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Poll: Casshern Sins Episode 23 Discussion


#1
Mar 10, 2009 5:55 PM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
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This would have made a fine ending episode, with the mad-as-a-march-hare Luna reaching out to Braiking Boss to "start a new world together". (The exact same thing that she offered to Casshern but was rebuffed.) But instead it appears that we will get a final showdown between Casshern and Braiking Boss next episode.

I've got to admit, that scene of Luna dragging the huge broken sword was very memorable - she is the picture of a little nightmare.
 
#2
Mar 12, 2009 1:37 PM

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This scene look for me like a little Claymore girl. :)
I prefer the ending of the episode with the two deaths of Leda & Dio together.
Here
 
#3
Mar 12, 2009 3:42 PM

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Yeah, would have been a pretty good ending ep. Luna picking up that huge blade was a bit shocking and unbelievable :D

Possible light spoiler
 
#4
Mar 12, 2009 6:18 PM

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Kvakond said:
Yeah, would have been a pretty good ending ep. Luna picking up that huge blade was a bit shocking and unbelievable :D

Possible light spoiler


Ever since Luna came back, I saw her scary and psychotic. So, that didn't really surprise me.

 
#5
Mar 13, 2009 3:23 PM

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Awesome episode.

I can't (dont want to) believe that the next one should be the last...
I really hope that there will be an OVA or something like that since I cant imagine that they can answer all questions in just one episode...
 
#6
Mar 13, 2009 10:27 PM

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I'm actually kind of hoping for a 2nd series. It just doesn't seem as though they can do a good job of finishing the story without a second series.
 
#7
Mar 14, 2009 1:11 PM

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So, I really am leaning towards liking this episode, except for the fact that a lot of the inconsistencies in this world take a lot of precedence.

Luna - This is the same one from the beginning from the show, yet she is completely different. Did she grant eternal life in the beginning? Casshern "killiing" her caused everyone else to ruin, but now, even though she can grant eternal life, they can still reek of death? Doesn't make sense.

Ringo- Seemingly ends up not being important at all. Most likely Leda's child, but it doesn't really even matter. Also, she runs happily to Oji when the last time we saw her, she was running away from him.

Leda- How did she change like this? This also calls to attention Dune's sudden metamorphosis and reversion earlier in the show. What is that all about?

Themes- So the them really is "Life sucks and then you die." Yet we spend so much time on the themes of hope and what ruin brought to some people. I'm inclined to like some of what went on, but again, it just isn't focused enough. They did do a good job rounding stuff in with Dio and Leda though.

Braiking Boss - I don't understand why if he has been searching for Luna did he order her death in the first place. I hope that the next episode clearly defines his character, because he is looking rather useless right now.

This is probably the best episode since the one with Jin, but I don't think that says much.
 
#8
Mar 14, 2009 3:13 PM

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noteDhero said:
So, I really am leaning towards liking this episode, except for the fact that a lot of the inconsistencies in this world take a lot of precedence.

Luna - This is the same one from the beginning from the show, yet she is completely different. Did she grant eternal life in the beginning? Casshern "killiing" her caused everyone else to ruin, but now, even though she can grant eternal life, they can still reek of death? Doesn't make sense.

Ringo- Seemingly ends up not being important at all. Most likely Leda's child, but it doesn't really even matter. Also, she runs happily to Oji when the last time we saw her, she was running away from him.

Leda- How did she change like this? This also calls to attention Dune's sudden metamorphosis and reversion earlier in the show. What is that all about?

Themes- So the them really is "Life sucks and then you die." Yet we spend so much time on the themes of hope and what ruin brought to some people. I'm inclined to like some of what went on, but again, it just isn't focused enough. They did do a good job rounding stuff in with Dio and Leda though.

Braiking Boss - I don't understand why if he has been searching for Luna did he order her death in the first place. I hope that the next episode clearly defines his character, because he is looking rather useless right now.

This is probably the best episode since the one with Jin, but I don't think that says much.


While there are some inconsistencies, I think I can (maybe) address some of the ones you brought up.

