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Poll: Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica Movie 3: Hangyaku no Monogatari Episode 1 Discussion


Dec 7, 2013 2:07 PM

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guyklc said:
I just got back from downtown Los Angeles watching the morning screening. It was a wonderful movie indeed, surpassed my expectations. I enjoyed Homura's confusion as she realizes everything around her is wrong. However, I actually thought the climax of the movie was a bit confusing. If anything else, I can't say I like the way Homura turned out to in the end...


Downtown independent? Ha I saw it there last night too.
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Dec 7, 2013 3:14 PM

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MajinSaga said:
guyklc said:
I just got back from downtown Los Angeles watching the morning screening. It was a wonderful movie indeed, surpassed my expectations. I enjoyed Homura's confusion as she realizes everything around her is wrong. However, I actually thought the climax of the movie was a bit confusing. If anything else, I can't say I like the way Homura turned out to in the end...


Downtown independent? Ha I saw it there last night too.


/high fives

Yes, I saw it at Downtown Independent. I live about 40 minutes to the east of Los Angeles. It was worth it driving through the morning rain :)

Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol.
 
Dec 7, 2013 3:37 PM

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ShinakoX2 said:
Idk if there was anything about this in the thread already, but does anyone have any interpretations for the final scene after the credits?
Kyubey got fuckin wrecked. But Homura said that it was necessary for her new order, so I dunno.

The cake song, though...caught me off by surprise. They were spittin their rhymes so gooooood.
 
Dec 7, 2013 4:15 PM
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So in the anime we see Madoka make a new world, and in this movie Homura's despair and numerous time skips to the past cause her to finally break. Her witch form was very nicely done, and in the end to me Homura did what she did to keep Madoka from leaving her. From my perspective she just didn't want to be left alone, and she didn't really care what Sayaka or Kyoko told her, but she did tell Madoka that if the day ever comes where she changes sides or realizes the truth of Homura's actions the Madoka will be her rival.

Homura basically finished what Madoka couldn't in the anime and that's rewrite the law of cycle so that Madoka can live a normal peaceful life. As for Kyubey it surprised me that Homura was used as a Guinea Pig for his twisted experiments. Now Homura turning witch after recovering her memories wasn't much of a surprise.
Modified by SweetKiichigo, Dec 7, 2013 4:20 PM
 
Dec 7, 2013 5:41 PM

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guyklc said:
MajinSaga said:
guyklc said:
I just got back from downtown Los Angeles watching the morning screening. It was a wonderful movie indeed, surpassed my expectations. I enjoyed Homura's confusion as she realizes everything around her is wrong. However, I actually thought the climax of the movie was a bit confusing. If anything else, I can't say I like the way Homura turned out to in the end...


Downtown independent? Ha I saw it there last night too.


/high fives

Yes, I saw it at Downtown Independent. I live about 40 minutes to the east of Los Angeles. It was worth it driving through the morning rain :)


Nice! It was about 40 minute drive for me as well for the 10pm showing last night so it was definitely worth it.

The final scene after the credits really surprised me though. Actually the entire climax twist was surprising as well, but I suppose Homura would rather have Madoka exist. The Sayaka and Kyouko moments were very enjoyed. All my Sayaka feels came back... I'm glad I got the Sayaka and Kyouko autographed mini art board.
 
Dec 7, 2013 5:48 PM

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I got none of the cool gifts/items. Nothing. :/
 
Dec 7, 2013 5:53 PM

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30 Min drive for me. Well worth it as well.

Also, why do I feel like I am the only person that feels like the ending was completely in character of Homura?
Modified by Dragonblood21, Dec 7, 2013 6:06 PM
 
Dec 7, 2013 6:04 PM

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destructo22 said:
I got none of the cool gifts/items. Nothing. :/


Oh damn that sucks. Did you go on premier day? I think they were only giving the autograph boards on premier day.
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Dec 7, 2013 6:33 PM

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Naw, I went today. I know that people who watched it on Premier day got good shit, but I could've sworn that people who watched the movie regardless would get something. Maybe it was just for Los Angeles? I watched it in Buffalo. I dunno, I'm over it now though lol.

The cake song alone was with the $16 ticket.
 
Dec 7, 2013 7:19 PM

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Dragonblood21 said:
Also, why do I feel like I am the only person that feels like the ending was completely in character of Homura?

