likes to write about her in this arc XD

"I can't save myself but I won't even try or ask for help because I don't deserve it so hear me whine." --> My opinion : it's the anime who made her whine as a way to explain the situation. She really think that she didn't deserved to be saved because at that time, she can only become a burden to the others.The only experienced player in her friend list is only Shiroe. The most important thing : She know that her situation it's still better in Hamelin than roaming as a potential target for PKs. She can eat, and have friends in the same situation. That's why she hesitate to answer Shiroe's question about their condition in Hamelin. When in Hamelin, She and Tohya shared their limited knowledge (from Shiroe, when they played the game) with her friends and did their best to fulfill Hamelin's outrageous orders.
Tohya is the opposite : he wants to get out, but can't do so because Minori become the hostage and can't leave the guild hall. Both of the twin hold their principles and think that Shiroe is only an acquaintance.

I can't stand her. If I were in a party with her, I'd spend majority of my time yelling at her for being useless + so many times she was just staring instead of acting or fighting instead of watching the battlefield --> My opinion : It's her job as the field monitor + operator to watch the battlefield, so her party can put more focus to their job. She only join the fray when things get really bad or covering the others. Remember that she's suck at healing, not a good DPS, lower leveled than her party, and her build at the moment is mainly for supporting purpose. If we compared to Krusty's blitz group, Minori's position is the same as Takayama Misa (the woman who stayed with Lennesia). She watched the battlefield and gave information to Krusty.

Then I hated her even more for her attitude "I think know what to do but doing nothing is better so I'd rather go with no plan than a bad one." --> My opinion : It's her personality. She's a very reserved person and can't express her feelings in a good way. She can be very blunt when executing her plan (She made Rudy mad in episode 15 because of her initial reasoning). That's why Tohya always covering it for her. I can see that some people may be annoyed by her attitude. But at first, she didn't fully understand about the info dump from Shiroe and can't find a way to talk (without hurting the others or sounding too bossy) about it with her friends (Tohya+Rudy are leeroy jenkins, Isuzu was busy with her own inner analysis about her party members *not shown in anime*).

But no, what does she do when things get bad? Jumps right into the middle.. --> my opinion: Remember that her class is Kannagi. She can be an off-tank with her barrier. She used her emergency spell (with 24H of cool down) to create barrier for her party. With her barrier, she can take more damage and take the front line to buy time for Rudy's DPS. The barrier can absorb certain amount of damage with a time limit and she must use it wisely to avoid more damage. If she choose to go offensive with a katana, It'll burn her MP faster and she can't do anything to support the others. In the novel, Minori kept tanking even after the barrier dissapeared, and she got wounded.. full of mud and blood. Same with Tohya. She can't heal Tohya because she was too occupied in the front line and Serara was busy stalling one of the direwolf. She can monitor her party status again after Rudy annihilated the goblins.

" instead of doing SOMETHING she just stood there staring and crying" --> it's the biggest downside of full control encounter. Minori knew that even if she and Serara stacks all of their healing spells and barriers, Tohya will die no matter what. The damage input were to high for them to match. Minori didn't have experience and skills to turn the situation to the better, that's why she got petrified for a moment. It's already a losing battle and Rudy's heroic sacrifice saved them all.

I forgot about this : " I think she did it well but she needs to listen to her own advice" --> She already know all of the risk of her actions, because she already calculated it based on Shiroe's teaching and her own analysis as a Kannagi. Her lack of experience and her inability to turn the losing battles are her proof as a newbie (the second point is already impossible, imo. but some people blame her for this).
Modified by annettefelice, Feb 13, 2014 5:05 AM
 
Feb 13, 2014 4:44 AM
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Fiskhandlaren said:
The goblin invasion is quite boring i must say.


For now, they are just fighting the goblin army in the fields ^^..
Maybe raiding the Goblin King himself will be interesting. It's the first time in the History of Elder Tale~
And.. at least there's some development in the "raiding department of the story" :D

The battle guilds can check for a new quest or major raid later. At least after they stabilized the communication between people of the land and adventurers. They must looking and checking about the contents of the new expansion afterall..
 