1) Luna- I think the reason everyone reeks of death even though they are given eternal life is, because like Casshern says, living eternally isn't a life. They were only drinking from the "fountain" that is Luna and not living on their own. So while they might exist in physical form for all eternity, they will never truly be living.

2) Ringo- No clue here...I mean those kids a few episodes back gave her something that was supposed to be special right (the ones that turned to stone afterward or whatever)? Hopefully we'll see her be of some importance...

3) Leda- I'm pretty sure Leda changed because she drank too much of Luna's blood which, if you think about it kind of makes sense. If Luna is giving out false life, and was also the cause of ruin (I'm pretty sure she said she projected her death onto the world and gained immortality), then her blood being a poison would be...poetic. I think her physical transformation is just to help further show the evil inside of Luna. While on the surface (a little of her blood) she seems like a good thing, if you look hard enough (drink more blood) you realize shes evil. I think dune losing his human like form for that weird kind of rainbow face was just him ruining, and then drinking a little of her blood restored him. He made sure not to drink enough to be immoral I'm pretty sure, so that's why he didn't end up like Leda.

4) Themes- I kind of see the overall theme as more along the lines of: "Life has hardships, but by overcoming them we can truly live". Life was hard, but the only robots that seemed to have a "fire in them", as Casshern put it, were the ones that struggled against everything and lived out their lives the best way they could.

5) Braiking Boss- I'm pretty sure that Luna wasn't immortal in the past. Her ordered her death because she was threatening his regime and he wanted to remain as an absolute king. Now, the only way for him to become an absolute king is to become immortal...you can't really be a king if you're going to break down in 20 minutes now can you :P. I feel like his goals have remained largely the same.
 
#9
Mar 14, 2009 3:45 PM

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My rebuttal

1) Casshern isn't "living" either and she asked him to say with her. Leda was as rotten as ever at the end, but for whatever reason, she didn't reek of death until this episode.

2) That's right! What happened to that rainbow stone?

3) Dune outright refused Luna's blood. He said so to Casshern.

4) The problem there is that Dio didn't overcome his hardships, and yet he was one of the ones Casshern talked about. Also, shouldn't there be some hope for Casshern, who at the least could overcome his despair in not living? That's what messes up the themes, what they have done with Luna and Casshern fly in the face of everything they are trying to present, and since they are protagonist/antagonist, there is no excusing the problems.

5) Luna was no real threat in the beginning. We still aren't even completely sure about her function because of what they've been trying to do. She surely wasn't immortal, or at least, wasn't aware of her immortality, but she clearly didn't die, so that must mean immortality.
 
Mar 14, 2009 5:20 PM
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Almost perfect episode. To answer you noteDhero, I think you focus too much on scenario. You know, there are times when some series don't need one and just rely purely on their atmosphere and emotional impact (on top of fantastic direction and animation for Casshern Sins), and they're better without it. Also, we always say that scenarios are overrated and do not count for a good movie/series, and Casshern is the perfect example of that. So yes, there are inconsistencies, yes I don't know what happened to the rainbow stone, yes some characters suddenly changed without a reason, but well, ot's not really the point of the anime is it? Being myself a scenario addict and having written some, I know may not be the more qualified to talk about that, but well... ;)

In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same.
 
Mar 14, 2009 5:33 PM

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I agree with you, but when you present a lot of the things that Casshern: Sins does in the manner that they do, you are placing an importance on them. Had Casshern not tried to tie everything under Luna (showing some type of snippet/mentioning her every episode) I wouldn't harp on it so much. If they wanted to rely only on atmosphere they could have gone the route of Kino's Journey and Mushishi by relying solely on episodic content. But this thin attempt to tie everything together only muddles everything up.

And also, visually, I got bored halfway through with the same desert and flowers over and over again. If it wants to be about atmosphere and emotional impact (which it failed at for me) it needs to have more variety than "Life sucks and you die." That's why I wanted to like this episode, but they just had issues focusing on what they wanted to present. They tried to be a Jack of All Trades, and mastered none.
 
Mar 14, 2009 5:35 PM

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1) Well, it is still not clear about "reek of death" so far, from what we had learned there is 2 possible ways that could happened after being healed by Luna. You join together with the people in THAT town, that was talking about in ep21 or you get thrown into graveyard. That might be depend on the result you got.