I dunno, because you're not. While I've made my intense hatred of this movie's ending quite thoroughly known, it didn't take me long to accept that Homura's actions, while complete bullshit from a storytelling perspective, (you can't just say "My Soul Gem was corrupted by love which gave me the power to rewrite reality!!!" and expect me to accept it when 1: this story has been running quite thoroughly on cynicism from day one, and 2: there was absolutely nothing in the show or the movie prior to this twist that indicated that this was possible) are perfectly in-character for her. Oh sure, I also find they make her seriously unlikable and cast an insanely creepy light over absolutely everything she ever did before this as well, but it's in no way inconsistent with how she was portrayed before this.
 
Dec 7, 2013 8:11 PM

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guyklc said:
MajinSaga said:
guyklc said:
I just got back from downtown Los Angeles watching the morning screening. It was a wonderful movie indeed, surpassed my expectations. I enjoyed Homura's confusion as she realizes everything around her is wrong. However, I actually thought the climax of the movie was a bit confusing. If anything else, I can't say I like the way Homura turned out to in the end...


Downtown independent? Ha I saw it there last night too.


/high fives

Yes, I saw it at Downtown Independent. I live about 40 minutes to the east of Los Angeles. It was worth it driving through the morning rain :)


We were in the same showing =). Managed to grab both Homura and Ultimate Madoka art board ^^. But that ending.... i almost screamed out "Damn you Urobuchi" outloud -_-
Modified by ultimalionbeta, Dec 7, 2013 8:15 PM


 
Dec 7, 2013 8:15 PM
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MajinSaga said:
Just got back from the screening. It was a pretty good movie and overall good but confusing conclusion. The first part o the film was fucking terrible though. I felt like booing the shit out of it and even walking out of it. That cake scene is retarded and beyond corny.


That was intentional, it was supposed to be the perfect world according to homura's subconscious. Basically she was projecting like crazy.
 
Dec 7, 2013 8:31 PM

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Vegard_Aune said:
Dragonblood21 said:
Also, why do I feel like I am the only person that feels like the ending was completely in character of Homura?

I dunno, because you're not. While I've made my intense hatred of this movie's ending quite thoroughly known, it didn't take me long to accept that Homura's actions, while complete bullshit from a storytelling perspective, (you can't just say "My Soul Gem was corrupted by love which gave me the power to rewrite reality!!!" and expect me to accept it when 1: this story has been running quite thoroughly on cynicism from day one, and 2: there was absolutely nothing in the show or the movie prior to this twist that indicated that this was possible) are perfectly in-character for her. Oh sure, I also find they make her seriously unlikable and cast an insanely creepy light over absolutely everything she ever did before this as well, but it's in no way inconsistent with how she was portrayed before this.


I only skimmed the thread a bit, but it looked like others here were also saying that Homura's actions were not like her. As I was walking out of the theatre, that's all I practically heard. I didn't get that at all. Homura never showed care to anyone other than Madoka throughout the whole anime + movie. I mean hell, in just the movie she contemplated taking Mami's life when she had no reason to. Or did anyone else not notice her pointing the gun at Mami's soul gem when she thought she froze her? It was weird.

I kind of feel like Homura's actions were still very cynical. She's calling it "love" but I feel she has a very tainted view of what love is. It isn't the love most people are accustomed to, and relate to. She wanted to keep Madoka by her side at all costs, regardless of who or what she effected. She would kill the world if it meant Madoka was still by her side. If that's not cynical, or something along the lines of 'evil love', I'm not sure what is. She might be at the point where even if she hurt Madoka, she would overlook it for her sake. I don't know, we didn't really get a chance to see much of "Homura version 3", so to speak.

I never really found Homura like-able, and her actions to me were always sort of creepy. She always had a scent of evil on her too. She didn't even show slight emotion when Mami died in the anime, and could care less about Sayaka when she was becoming a witch. She never cared about her comrades apart from Madoka. Seeing her turn evil because of Madoka, well, that seemed pretty much right on the money to me.

Edit: I am referencing the Homura that changed due to going through time so much. NOT the Homura that wore the glasses and braids. To me they are two different characters, and the fact that the writer specifically changes her look even, I would say is trying to reflect that upon us. Thus why I referred to the ending Homura as version 3.
Modified by Dragonblood21, Dec 7, 2013 8:38 PM
 
Dec 7, 2013 8:35 PM

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skudoops said:
MajinSaga said:
Just got back from the screening. It was a pretty good movie and overall good but confusing conclusion. The first part o the film was fucking terrible though. I felt like booing the shit out of it and even walking out of it. That cake scene is retarded and beyond corny.


That was intentional, it was supposed to be the perfect world according to homura's subconscious. Basically she was projecting like crazy.


Yeah I realize that now. But it still came off as really cheesy. I'll just erase it from my mind.
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Dec 7, 2013 8:50 PM

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Seen it twice now and going for a 3rd screening with friends tomorrow. I still can't describe in words how i feel about that ending. It's driving me insane. I hate it. I love it. 10/10

P.S. Akuma Homura for #1 yandere ever.
 
