| Edit: Nevermind my long OP on the matter. It was probably stupid. I'll wait for other people to respond. |
ukonkiviMar 25, 2009 5:13 PM
 Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| If you care to explain, I'm kinda stupid with the english language and all, I would most probably have something to say |
| seeing women only as objects........that's the way i'd understand it, but english's not my mothertongue as well....^^ yeah i'd say it's on the one hand based on inferiority complexes and subliminal fear of women....and therefore also on the inability to be part of a deeper relationship....just my 2 cents.... |
 Take a look at the world and laugh. -Januzs Korczak |
Dorothea said: So what's your opinion on it, Ukonkivi? I think a lot of people call judging looks too easily as objectification, which means reducing people to their looks, not evaluating them. If nobody cared about looks at all, none of us would have a clear homosexual or heterosexual preference. But some people take it overboard where it feels like objectification, and so I understand how the term is so easily applied. But still, I think some people use the term too easily. A lot of my massive OP was talking about that. As well as the other things I'll go into. Honestly, I think it's still a problem that women are more objectified than men. Women are told by society to treat their looks as a virtue than men, and I see this as a problem. What from make-up, fashion directed toward women, beauty pageants, women are expected far too much to care about their looks. I see society as a whole objectifying women because of this. Women should not have to care more about their looks than men. I think sometimes the crying wolf about objectification actually makes the fight against objectification look bad. And by saying what I am, I'm both a bit worrisome I don't look like I'm against objectification for some people, and to others, seem a bit extreme. Though those people are usually too gender traditionalist for me to care. Dorothea said: (I know a lot of folks love Naruto and Bleach, etc. so sorry if I offended you.) And a lot of people hate it. No worries, that's a lot more consideration there for an overrated show than most people give. I'm entirely used to it and actually surprised to see someone not bashing on Naruto for once. And it does irritate me how Kishimoto really relegates women. Hinata stayed weak in comparison to her brother, despite already having loads of fans who wanted her to do well. And after time skip, I didn't see her grow much as a ninja, I only saw her bust size grow. Of course we can partially blame this on the Uchiha domination(we haven't seen much Neji either), which it's also problematic that they would focus so much on one clan, and that the remainder of that clan is all guys. The whole Sakura having lots of strength is kind of cool. But it's kind of disappointingly cut short with the feeling of "just technique" and "chakra control", whereas the guys are more likely to have "massive chakra". But it's better than them leaving her weak like I was worried. I don't know much about Bleach honestly, since I didn't follow much past episode 10. But what you say does sound pretty annoying. I'm at least happy though that women have a bigger role in these shows than Dragon Ball Z and such, where women fighters are almost completely absent. But a lot of Shounen(not that I don't think shoujo has plenty of it's own problems, but that's another story) have a long way to come, and I'd much prefer the majority of it be more like Soul Eater, where the women and men ability is almost completely even. I think they did a REALLY good job with equality in Soul Eater. Evens has Maka, who seems if anyone, the complete main fighting protagonist of the show, and male female weapon thing is reversed for Blackstar, where his weapon this time is a woman. And you see a pretty fair degree both men and women, villains and heroes, who are given a formidable and respectable power. Again, I hope more Shounen takes the path of Soul Eater. Instead of Naruto. |
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Dorothea said: (I know a lot of folks love Naruto and Bleach, etc. so sorry if I offended you.) Nice meeting you all, I've been waiting for this kind of thread. I love Naruto so much, but I wasn''t offended. I just have to say that it's not overrared, just popular, me myself gave it a 7/10. I love it for its good parts, but I admit it does indeed have bad parts like what we are discussing. Well about the female ninjas in Naruto being "weak," I think there's another perspective behind it that I have read and heard from somewhere: Kishimoto loves ordinary girls shining in ordinary ways, that's why his favorite girl is TenTen. Also, I have to disagree about Hinata's weakness, I found her inner strength beautiful. But I still have to admit that the girls in Naruto is mostly stereotypical and "designed" not to be superior to the male leads, it's frustrating to see that(that's why I only love Hinata). It's because it's follows the classic shounen formula and classic shounen taste I've learned from my friends: they don't like strong girls, they like sexy and pretty girls more. It's a bit