3) In Dune's case is pretty much the same with Dio, they are both content with what they got and they chose a path to walk at their own will.

4) As for the theme, it is more like "Life is not about being perfect" having a life means being alive, and being immortal is like being perfect but at the same time once you are immortal you lose your reason to live. That is what Casshern learned from his journey. He has no fear of becoming ugly and dead, so he describe himself as not a living thing either. All he asks for is just a normal "life" to live. To sum everything up, it is just a reason to live.

5) I am with you, noteDhero. They need to explain more about Braiking Boss.


"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie."
 
Mar 14, 2009 5:43 PM

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Here's the thing though, why can't Casshern have a reason to live? Why can't he resolve his life to making up for his sins? It's so arrogant of him to think of himself as above it all (which by the way really bothers me about Casshern since about midway through, he doesn't really know how arrogant he is).
 
Mar 14, 2009 6:33 PM

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It is like why did casshern seek for an answer about himself in the beginning while he know he is immortal. Is there even a reason to do so if you are immortal? From the beginning he never understand anything beside being just there and immortal, and beat the hell out of everyone who come to him. Later, he started to learn about the meaning of living but he never able to understand that feeling since he is immortal while the others are mortal. But in ep21 he seems to understand the different between those people in that town and himself even though they are both immortal. Until this moment I would say that casshern should have a reason and resolve to live his life. As you can see, he understand how wrong Luna is and why didn't Dio and Dune accepted the healing and how important a life is after let himself got beaten to dirt for once. He is more like a normal human now even though he is still immortal.


"A Legend is but a tale of a beautiful lie."
 
Mar 14, 2009 6:37 PM

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That's the same way I felt about Casshern this episode. He managed to come to all these conclusion which are correct, but then sitting on them, and resigning himself to his immortality. Then again, he's been a bit of a puppet, so without someone to directly challenge him, he won't really grow.
 
Mar 15, 2009 8:53 AM

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Another great episode!
I don't want this series to end yet D:
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The signature seriously lacked "It's a Sony" qualities.
 
Mar 15, 2009 10:01 AM

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It's strange that Luna hates ruin (which is, as she said, the effect of her death) and asks Casshern to be a king. It seems that eternal life for her is the most important. Then, why would she accept Braiking Boss? I thought that all that curing wasn't exactly right, and remember Leda? Luna killed her, cause she smelt like death. Can she really restore BB's body? That's getting more and more illogical.
 
Mar 15, 2009 2:04 PM

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That was interesting.
I find it very sad that there is no hope for Casshern though. ;s I hope he will find a reason to live in the last episode.
Luna is more twisted than I thought. Did you notice she was smiling when she picked up that giant sword?
I am interested to see how this all wraps up.
I will be awaiting the next episode.

-Potatomac911.
 
Mar 15, 2009 8:03 PM

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noteDhero said:
Here's the thing though, why can't Casshern have a reason to live? Why can't he resolve his life to making up for his sins? It's so arrogant of him to think of himself as above it all (which by the way really bothers me about Casshern since about midway through, he doesn't really know how arrogant he is).


He actually has a reason to live and that's to find what it is out :P. I honestly don't see Casshern as arrogant at all. It's not like he's flaunting around his immortality and saying he's super strong and king of the world. It's quite the opposite really and he makes that clear in this episode when he rejects Luna's offer to make him a king. His wording and actions are simply that of a person with power that has no idea why he has power. Everyone has been saying he will never understand them because he's strong and immortal and he's simply agreeing while still trying to find out the meaning of his existence.

I'm pretty sure Ringo's roll will be made clear in the end. I too thought she was Leda's kid (even mentioned in one of the episode threads). I'm still not 100% sure on that since Ringo was found in another robot's chest and the one in Leda was presumably born but died after it was born. I guess they could have lied to her though.