Dec 7, 2013 8:56 PM

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Thought it was great. Didn't expect them to do anything quite like this. I'm still a tad unclear on a couple of the specifics but I'm sure a second viewing will clear that up.

EDIT: There is only one line of dialogue that I don't get...



Other than that one line everything else makes sense and I can totally see how they would continue this story.
Modified by neontaster, Dec 7, 2013 10:44 PM
 
Dec 7, 2013 11:02 PM

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AqworldThunder said:
Omegadark said:
Just watched in Michigan. I feel blessed that it actually came to my state lol. Beyond my wildest dreams in terms of awesomeness and hope theres some more.


I watched in Florida and I feel the same way, "it actually came to my state?!" I was really lucky to even get a ticket to begin with because it sold out pretty fast. I loved the movie, the premise and execution. I loved the scene at the end where it showed Kyuubey huehuehue.

Cosplayers!
https://31.media.tumblr.com/1ed946a37b5340b46b949466e1eb2202/tumblr_mxfdtoBwyk1skweg2o2_500.jpg


I thought about getting up to take a picture of them, but I guess this one works just as well. ^_~

That Kyouko looked pretty legit in person.
 
Dec 8, 2013 12:08 AM

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ultimalionbeta said:
But that ending.... i almost screamed out "Damn you Urobuchi" outloud -_-

This ending was not in Urobuchi's original plans though. His first draft had the movie just ending with Madokami taking Homura away and them presumably living happily ever after in Magical Girl Heaven, but then Shinbo was like "You know... I'd like something that leaves the door open for a sequel. Think we could do that?" and then... well I don't know exactly how it went down, and for all I know maybe Devil Homura was Urobuchi's idea (though I do get the impression from what I read, that it was something someone else suggested to him), but in any case, she was a later addition to the story.

neontaster said:
Thought it was great. Didn't expect them to do anything quite like this. I'm still a tad unclear on a couple of the specifics but I'm sure a second viewing will clear that up.

EDIT: There is only one line of dialogue that I don't get...



Other than that one line everything else makes sense and I can totally see how they would continue this story.

Really? The official subtitles translated it as "demons"? I seem to recall they were called "Wraiths" in the dub and official subs for the show/first two movies. In any case, she means the creatures that basically replaced the witches in Madoka's new world. Now I have seen the translation "demons" used for them before, but I never really cared much for that... And given that this movie gave us "the Devil" who is Homura herself, it makes even less sense to use it now.

Oh and also I'm pretty sure that statement was meant to be just mocking her. Like "Oh sure, I don't mind being your enemy and having epic battles for the fate of the universe. But how about we leave that till after you've beaten the Wraiths (which can never be completely destroyed as they are the physical manifestations of despair and curses and so the only way to get rid of them would be to somehow annihilate all despair from the universe), 'kay?"
 
Dec 8, 2013 2:52 AM

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Dragonblood21 said:
I never really found Homura like-able, and her actions to me were always sort of creepy. She always had a scent of evil on her too. She didn't even show slight emotion when Mami died in the anime, and could care less about Sayaka when she was becoming a witch. She never cared about her comrades apart from Madoka. Seeing her turn evil because of Madoka, well, that seemed pretty much right on the money to me.

Edit: I am referencing the Homura that changed due to going through time so much. NOT the Homura that wore the glasses and braids. To me they are two different characters, and the fact that the writer specifically changes her look even, I would say is trying to reflect that upon us. Thus why I referred to the ending Homura as version 3.


Demonstrably false statement. In anime she tried to save Mami, but Mami didn't listen to her and restrained her. And Homura did have subtle reaction when Mami died, this same happened when Kyoko died. It wasn't ocean of tears but this reaction was there! She also saved Sayaka twice - first during fight with Kyoko, second time: when she retrieved Sayaka's soul gem. She also wanted to give Sayaka grief seed, when Miki needed it, but Sayaka refused. She also saved Kyoko from Oktavia von Seckendorff, and helped her to escape with Sayaka's body. Why she did all those things if she didn't give a damn about anyone else but Madoka? She was always trying to resolve problems with diplomacy, and she was using violence as a last resort etc.

My point is: Homura from TV series had some morals, she didn't thought that ends justify the means. If she did, why she never kidnapped Madoka, taken her away far from Mitakihara City and held her captive until Walpurgisnacht threat was over? It would be very easy thing to do. So why she never did that? Why she never killed Kyoko, when she knowed that Kyoko will be dangerous for Madoka's best friend?