unfair because I see in shoujo animes/ mangas that boys are portrayed quite well, except for "Ho Yay" and "Foe Yay" moments. One example in the classic shounen perspective the case about Rukia and Orihime. My "more mature" male friends like Rukia more because she's strong and wise. While my "less mature" male friends tell me that she's ugly compared to the cure Orihime with big boobs. Naruto and Bleach are better I think than Basilisk and ELFEN LIED, and many MORE animes. OMG Elfen Lied, I found it very offensive: Naked woman blowing brains off, it that badass? No, it's fetish fuel! Nyu being an innocent fanservice girls, Nana fueling lolicon. It has a potential in feminism, but eventually I saw they turned it as potential for ecchi. Sorry for Elfen Lied fans, sorry if I offended you, that's how I see it. I do agree that Caska is a great character. Personally, I love to commend Full Metal Alchemist as being a shounen with strong female opponents, bosses particularly. I recommend this awesome site to all of you: tvtropes.com, type any anime and you'll see some very good terms with satire and criticisms. I' have a lot more to post, but not now. |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| Lucy is a decent character on her own, her sadism is unique to her. Sadly, the loli-fetish fuel presentation of Nyu degraded her in my opinion. I think I must also mention Saber. She's beautiful, strong and very noble, BUT WHY WAS SHE PAIRED WITH SHIRO EMIYA!? Shiro treats her like a weak person and thinks so highly of himself as the one who is capable of "saving her" GRRRRRR In terms of "objectification," its irritating that the weight of female characters are unbelievable, and the boobs of course most of them time. As if they're setting up a standard of ideal bodies. But it also apply to males: notice the bodies of the characters in Street Fighter and Baki the Grappler. BUT, a very sexy character is fine with me if she's known not just for that but the combination with her cool/beautiful characteristics. Example could be Motoko Kusanagi and Nico Robin(for me), and Yu Lan and Yu Fan and if you know her, many girls from the Guilty Gear game. If done right, sexiness could be a really great asset to females, IF DONE RIGHT(but most of the time done in favor of male taste) |
danceljoyMay 25, 2009 6:43 AM
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
danceljoy said: Also, I have to disagree about Hinata's weakness, I found her inner strength beautiful. Oh, she definitely has some good parts. I was really moved by her determination in the show. Also the whole Byakugan thing was quite cool, but I think it's underrated, and she's an underdeveloped character. Like most females. Cool eye veins, eye powers, determination and all that, don't change the fact she's not given much forefront as a fighter. She's not weak of character, she's weak of ability. I wasn't really trying to argue that she was weak of character. I'm actually rather fond of her and several other female characters. I just think they're underabled, battle wise. Also, I forgot to go into and mention Tsunade. It's one positive thing that the Hokage of the Fire Village is a woman. danceljoy said: It's because it's follows the classic shounen formula and classic shounen taste I've learned from my friends: they don't like strong girls, they like sexy and pretty girls more. :/ danceljoy said: It's a bit unfair because I see in shoujo animes/ mangas that boys are portrayed quite well, except for "Ho Yay" and "Foe Yay" moments. Shounen-ai themes are not "good portrayal"? I don't particularly see either shounen-ai or shoujo-ai themes in shows to be particularly bad, even if it's for fanservice. Honestly, by the way, I could honestly do for a bit more SasuNaru/NaruSasu in the animoo. One kiss? Not enuff.:< danceljoy said: While my "less mature" male friends tell me that she's ugly compared to the cure Orihime with big boobs. I think ugly is too harsh of a word. And personality and looks both matter. But obviously looks must matter to a degree for people, or nobody would be either gay or straight. Having a penis or vagina does not determine personality. So obviously looks DO matter somewhat. I think though that their reaction was just a bit extreme. Ugly is a bit of a harsh word. But sometimes relative. I'd say that most gay men find women "ugly" and most straight men find men "ugly" to some degree. It's just a harsh word. So people get a little more irked by it. There is no objective beauty and ugly. The lower of my self esteem might get a little wounded by someone thinking I was ugly, especially if it was someone I liked. But I wouldn't think of it as sexist or objectifying. So long as the person recognized that there was all there is to me. To whether they were objectifying or not. I'm unsure. But it does indeed seem like they placed too much on Rukia's and Orihime's looks. But I sometimes wonder if that couldn't be just a case of bash overhonesty about looks preference, instead of outright objectification. Where does one draw the line exactly? And why? I myself, like Rukia's dark hair and dark eyes to contrast with her pale skin, "strong silent type" behavior in many situations, and, to be