Feb 13, 2014 5:45 AM

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annettefelice said:

My opinion : it's the anime who made her whine as a way to explain the situation. She really think that she didn't deserved to be saved because at that time, she can only become a burden to the others.The only experienced player in her friend list is only Shiroe. The most important thing : She know that her situation it's still better in Hamelin than roaming as a potential target for PKs. She can eat, and have friends in the same situation. That's why she hesitate to answer Shiroe's question about their condition in Hamelin. When in Hamelin, She and Tohya shared their limited knowledge (from Shiroe, when they played the game) with her friends and did their best to fulfill Hamelin's outrageous orders.
Tohya is the opposite : he wants to get out, but can't do so because Minori become the hostage and can't leave the guild hall. Both of the twin hold their principles and think that Shiroe is only an acquaintance.

First of all, it seems as if you cut my post into parts, responded and completely ignored the fact that I already disagreed (with reasons) to the arguments you gave.
I like Tohya because he still wanted to fight for his freedom and, like you say, didn't only because of Minori. Minori on the other hand does nothing. And I don't care whether it's for greater good or to explain it to viewer (they could have done it in a different way), this is just about her as a character. She does NOTHING about it. That's my problem with her. She just does everything she's told and whines. It doesn't matter if it will have a result or not but fighting trouble is the only way how to get out of it. Maybe if they fought more kids would join and Hamelin can't chase down dozens of kids. She didn't even TRY to do anything.

annettefelice said:
My opinion : It's her job as the field monitor + operator to watch the battlefield, so her party can put more focus to their job. She only join the fray when things get really bad or covering the others. Remember that she's suck at healing, not a good DPS, lower leveled than her party, and her build at the moment is mainly for supporting purpose. If we compared to Krusty's blitz group, Minori's position is the same as Takayama Misa (the woman who stayed with Lennesia). She watched the battlefield and gave information to Krusty.
You completely missed my point. I mentioned in the very same post that I hated it when she joined the battle. Her job isn't to stare nor it is to fight. Her job is to calculate, support and focus on battlefield. Wasting time by crying that her brother might die when SHE is one of the supports means she's a VERY bad support and even worse tactician.


annettefelice said:

My opinion : It's her personality. She's a very reserved person and can't express her feelings in a good way. She can be very blunt when executing her plan (She made Rudy mad in episode 15 because of her initial reasoning). That's why Tohya always covering it for her. I can see that some people may be annoyed by her attitude. But at first, she didn't fully understand about the info dump from Shiroe and can't find a way to talk (without hurting the others or sounding too bossy) about it with her friends (Tohya+Rudy are leeroy jenkins, Isuzu was busy with her own inner analysis about her party members *not shown in anime*).

I don't like her personality, your point? This isn't about being reserved. I usually never even write in chats unless necessary but even I know that bad idea > no idea. Because even bad idea can have a good result while no idea can't because it just means people will run around in chaos. They were there for several days until she was finally able to say something... Rudy could have died for real. It doesn't matter that she didn't know, what matters that she could have saved them about 5 days. That's quite a lot, don't you think?

annettefelice said:

my opinion: Remember that her class is Kannagi. She can be an off-tank with her barrier. She used her emergency spell (with 24H of cool down) to create barrier for her party. With her barrier, she can take more damage and take the front line to buy time for Rudy's DPS. The barrier can absorb certain amount of damage with a time limit and she must use it wisely to avoid more damage. If she choose to go offensive with a katana, It'll burn her MP faster and she can't do anything to support the others. In the novel, Minori kept tanking even after the barrier dissapeared, and she got wounded.. full of mud and blood. Same with Tohya. She can't heal Tohya because she was too occupied in the front line and Serara was busy stalling one of the direwolf. She can monitor her party status again after Rudy annihilated the goblins.

Again, you completely ignored the whole post and focused only on one part. I'll explain it this way because I was in a similar situation like her a few times. In FlyFF (mostly dead now) you have an AoE support class. Which means that survivability is quite high so it's possible to tank with the right buffs and build. I played this class as a solo/support so I had hybrid build. In a party I was doing just support because doing both means very fast death for all party members. Why? Simple reason. If there are monsters that can kill a hybrid support then they can kill anyone in the party. If the support dies, everyone else either dies too or has to wait for the rest to return from revival spot. Waste of time in both cases. Now, from PoV of a tank (with different class), there's nothing more annoying than a support who thinks they can do my job. Why? If they actually do aggro some monsters and survive, rest of the party is without a support, any rouge/irregular aggros have a high chance of killing party members and party members have no idea what to attack, not to mention tank is slowly but surely dying. In Minori's case this is both better and worse because she isn't the only support there. BUT she's the only tactician and she learned before how this role can change the coure of the battle. Yet she still ignored this and began fighting.

annettefelice said:
it's the biggest downside of full control encounter. Minori knew that even if she and Serara stacks all of their healing spells and barriers, Tohya will die no matter what. The damage input were to high for them to match. Minori didn't have experience and skills to turn the situation to the better, that's why she got petrified for a moment. It's already a losing battle and Rudy's heroic sacrifice saved them all.