You see, appeal of characters like Homura and/or Kyoko comes from, the fact that they are seemingly evil and uncaring, but in reality they are good people who just have very traumatic past. Plot twist, in original anime, was that seemingly emotionless, jaded and creepy, Homura was in reality, a good person, who just wanted to save someone from dying. And you knows what? In all timeliness Madoka can see this, she is the only one who is willing to give Homura benefit of the doubt - "I wonder... Is she really a bad person"? -, because Madoka always see what's best in people. And that was the only reason why Homura fell in love with Madoka in the first place: Kaname was the only one who seen Homura's potential, she gave this insecure, timid, sickly girl, a hope that someday she will become more than just a four eyes weirdo: "Since you were blessed with such a great name, you should become cool to match it!", "You were amazing, Homura!" etc. And this hope come true. During her time crusade, Homura become confident, smart, athletic and she had superpowers - in the end she was most powerful Puella Magi alive and she had mission in life, she fought to commemorate Madoka. So, Madoka give Homura hope, and now Homura is practically destroying hope itself... It could be seen as ironic, tragic and even poetic but I think that it is out of character for Homura. It's sad that Madoka was wrong about Akemi and Sayaka was right all along: "And there I was, thinking she was this awesome girl, but it turns out she"s a total psycho!" Damn shame! :(

This movie ruined Homura's character, but if there would be season 2, maybe authors will give her opportunity for redemption, if this even possible. I prefer to see, redemption story rather than all out fight between metaphorical god and metaphorical devil.
Modified by Tachikoma1701, Dec 8, 2013 3:02 AM
 
Dec 8, 2013 3:03 AM

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If you go to the animesuki forums, they have a pretty long thread on the movie where almost everyone has come to the conclusion that Homura's character change is natural and foreshadowed in several scenes earlier in the movie.

As for the love gem coming out of nowhere thing, after watching the series again and then rewatching the movie, here's my take on how it makes sense:

In the original series, Madoka's potential comes mostly from the karmic threads that spiral towards her due to Homura's wish. In the scene where Kyubi's explaining his theory, there is an image of Madoka, laid over gears, and and also being strung up by threads. I'm interpreting these as karmic threads from the various universes Homura traversed, and that Madoka is the 'center'. However, later in the same episode, when Kyubei is explaining Homura's action to Madoka, at the part where she'll fall into despair after realizing she can't change fate, Homura is shown in the exact same pose and background, with the same karmic threads tying her up.

In the movie, there is a pink spool of thread that shows up a lot in Homura's Labyrinth, and is often being played around with by her familiars. I think most people assumed it was some kind of red string of fate referring to Homura's love to Madoka. I'm thinking it could also be a representation of the karmic spiral that Homura accumulated. In the scene where Homura creates her super love gem, the scene literally shows the pink thread spool turning into it.

The original series also refers to how special Homura is a lot in the last episode. Madoka even remarks that Homura is able come to the higher plane she resided in for the last meeting, and also says that because she's able to come here, she may not forget Madoka in the new world.

Also, rewriting the universe wasn't done by Madoka in the original series either. Madoka made a wish, and due to the paradox caused by the wish, the powers that grant the wish changed Madoka into a law that existed outside the universes, and then the universes 'balanced' themselves to fit with this new law.

In the movie, it doesn't seem like Homura does anything as extravagant as creating a new law. She rips a small part of Madoka from the greater law, and then envelops the universe (although in my 2nd viewing, it seemed like every universe) first in her normal witch Labyrinth, which is then quickly filled by that new 'love' that filled her soul gem (there's actually 2 growths, first the purple that we associate with Witches, then the crazy psychedelic black pattern that's supposed to be 'love').
 
Dec 8, 2013 3:05 AM

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Just saw the movie a few hours ago and all i can say is that


10/10
A perfect story to why sometimes villains are misunderstood in their desire to achieve their goals.
Modified by Janethan23, Dec 8, 2013 3:15 AM
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Annie Leonhart
 
Dec 8, 2013 7:12 AM

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Vegard_Aune said:
ultimalionbeta said:
But that ending.... i almost screamed out "Damn you Urobuchi" outloud -_-

This ending was not in Urobuchi's original plans though. His first draft had the movie just ending with Madokami taking Homura away and them presumably living happily ever after in Magical Girl Heaven, but then Shinbo was like "You know... I'd like something that leaves the door open for a sequel. Think we could do that?" and then... well I don't know exactly how it went down, and for all I know maybe Devil Homura was Urobuchi's idea (though I do get the impression from what I read, that it was something someone else suggested to him), but in any case, she was a later addition to the story.

neontaster said:
Thought it was great. Didn't expect them to do anything quite like this. I'm still a tad unclear on a couple of the specifics but I'm sure a second viewing will clear that up.

