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Poll: Little Busters!: Refrain Episode 8 Discussion


Nov 23, 2013 7:53 AM

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I haven't officially watched it yet but reading the comments here. I'm a bit worried...
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:06 AM
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Is this even supposed to make sense? D: I don't even get all the drama anymore D: Everyone is so worked up about Little Busters and Riki trying to revive the team for some unknown reason... and why does Riki HAVE to be like Kyousuke? I don't like that! Riki should be Riki, I don't get why he has to be compared with him :s (and I'll never believe Riki is strong physically to actually hurt Masato...)

I'm kind of disappointed with this season. I don't get half of what's going on and what I get isn't rly that good~
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:10 AM

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Maffy said:
Is this even supposed to make sense? D: I don't even get all the drama anymore D: Everyone is so worked up about Little Busters and Riki trying to revive the team for some unknown reason... and why does Riki HAVE to be like Kyousuke? I don't like that! Riki should be Riki, I don't get why he has to be compared with him :s (and I'll never believe Riki is strong physically to actually hurt Masato...)

I'm kind of disappointed with this season. I don't get half of what's going on and what I get isn't rly that good~


Riki needs to be strong like Kyousuke. Strong enough to be able to reassemble the Little Busters. Why must he do that? Because they're friends and friends help each other.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:14 AM

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Meh. Mediocre episode....but at least we got to see the scene from hell XD was I the only one who laughed when Masato slipped And rolled with the statue on? It actually ruined the mood for me
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:14 AM

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No idea why people are calling this episode crap. Pretty good episode, very well adapted.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:20 AM

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I hope we see Kud by the end cuz I miss her a whole lot. No Wafuu~ ;(
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:25 AM

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Masato's last speech about having fun sounded as if his VA was still using his child voice :O Actually went to check the VN because I wasn't sure if that's how Masato was supposed to sound xD; The VA probably thought Masato was a kid when he said the line?

Seeing anime viewers speculate honestly wants to make me drop some hints, but I'll refrain from doing that (no pun intended). If anyone wants some I'd be willing to give some in a PM though, and try to be as non-spoilery as possible.
"Now's the time for you to run towards the day you awaken from this dream."

~Boys be Smile
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:28 AM
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I don't even know if this was satisfactory adapted or not but it didn't really feel as deep as in the VN to be sure... well whatever, twas alright I guess *shrug*

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Nov 23, 2013 8:33 AM
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Maffy said:
(and I'll never believe Riki is strong physically to actually hurt Masato...)

If it was a fair fight, sure. But Masato was already tired from lifting the statue all over the place (he then knocked out a few people during the day).. and he tumbled really bad there. I guess anyone that is tired can be knocked out with a few punches.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:34 AM
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Rin looked so cool here O(≧▽≦)O
http://imgur.com/2Djt7rm
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:34 AM

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Seems everything I wanted to say has already been said.. Fairly disappointed this week, Masato's storyline was hard to follow and seemed kind of pointless, music wasnt as good as usual.

Me, being someone who has never played the VN, I dont really know what to expect, but i've heard a lot of good things about Refrain. I can only hope it gets better from here on out like the first few episodes.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:38 AM

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Is that it?

I was kind of disappointed in this episode. As much as I want to be emotional, I didn't feel a thing. It was really rushed. I think they spent too much time with the whole chase and should have just used that time to lengthen Masato's own perspective. It didn't feel dramatic at least one bit. I feel kind of sad since I was expecting much from this episode and my expectation was not met.


Oh and why did Masato go crazy in the first place?
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:39 AM
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I registered just to say this - it's pretty well done given the fact that they only had one episode to work with.

The anime-only viewers will have a tough time catching up, though. Honestly, with only 13 episodes, Refrain will end up more like a supplementary add-on to the VN than anything.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:51 AM

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calmerx said:
I registered just to say this - it's pretty well done given the fact that they only had one episode to work with.