Again, same problem as before. She does nothing and whines because she thinks she can't do anything. I've been in bunch of battles where a single heal/buff saved someone that seeing her just stand there made me want to hit her. They're not supposed to win, they're supposed to stall long enough for reinforcements to come. The problem isn't that she didn't know what to do. She was supposed to keep doing what she started (tactician/support) instead of doing everything else. The problem is that she decided to do everything else.

annettefelice said:
She already know all of the risk of her actions, because she already calculated it based on Shiroe's teaching and her own analysis as a Kannagi. Her lack of experience and her inability to turn the losing battles are her proof as a newbie (the second point is already impossible, imo. but some people blame her for this).

Like you said, she's inexperienced so how can you be so sure she knew what it will do? She was supposed to stay in her position as tactician/support. Everything went well when she did and it went awful when she stopped. Being a support and watching the battlefield can be very stressful and I get it that being there physically can make it worse but changing her role because she couldn't handle the pressure isn't about lack of experience, that's just stupidity. She knew very well how important her role is yet she still went DPS on monsters. That's not just about her, that's a betrayal to her teammates who expected her support. Holding formation is the best thing you can do in MMORPG in every situation. It did happen to me that my support ignored me without telling me just to fight monsters to get more exp. They died, I died. I'm not judging her based on assumptions, I'm judging her based on her experience and my experience with MMORPGs.
 
Feb 13, 2014 7:07 AM

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i swear they said in an earlier episode that there was a 30 second window or so where an adventurer could revive an NPC if they had died, kinda confused now
"Urushibara Ruka. The mannerisms and voice of a woman... No... More feminine than any woman. But he's a guy. Taller than Mayuri, but so very thin... But he's a guy. Looks great in a miko outfit... But he's a guy. It's already twilight And yet, it's so hot. The cicadas are crying. But... He's a guy."
 
Feb 13, 2014 8:51 AM

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The blast looked like it was quite far away and the wolves were also very fast so it's possible it took them more than 30 seconds to get there.
 
Feb 13, 2014 9:02 AM

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Minori is obviously a kid. They make dumb mistakes. They learn through trial and error. It's also one of the reasons I don't like watching stories focused on kids because I expect them to make dumb mistakes and act purely on impulse.

Just about everything can drive character development. That doesn't mean I have to like it, however. At least it looks like their arc will end soon though.
 
Feb 13, 2014 9:24 AM
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I'm very sorry if my post offended you in some way. m(_ _)m
I'm not really good at paraphrasing my thoughts and i admit that separated your quotes without paying more attention was wrong.

HikaruIzumi said:



Maybe Minori is plainly stupid as you said and her character is not good because of her naivete. At first, Minori was defeated by the apocalypse and lamenting the situation. She got kidnapped in the guild hall and fighting will only lead her to get PK'ed by more Hamelin members in guard- revived in cathedral- got dragged and killed again in the guild hall, plus they can torture her in any possible way. Maybe that's why she choose the safest option in her mind : do nothing, just whines in her heart lamenting her lack of determination. She's too afraid to die, and if she rebelled, Tohya will take the brunt... and he's already suffering more than her.

We don't know about the exact number of Hamelin members in the anime, but in all of the side stories.. all of them are jerks (they tried to rape landers. maybe Minori was afraid of this, too) . So let's leave this point because currently we talk about the anime :)

HikaruIzumi said:



I agree about your point. It happened in the novel, too. The children are busy with their inner thoughts and spend their day without even learn anything. All of them think that they did not doing their best but can't point where they got wrong because they think that everyone already do the job. You can blame Minori for that.