EDIT: There is only one line of dialogue that I don't get...



Other than that one line everything else makes sense and I can totally see how they would continue this story.

Really? The official subtitles translated it as "demons"? I seem to recall they were called "Wraiths" in the dub and official subs for the show/first two movies. In any case, she means the creatures that basically replaced the witches in Madoka's new world. Now I have seen the translation "demons" used for them before, but I never really cared much for that... And given that this movie gave us "the Devil" who is Homura herself, it makes even less sense to use it now.

Oh and also I'm pretty sure that statement was meant to be just mocking her. Like "Oh sure, I don't mind being your enemy and having epic battles for the fate of the universe. But how about we leave that till after you've beaten the Wraiths (which can never be completely destroyed as they are the physical manifestations of despair and curses and so the only way to get rid of them would be to somehow annihilate all despair from the universe), 'kay?"


Yeah I sorta figured she was toying with her but I wasn't sure if I was missing something. And yes, the sub said "demons" even though it also used the word "wraiths" elsewhere in the same movie. That definitely contributed to my confusion.
 
Dec 8, 2013 7:18 AM

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Tachikoma1701 said:

Demonstrably false statement. In anime she tried to save Mami, but Mami didn't listen to her and restrained her. And Homura did have subtle reaction when Mami died, this same happened when Kyoko died. It wasn't ocean of tears but this reaction was there! She also saved Sayaka twice - first during fight with Kyoko, second time: when she retrieved Sayaka's soul gem. She also wanted to give Sayaka grief seed, when Miki needed it, but Sayaka refused. She also saved Kyoko from Oktavia von Seckendorff, and helped her to escape with Sayaka's body. Why she did all those things if she didn't give a damn about anyone else but Madoka? She was always trying to resolve problems with diplomacy, and she was using violence as a last resort etc.

My point is: Homura from TV series had some morals, she didn't thought that ends justify the means. If she did, why she never kidnapped Madoka, taken her away far from Mitakihara City and held her captive until Walpurgisnacht threat was over? It would be very easy thing to do. So why she never did that? Why she never killed Kyoko, when she knowed that Kyoko will be dangerous for Madoka's best friend?

You see, appeal of characters like Homura and/or Kyoko comes from, the fact that they are seemingly evil and uncaring, but in reality they are good people who just have very traumatic past. Plot twist, in original anime, was that seemingly emotionless, jaded and creepy, Homura was in reality, a good person, who just wanted to save someone from dying. And you knows what? In all timeliness Madoka can see this, she is the only one who is willing to give Homura benefit of the doubt - "I wonder... Is she really a bad person"? -, because Madoka always see what's best in people. And that was the only reason why Homura fell in love with Madoka in the first place: Kaname was the only one who seen Homura's potential, she gave this insecure, timid, sickly girl, a hope that someday she will become more than just a four eyes weirdo: "Since you were blessed with such a great name, you should become cool to match it!", "You were amazing, Homura!" etc. And this hope come true. During her time crusade, Homura become confident, smart, athletic and she had superpowers - in the end she was most powerful Puella Magi alive and she had mission in life, she fought to commemorate Madoka. So, Madoka give Homura hope, and now Homura is practically destroying hope itself... It could be seen as ironic, tragic and even poetic but I think that it is out of character for Homura. It's sad that Madoka was wrong about Akemi and Sayaka was right all along: "And there I was, thinking she was this awesome girl, but it turns out she"s a total psycho!" Damn shame! :(

This movie ruined Homura's character, but if there would be season 2, maybe authors will give her opportunity for redemption, if this even possible. I prefer to see, redemption story rather than all out fight between metaphorical god and metaphorical devil.


She didn't try to save Mami, as much as she tried to stop the fight from happening and leaving the possibility of a contract being formed between Madoka and Kyuube to make Madoka a magical girl. One of her two reactions was an "oh no", and that's because that means Madoka is left in the witch's presence with no magical girl there to defeat it. The second reaction was a slight shimmer in her eyes after saying, "This is what it's like to become a magical girl". Which to me is her restraining emotion from the countless times she's been through the pain of being a magical girl, seeing Madoka die over and over. Before this fight Homura makes it very clear to Mami that her concern is stopping Mami fromming helping Sayaka and Madoka become magical girls, and then specifically states she especially doesn't want Madoka involved.

Again Homura's motive behind saving Sayaka in the fight with Kyouko is to prevent a contract with Madoka and Kyuube. Kyuube was trying to get Madoka to help her friend, by interfering with the fight, Homura was able to rid the possibility of her becoming a magical girl to help Sayaka. She even explicitly states to Kyouko she will deal with Sayaka on her own.

