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Poll: Revolutionary Girl Utena Episode 33 Discussion


Jan 12, 2015 4:41 AM

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Anelis said:
Utena lost her virginity in a recap episode....precious!
 
Jan 14, 2015 3:41 AM

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Well, that was weird i mean an important scene in a recap episode?
 
Jan 22, 2015 2:20 PM

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I thought this was just going to be regular recap episode, but I obviously guessed wrong. That ending... Why Utena, just why. You were my favorite character... ;;
 
Feb 18, 2015 11:50 AM

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In many ways it doesn't matter what the laws of consent are in this world. There's an entire episode where Utena wonders if she's a kid or an adult and doesn't identify as an adult, and even says that to become an adult you need certain kinds of experiences. Akio is clearly an adult and there's a power imbalance. He knew what he was doing, and earlier in the season he showed he obviously feels threatened by Anthy & Utena's relationship, which is probably why he is acting like her beloved prince to seduce her (he even mentions her nobility like the prince did.)

Thank you @ Excelsior for the link, I think that makes it very clear that no this situation is not black and white. Akio compared himself to Lucifer and the Devil in Christianity is renowned for his ability to tempt. Utena was tempted and played into Akio's scheme. She's also 14, naive, an orphan and doesn't have all the facts because neither Anthy, Nanami, nor the Student Council keep her in the loop about everything going on. Akio gave her a chance to be part of a family--given the fact he treated her like a little sister (and she's best friends with his little sister) in the end we should be disgusted with Akio not "disappointed in Utena."

I'm actually really surprised no one brought this up earlier but in the recap Kozue (Miki's twin) says:

"When everything around you is impure, you'll have to become impure yourself. The only way to get what you want is to lose your purity."


For those who watched Mawaru Penguindrum this reminded me a lot of what Yuri said later in the series about virgins being cowards and only people with experience can truly face the world (paraphrasing here.) Maybe the Utena after this will be different, because now she's and adult with experiences and (though I hate to say this, I'm just going with Kozue's thinking here) now that she's "lost her purity" she'll be able to find what she truly wants.

...but given the fact this happened with the devil of the series I'm assuming her road to self actualization and becoming an adult won't be that easy.
 
Feb 20, 2015 6:01 PM

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"Once it's done you can't undo it."

She was referring to cooking with this line, but it could also be applied to her deed with Akio.

Poor Utena. It was definitely NOT consensual; during the monologue/sex scene, she doesn't look happy at all and is clearly avoiding Akio's eyes, Plus she's talking about what to make for lunch of all things. And the most glaring indication? Akio is not responding to her! He's silent the whole time. There's also the brief scene where we see the road scrolling by with the word STOP on it, but that's too obvious.

Just because Utena didn't physically resist doesn't mean she wanted it. Not saying "No" is not the same as saying "Yes." She probably wasn't ready at all for this type of situation and didn't know what to do. And knowing Akio, he was probably fully aware of this. That bastard.
 
Mar 20, 2015 7:14 AM
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yubayubayubayubayubayuba

I can't help but feel that I'm supposed to be amazed or shocked or surprised or interested..? I'm only mildly amused. I don't know. That was a pretty horrible thing to do, but the show is still a complete bore for me. I'm not one to necessarily consider shock value as quality writing.
 
Mar 21, 2015 12:49 PM

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Utena is 14 and Akio is probably at least 10 years older....not only is he incestuous but also a pedophile

hmmm can't wait to see how this ends
 
Apr 2, 2015 11:58 AM

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THese are the episode that ruin a series for me
[/quote]
 
May 15, 2015 12:17 PM
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I find it fascinating that age of the viewer has a lot to do with how they interpret the sex scene in my experience. I haven't met anyone who watched the show in their teens/early 20's who interpreted it as not consensual: she doesn't put up an active resistance, she has shown an increasing (if awkward) comfort with physical intimacy with Akio, and of course she's nervous since it is her first time. Sure, it's statutory, but that's a technicality; it's not like she's immature mentally or physically where she isn't old enough to have sex or understand the ramifications of it.

People on a rewatch or watching it for the first time older than that more often than not see it as rape. A good article on why that is has already been posted, but suffice to say with more experience you begin to see that the lack of resistance comes more from conflicted feelings than hidden desire, that escalating intimacy reflects grooming behavior on Akio's part, and that nervousness is attempts to deter his actions by finding excuses for them to cut the date short and disociation during the act. It is a reminder that statutory with regards to post-pubescent individuals has very little to do with the reasons we assume it is when we are that age: that old dudes trying to get with attractive young women is creepy or it's just one more "contract" that you aren't old enough to agree to. No, it's about the power imbalance, the ability to manipulate the other's emotional state, and how ignorant teens are to their own maturity.