honest, instead of big boobs, a flatter chest. Hmmm...it's like I find their behavior irritating. Not sure if it's objectification or not. And not sure if labeling it as bad would make my a hypocrite. If it's a merely sexual sense that they like Orihime more, I don't suppose there's a problem here. But if they berate her character entirely based upon looks, then perhaps we have a case of objectification here. One thing I do see the problem of, is that some aesthetics are too established to the point that women are often given beratement based upon not fitting societal standards of looks. And that men are hardly even given the same value to looks. The standards of women's looks. Such as having large breasts, long hair, lack of body hair . And women are overall told again, to be prideful on looks and caring about looks, on a whole that men are not(I know I'm repeating myself, sorry). Society at large objectifies women with the gender role of making women's looks a value above men's. I think more people should appreciate other women's looks other than this wrought standard. Such as flatter chests. Unshaven hair. Short hair and even baldness. And for goodness sake, an emphasis on something other than looks for once, would be a much improvement. This is why I think judging women's looks at all can even be irksome to some people. Because it reeks of smelling like that massive double standard. The fact the women are told to care so much about looks, there are multiple things out there making fun of and berated flat chested women, women seeking boob jobs to feel more beautiful, women wearing make-up and feeling like they have to wear make-up, and men not. And beauty and an industry more catered and advertised to women more than men. Shows that objectification is still an overall issue. Just to think of a real life example of what I think was a showing of this double standard. And a clear case of objectification. In the 2008 nominations, people went on about Hillary would be a bad president, for no other reason than she was "creepy looking" to them. When looks has nothing to do with what will make a good president. In this case, there's nothing of sexual preference involved or liking boobs or not. It's a job of head of state. It's fine to me if someone finds Hillary Clinton downright ugly. But berating her political ability based upon that I consider objectification. Not quite the same in my opinion as "liking" an anime character, in certain contexts of "liking". danceljoy said: OMG Elfen Lied, I found it very offensive: Naked woman blowing brains off, it that badass? No, it's fetish fuel! Everything is possibly fetish fuel to someone. If you took away everything that was fetish fuel to anyone. I agree that female nudity is overdone in media, while male nudity is underdone. But say that the nudity in Elfen Lied is fairly unsexual. danceljoy said: Nana fueling lolicon. The issue of lolicon and gender equality is a completely hairy, messy one. So much so that I'll ask a few clarifications before throwing an assumption and assertion out there. Since it's been brought up, I'd might as well not fear bringing up some kind of 'lolicon material' versus 'feminist ideal' issue even if it could get a bit off topic, we already are to a degree. (I honestly don't two groups, Lolicons and Feminsts, are not necessarily irreconcilable, even though there is often some unneccesary tension between some feminist groups and lolicons(pretty much NOBODY of any political group has any viewpoint that does), so much that lolicons sometimes see themselves in an always direct opposition to all forms of feminism). What so much is lolicon fueling about Nana? Because she's a loli? Her nude scenes, I believe she had a couple if I remember. Were very few in comparison to the other characters. They are also unsexualized and child abuse of little girls is in fact a highlighted issue in the Elfen Lied series. As for Nyuu. I think there is a bit irksome lack of...self and assertiveness. She's basically a submissive blank. And a bit too much of a feeling of male power or fantasy there that could manifest itself needlessly. There's a lot more fantasy over control and exploitation of women there that could be with Nyuu, many times more so than exists with the "loli" Nana. danceljoy said: It has a potential in feminism, but eventually I saw they turned it as potential for ecchi. Sorry for Elfen Lied fans, sorry if I offended you, that's how I see it. I don't think that having ecchi necessarily makes something unfeminist. The most unfeministic things about female fanservice in anime, is the double standard that is placed. You don't see the same degree for men and further adds to the objectifcation of women on a societal whole. I'd say that Elfen Lied is still an incredibly matriarchal, and shaking bold and forward move against gender roles of women's weakness. Even if it does have some drawbacks, it's not as if the feminism label can be thrown out fully and negated. I honestly don't seek any of the unsexualization of women's bodies in ecchi, as a way of evening things out. I think simple more attention should be drawn to the double standard. And that more ecchi should have focus on men's bodies. But I