The anime-only viewers will have a tough time catching up, though. Honestly, with only 13 episodes, Refrain will end up more like a supplementary add-on to the VN than anything.


It like Naoi's arc in Angel Beats! for me. First hes an enemy and then later we see his flashbacks as a kid and in the end the protagonist saved him and made him he's comrade. And just like that Naoi's arc, Masato's was too fast paced for me to feel anything for him.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:51 AM
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I don't get why everyone is dissapointed in this episode. Yeah they shouldn't of used song for friends, maybe the emotional impact that was supposed to be felt wasn't really there, but I felt they did a good job with it. If I could change one thing it'd be to lengthen masato's perspective a little, and on the side have them not use song for friends. all the impact of that song is lost now, unfortunately, as they only used it twice in the VN.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:53 AM
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-Riptide- said:
It like Naoi's arc in Angel Beats! for me. First hes an enemy and then later we see his flashbacks as a kid and in the end the protagonist saved him and made him he's comrade. And just like that Naoi's arc, Masato's was too fast paced for me to feel anything for him.


That's why I'm waiting for the Angel Beats VN next year ;)

Edit: but we digress. I mean, given the constraints, I got to admit it's better than what I had expected (after dropping the first season).
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:55 AM

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Just finished watching the episode.
It was actually pretty good,considering they only had one episode to do Masato Route!
Oh,and Chibi Masato dancing~~
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:57 AM
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Finally watched it. I was expected a real crap because of all the comments I read before, but in fact, it was really good for me. As usual, they removed a some contents, but the essential is there. Kinda disapointed with the red-eyed zombie though. I mean, okay, he's really tired, but no one walk that way... not a living one at least. And the red eyes wasn't necessary, but it's quite irrelevant. Also, don't know why they changed the voice of the first fake Masatos. Kyousukid's face seems different than before, but maybe it's just me.

Concerning the OST, I didn't like the way they switched A World Where Nothing Happened with Two Sugars. Really awkward. Then, the grear debate : they replaced Little Melody by Song for Friends. I was worried before watching, but in fact, that worked very well too, especially in the flashbacks which make me tears up for some reason. Little Melody would have been better, but it's still pretty good that way in my opinion.

The fight with Riki was glorious. Too bad they didn't adapt the CG where Masato try to grip for Rin before being defeated. The CG of him sitting was also better in the VN and one of my favorites.

To sum up, one of the best episode so far (with episode 6) for me. Far better than last week's. It was far from perfect and not as good as the VN but still a pretty good episode.
 
Nov 23, 2013 8:59 AM

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calmerx said:
-Riptide- said:
It like Naoi's arc in Angel Beats! for me. First hes an enemy and then later we see his flashbacks as a kid and in the end the protagonist saved him and made him he's comrade. And just like that Naoi's arc, Masato's was too fast paced for me to feel anything for him.


That's why I'm waiting for the Angel Beats VN next year ;)

Edit: but we digress. I mean, given the constraints, I got to admit it's better than what I had expected (after dropping the first season).


Well the same doesn't go for me. I expected better and I was betrayed. All those VN players have said the Refrain arc is what made Little Busters! "god-tier" and this is part of the Refrain arc so I at least thought it would be emotional or dramatic but in the end it isn't.
 
Nov 23, 2013 9:06 AM

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Oh, I love to see times when Kyousuke was smiling.
 
Nov 23, 2013 9:14 AM

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Yes, i will admit that this episode wasn't perfect and not even remotely close to as good as this was in the visual novel, however this is not even close to as bad as y'all are making it out to be, i thought this was another excellent episode, and i still have faith that JC Staff can do this
Another 5/5 episode! :)
 
Nov 23, 2013 9:18 AM

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I haven't played the VN, and I've only been watching the anime. But I really enjoyed this episode. I can probably understand why some people who have played the VN are upset, but like I say, I haven't, so I guess my perspective differs quite a bit.