I don't think Utena would classify what happened to her as a rape: if anything she likely blames herself for allowing it to happen if/when she regrets it. That doesn't make it consensual though, and is a great example of how consent is nuanced (because humans are nuanced creatures.) Should be obvious, but if you ever have a partner who is behaving the way Utena did it should be a sign you should stop and figure out why they are not enthusiastic. Maybe it is just jitters and you'r e misreading them, but if you care about that person knowing they are comfortable and won't regret it is vital.

Also interesting but less clear cut: the divide on how people blame Utena for her weakness and/or how tragic they see this event being. Let's face it: 99% of us wouldn't have nearly as extreme a reaction one way or the other if this was a young chaste male hero lead astray and seduced by an older femme fatale, even if he expressed similar hesitance and we had just as much understanding of how manipulative the femme fatale is being. It says a lot about how we view sex and gender, and it always fascinates me how this series plays with and challenges gender conventions in ways that are only being explicitly being challenged in the West very recently when Japan has an environment far more restrictive as far as deviance from gender roles.
Modified by Grungehamster, May 15, 2015 12:57 PM
 
Jul 2, 2015 11:39 AM

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This show has the best recap episodes I've ever seen.
 
Aug 2, 2015 12:43 PM

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Welp Aiko just did the deed with a 14 year old and surprisingly i dont care. I laughed a bit when they had sex though(i dont care for sex in fiction)

Aiko is a total sleaze though and is basically ruining this series for me, now lets see if Utena manages to find her way.
 
Oct 3, 2015 1:46 PM
Kinkshamer

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That was... something else.

4/5
 
Feb 18, 2016 10:32 AM

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Wow i'm speechless...I'm really disappointed in you Utena.

This show really has the best recap episodes though xD
 
Feb 22, 2016 7:51 PM

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Akio probably has every STD known. And when he can't get T&A he probably humps his car or his star projector.
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Mar 20, 2016 10:46 AM

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For a recap episode, this was really good! It wasn't just pilling up the last episodes; it had content, symbolism, clues to something...

Ahhh... we all give our virginiy to someone, it just happens that Utena gave hers to someone she thought was good for her.

Ahhhrr but he is such a bicth and whore!!
 
Apr 12, 2016 1:17 PM

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Utena is a dumb fucking whore. This episode kind of ruined her character for me.
 
Apr 15, 2016 7:31 AM

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stand said:
This actually caused me a lot of pain.


Same here

AHH WHYYYYY!!!!
I had to dislike this episode. It was good but I didn't like anything that happened in it. Skipping through annoying recap to get the new scenes only to have that at the end.

It was kinda weird seeing my denial in action throughout the episode. In the first scenes with Utena I was wondering why she was in such a cute outfit. "oh, its like she is on a date, BUT NO! Utena doesn't have anyone to go on a date with. who is she talking to? oh darn, its not Anthy. it could be her friend Wakaba. But she is acting so weird. if Wakaba was with her it would be wakaba doing all the talking. could she be alone? WHO IS SHE TALKING TO? maybe she is lonely so is kinda talking to a picture on the wall just to have something to talk to. or maybe she has the monkey with her. That has to be it. She brought the monkey. yea, she is getting in the bed with the monkey now. there isn't anyone else she would get in bed with right?"
Then the final scenes.
it fades from black to her head on the pillow
"Whoa, what is this? She looks really pretty. I think she isn't wearing a shirt. this is oddly sensual. Why is she talking about food? Its like she is trying to find something off topic to distract herself. She has to be alone though, she would have her shirt on if someone else was there. What was that little nibble on her finger with the eye flutter thing!?! Why does it seem like she is having sex? she can't be! she is alone. There isn't anybody she would do this with. She keeps looking away from the camera. Its like she doesn't want to look at someone and is trying to find something else to talk about to fill the awkward silence. pay attention to what she is saying, maybe there is something important.
Then the part before "what is eternity"
WHOAA, WHAT WAS THAT!?! THAT WAS A CLIMAX RIGHT? AFTER ALL THAT IT CAN NOT BE JUST A CRAMP OR SOMETHING. WTF IS GOING ON!?! scene change to road. pause episode and go back.
What is this. what is going on. I gotta re-watch this. ahhggaksdk, this is a sex scene after all isn't it. I can't deny it. That last part just has to be the "climax." who is it with though?
road scene with, "what is eternity?"
SHIT!! she is naked and that dark skinned hand could only be two people. Its anthy! please be anthy!! Anthy confessed that she thinks of Utena as her prince and this happens. (all this time I know it has to be Akio)