will admit, it's nudity does serve a bit in societies double standard. Again, despite this, I think that Elfen Lied is a very forward series. danceljoy said: Personally, I love to commend Full Metal Alchemist as being a shounen with strong female opponents, bosses particularly. Ah yes. I can't confirm that. But I do want to watch more of that show. And reasons like give me more so. danceljoy said: I recommend this awesome site to all of you: tvtropes.com, type any anime and you'll see some very good terms with satire and criticisms. I spend way too much time on that site for my own good, honestly. If it weren't so off topic. And I weren't so worm from making such a massive post, I'd go into quite a few articles on the subjects related to this group. But I think I'll save that for another time. danceljoy said: I think I must also mention Saber. She's beautiful, strong and very noble, BUT WHY WAS SHE PAIRED WITH SHIRO EMIYA!? Shiro treats her like a weak person and thinks so highly of himself as the one who is capable of "saving her" GRRRRRR Hmmmm. I haven't seen the show honestly, except for the first episode. But this does sound like a problem. In multiple anime. Not just this one. Every time it seems like a woman is given strong, masculine qualities, she get's degrade or usurped or given feminine qualities in some way to negate this. There are multiple chances for a complete reversal of gender roles, but they so often blow it. There ought to be more men who just honestly accept their inferior position of being protected or "male damsel in distress" and a woman content with keeping the person to save them. Yet you constantly always here this "I'm a man" and "I'll protect you" stuff, in front of the strong woman. It's degrading to her strength and deviation from gender norms to do such a thing. Certainly sound irritating that it exists in Fate/Stay Night since one of the things I was looking forward to in the show was the strongwoman warrior Saber. I didn't want to have to encounter this problem again. danceljoy said: In terms of "objectification," its irritating that the weight of female characters are unbelievable, and the boobs of course most of them time. As if they're setting up a standard of ideal bodies. But it also apply to males: notice the bodies of the characters in Street Fighter and Baki the Grappler. I'm not really into bouncing boobs. But I don't have a problem with them. However, you're spot on with the "setting up a standard thing" like I've been talking about. Or at least, I agree with you. Mark for mark with these words. Can't a warrior woman just be a warrior woman instead of fetish fodder? The men and women fighters in live action shows, video games, anime, western animation, and real life, should be treated as the same. Not women alone being treated as sexual fodder and the men not. And there's too much ideal for the sort of things I mention earlier. Not just boobs, but body hair, muscularity(forgot to go into that one, I guess), make-up, and so on and so forth. danceljoy said: BUT, a very sexy character is fine with me if she's known not just for that but the combination with her cool/beautiful characteristics. Example could be Motoko Kusanagi and Nico Robin(for me), and Yu Lan and Yu Fan and if you know her, many girls from the Guilty Gear game. If done right, sexiness could be a really great asset to females, IF DONE RIGHT(but most of the time done in favor of male taste) Ah, thanks for clearing some of that up. Though, I don't think "for male taste" is honestly that much worse, if any, than beautiful being a quality for women. The fact itself that women are treated as needing looks more than men, is an inherently male originally appealing double standard and patriarchal function. The fact that looks can matter so much and cater to straight women as well is part of the problem. I don't care whether any show caters to heterosexual men's or women's aesthetic tastes. Everyone, male and female will always have their own aesthetic likings(that in my opinion, deserve to be catered to, on some level), otherwise people would have no clear homo or heterosexuality. The double standard itself of beauty is what must die. Anyway, I'm sorry for the wall of text I've probably just made. I certainly don't expect anyone to read all of it. |
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ukonkivi said: Also, I forgot to go into and mention Tsunade. It's one positive thing that the Hokage of the Fire Village is a woman. danceljoy said: It's a bit unfair because I see in shoujo animes/ mangas that boys are portrayed quite well, except for "Ho Yay" and "Foe Yay" moments. Shounen-ai themes are not "good portrayal"? I don't particularly see either shounen-ai or shoujo-ai themes in shows to be particularly bad, even if it's for fanservice. "except for SOME "Ho Yay" and "Foe Yay" moments." esp. in fanfcition. Sorry for that, let me make it clear: Shounen-ai themes are ok, Actually I love Ouran HHC. the thing is boys and also girls are disturbed if totally unrealistic pairings are paired: example is Naruto and his dad. Well of course there's also the unrealistic Yuri. ukonkivi said: danceljoy said: While my "less mature" male friends tell me