 
Mar 16, 2009 10:27 AM

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I find him arrogant in a way that he doesn't even recognize. He's immortal and knows it and after all of everyone's whining at him, when Oji snapped a little while back, he goes and kills a bunch of robots to be human? What is that? Also, there's the resigning himself to immortality and not "living" that he did in this episode. I feel like if he had thought of a reason to live for himself, he would have squarely said that to Luna. Something along the lines of "I will try my best to burn half as bright as Dio and Leda." We didn't get that.

But there's still this week for that to happen.
 
Mar 16, 2009 12:57 PM

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Nice discussion. :]

Personally I dont see Casshern as arrogant either. He is an immortal being that forgot how to feel "alive". He ran out and got beaten up by a bunch of robots in order to feel something again. He exists in a world that he doesnt understand anymore. Love, hate, sympathy, anger, fear.... its all gone.


I hope for an ending where Casshern gains mortality and starts romancing Lyuze. She deserves it! ^^
 
Mar 16, 2009 2:50 PM

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But it's not all gone. He has surrounded himself with people who feel all of those emotions. And it's not that he lives in a world that he doesn't understand anymore, it's a world he either:

a) never understood to begin with
b) forgot completely about after "killing" Luna (which has yet to be explained)

It'd be farfetched to say that Lyuze doesn't love him, that Dio didn't hate him, that Ringo doesn't deeply feel badly for him, that Oji hasn't been angry or that Casshern hasn't been afraid of even himself.

It's all just a little too simple, and not taking into account everything that Casshern has experienced for the past 23 episodes.
 
Mar 16, 2009 3:23 PM

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Oh, that was quite misunderstandable. I meant for immortal beings like Casshern all the emotions are gone. Therefore he does not understand the people and the world around him. Obviously he is surrounded by mortal people/robots who still feel emotions.

Casshern himself just gets a weak afterglow of that which were emotions before his encounter with Luna. From my point of view immortality in that world is like a disease. It dampens emotions and the will to accomplish somthing in life.
 
Mar 16, 2009 3:47 PM

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But that's juxtaposed with the actual disease, Ruin, that either has the same affect or the exact opposite.

Narratively speaking, if Ruin can cause robots to be either way, why can't Casshern be the tails to Luna's head? I don't think they've done a good job expalaining that. Because away from Luna, we have seen Casshern in deep anguish and fear, so why not passion?
 
Mar 16, 2009 4:02 PM

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The most beautiful episode! Almost I forgot what was not end!
 
Mar 16, 2009 5:37 PM

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noteDhero said:
I find him arrogant in a way that he doesn't even recognize. He's immortal and knows it and after all of everyone's whining at him, when Oji snapped a little while back, he goes and kills a bunch of robots to be human? What is that? Also, there's the resigning himself to immortality and not "living" that he did in this episode. I feel like if he had thought of a reason to live for himself, he would have squarely said that to Luna. Something along the lines of "I will try my best to burn half as bright as Dio and Leda." We didn't get that.

But there's still this week for that to happen.


Not sure what episode your talking about but the last one where Oji snapped Casshern didn't fight anyone. He jumped into a fight and let them rip him to shreds as an attempt to try and feel what Oji and the others felt.

I honestly cant see him being arrogant at all. He hasn't shown consistent signs of being arrogant at all.
 
Mar 17, 2009 12:28 AM

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I haven't liked the main story of this series at all. The side-stories in the first half of the show were great. Dio/Leda/Luna/Braiking Boss/Ryuze/Ringo/Casshern/Oji don't compare to most of the minor characters who only got one episode.

Also, I'm sad that we never got to see any of those awesome characters again - Not even a flashback. Where is Sophia? Why doesn't Casshern ever think about Akoes, or the bell girl, or that one flower girl who broke after Luna "died", or the painter guy?
 
Mar 17, 2009 8:47 AM

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Yeah, naikou, it is suffering from a case of Kaiba syndrome.

Hmm, DeathfireD, I've been trying to think of how to best describe the arrogance vibe I get from Casshern. It's not an arrogance that he's aware of. It's like a naievity that just automatically resolves him to think in very arrogant ways. The whole thing with Oji is my main deal, running off to "become human" is ridiculous, a lot of the dialogue with Dio in his last fight reeked of arrogance to me. Maybe it's just his lack of understanding/want to understanding those around him that kind of causes him to deign himself to interacting with everyone.