The episode finishes leaving me feeling slightly dead inside as I realize that I can't deny what a terrible thing just happened. But "dead" isn't the right word. being dead wouldn't be so painful. also, I found out that the characters on the road say STOP when she is asking what is eternity. I don't think Utena wanted to do that. She didn't like it but she felt too young and immature against this dashing prince that she sorta fell in love with. I think she felt like if she said no it would be like telling Akio that she didn't like him or she didn't want to be a disappointment to him. He is way older and more experienced than her so i'm sure he could manipulate her into feeling like she didn't have a choice really easy.

all this ^^ has been some of my thoughts that I kept going over as I was trying to sleep the night of episode 33 and now I posted them the morning after.
This is the comment I posted right after the episode finished. I hadn't had time to really figure out what I thought yet so it is kinda short.

damn it! I didn't like this episode. I just want to be able to skip the recaps but they have to put stuff in that I don't want to miss. and then they had to go there... I was watching that scene thinking, "this is oddly sensual." but everything was so abstract. I just couldn't (or didn't want to) figure it out. and then at the end. Q_Q (there was a small part of my brain thinking "nooo, my waifu")
I feel that Anthy has wanted to tell Utena ...something... but can't work up the courage. wish she would just say it.
Modified by LibriLector, Apr 15, 2016 9:51 AM
 
Apr 26, 2016 8:53 PM

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Not you utena, why...

Goddam you akio.
 
May 19, 2016 2:29 PM

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Why is everyone calling Utena a whore or stupid? People make mistakes. Are people so caught up with a character being pure that they literally write the character off or hate them after something of this nature? Sex is a part of life and yes Utena is too young for it but so are the other girls who were put into the same situation. Utena is just another girl. Just because she's bold and prince-like doesn't mean she can't give into temptation from a guy she crushes on. From what I can gather it probably wasn't even willing.
 
Jun 20, 2016 8:51 PM
La Completionist

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Grungehamster, your post was an interesting read. Thanks.

And Akio... is just so twisted. Poor Utena, being caught up in his spiderweb.
 
Jul 3, 2016 8:15 AM
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NO UTENA YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CHOSEN ONE

This is why this show is so great. It doesn't pander. It punches me in the stomach and kicks me in the face when I'm winging on the ground.
 
Jul 3, 2016 8:27 AM
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spyrocoot said:
SharifEbeefE said:
In any case there was SO much symbolism and subtext in this episode as usual. I might need to re-watch this whole series one day to catch what I missed. And for those of you who didn't realize (I didn't realize til now), Utena was being raped; it wasn't exactly consensual.


If she was raped, then why didn't she resist Akio either during the act or while they were in the car? Seemed pretty consensual to me. The line at the end, "I never expected we'd end up doing what we did.", also points to the same conclusion.


Technically all sex between an adult and a minor is rape- regardless of circumstances. And put in the context of teacher and student relationship it's fair to say Akio would be put on the sex offender registry and never work in a school ever again.
 
Jul 4, 2016 2:06 AM

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He stole her. She's still a child. This is awful.
Modified by ShinyKing, Jul 4, 2016 8:47 PM
 
Jul 8, 2016 2:51 PM

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I'm kind of torn on this episode. I normally don't have a huge problem with recap episodes. Especially if they have really fun and unique framing devices like the last Utena one. And this episode had plenty of new stuff, I mean my god Akio has finally slept with Utena which is unsettling. But for once I had a real sense of impatience during the recap scenes.

Sometimes if like me you don't really binge watch, they can even be helpful to remind you of important details you might have forgotten. And there was a little of that this time but mostly I'm just really eager to see where the story goes from here and some of the recap scenes were just painful.

I'm a big fan of the racing across the end of the world scenes and this had some of the best. I loved all of Utena's little asides, you had a feeling you knew who she was talking to. But I like that she was speaking as if to the audience in a really intimate and so vaguely uncomfortable way. This can be such a rigorous anime to watch. Like someone else I find myself really curious what the symbolism of Anthy's artificial star gazing is. I feel like there was supposed to be something revelatory about repeating that opening scene but I just didn't get it.