that she's ugly compared to the cure Orihime with big boobs. I think ugly is too harsh of a word. And personality and looks both matter. But obviously looks must matter to a degree for people, or nobody would be either gay or straight. Having a penis or vagina does not determine personality. So obviously looks DO matter somewhat. But it does indeed seem like they placed too much on Rukia's and Orihime's looks. That's why I call them less mature. And they did use "ugly," and I was the one who was a bit hurt. They didn't seem to realize how heavy the word is because they said it jokingly. And they did not bash her, they see it as nothing at all. ukonkivi said: One thing I do see the problem of, is that some aesthetics are too established to the point that women are often given beratement based upon not fitting societal standards of looks. And that men are hardly even given the same value to looks. The standards of women's looks. Such as having large breasts, long hair, lack of body hair . And women are overall told again, to be prideful on looks and caring about looks, on a whole that men are not(I know I'm repeating myself, sorry). And beauty and an industry more catered and advertised to women more than men. Shows that objectification is still an overall issue. Hmmm...From what I observe women themselves set their own standards, many of my friends and me included dress up to impress other girls, not the boys. It's a matter of self-esteem. "Men's look doesn't matter" is a myth, yes it is. I read it from many sources. In a magazine, face, height and abs are three of their top 5 insecurities. And they really get mad if you say something bad about their hair, honestly. I think society has changed; my male cousins are more vain than me. I just think that traditional views are still hard to forget. BUT it is also a fact that from the start of humanity, women are considered beautiful. To many, that is their pride. ukonkivi said: danceljoy said: OMG Elfen Lied, I found it very offensive: Naked woman blowing brains off, it that badass? No, it's fetish fuel! Everything is possibly fetish fuel to someone. If you took away everything that was fetish fuel to anyone. I agree that female nudity is overdone in media, while male nudity is underdone. But say that the nudity in Elfen Lied is fairly unsexual. m I'd say that Elfen Lied is still an incredibly matriarchal, and shaking bold and forward move against gender roles of women's weakness. But I will admit, it's nudity does serve a bit in societies double standard. Again, despite this, I think that Elfen Lied is a very forward series. Sorry again for not being able to write my whole point at a single post. I have nothing against Lolicon and ecchi in general. But I find Elfen Lied as an offensive Ecchi. Maybe it's a matter of perspective in an artistic sense, not from our standards, that we somehow disagree with these series' themes. But in the end, Lucy loves Kouta, Mariko and Nana love their father showing the characteristic of women needing a strong figure in their lives. It's a fact, a fact I repeat, that MOST, not all, women needs a strong figure and most of the times men fit that(fathers, brothers, lovers), or rather, they think they do, but other women and religion fit too. Men consider that as weakness, I disagree. But on their side, it is a fact that they also have tons to weaknesses that they don't want to admit. I know you you already know those. ukonkivi said: Certainly sound irritating that it exists in Fate/Stay Night since one of the things I was looking forward to in the show was the strongwoman warrior Saber. I didn't want to have to encounter this problem again. Still enjoyable. Watch it, you'll be happy at the end justifies it I think. ukonkivi said: Ah, thanks for clearing some of that up. Though, I don't think "for male taste" is honestly that much worse, if any, than beautiful being a quality for women. The fact itself that women are treated as needing looks more than men, is an inherently male originally appealing double standard and patriarchal function. The fact that looks can matter so much and cater to straight women as well is part of the problem. Big boobs is an asset for both genders. What's irritating is women warriors fighting in bikinis or ninjas in basilisk fighting without bras for the boobs to bounce (hence, male taste). And their boobs are big, that must have hurt. I remember arguing with my male friend; Me: Basilisk is really good, but kunoichi with those big boobs fighting without bras is totally unrealistic and must have hurt Him: Why? It's more comfortable that way for them *chuckles* Me: No it's not! You don't know! Him: Why!? I don't understand! *Surveys other girls but afterwards still can't understand why women are more comfortable fighting with bras* ukonkivi said: Anyway, I'm sorry for the wall of text I've probably just made. I certainly don't expect anyone to read all of it. No prob it's okay. To summarize: I think we almost have the same ideologies, but we differ in artistic tastes. We can also start a thread with this horrible site:http://www.menarebetterthanwomen.com/ |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