I though the flashback at the end was really well done, I actually found it really emotional, especially when song for friends started playing. Apart from episode 3, this is one of my favourite episodes from this season. I can see how it was rushed though, I don't like how they're condensing all these arcs. I wish they had more episodes to work with.

Riki was also really badass at the end, I never expected that he could fight like that, even if Masato was considerably worn out.
Modified by Novangel, Nov 23, 2013 9:22 AM
 
Nov 23, 2013 9:38 AM
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Well, I was disappointed by this episode
I didn't play the VN, but this episode was too rushed
I don't have any problem with Song For Friends, but the pacing was really bad

Even with that, still I enjoyed the episode, I gave 5/5 for all the previous episodes, but for this one I will vote for 4/5
 
Nov 23, 2013 9:45 AM

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Visual novel fans are damn commie terrorist.
 
Nov 23, 2013 9:51 AM

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julyan04 said:
Rawr_Taiga said:
Man and here I was worried that this was actually bad judging by peoples reactions.



The first half was kinda meh. They did a good job with Masato's prospective (though short)+the fight (RIKI) and the flash back feels with Kyousuke+Masato was enjoyable.

I just rewatched the whole thing and I realized that I was just overreacting. I set the bar way too high. Sorry.. my bad. But really... that Little Melody should be at the end...

By the way, when Masato lifted the statue, I was taken aback for a second.

I really wanted Little Melody too, together with the soundtrack played before that in the VN. The music was already awesome, I dunno why they bothered replacing everything at the end with Song for Friends. D: That totally ruined the feels I initially had for the first bro Episode: Masato. Anime-only viewers seem fine with the music choice though, but they probably would've gotten more feels if Little Melody was played instead.

But I still don't get why the first page here was full of hate. Apart from putting Song for Friends as the ending theme, I loved the way they adapted the episode. Saying this episode is the worst in the season feels like a huge exaggeration over a few flaws. The storyline was in tact, not much missing that I can remember from the VN, other than Masato walking around the school while the "Masato Eyes" were in effect. And the battle was awesome too.
Modified by koagzero, Nov 23, 2013 9:55 AM
julyan04 said:
Vladz0r said:
Kurugaya literally absorbed all the Little Busters budget into her breasts.
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:05 AM

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i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol
この世界には。。。秘密がある
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:11 AM

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sanata50lbsb said:
i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol

Except no one actually pointed it out in this episode. Shame since it took me days to change my avatar to this.
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:20 AM

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Again let me see this but Visual novel fans are cancer to Mal
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:24 AM

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sanata50lbsb said:
i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol


So that was it was about. I was wondering back then as to why Masato has been the favorite avatar specially by vn players.

Anyway, why did Masato see other people as Masatos in the first place? I don't get it. Will it be answered in the later episode or is it a plot hole?
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:25 AM

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-Riptide- said:
sanata50lbsb said:
i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol


So that was it was about. I was wondering back then as to why Masato has been the favorite avatar specially by vn players.

Anyway, why did Masato see other people as Masatos in the first place? I don't get it. Will it be answered in the later episode or is it a plot hole?

In case other dont want to know
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:28 AM

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egnaro315 said:
-Riptide- said:
sanata50lbsb said:
i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol


So that was it was about. I was wondering back then as to why Masato has been the favorite avatar specially by vn players.

Anyway, why did Masato see other people as Masatos in the first place? I don't get it. Will it be answered in the later episode or is it a plot hole?

In case other dont want to know


Oh okay thanks for answering my question.
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:32 AM

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sanata50lbsb said:
i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol


I enjoyed it, too O.o' Why are people going crazy about music of all things? I wasn't like the music they picked wasn't fitting.