It's clear though a rift is forming between Anthy and Utena. Utena has completely submitted to Akio's charms which is frustrating to say the least. And it's become undeniable that Anthy is NOT pleased with the situation but what she plans to do and how mad she is and at whom remains to be seen. Nothing to do but press onwards.
 
Jul 22, 2016 9:28 AM

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Utena is finally getting some character. She's been rather 'passive' more like a MacGuffin than a real person.

Do you guys think that Anthy set her up for her deflowering when she had Utena deliver those roses?

I've noticed that Anthy can lack empathy when the need arises. She's not the push over that we thought she was in the beginning.
 
Aug 6, 2016 7:16 AM

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ex_necross said:
Utena is a dumb fucking whore. This episode kind of ruined her character for me.


People like you are the reason why rape culture is still alive and kicking in modern society. You have absolutely no right to call Utena a whore when she is far and away the victim in this tragedy.

As others have mentioned, Utena is a fucking middle-schooler and is in no way able to give consent to having sex with someone as old as Akio. It would be different if her partner were her own age, because there would not longer be a difference in power dynamic, but Akio clearly shows the traits of a predator and grooms Utena into not resisting when he goes in for the kill. There's a reason why statutory rape is still rape, and the fact that you can misconstrue the situation that hard even in this day and age is mind-boggling. Please reeducate yourself.
 
Aug 6, 2016 8:48 AM

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suikaMUSIC said:
ex_necross said:
Utena is a dumb fucking whore. This episode kind of ruined her character for me.


People like you are the reason why rape culture is still alive and kicking in modern society. You have absolutely no right to call Utena a whore when she is far and away the victim in this tragedy.

As others have mentioned, Utena is a fucking middle-schooler and is in no way able to give consent to having sex with someone as old as Akio. It would be different if her partner were her own age, because there would not longer be a difference in power dynamic, but Akio clearly shows the traits of a predator and grooms Utena into not resisting when he goes in for the kill. There's a reason why statutory rape is still rape, and the fact that you can misconstrue the situation that hard even in this day and age is mind-boggling. Please reeducate yourself.


Except rape culture doesn't exist.
 
Aug 6, 2016 9:01 AM

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Fenryr19 said:
suikaMUSIC said:


People like you are the reason why rape culture is still alive and kicking in modern society. You have absolutely no right to call Utena a whore when she is far and away the victim in this tragedy.

As others have mentioned, Utena is a fucking middle-schooler and is in no way able to give consent to having sex with someone as old as Akio. It would be different if her partner were her own age, because there would not longer be a difference in power dynamic, but Akio clearly shows the traits of a predator and grooms Utena into not resisting when he goes in for the kill. There's a reason why statutory rape is still rape, and the fact that you can misconstrue the situation that hard even in this day and age is mind-boggling. Please reeducate yourself.


Except rape culture doesn't exist.


Except it does and you're a neckbeard misogynist in denial.
 
Aug 26, 2016 11:07 PM

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this is NOT a recap episode. it's a regular episode that contains flashbacks

suikaMUSIC said:
Fenryr19 said:


Except rape culture doesn't exist.


Except it does and you're a neckbeard misogynist in denial.

presuming a bit too much but still.... here here
 
Aug 26, 2016 11:10 PM

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The internet is THE place where people presume. How else do you expect people to understand whatever hides behind the masks of other users whose anonymity does not exempt them from taking responsibility for their actions?
 
Aug 26, 2016 11:34 PM

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suikaMUSIC said:


The internet is THE place where people presume. How else do you expect people to understand whatever hides behind the masks of other users whose anonymity does not exempt them from taking responsibility for their actions?

1. Why did you reduce my already small post to 'text'? It reads as a total disregard for what I had to say
2. I was actually agreeing with you much more than not. I was mainly referring to the 'neckbeard' thing anyway. That's just a stupid term that means nothing in this case. And maybe he's a misogynist NOT in denial? You can't tell. Anyway all that's beside the real point - labelling people does not resolve problems. And as evidenced you effectively killed any potential discussion on the issue, whereas if you had instead asked him to explain his stance maybe things would've gone a different, more civilized route. And if not, you still come out looking far better than he.
 
Aug 26, 2016 11:45 PM

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simo000 said:
suikaMUSIC said:


The internet is THE place where people presume. How else do you expect people to understand whatever hides behind the masks of other users whose anonymity does not exempt them from taking responsibility for their actions?