I view Minori's act of silence based on my cultural experience. Most of people around me (including my parents) are very reserved to the extent that they won't tell me their opinion until the last minute especially when they are feeling inferior/ can't voice their opinion / tried their best to be polite EVEN if they have a good plan in an already chaotic situation. I know that it sounds stupid, but some people are like that.

HikaruIzumi said:



I merged the quotes because I want to explain my pov of the battle :

About the battles, You got it right that their main objective is to stall the enemy until reinforcements come (about 1 hour). But Minori thinks that they can't stall the enemy any longer. 3 of their enemies are ranked as "party" (hobgoblin, dire wolves) and have higher average level than Minori's party (around 30 and 28 respectively), plus some goblin minions. Minori can't predict when will the goblin reinforcements come, and they're already got outnumbered. They can't fight in 100% strength because of the consecutive battles (playing whack a goblin around the city) and there's possibility that some of their best skills are still stuck in cool down mode, combined with the mental fatigue because they're the only one who defend that side of city. They still have MP because of Isuzu's buff (at her current level, Isuzu can only use around 2 permanent buff songs, There's high possibility that she used Meditation Nocturne *MP regen*, and something related to reduce MP usage, because they fight a long battles).

Serara's already occupied. let's leave her for now. Minori used her emergency spell * a sign that she's already desperate*. Even with emergency barriers, Tohya still in danger because the damage from 2 level 30's are very high. The minions will make it worse, to the extent that Minori won't be able to heal him (a Kannagi who focused more on damage prevention spells are the worst healer). So Minori tried to annihilate the minions to bring more balance (as in Shiroe's teaching). She needs someone pulling aggro to separate the minions from Tohya. Isuzu is the only the available candidate but her job is to strengthten Rudy's spell with her song so Minori choose herself to do the job. I think the reason why Minori did her "stupid" move is because Rudy's AoE spell (Frigid Wind) + Isuzu's Resonance Beat would hit not only the goblins but also the dire wolf and Hobgoblin. The minions may be dead but Rudy's aggro will instantly surpass Tohya's and the two creeps will change their target. Frigid Wind is Rudy's strongest AoE spell.
She did calculate her action, and told her comrades to focus to certain enemy (Tohya & Serara hold the lv.30s while Rudy kills the grunts). Tohya can hold the creeps without losing much of his HP when he's protected. He took damage again after the barrier dissapeared.

After succesfully killed the minions, Minori's reflex may be late to put another barrier to Tohya (She's too dependent to her UI, when she can shout the spell right after she done with the goblins). Her barrier can absorb some damage before she started healing, but the 2nd dire wolf escaped from Serara's grasp and run straight to attack Tohya. In this unexpected situation, Minori's view of the battlefield got shattered and she's not prepared to handle this uncontrollable situation (Yes, maybe it's her fault.. but I didn't see Isuzu using any buff spells to Tohya, either. Maybe her Ballad of Gullible Snail *lower enemy speed* is still in cool down mode or have long casting time, or she only can use 2 support buffs and the other is battle song to amplify attack. There's no detailed explanation about bard skills and her support repertoire. Most of Minori's spells are barriers, and the barrier was the only registered support in Tohya's status).

The result is as we can see.. she got petrified around 2 seconds after calculating the amount of damage. She's already used all of her available spells at the moment (purification barrier still in cooldown mode), and her mini healing spells combined with Serara's can't save Tohya. Serara & Rudy has a chance to attack, but they'll need some time to casting. Rudy was the one who took action.

About one spell that may change the battles, I think it's in Isuzu's skills. She has the permanent buffs skill she mentioned in episode 15 (Coward's Fugue, It can be used to disguise the damage of party members other than warriors to look insignificant). If Isuzu's uses this buff, Rudy can attacks everything and Minori can stand behind, but seems like that Isuzu's already using another buff and changing a permanent buff needs a lot of casting time and changing it in the middle of battle is not really effective. Isuzu already tried this off screen when she was fooling around in dungeon.

HikaruIzumi said:



Maybe her action is not reasonable enough for you. And I'm only judging her action based on her level, rank of enemies plus Shiroe's word about facing enemy at the same average level as the party (episode 15). To fight an enemy with "party" level, They'll need at least a party of the same level. So I conclude that the battle is already impossible for them.

She may be stupid as you said. but i think that she tried her best to save the situation. Being a tactician when the other comrades already exhausted most of their resource can be frustating, too.

And her stupidity made the story goes on...