The animation was great, and I felt like they packed everything thing in well. The only thing they could have done was focus on the Masato seeing everyone as another Masato, and even then, I don't think they did it too badly.
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:32 AM

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LunarEmerald said:
Maffy said:
Is this even supposed to make sense? D: I don't even get all the drama anymore D: Everyone is so worked up about Little Busters and Riki trying to revive the team for some unknown reason... and why does Riki HAVE to be like Kyousuke? I don't like that! Riki should be Riki, I don't get why he has to be compared with him :s (and I'll never believe Riki is strong physically to actually hurt Masato...)

I'm kind of disappointed with this season. I don't get half of what's going on and what I get isn't rly that good~


Riki needs to be strong like Kyousuke. Strong enough to be able to reassemble the Little Busters. Why must he do that? Because they're friends and friends help each other.



Yep, that is. And there is actually a reason why Little Busters team want Riki to be stronger and as strong as Kyousuke. Its a dramatic and touching one. But, if i say it here, it will be ruining your enjoyment later. That's why just watch till the end, and maybe you will find the answer. And this is Slice of Life. From what i know, SOL Animes don't always have a certain purpose on the story anyway, at least till near the end of the story.

Btw, why people always compare the anime and the VN. As in the story perspective too, ofc VN will almost always be better, as it has a much better time and great details to tell the story. Meanwhile, anime not. (Anime restricted to how many episode it will be, while VN not restricted to that). Thats why Anime will sum up the story. And sometimes the story feel rushed. This episode too, were like that. But, aside from how fast paced the story was, it was a good episode.
 
Nov 23, 2013 10:37 AM

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So after I watched the episode, I just saw that in the first page of this discussion page, people say that this episode was a bit weak then the other previous ones. I didn't play the VN but I would say this was a great episode IMO.

Though it was kind of a more comical and emotional way for Masato to prove he is the strongest. Now Riki will prove to be the strongest then Kyousuke and reform the Little Busters back.

 
Nov 23, 2013 10:41 AM

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Given the fact that JC Staff only had 1 episode to adapt Episode:Masato, I thought they did a pretty good job. Like every other VN players, I would've preferred if they played Little Melody at the end though.

The confrontation between Young Kyousuke and Young Masato was my favorite part of the VN. Glad to see it animated. Kyousuke was so boss, even as a kid. XD
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:10 AM

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Little Melody would have definitely been the best choice, but Song for Friends wasn't a bad choice. Personally, I still cried my eyes out for that scene in the end, it was fantastic. Didn't really like the eyes or zombie walk either, but I'd only consider that a minor gripe. Sometimes I really have to question the mindset people are in when they watch this anime (namely the VN readers). I've always been the type to "enjoy first" and "analyze afterwards".

Solkiskey said:
No idea why people are calling this episode crap. Pretty good episode, very well adapted.

QFT.
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:15 AM

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Like other AOV's I feel like the emotional impact did not match the expectations we had for Masato's route. Not sure if I've heard Little Melody, but I did like Song for Friends at the end, and I really liked A World Where Nothing Happened, especially when they played the latter half of it. I think some more detail on what drove Masato into a corner this time would have brought to full circle the paralleling with the past, and the emotional impact a lot of us missed. I still enjoyed it and thought it was good, but not nearly as impactful as episode 3, when the credits started I just thought 'is that all we get for him?'

egnaro315 said:
sanata50lbsb said:
i guess im the only visual novel player here who actually fucking enjoyed this episode. ALOT. sure, we didnt get 'little melody', but i still enjoyed it and had tears in my eyes towards the end... good job on this episode JC Staff. and now the anime only people know what the masato avatars are about lol

Except no one actually pointed it out in this episode. Shame since it took me days to change my avatar to this.

All you damn Masato's and your sneaky foreshadowing. As soon as they all appeared in the cafeteria I was like "ahh those clever bastards"
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:17 AM

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kenshin_sama said:
Little Melody would have definitely been the best choice, but Song for Friends wasn't a bad choice. Personally, I still cried my eyes out for that scene in the end, it was fantastic. Didn't really like the eyes or zombie walk either, but I'd only consider that a minor gripe. Sometimes I really have to question the mindset people are in when they watch this anime (namely the VN readers). I've always been the type to "enjoy first" and "analyze afterwards".