1. Why did you reduce my already small post to 'text'? It reads as a total disregard for what I had to say
2. I was actually agreeing with you much more than not. I was mainly referring to the 'neckbeard' thing anyway. That's just a stupid term that means nothing in this case. And maybe he's a misogynist NOT in denial? You can't tell. Anyway all that's beside the real point - labelling people does not resolve problems. And as evidenced you effectively killed any potential discussion on the issue, whereas if you had instead asked him to explain his stance maybe things would've gone a different, more civilized route. And if not, you still come out looking far better than he.


1. I reduced the quote to text because it was long and I usually do that to shorten it. It wasn't meant as an offhand insult towards you so I apologize if that was the case.

2. I used "neckbeard" to refer to a surprisingly large population of the internet who stay out of touch with reality and believe that the mass entertainment they consume is reflective of real world issues (also his avatar is literally spongebob with a neckbeard so...). Yes, that was an assumption that killed any argument, but I was not looking for a reasonable argument in the first place. First of all, you have to realize that he was the person who replied to me addressing another poster's extreme ignorance towards modern day sexism. Secondly, I'm tired of explaining to people why rape culture does indeed exist, and there are far more resources on the internet that much more justice to the pressing issue that I could ever do.

You're reading too much into a comment I made in the moment and overanalyzing insults on the internet. An anime episode discussion thread is not really the place to bring debates on the continued oppression of women in modern society; there are far better websites to do that on, and even then, nothing beats discussing the topic face to face, which is impossible here on MAL.

I'm sorry if I came off as patronizing, but it's just that I'm tired of dealing with people's stupidity on the internet and it's not really worth arguing with them on an anime site where I like to watch my Chinese cartoons without idiots infecting forum discussions. Hell, I shouldn't even have written this much.

Anyways, peace and no hard feelings.
 
Aug 27, 2016 12:38 AM

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suikaMUSIC said:

1. I reduced the quote to text because it was long and I usually do that to shorten it. It wasn't meant as an offhand insult towards you so I apologize if that was the case.

2. I used "neckbeard" to refer to a surprisingly large population of the internet who stay out of touch with reality and believe that the mass entertainment they consume is reflective of real world issues (also his avatar is literally spongebob with a neckbeard so...). Yes, that was an assumption that killed any argument, but I was not looking for a reasonable argument in the first place. First of all, you have to realize that he was the person who replied to me addressing another poster's extreme ignorance towards modern day sexism. Secondly, I'm tired of explaining to people why rape culture does indeed exist, and there are far more resources on the internet that much more justice to the pressing issue that I could ever do.

You're reading too much into a comment I made in the moment and overanalyzing insults on the internet. An anime episode discussion thread is not really the place to bring debates on the continued oppression of women in modern society; there are far better websites to do that on, and even then, nothing beats discussing the topic face to face, which is impossible here on MAL.

I'm sorry if I came off as patronizing, but it's just that I'm tired of dealing with people's stupidity on the internet and it's not really worth arguing with them on an anime site where I like to watch my Chinese cartoons without idiots infecting forum discussions. Hell, I shouldn't even have written this much.

Anyways, peace and no hard feelings.

Fair enough, my apologies. I've just seen 'text' used in that way before is all.

Thanks for the explanation. Didn't even notice the spongebob avatar, but that aside, I shouldn't really be complaining about your comment. From my perspective - I didn't even expect my post to get seen/replied to (still not used to MAL's new-ish notification system), so I guess like your other comment, it was just an in the moment thing. My post's main intention was to just agree with your insistence that rape culture does exist.

I'm with you on everything else you said. Peace
 
Sep 27, 2016 7:27 PM

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Smh at all these "Dissapointed in Utena" "Whore" "WHY U RUIN MY FAV CHARACTER" posts.
 
Nov 11, 2016 1:47 PM
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I can't remember the last time I hated so much an episode and got so pissed with an anime.
 
Jan 1, 7:29 AM

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Odd, I didn't feel rage; moreso, I'm just curious what this means for Utena going forward. I was more impressed by the setup of this episode if anything really.

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
Jan 10, 1:32 PM

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From the number of replies in this thread, I expected some important reveal in this episode, but I was tricked. The fact that Utena was with Akio was one of the very few possibilities, so it didn't really have much impact for me. I regret I don't have time to binge watch the ending. When will something finally happen?
 
Feb 1, 8:22 AM

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suikaMUSIC said:
ex_necross said:
Utena is a dumb fucking whore. This episode kind of ruined her character for me.