I guess, in other words, nothing seems genuiine at all from him.
 
Mar 25, 2009 12:00 PM

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This episode really seamed like the ending. Anyway it was a nice episode.
 
Mar 27, 2009 5:29 AM

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In my opinion the show should have stopped here,that episode was nice
 
Dec 3, 2009 2:52 AM

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So from what i understood from Casshern's monologue to Luna, life is a bang like Deidara says.
You feel alive only when you know that you can die so that you will cherish the years you have and live them in full by finding a purpose and a goal to live. When you are internal even a goal in life has no meaning since you will never die. You don't need anything to keep you alive since you are immortal and that makes you as good as dead since you don't have passion and the appreciation of the life you have because you will never lose it. Those with limited life are like a flame that burns and disappears. It might disappear but when is there it is beautiful.
That's why he gave Dio as example, Dio had a purpose and he lived his live with passion. Dio's passion was to win against Casshern, that was his goal and by living strongly for that he lived a full life with passion.
Casshern can't have the passion that Dio had in his eyes because winning or losing nothing ends he will be there forever he can't put his life at risk or feel what is like and that's why he said that he can't be really alive.

Luna basically agreed with him when she said that he seemed empty now while when he was mortal he seemed beautiful.

What happened was that the world was full with immortals and basically the world was dead. Luna was a light of hope because she was full with death and could make people mortal so they can live. But when Casshern made a hole in her, all the death inside her came out in the world with the resold of the ruin being created.
Braking boss is the real villain because he doesn't want mortality. He wants an empire of immortal robots and that's why he wanted Luna dead. But now that Luna has changed because of Casshern and instead of giving death she gives immortality, Braking boss wants her so that he can stop the ruin and achieve his goal.

Now whether some of you agree that you can still live very nicely as an immortal or not is besides the point. The creators opinion is that you can not feel the excitement of being alive if you can't die. Personally i disagree but each has there own opinion and that's what this series believes about life and death.

As about Dune face. Well that was simply symbolical. Even when his face returned to normal his body was still damaged like it was before finding Luna. His changed face just showed that he found hope again by seeing Luna. His ugly face was the face of desperation about Luna's death that formed a mask around him and nothing more. It wasn't meant to be taken literally.

I hope in the last episode they will make clear all the matters about Ringo and that thing the kids gave her.

Well that's what i understood until now and am surprised about noteDhero not being able to understand some of this when he analyzes staff so much.
 
Apr 23, 2010 2:07 AM

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so casshern finally finishes off dio, and now braiking boss shows up to ruin it all
the only way to stop a gamer from playing is either: beat them, or wait until they get bored (though 2% percent suffer seizures
 
Jan 10, 2011 11:33 AM

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What the hell just happened?
Braiking Boss wanted Luna killed and now he's coming to receive salvation...and Luna wants him to be her king!! WTF?!?!?!?!?
 
Oct 2, 2012 4:55 PM
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Oh, the confusion in this episode. Leda's body twisting and warping, possible connection between Leda and Ringo, and Braiking Boss's appearance in front of Luna.

I wonder how they will wrap it up next episode; this episode kind of seemed like it could have been a good ending.
 
Oct 28, 2012 11:42 PM

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So I'm confuzzed...Casshern did kill Luna, and yet she did not die, so the ruin was triggered?
 
May 3, 2013 10:51 PM
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A lot of things wont be explained but I'm okay with that, because it opens up room for my imagination to fill in the blanks. However, I wish that Casshern could see he has the potential to be alive just like everyone else, just in a different way.
Modified by WithoutIdentity, May 3, 2013 10:57 PM
 
May 21, 2013 4:15 PM

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Bullshit there is no way that loli can pick up that blade and then proceed to stab Leda with it.

Yes Braiking Boss please put an end to all our suffering.
In my case, please end this series already.
 
Feb 21, 2014 6:37 PM

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Impressive episode! I really wonder what the last episode will offer us!
 
Mar 6, 2014 5:05 AM
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noteDhero said:
So, I really am leaning towards liking this episode, except for the fact that a lot of the inconsistencies in this world take a lot of precedence.