Dorothea said: Kenichi REFUSES to fight her! Even though she's incredibly strong, all he'll do is stand there and block her kicks, because fighting a girl goes against his principles. What's more, when she finally gives up on fighting him and goes her way, from her expression, she looks like she's at peace somehow, or inspired because she'd met a guy who'd stuck to his principles. I probably would've finished Kenichi and given it a 9, but with that scene, the mangaka made the hero totally hateful for me. I just wanted her to kick him to death. I never read or watched that show but I guess I have to say something: chivalry or principles is a different issue from objectification. It's a case to case basis; some men refuse to fight women because they see them as weak, some refuse because they won't feel victorious fighting a physically disadvantaged opponent. Note that the second one also include children, the sick or the elderly. But of course, I don't know what category Keichi belongs too, but if he's from the discriminating one let us bash him! (joke) Bad is example is Shiro Emiya, I swear. A chivalrous principle is honorable in its own way but other principles as well are just as notable: Guts is a good example of an "subverted chivalry;" he fought Caska seriously and never mentioned her female-ness in battle. But probably my favorite "subverted chivalry" example is Zoro from One Piece. He saw Kuina as a rival and worked so hard to be able to beat her, not caring if she's a girl. |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| Well, going by Dorothea's first post, what I understood was that it's better to have the absurd, plain to see objectification, as opposed to the deep-seated sexism. I may have misunderstood what Dorothea was trying to say, but this is the way I look at it. As absurd as I think harem anime, and stuff like Ikkitousen are, the blatant objectification and sexism is just mindless entertainment. I find that much less bothersome than the sexism that's not so obvious. Now, I think the whole thing of "girls should look pretty" is a seperate issue from objectification. The two are certainly related, but I think objectification has more to do with the idea that "[insert group here] should be seen, not heard." It's more about the idea that you should be quiet, subservient, and look presentable. I can't imagine trying to make a woman be like that. |
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ichikiba said: Now, I think the whole thing of "girls should look pretty" is a seperate issue from objectification. The two are certainly related, but I think objectification has more to do with the idea that "[insert group here] should be seen, not heard." It's more about the idea that you should be quiet, subservient, and look presentable. I can't imagine trying to make a woman be like that. The "girls should look pretty" is very general. And blatant objectification in harem animes may be mindless entertainment to boys, but actually offensive to many girls. Hence, objectification can also be said as "seeing the female body as an object of entertainment." Again repeat, sexy characters are sometimes fun, but when girls, especially in hentai works, are depicted as mindless, innocent, stupid, squeaky characters to be as appealing as possible to sexually fetishes without any or little sense of HUMANITY, that is objectification. The idea of being "quiet, subservient, and look presentable" is an entirely different issue indeed, it's more of traditional, cultural, and religious issue; and those three things should be respected. Actually, it is seen as dignifying women or beautifying them from within. I'm made to be like that by my family and I'm perfectly happy about it. It's not objectification. |
danceljoyJun 13, 2009 8:36 PM
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
danceljoy said: ichikiba said: Now, I think the whole thing of "girls should look pretty" is a seperate issue from objectification. The two are certainly related, but I think objectification has more to do with the idea that "[insert group here] should be seen, not heard." It's more about the idea that you should be quiet, subservient, and look presentable. I can't imagine trying to make a woman be like that. The idea of being "quiet, subservient, and look presentable" is an entirely different issue indeed, it's more of traditional, cultural, and religious issue; and those three things should be respected. Actually, it is seen as dignifying women or beautifying them from within. I'm made to be like that by my family and I'm perfectly happy about it. It's not objectification. If taken to an extreme, then yes it can be. If the woman is made to be quiet and subserient to the point that she has no freedom of expression, then I would call that objectification. Sorry I didn't clarify. danceljoy said: The "girls should look pretty" is very general. And blatant objectification in harem animes may be mindless entertainment to boys, but actually offensive to many girls. Hence, objectification can also be said as "seeing the female body as an object of entertainment." Again repeat, sexy characters are sometimes fun, but when girls, especially in hentai works, are depicted as mindless, innocent, stupid, squeaky