People like you are the reason why rape culture is still alive and kicking in modern society. You have absolutely no right to call Utena a whore when she is far and away the victim in this tragedy.

As others have mentioned, Utena is a fucking middle-schooler and is in no way able to give consent to having sex with someone as old as Akio. It would be different if her partner were her own age, because there would not longer be a difference in power dynamic, but Akio clearly shows the traits of a predator and grooms Utena into not resisting when he goes in for the kill. There's a reason why statutory rape is still rape, and the fact that you can misconstrue the situation that hard even in this day and age is mind-boggling. Please reeducate yourself.


Feminist ideological constructions aside, this episode is meant to elicit that uncomfortable feeling of innocence lost and Utena has been an almost holy symbol of "purity" against the corruptions of the "adult world" so it's natural that people are disappointed in Utena for letting go of her integrity and falling prey to Akio (who is just as much to blame).

Obviously calling her a whore is too much but the internet is full of hyperbole, just disregard.

Also she wasn't raped, she was seduced, there were never any coercion involved as far as the audience is aware at least.
 
Feb 1, 10:05 AM

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BlueBalls said:
suikaMUSIC said:


People like you are the reason why rape culture is still alive and kicking in modern society. You have absolutely no right to call Utena a whore when she is far and away the victim in this tragedy.

As others have mentioned, Utena is a fucking middle-schooler and is in no way able to give consent to having sex with someone as old as Akio. It would be different if her partner were her own age, because there would not longer be a difference in power dynamic, but Akio clearly shows the traits of a predator and grooms Utena into not resisting when he goes in for the kill. There's a reason why statutory rape is still rape, and the fact that you can misconstrue the situation that hard even in this day and age is mind-boggling. Please reeducate yourself.


Feminist ideological constructions aside, this episode is meant to elicit that uncomfortable feeling of innocence lost and Utena has been an almost holy symbol of "purity" against the corruptions of the "adult world" so it's natural that people are disappointed in Utena for letting go of her integrity and falling prey to Akio (who is just as much to blame).

Obviously calling her a whore is too much but the internet is full of hyperbole, just disregard.

Also she wasn't raped, she was seduced, there were never any coercion involved as far as the audience is aware at least.


I'm sorry, but there are things called statutory rape and age of consent. Since Utena is 14, she cannot give consent in any way so what Akio, an adult, did was statutory rape since they are not close enough in age for it to be legal. I suggest you read up on these laws so you don't go off thinking this was just "seduction". That is a dangerous mindset to have. Also, I'm not pushing a feminist "ideological construction", but something that should be common knowledge to an citizen aware of societal inequalities.
 
Feb 1, 11:02 AM

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suikaMUSIC said:
BlueBalls said:


Feminist ideological constructions aside, this episode is meant to elicit that uncomfortable feeling of innocence lost and Utena has been an almost holy symbol of "purity" against the corruptions of the "adult world" so it's natural that people are disappointed in Utena for letting go of her integrity and falling prey to Akio (who is just as much to blame).

Obviously calling her a whore is too much but the internet is full of hyperbole, just disregard.

Also she wasn't raped, she was seduced, there were never any coercion involved as far as the audience is aware at least.


I'm sorry, but there are things called statutory rape and age of consent. Since Utena is 14, she cannot give consent in any way so what Akio, an adult, did was statutory rape since they are not close enough in age for it to be legal. I suggest you read up on these laws so you don't go off thinking this was just "seduction". That is a dangerous mindset to have. Also, I'm not pushing a feminist "ideological construction", but something that should be common knowledge to an citizen aware of societal inequalities.


While Akio might have been convicted in an american court the narrative idea here is that Utena is seduced by Akio and what he represents so when you talk about whether or not it's rape in the eyes of the law I think you're missing the point.

Not that I'm interested in a discussion but for the record I would place the concept of "rape culture" in the same category as "class oppression".
 
Feb 1, 12:30 PM

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BlueBalls said:
suikaMUSIC said:


I'm sorry, but there are things called statutory rape and age of consent. Since Utena is 14, she cannot give consent in any way so what Akio, an adult, did was statutory rape since they are not close enough in age for it to be legal. I suggest you read up on these laws so you don't go off thinking this was just "seduction". That is a dangerous mindset to have. Also, I'm not pushing a feminist "ideological construction", but something that should be common knowledge to an citizen aware of societal inequalities.


While Akio might have been convicted in an american court the narrative idea here is that Utena is seduced by Akio and what he represents so when you talk about whether or not it's rape in the eyes of the law I think you're missing the point.