Luna - This is the same one from the beginning from the show, yet she is completely different. Did she grant eternal life in the beginning? Casshern "killiing" her caused everyone else to ruin, but now, even though she can grant eternal life, they can still reek of death? Doesn't make sense.

Ringo- Seemingly ends up not being important at all. Most likely Leda's child, but it doesn't really even matter. Also, she runs happily to Oji when the last time we saw her, she was running away from him.

Leda- How did she change like this? This also calls to attention Dune's sudden metamorphosis and reversion earlier in the show. What is that all about?

Themes- So the them really is "Life sucks and then you die." Yet we spend so much time on the themes of hope and what ruin brought to some people. I'm inclined to like some of what went on, but again, it just isn't focused enough. They did do a good job rounding stuff in with Dio and Leda though.

Braiking Boss - I don't understand why if he has been searching for Luna did he order her death in the first place. I hope that the next episode clearly defines his character, because he is looking rather useless right now.

This is probably the best episode since the one with Jin, but I don't think that says much.


Good points all of them. There seems to be a lot of inconsistency in the writing of this series. I wonder if maybe they wouldn't be best have been served by making this a one cour to keep the story more compact.
Modified by Farabeuf, Mar 6, 2014 5:23 AM
"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

 
Sep 23, 2014 9:08 AM

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HAHAHA all these "wtf is going on" comments LOL

Well obviously, what no one knows FOR SURE until now is just what the fuck the deal with Luna is. Life, death, immortal, mortal, good, evil, dick, pussy. I recall that the "rainbow stone" from the children was actually a bunch of cells of Luna (it was mentioned), and Ouji stayed behind to study said rainbow stone. This was in ep17. In ep21, he comes running out of nofuckinwhere towards Ringo, asking if they met Luna already. He says that Luna grants death and not salvation. He probably discovered something about the cells in the rainbow stone which obviously led him to say that. And THEN these FUCKIN healthy looking robots come passing by with smiles, Ouji said "wtf that's her power"? and that's what caused Ringo to dislike Ouji. This next part is one discrepancy everyone (or at least the analysers) spotted. In this ep, she comes running to Ouji, happy. Well if ever you're familiar, children tend to be very forgiving and most of all, forgetful. If you've had a fight with your parents, you'll eventually start opening up to them after a while, especially when they talk to you as if nothing happened, and they're back to their normal, happy selves. Children will think of it as chance, somewhat like an advantage to keep on their good side, and before you know it, everything's back to normal.

This series has dragged on for far too long. It is absolutely true. Kaiba syndrome, whatnot. The episodic nature is what got me very interested. I had high hopes right when Akoes (Ginko himself in another place, in another time) made his appearance. I miss my original shipping of Sophita and Casshern. I miss the bell girl (sort of, I guess), the painter, and probably even the singer (though the voice makes me cringe, wondering why the hell they couldn't have gotten a better person to sing. Every time one of the songs she sang plays, it just makes me feel awkward for a while. sfukinasty). Even that episode with the "broken-mind" robot girl and the ruined soldier robot. That was fucking BAWWWWWWWWWW and AWWWWWWWWWWW

But this episode has its fair share of BAWWWWWWWWWWWW


Episode highlight.
Modified by zetsu_shoren, Sep 25, 2014 12:54 AM
 
Jan 6, 2016 11:37 PM

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Fantastic episode, it's trying so much.
 
Apr 21, 2016 7:33 AM

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What @Monad said is what I had in mind as well. And, to an extent, what @zetsu_shoren pointed out, too.
 
May 20, 2016 2:38 AM
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And thus begins the final act. I've said all I could say about this series thus far, so here's to a grand finale.
 
Jun 1, 11:28 PM

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This series takes the bad from Kaiba and Texhnolyze.
I like how the Anime community acts like a bunch of Commie hippies, "We the Anime community!"

It's just a bunch of different circlejerks who all hate each other and their own kind.
 
Jun 23, 1:33 AM

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This was a fantastic episode. I agree with many others that this could have been and, depending on what's going to happen in ep24, maybe should have been the last episode. We'll see.
 
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