characters to be as appealing as possible to sexually fetishes without any or little sense of HUMANITY, that is objectification. Again, I need to make sure I say what I'm thinking more clearly. Some act as though objectification in pornagraphy, and this would probably include ecchi as well, is harmful to society, because it supposedly makes the people who view it think that women actually are objects. The people who believe this seem to be under the assumption that most of humanity is unable to tell the difference between a stupid little movie or tv show, and the real world. I'm a guy with a healthy sex drive, so it's no secret that I've looked at pornagraphy. You probably could've assumed that much without me saying. So, I know quite well how the industry portrays women. However, I assure you that I can differentiate between an actress acting and a real life woman. Also, how about the way men are portrayed in pornography? We just look like all we want to do is have sex. Did you get a sense of humanity from the last guy you saw in a porn, or an ecchi anime? In both of these media, the entire point is sex. I don't deny that it's objectification, not only of women, but all people. I just don't see it as harmful, at least on a societal level, because we can tell the difference between TV and real life. As for it being personally offensive to women, I can certainly understand that. I just don't really know what else to say about it. |
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ichikiba said: Again, I need to make sure I say what I'm thinking more clearly. Some act as though objectification in pornagraphy, and this would probably include ecchi as well, is harmful to society, because it supposedly makes the people who view it think that women actually are objects. The people who believe this seem to be under the assumption that most of humanity is unable to tell the difference between a stupid little movie or tv show, and the real world. Also, how about the way men are portrayed in pornography? We just look like all we want to do is have sex. Did you get a sense of humanity from the last guy you saw in a porn, or an ecchi anime? In both of these media, the entire point is sex. I don't deny that it's objectification, not only of women, but all people. I just don't see it as harmful, at least on a societal level, because we can tell the difference between TV and real life. As for it being personally offensive to women, I can certainly understand that. I just don't really know what else to say about it. I admit that you're actually right, I'm afraid I failed to see that mindless sex drive is also objectification. An probably my greatest weakness is that I never watched porn myself (I've only seen hentai scans...unintentionally when browsing fanarts) I've been scarred by blatant rape and torture I guess from the limited things I've seen. About porn, both men and women themselves do it for money... About ecchi, sometimes it's actually funny when they repeat themes such as young boys having perverted thoughts about girls who had no idea they're actually giving them those urges. It's natural, no issue at that. It's good thing that you understand that women get offended. But I also understand that some boys do enjoy ecchi/porn as much as some girls enjoy yaoi despite knowing that there are people who are offended by those. It's natural, that's why I tend to criticize the stuff itself rather than the people who enjoy that. |
danceljoyJun 15, 2009 5:56 AM
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
danceljoy said: It's good thing that you understand that women get offended. But I also understand that some boys do enjoy ecchi/porn as much as some girls enjoy yaoi despite knowing that there are people who are offended by those. It's natural, that's why I tend to criticize the stuff itself rather than the people who enjoy that. That's pretty much what I wanted to say, but I didn't want to sound insenstive by saying "we all get offended by something, and it's something we just have to deal with sometimes." Also, I greatly appreciate that you criticize what it is that offends you, rather than the people who find enjoyment in the same thing. |
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| Obviously "objectification" isn't nearly done as much as it was in the past during the early centuries like the 1700s. However, that doesn't mean it's not still practiced in the 21st century. It's obviously wrong for someone be it a male or even a female, to see someone else as a personal object for them to do whatever he or she wants with them. I believe though that there are certain degrees to "objectification" though. For instance, there's the really horrible end of the spectrum where a woman is used as though she was an everyday object, something that can be tossed around, ignored, and then discarded the next day. But on the other end of the spectrum I feel there's a more prideful but not abusive type of objectification. Example. My boyfriend absolutely loves me and he's told me that he enjoys showing me off to his friends, family, and to the general public whenever we go off. I don't take offense to this though because he doesn't see me as an object but as someone that's special to him and that he's proud to be with and therefore he wants to show to the world that he's the lucky guy that got me. So my opinion on it depends on the situation at that time. Yes it can most definitely be a horrible, sexist, and terrible thing, but then again it may not be. |