Not that I'm interested in a discussion but for the record I would place the concept of "rape culture" in the same category as "class oppression".


For the record, Akio would have been prosecuted in Japan because prefectural laws prohibit sexual activity between an adult and children under 18, which Utena certainly is. Regardless of the narrative, it is important to recognize that she is a child and was taken advantage of through unequal power dynamics (Akio is the chairman of Ohtori and Utena is a student). I composed my original response to rebuke an idiot who had the nerve or ignorance to call Utena, a fucking 14 year old who was taken advantage of by an adult, a whore. This is an incredibly toxic mindset which directly contributes to the continued proliferation if rape culture. Also, it is wholly inaccurate to compare class oppression to rape culture, since rape culture affects the livelihood of a whole 49.6 % of the earth's population. It is not merely a societal phenomenon, but a global one affecting attitudes toward women around the world. I don't have the time nor energy to get into a long argument with you about this, since there are resources online with which you can educate yourself, but equating rape culture with "class oppression" is a gross false equivalency.
 
Feb 1, 3:06 PM

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BlueBalls said:
suikaMUSIC said:


I'm sorry, but there are things called statutory rape and age of consent. Since Utena is 14, she cannot give consent in any way so what Akio, an adult, did was statutory rape since they are not close enough in age for it to be legal. I suggest you read up on these laws so you don't go off thinking this was just "seduction". That is a dangerous mindset to have. Also, I'm not pushing a feminist "ideological construction", but something that should be common knowledge to an citizen aware of societal inequalities.


While Akio might have been convicted in an american court the narrative idea here is that Utena is seduced by Akio and what he represents so when you talk about whether or not it's rape in the eyes of the law I think you're missing the point.

Not that I'm interested in a discussion but for the record I would place the concept of "rape culture" in the same category as "class oppression".


I think you both might be right. I totally agree with SuikaMUSIC about it being rape. But I think the anime might have been portraying her as just being seduced. or... maybe not. I can still remember that episode vividly and I'm sure that Utena did not want it to happen at all. She just couldn't go from hero worship (or something) of Akio to suddenly disobeying him.
But I also think it was meant to symbolize a lot like what BlueBalls said.
or maybe it was just a random thing they threw in the recap episode to make it interesting. If you take that episode out, it doesn't really change anything does it?
 
Feb 1, 3:36 PM

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LibriLector said:
BlueBalls said:


While Akio might have been convicted in an american court the narrative idea here is that Utena is seduced by Akio and what he represents so when you talk about whether or not it's rape in the eyes of the law I think you're missing the point.

Not that I'm interested in a discussion but for the record I would place the concept of "rape culture" in the same category as "class oppression".


I think you both might be right. I totally agree with SuikaMUSIC about it being rape. But I think the anime might have been portraying her as just being seduced. or... maybe not. I can still remember that episode vividly and I'm sure that Utena did not want it to happen at all. She just couldn't go from hero worship (or something) of Akio to suddenly disobeying him.
But I also think it was meant to symbolize a lot like what BlueBalls said.
or maybe it was just a random thing they threw in the recap episode to make it interesting. If you take that episode out, it doesn't really change anything does it?


I think if you could reach through the screen and ask Utena, she wouldn't consider it rape, but it's a silly question that's besides the point. No one becomes upset when kids duel with real swords while their friends do extreme Nascar laps around the arena but since sex and consent is a controversial issue people bring their moral guns to bear that's all.
 
Feb 1, 9:11 PM

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BlueBalls said:
LibriLector said:


I think you both might be right. I totally agree with SuikaMUSIC about it being rape. But I think the anime might have been portraying her as just being seduced. or... maybe not. I can still remember that episode vividly and I'm sure that Utena did not want it to happen at all. She just couldn't go from hero worship (or something) of Akio to suddenly disobeying him.
But I also think it was meant to symbolize a lot like what BlueBalls said.
or maybe it was just a random thing they threw in the recap episode to make it interesting. If you take that episode out, it doesn't really change anything does it?


I think if you could reach through the screen and ask Utena, she wouldn't consider it rape, but it's a silly question that's besides the point. No one becomes upset when kids duel with real swords while their friends do extreme Nascar laps around the arena but since sex and consent is a controversial issue people bring their moral guns to bear that's all.