Bheaze said:
i swear they said in an earlier episode that there was a 30 second window or so where an adventurer could revive an NPC if they had died, kinda confused now


30 seconds is Shiroe's prediction in full control encounter.
even if they have 30 seconds, Minori and co. can;t revive Rudy because he was far away. they need to run to him.
Modified by annettefelice, Feb 13, 2014 1:29 PM
 
Feb 13, 2014 9:33 AM

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Fiskhandlaren said:
The goblin invasion is quite boring i must say.

Do you like war tactics?
http://imgur.com/a/AkeYt
 
Feb 13, 2014 2:43 PM

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annettefelice said:
I'm very sorry if my post offended you in some way.

You didn't offend me, I apologise if you think I overreacted, it wasn't my intention. I simply felt like you were a fanboy/fangirl that's unable to see mistakes in their favourite character. Now, I understand that we simply see the same situation differently. I really don't think discussing this leads anywhere. The only thing we've been doing is discussing the very same thing but feeling differently about it. If that makes sense. Even after all of your points, I still think Minori messed up just by leaving the formation and her behaviour at the camp was... not alright. Although, I understand now why you think what you think but I'm simply unable to see the situation the way you do. I see the potential in Minori and I understand that she's just a child but to me it simply doesn't matter. I judge her as a character. In my eyes her nature, her actions and her decisions are simply bad in most cases. She has a lot of learning and growing up to do and I think that's something we both agree on.
 
Feb 13, 2014 5:09 PM

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A quick snippet from the translated novel regarding Minoris thought process:



Credits to the translators and baka-tsuki.

Modified by swordstriker21, Feb 13, 2014 5:18 PM
 
Feb 13, 2014 11:20 PM
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I love this anime so much. Everything just continues to build and build. This is anime is good and it isnt very flashy. The battles are cool but there not one character that has the 'I win button'. Everyone works so well together and makes for such great character development!
 
Feb 14, 2014 4:05 AM
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Bheaze said:
i swear they said in an earlier episode that there was a 30 second window or so where an adventurer could revive an NPC if they had died, kinda confused now

rudy got dragged very far. judge from explosion distance it will took a while to get there.
 
Feb 14, 2014 6:27 AM

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igotgame911 said:
I love this anime so much. Everything just continues to build and build. This is anime is good and it isnt very flashy. The battles are cool but there not one character that has the 'I win button'. Everyone works so well together and makes for such great character development!


Totally agree with you... everyone have their own role.
 
Feb 14, 2014 7:57 PM

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annettefelice said:
eternaltorture said:
majiloveanime said:
I actually hate the fact that Minori is copying Shiroe...


Same. This is why I hated Kise from KnB because he kept on copying other people's moves. I hate copycats, they got no originality.
I can't believe Minori went from a notebook to Shiroe's full-control encounter that quick... She needs to start doing her own thing instead of chasing after Shiroe. She is friggin' annoying and her character design is fug.


I think I'll defend Minori for a bit, the poor girl is still 14 afterall XD

Shiroe taught her about full control encounter as a part of his lessons, it's not strange for Minori to understand how it works because she got the talent and she's working very hard to prove her worth to Shiroe. And imo, she understand it even faster because she is a Kannagi.

Her personality and goals also become part of her motivation to gain control in battle. She has Tohya, who bounded to a wheelchair and she wants to support him (in the novel, Minori blaming herself for almost everything because she can't do more to support Tohya and relieving their parent's burden. She played elder tales because her brother and want to accompany him in his adventure).

Minori has a great sense of responsibility as the elder sister and if something goes wrong, she'll blame herself. Heck, when she got enslaved by Hamelin, she still blaming herself for her lack of knowledge about the game and because she is a beginner, she doesn't have any worth to be saved. Tohya shares this point, too but he have his own point of view (a bit simpler than Minori's).

After Shiroe saved her and continued his lessons, Minori idolized him. VERY MUCH. She wants to understand all of the info dumps from Shiroe and yes, she's chasing after his back literally. She has a very pessimistic way to view the world (imo, even worse than Shiroe) and wants to change it. Shiroe's teaching become her guide to do it because she doesn't have any alternative guide at the moment (yes I'm not joking). She don't know much about Elder Tale and her redeeming point is only her hard working nature.