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| You make some really good points Ethereal and I do agree with you on a lot of it. Especially about the first part in which you talk about how women dress. I was raised to dress conservatively and modestly (includes no tattoos) and to not put myself out there and look "trashy". It does seem nowadays that the way women dress is getting worse and worse and even a lot of young girls are starting to dress in a manner that wasn't really seen a couple of decades ago. I sure as hell know that when I was in elementary school about 15 years ago, girls did not dress the way they dress now. Lol And yes, for those of you who read Ethereal's VERY first statement about a male's sex drive...it's completely true. I've discussed it in a humorous manner with my boyfriend, and he's bluntly said that his sex drive is ridiculous. Lol Now obviously mine isn't, but I'm not in my 30's yet so that's yet to be seen. And yes, women do objectify men. That's true and honestly, I didn't think about that before. However, I'm kind of proof that there are women who will date and marry a man financially below her and so is my brother's girlfriend. I mean, it's not that my brother and my boyfriend are poverty stricken, but they are financially lower than myself and my bro's girlfriend. And yes, our relationships are very serious and we do plan on getting married. But I think saying that women "demand men who they can use as a step up the 'success' ladder" is somewhat harsh and obviously not completely true. Yes, women prefer to marry men who are successful and well-off, but then again there are those relationships in which a woman is marrying out of love and their partners social status isn't the major player. I don't know...it's kind of hard for me to say what I want to say without it coming out in a confusing manner. I just hope that people don't think ALL women are like that because I don't classify myself as that type of young woman. |
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| This is a trailer for the video that taught me the definition of objectification and convinced me of the harm it causes. I think it's a great video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWKXit_3rpQ&feature=youtu.be |
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heartpunch said: This is a trailer for the video that taught me the definition of objectification and convinced me of the harm it causes. I think it's a great video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWKXit_3rpQ&feature=youtu.be Nice, +1 |
Dorothea said: Even though I'm pretty hardcore when it comes to hating sexism in anime, I have to say that objectification doesn't really bother me. I feel that objectification in anime doesn't really insult the actual female viewers. I'll try to explain what I mean... I've quit shows including Strongest Disciple Kenichi, Bleach, Naruto, and Seirei Moribito because of what I felt was pretty subtle sexism. For instance, with Naruto, what killed my interest was the early stages of the tournament. Let's face it. Not one of those girls had a decent power. All the cool powers were reserved for male characters. If the artist doesn't want to waste cool powers on the girls, then he doesn't need to make them ninjas. In fact, I wouldn't even be bugged if the manga/anime just stated: "Women are weak, they can't be ninjas." But with that tournament, I really felt like he was just placating his female audience. Some artists don't seem to respect their female readers and think as long as they throw in a female warrior, we'll be happy, even if she's totally weak and has really lame powers. Like with Bleach, I was so pissed that in the first arc in Soul Society, Yoruichi and the female captain are paired off to fight, like girls can only fight girls, and boys can only fight boys. And I was beyond pissed that that entire fight was eclipsed by the melodrama of their relationship and one of them crying at the end. I don't remember any of the fights between males ending with anyone in tears. Then take a show like Ikkitousen, that has what I think you mean by objectification. Sure, the girls have huge boobs and are always tearing off each others' clothes, but it's totally on the surface and unapologetic. I don't get that same feeling of the artist thinking his female readers are idiots. And anyway, I think men are also objectified in a lot of shoujo--they're almost always tall, broad-shouldered, and gorgeous, right? So what's your opinion on it, Ukonkivi? (I know a lot of folks love Naruto and Bleach, etc. so sorry if I offended you.) While I agree with most of the points here, what I don't get is you mentioned Seirei no Moribito is sexist. I agree the world in Seirei no Moribito is a bit sexist but Balsa proved them wrong and most of the characters respect Balsa. |
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