You might be right about Utena not thinking it is rape. But that doesn't mean it wasn't or that she wanted it. She just wouldn't want to admit it or think of it that way. "It wasn't rape, it was only unwanted sex." aka, rape. only 12% of child sexual abuse is reported (nsvrc.org). If a kid is told by his parents that he is worthless and stupid, he would grow up believing that. If he gets beaten and abused he might think he deserves it. He would just think that he is stupid and being punished, not that he is being abused. And kids often don't want to admit things like that to people because they don't want to hurt their family, hurt friends, embarrass themselves, get separated from parents or abuser, afraid of repercussions, afraid to be the one to send them to jail, misplaced/ misunderstood love.

I doubt we are just supposed to see sex as another adult thing like the fighting and race cars. they are way too different to compare like that. Child molest and rape are real crimes that happens often in our world, but you never hear about children racing cars or getting into real sword fights. Those are things that adults do that are okay, adults have fencing and NASCAR. Kids think that is cool and imitate it with toys and play. Would it be ok for kids to imitate sex or rape?

There is also a bit of anime logic in the fighting and racing. You kinda have to suspend logical reasoning because there is no way that kind of driving and fighting could actually happen in real life. It's almost a joke, with how silly it is, but instead adds more creativity and feeling to things. It's not a bad thing. Its one of the fun things about watching anime. But sex isn't something that is explained away by anime logic and easily ignored as not real.
Modified by LibriLector, Feb 1, 9:28 PM
 
Feb 9, 5:25 PM

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There are a lot of things Utena doesn't understand and during this episode she definitely made a mistake - but this is kind of why I like her as a character. She can't fix everything and most stuff she tries to deal with are too complicated or difficult for her to do so successfully - and she knows it damn well, but tries anyway. Utena's relationship with Aiko is unfortunate, but she will survive.

LibriLector said:
BlueBalls said:


I think if you could reach through the screen and ask Utena, she wouldn't consider it rape, but it's a silly question that's besides the point. No one becomes upset when kids duel with real swords while their friends do extreme Nascar laps around the arena but since sex and consent is a controversial issue people bring their moral guns to bear that's all.


You might be right about Utena not thinking it is rape. But that doesn't mean it wasn't or that she wanted it. She just wouldn't want to admit it or think of it that way. "It wasn't rape, it was only unwanted sex." aka, rape. only 12% of child sexual abuse is reported (nsvrc.org). If a kid is told by his parents that he is worthless and stupid, he would grow up believing that. If he gets beaten and abused he might think he deserves it. He would just think that he is stupid and being punished, not that he is being abused. And kids often don't want to admit things like that to people because they don't want to hurt their family, hurt friends, embarrass themselves, get separated from parents or abuser, afraid of repercussions, afraid to be the one to send them to jail, misplaced/ misunderstood love.

I doubt we are just supposed to see sex as another adult thing like the fighting and race cars. they are way too different to compare like that. Child molest and rape are real crimes that happens often in our world, but you never hear about children racing cars or getting into real sword fights. Those are things that adults do that are okay, adults have fencing and NASCAR. Kids think that is cool and imitate it with toys and play. Would it be ok for kids to imitate sex or rape?

There is also a bit of anime logic in the fighting and racing. You kinda have to suspend logical reasoning because there is no way that kind of driving and fighting could actually happen in real life. It's almost a joke, with how silly it is, but instead adds more creativity and feeling to things. It's not a bad thing. Its one of the fun things about watching anime. But sex isn't something that is explained away by anime logic and easily ignored as not real.


One thing that is slightly amusing about that scene is how they get the "one person wants it, the other kind of does, kind of doesn't, and goes along with it anyway" dynamic right. If Utena wasn't as naive as she is (and as... underage) that scene had the potential to be hilarious.
Modified by Lease_of_Life, Feb 9, 5:37 PM
"I will become his world and will make him my world" - You really should know who said this.

"Firing at unarmed citizens is a feat that those without courage and a chivalrous spirit simply cannot accomplish." - Oskar von Reuenthal

"No way Spirited Away is better than Akira. NO WAY." - Kanye West
 
Mar 10, 2:49 PM

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people are in denial over the fact that utena was willingly seduced. the fact that she was willing doesnt make akio less of a pedo though. of course
somehow that all made utena more "real" for me
Grungehamster said:
Let's face it: 99% of us wouldn't have nearly as extreme a reaction one way or the other if this was a young chaste male hero lead astray and seduced by an older femme fatale

i am the 1%. in fact that'd have had a greater impact on me cuz i'd be able to relate more
Ad impossibilia nemo tenetur.
 
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