The 2nd time she doesn't save Sayaka, and even states to her that she doesn't care if she dies, right to her face. She only cares that the situation is hurting Madoka, and that's it. Sayaka herself even sees that Homura's motives aren't pure and caring to Sayaka, before Homura states so to confirm that.

She shows a small amount of care towards Kyouko's death in the anime. It's unclear whether this is because she lost her partner to possibly bring down Walpurgisnacht, or because she actually cared about Kyouko, or possibly a combination of the two. Re-watching the episode it looks to me like she did have a small care for Kyouko herself, with a rather large emphasis on small.


Homura wasn't fighting to commemorate Madoka either, she was fighting to save her, and keep her by her side. Her wish was to protect Madoka, because Homura couldn't deal with Madoka's death, she couldn't emotionally handle it.


The Homura before she traveled through time consistently was a good character, it's the Homura that traveled through time again and again that became cold and to a sense corrupted by watching her best friend die repeatedly, without a seemingly possible way to stop it. Now honestly I think if any of the other four went through this, they too could emerge as a different character entirely as well. They could possibly be very similar to Homura, possibly even completely evil, who's really to say? I don't view Homura as an "evil" character per say, but I certainly do view her as corrupted, and the corruption started after watching Madoka die over and over.
Modified by Dragonblood21, Dec 8, 2013 7:22 AM
 
Dec 8, 2013 8:09 AM
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Happy, peaceful world, but there are mahou shoujo who still fights happily. Kyuubey doesn't talk and is Madoka's pet. And there's a doll (previously a witch) with Mami that turns out to be the new girl.

It sounds like Homura's journey to find out about herself, but it became a journey to become a different identity by stealing a part of Madoka's power because of her desire is too strong. Kyuubey's sole purpose is still the same. Homura doesn't want to forget her role even though she doesn't have the memory...
Modified by tsubasalover, Dec 8, 2013 9:30 AM
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Dec 8, 2013 10:08 AM

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Dragonblood21 said:
"She didn't try to save Mami, as much as she tried to stop the fight from happening and leaving the possibility of a contract being formed between Madoka and Kyuube to make Madoka a magical girl. One of her two reactions was an "oh no", and that's because that means Madoka is left in the witch's presence with no magical girl there to defeat it. The second reaction was a slight shimmer in her eyes after saying, "This is what it's like to become a magical girl". Which to me is her restraining emotion from the countless times she's been through the pain of being a magical girl, seeing Madoka die over and over. Before this fight Homura makes it very clear to Mami that her concern is stopping Mami fromming helping Sayaka and Madoka become magical girls, and then specifically states she especially doesn't want Madoka involved.
"

Well, that's only one of possible interpretations, and I don't agree with it. In fact Homura could wanted to get rid off Mami, all together because Tomoe indeed wanted to convince Madoka to become MG. But Homura didn't do that. Why? In fact she was trying to talk Mami out of it and convince her to leave Madoka alone, she was trying to find peaceful resolution - their conversation in the park. Right there, she could easily shoot Mami from behind and then, destroy her soul gem. But she didn't do that, instead she choose peaceful conversation. Again, why she choose peaceful approach if she don't give a damn about Mami, at all? And about Homura's reaction to Mami's death - this "oh, no" could be interpreted as both concern for Madoka, but also as a sign of grief after the loss of Tomoe. But this reaction is definitely there.

"
Again Homura's motive behind saving Sayaka in the fight with Kyouko is to prevent a contract with Madoka and Kyuube. Kyuube was trying to get Madoka to help her friend, by interfering with the fight, Homura was able to rid the possibility of her becoming a magical girl to help Sayaka. She even explicitly states to Kyouko she will deal with Sayaka on her own."

About first fight, it's possible interpretation. But then she saved Sayaka's soul gem when Madoka, throw it off a bridge. And then she offered grief seed to Sayaka when she needed it. And yes, she told Kyoko that she will deal with Sayaka herself, exactly because she watned to protect Miki from Sakura - Kyoko was determined to kill Sayaka, but Homura could easily knock down Sayaka with one hit. That's why she didn't want Kyoko to fight Sayaka, and that's why she strike a deal with Kyoko - to protect Sayaka from harm.

"The 2nd time she doesn't save Sayaka, and even states to her that she doesn't care if she dies, right to her face. She only cares that the situation is hurting Madoka, and that's it. Sayaka herself even sees that Homura's motives aren't pure and caring to Sayaka, before Homura states so to confirm that."