Solkiskey said:
No idea why people are calling this episode crap. Pretty good episode, very well adapted.

QFT.

*high fives kenshin_sama*
この世界には。。。秘密がある
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:25 AM
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As a VN reader, this was done perfectly fine, especially considering it only had one episode. I'm not sure what you guys wanted. Masato punching more people? The whole infinite Masato works is really awkward thing to begin with and they did the most important scene well (his flashback) regardless. Enjoyable episode for sure.
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:25 AM
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First things first... yes, it probably should have been two episodes instead. That being said, I still think the episode was pretty great. I liked the use of Song for Friends too. Honestly, the music problems some VN players have baffles me to no end. And yes! they finally used a "World where nothing happens." (The piece that places during the Unlimited Masato Moment). Very good piece.

Also for Anime-Only viewers. No, the multiple Masato thing wasn't explained in the VN yet. JC Staff didn't leave it out.
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:28 AM

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I haven't read the VN, so I can't tell how good this is as an adaptation. But from an anime only viewer, this episode was quite emotional and I found the music placement to be fitting, too. Looking forward to the rest of Refrain.
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:36 AM
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the reason why so many people are disappointed is because this is one of the best scenes in the entire VN. While i think they gave it their best go, there was still a lot left out that made it so damned good in the VN, also the changes that were made to account for the time constraints make things a bit more muddled. personally out of the season thus far id still rate this episode as one of the high points, however, only because it contains some of the best material, IMO, from the VN. that being said, if i was to compare this to every other piece of LB! thus far as far as adaptation goes, id say it failed pretty damned hard to be a good adaptation.

I did like their music selection and i felt that for once they almost got all the songs in the correct places. still there was no kyouske looking like a saint scene or explosive land mines or any of the comedy from the VN, nor were the emotional parts as strong as they should have been.

For the record, each of the next 3 episodes should have been at least 2 episodes a piece. That being said, I cant say i blame them for cutting out all those scenes where and when they did. Still i wish some one would go just say, "hey hang on a sec, lets put this on hold and give you more time and more episodes."
Modified by Draakisback, Nov 23, 2013 11:43 AM
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:51 AM
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I don't understand what's bad about this episode O.o it adapted the visual novel pretty well.. Either I'm forgetting some stuff from the visual novel, or people reaaaally like to b***h about everything. lol
 
Nov 23, 2013 11:54 AM
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dark06star said:
I don't understand what's bad about this episode O.o it adapted the visual novel pretty well.. Either I'm forgetting some stuff from the visual novel, or people reaaaally like to b***h about everything. lol


It's the second option.
 
Nov 23, 2013 12:05 PM

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sanata50lbsb said:
*high fives kenshin_sama*

Thanks, bro! :) I always take solace in positive statements when being flooded with negativity over something I really enjoyed.

Dashiawia said:
I haven't read the VN, so I can't tell how good this is as an adaptation. But from an anime only viewer, this episode was quite emotional and I found the music placement to be fitting, too. Looking forward to the rest of Refrain.

As an adaption, it definitely doesn't live up to its source. That much I'll admit. But I still couldn't help but love how well adapted this was.

Draakisback said:
the reason why so many people are disappointed is because this is one of the best scenes in the entire VN. While i think they gave it their best go, there was still a lot left out that made it so damned good in the VN, also the changes that were made to account for the time constraints make things a bit more muddled. personally out of the season thus far id still rate this episode as one of the high points, however, only because it contains some of the best material, IMO, from the VN. that being said, if i was to compare this to every other piece of LB! thus far as far as adaptation goes, id say it failed pretty damned hard to be a good adaptation.

I did like their music selection and i felt that for once they almost got all the songs in the correct places. still there was no kyouske looking like a saint scene or explosive land mines or any of the comedy from the VN, nor were the emotional parts as strong as they should have been.