If you hate her so much, yes.. her naivete in worshipping + using Shiroe's teaching eventually will become her downfall (another self blaming festival). It's her part of character development.
in Shiroe's pov (It's from the next arc, so I'll put it in the spoiler) :


Another reason about why Minori was able to do full control encounter is Kannagi's way of fighting. Minori can't heal as good as Serara. She relies on her barriers to protect her party. Deploying barriers need more strategic thinking, timing (barriers power compared to enemy's damage) and perfect understanding about the battlefield. She's suck at healing damage and not an effective DPS, so she compensates her weaker repertoire with Shiroe's knowledge. Her lack of experience is her main obstacle in this matter. She's already feel inferior to her party member because she is the weakest in everything *her level* (Rudy got more DPS).

In the battle against goblin, she was able to memorize everything because she fought without changing her party member so she knew about their skills and limitation. She has time to train her battle management between battle so yes, she got better.


tl;dr

You don't need to defend Minori to me, I know people like her for a lot of reasons, I'm just one of the few who thinks she's an utter eyesore.
 
Feb 15, 2014 1:24 AM

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Oh hey, something happens this episode. All right.

Good plot twist. Was somehow not expected that at the end.

Aaaand then the preview ruined it. Good job guys.

Other than that, I got my dose of "things happening" for the ep.
 
Feb 15, 2014 3:41 AM
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HikaruIzumi said:
annettefelice said:
I'm very sorry if my post offended you in some way.

You didn't offend me, I apologise if you think I overreacted, it wasn't my intention. I simply felt like you were a fanboy/fangirl that's unable to see mistakes in their favourite character. Now, I understand that we simply see the same situation differently. I really don't think discussing this leads anywhere. The only thing we've been doing is discussing the very same thing but feeling differently about it. If that makes sense. Even after all of your points, I still think Minori messed up just by leaving the formation and her behaviour at the camp was... not alright. Although, I understand now why you think what you think but I'm simply unable to see the situation the way you do. I see the potential in Minori and I understand that she's just a child but to me it simply doesn't matter. I judge her as a character. In my eyes her nature, her actions and her decisions are simply bad in most cases. She has a lot of learning and growing up to do and I think that's something we both agree on.


Agreed. we have different opinions in the same problem. I think that most of her behavior until now is explainable (and it didn't help that my way to argue made me like a rabid fangirl, and I mixed some spoilers from LN, too XD ). Let's leave them alone.
I do know her flaw. she made a bigger mistake than anyone did and I can't ever find an explanation about her for this (it's a big minus point, but obvious enough). It's the part of episode 20, so I didn't mention it.

Minori IS the strategist. her job is to monitor everyone's status. Do anyone think that she wouldn't notice Rudy's level growth? :) . She even exceed him (she was 26 when Rudy's 25). When they were fooling around, Minori didn't notice Rudy's odd behavior and think about him as a snobbish person, but she must had some suspicions when she opened the status bar. After battling for some times, she'll know that Rudy's growth is slower than everyone and guessed that rudy is a people of the land. The thing is, she never confirm her suspicion like Isuzu did, and didn't tell the others either. Even Tohya.

She still dragged Rudy to her last stand battle even when she know that he is an NPC. I got annoyed by Minori because of this. She had some chance to change her party member and put Rudy under Marielle's supervisions.
Modified by annettefelice, Feb 15, 2014 6:08 AM
 
Feb 15, 2014 8:50 AM
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When making arguments amount Minori, remember, they are facing the situation in front of them in reality. The situation can be so devastating for them to leave a mental shock and stop them from thinking properly. As human being, many of us will suffer the same results, why do you think stage fright is by far the most scary experience for them. The situation they are in is many time more scary than that, and the only way they can deal with it is through experiences which they have none of.

Lets not forget how fragile she is. The reason they join Hamelins was because she almost have a mental breakdown, which is not a friendly sight if you have actually seen people close to you break down. She is dealing with it, and is trying to get stronger emotionally, but people don't change that quickly.

Furthermore, this as a completely different effect from playing safely behind a screen where it is easy to maintain your mentality.

PS: It's actually pretty common for people working in the gaming industry to have mental breakdown and it does affect their health. My co-worker actually had one, never saw him ever again. The community really do go after you and harass you. I had a few people I work with quit from all the harassment.
Modified by LazyLuong, Feb 15, 2014 8:12 PM
 
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