If this would be completely true, then why she didn't just eliminated Sayaka, instead she offered her grief seed. It seems that she was threatening Sayaka and forcing her to accept help. If she wanted to shoot Sayaka, she would do that even before - there was plenty of opportunity to so. I want also to point out that, in this scene, Homura never aimed at Miki's soul gem.

"She shows a small amount of care towards Kyouko's death in the anime. It's unclear whether this is because she lost her partner to possibly bring down Walpurgisnacht, or because she actually cared about Kyouko, or possibly a combination of the two. Re-watching the episode it looks to me like she did have a small care for Kyouko herself, with a rather large emphasis on small."

You see, you admitted it! Homura had some emotional reaction when Kyoko died! Sakura would be completely useless against Walpurgisnacht - in TV series Kyoko couldn't even fly and if hundreds of rocket launchers and C4 explosives, fired simultaneously, couldn't put a dent in WN, then Kyoko's spear would be even more laughable ineffective. So it can't be about Sakura's help. Also Akemi saved Kyoko from Oktavia von Seckendorff. Again, why?

"Homura wasn't fighting to commemorate Madoka either, she was fighting to save her, and keep her by her side. Her wish was to protect Madoka, because Homura couldn't deal with Madoka's death, she couldn't emotionally handle it."

In the end of the series? Sure, she did! I'm referring to this: " I want to protect this world, since she wanted to protect it", or something like that.
http://kurogane.animeblogger.net/image/winter2011/madoka_12_epilogue.jpg

This movie throw this message in the garbage. And in the end of TV series, Homura was happy with her new role.

And no, it was never about keeping Madoka by her side. In fact, in each timeline they grow more apart. And as I said if Homura was so obsessive and immoral that she didn't even respected Madoka's free will, then why she never abducted Madoka and transported her away from Mitakihara and keep her captive, until WN threat was over? And as I said - only reason why Homura was in love with Madoka, was because Madoka give Homura hope that Akemi will become more than just a mousy girl. And that hope come true. So Homura didn't need Madoka at all, anymore.


"The Homura before she traveled through time consistently was a good character, it's the Homura that traveled through time again and again that became cold and to a sense corrupted by watching her best friend die repeatedly, without a seemingly possible way to stop it. Now honestly I think if any of the other four went through this, they too could emerge as a different character entirely as well. They could possibly be very similar to Homura, possibly even completely evil, who's really to say? I don't view Homura as an "evil" character per say, but I certainly do view her as corrupted, and the corruption started after watching Madoka die over and over."

When, as I said appeal of characters like Homura and/or Kyoko comes from the fact that they seems evil but, they are just very traumatized. You know, appearances can be deceiving. Now this appeal is completely gone. :(
Modified by Tachikoma1701, Dec 8, 2013 10:15 AM
 
Dec 8, 2013 11:32 AM

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Holy crap it's getting hard to quote

"Well, that's only one of possible interpretations, and I don't agree with it. In fact Homura could wanted to get rid off Mami, all together because Tomoe indeed wanted to convince Madoka to become MG. But Homura didn't do that. Why? In fact she was trying to talk Mami out of it and convince her to leave Madoka alone, she was trying to find peaceful resolution - their conversation in the park. Right there, she could easily shoot Mami from behind and then, destroy her soul gem. But she didn't do that, instead she choose peaceful conversation. Again, why she choose peaceful approach if she don't give a damn about Mami, at all? And about Homura's reaction to Mami's death - this "oh, no" could be interpreted as both concern for Madoka, but also as a sign of grief after the loss of Tomoe. But this reaction is definitely there."

For one, Homura doesn't seem to be able to beat Mami. Homura repeated those months many times, it's possible she has already tried to take Mami out and failed. This is pure speculation of course. Also even if she managed to kill Mami, it may cause more harm than good, as I'm sure Madoka or Sayuka would want revenge on Homura. The oh noe could have been grief for Mami, it's not impossible, by no means. I do however, feel that you would expect her to show more grief for her comrades death than she showed, but she didn't. It certainly seems like Homura is rather okay with living in a time line where Mami died.

"About first fight, it's possible interpretation. But then she saved Sayaka's soul gem when Madoka, throw it off a bridge. And then she offered grief seed to Sayaka when she needed it. And yes, she told Kyoko that she will deal with Sayaka herself, exactly because she watned to protect Miki from Sakura - Kyoko was determined to kill Sayaka, but Homura could easily knock down Sayaka with one hit. That's why she didn't want Kyoko to fight Sayaka, and that's why she strike a deal with Kyoko - to protect Sayaka from harm."