For the record, each of the next 3 episodes should have been at least 2 episodes a piece. That being said, I cant say i blame them for cutting out all those scenes where and when they did. Still i wish some one would go just say, "hey hang on a sec, lets put this on hold and give you more time and more episodes."

That makes sense, but that would basically be an expectations issue. Having expectations that aren't met can easily kill anything for anyone. I've been a victim of this with FMA:B, so I know how it is. But I can only blame myself for letting my expectations get that high in the first place, and I've since learned from that experience.

More or less, that would likely be a WB thing. We were promised an adaption of all the character routes in LB (which includes EX), and this project would only receive enough budget for 2 cours. If that investment includes EX, then they can only give so much to Refrain. Yeah, extra episodes would definitely help, but it's just not feasible. :( Personally, I'd love it if they just took out EX entirely so they give more to Refrain. It'd be a good way to promote the VN as well (since it would give that extra incentive to experience the EX routes).
 
Nov 23, 2013 12:05 PM

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MCAL said:
dark06star said:
I don't understand what's bad about this episode O.o it adapted the visual novel pretty well.. Either I'm forgetting some stuff from the visual novel, or people reaaaally like to b***h about everything. lol


It's the second option.

^^
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Nov 23, 2013 12:11 PM

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Unless some serious stuff happens in the next episodes. I don't see how people would have thought that this would overcome Clannad:AS on MAL. As an anime only viewer it seems a little too random atm?
 
Nov 23, 2013 12:11 PM

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I'm a visual novel reader as well and I thought that this episode was SWEET.

I expected it to look pretty much like this, ever since I found out how many episodes this series is going to have. Honestly, I'd prefer others to stop complaining about every single detail and just enjoy the show, because it's not bad.
I wanted it to be the masterpiece as well, but you can't have everything.

Anyway, about the episode itself - zombie Masato looked kinda silly at times, BUT FINALLY THAT TRACK (Nanimo Okaranakatta Sekai) WAS USED AND MADE EVERYTHING BETTER.
Rin's jump kinda lacked an impact, but I was prepared for it ever since the PV came out.
Visual novel version if anyone wondered:
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/4369/46yq.png
We got to see her chibi version though, AND SHE WAS SO CUTEEEE <3
Loved the ending too, though I agree that Song For Friends was kinda out of place. Wasn't awful though, just a bit unfitting.

FINALLY, the moment for Kengo to shine~! Can't believe that it's going to be the 9th episode already... I don't want this series to end, it makes every week worth waiting for the next episode, sigh.
 
Nov 23, 2013 12:33 PM

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Muchan said:
Unless some serious stuff happens in the next episodes. I don't see how people would have thought that this would overcome Clannad:AS on MAL. As an anime only viewer it seems a little too random atm?


Well, is understable that people think this is random or not make sense atm, one of the major issue is that in the anime we have to wait one entire week for just 24 fucking minutes and that can discourage many people. Not like in the VN when you can read this part of the story in pretty much one day and get all the answers, and IMO that can change the experience A LOT.

Kitsu-nee said:
FINALLY THAT TRACK (Nanimo Okaranakatta Sekai) WAS USED AND MADE EVERYTHING BETTER.


I know, right <3 I was waiting a lot to hear that ost in the animu, I fucking love than ost =w=

About the episode, let aside zombie Masato, was ok, I love the part when Kyousuke befriend Masato, he's awesome even as a child. Song for friends was unexpected but wasn't bad either.
Modified by Bunnerz, Nov 23, 2013 4:56 PM
 
Nov 23, 2013 12:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 31379
Well, not having read the VN this was enjoyable, but still felt kinda rushed and overall I'm not sure what's going on rigt now, but I just hope it'll become clearer in the future.

Aesthetic value can be recognized or experienced, but it cannot be conveyed to those who are incapable of grasping its sensations and perceptions. To quarrel on its behalf is always a blunder.
 
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