I don't feel as though she saved Sayaka's soul gem because she cared about Sayaka, but rather because it would hurt Madoka to see Sayuka die. Again I'm going to reference the part below where she said she didn't care about Sayaka, and threatened to kill her. It didn't seem like a threat out of care or consideration, there was no emotion or anything there, which would be typical if you threatened someone out of love, it would hurt you to threaten them. We won't know if it was more than a threat because Kyouko stepped in before Homura could try. Lastly when Sayaka did in fact die, she had absolutely no grief what so ever. She had so little grief that it actually pissed Kyouko off greatly.

"If this would be completely true, then why she didn't just eliminated Sayaka, instead she offered her grief seed. It seems that she was threatening Sayaka and forcing her to accept help. If she wanted to shoot Sayaka, she would do that even before - there was plenty of opportunity to so. I want also to point out that, in this scene, Homura never aimed at Miki's soul gem."

For the same reason she wouldn't want to eliminate Mami. It seems likely to me that it would cause more trouble than good.

"You see, you admitted it! Homura had some emotional reaction when Kyoko died! Sakura would be completely useless against Walpurgisnacht - in TV series Kyoko couldn't even fly and if hundreds of rocket launchers and C4 explosives, fired simultaneously, couldn't put a dent in WN, then Kyoko's spear would be even more laughable ineffective. So it can't be about Sakura's help. Also Akemi saved Kyoko from Oktavia von Seckendorff. Again, why? "

I don't think you are using "admitted" in the right context. I realized she had more of a reaction with Kyouko than I thought when I decided to re-watch the episode. There was not much grief, and the topic of Walpurgisnacht was brought up immediately after Kyuube's and Homura's conversation about Kyouko's death. If Homura had an attachment to Kyouko more than her being a partner to kill Walpurgisnacht, she didn't have the opportunity to say so. I'll certainly give Homura that.

I also do want to add that Homura has referenced to Madoka as "her only friend". Why she doesn't view the others as friends, I don't know, but that is Homura's exact words.

"In the end of the series? Sure, she did! I'm referring to this: " I want to protect this world, since she wanted to protect it", or something like that.
http://kurogane.animeblogger.net/image/winter2011/madoka_12_epilogue.jpg

This movie throw this message in the garbage. And in the end of TV series, Homura was happy with her new role."

Oh okay. Yea I can agree to that. But I feel like Homura herself through that in the garbage, not the movie. I view Homura as though she went through stages, and each stage there were drastic changes in her personality. Her first stage is the glasses stage and braids stage, where I feel she had much more comradery and care for others. The second stage is when she went through time over and over, and this caused her to have an obsession for Madoka above all else. Third stage would be the grief seed with it's new, we'll say "form", and her being evil.

"And no, it was never about keeping Madoka by her side. In fact, in each timeline they grow more apart. And as I said if Homura was so obsessive and immoral that she didn't even respected Madoka's free will, then why she never abducted Madoka and transported her away from Mitakihara and keep her captive, until WN threat was over? And as I said - only reason why Homura was in love with Madoka, was because Madoka give Homura hope that Akemi will become more than just a mousy girl. And that hope come true. So Homura didn't need Madoka at all, anymore."

Walpurgisnacht wasn't a storm or something that passes over, if they didn't kill it, it would destroy the entire world. That wouldn't have been an option for Homura. Homura at the end of the movie didn't respect Madoka's free will, when she seized her stating "I finally got you". The word finally rings out to me, I don't know if it does to you. It's as though that's what she wanted all this time. To me all of her actions throughout the enitre series certainly shows that. If what you saying was the case, that Homura would have been okay with Madoka's death ,she would have never wen through countless time lines to prevent Madoka's death, nor would this whole movie ever have happened.
 
Dec 8, 2013 1:18 PM

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I watched this yesterday night and now that I'm not as tired, I can give my thoughts on it.

I liked the movie but the I have mixed feelings toward the ending. I'll touch on this later as I want to start from the beginning.

When the movie started, I was relatively confused because it seemed like it was a timeline where everything was cannon like how Type Moon's is (except in this case, it's timelines, not routes). I heard it was a sequel to the movie but I had my doubts after hearing Moemura's high pitched voice (and Sayaka's, although I don't think this one was intentional), watching teamwork by everyone, and noticing Sayaka, who was supposed to not exist in Earth due to the Law of the Cycle.
I don't remember the opening now but I remember liking it. The Cake Song was pretty hilarious (No, I'm not! I'm a cheese!) I found it amusing that the Mami-cheese meme was taken by the staff.
By the time Homura and Kyouko couldn't go to Kyouko's city, I figured that the world was something that someone created. Everyone was working together, Mami had Charlotte, Kyouko and Sayaka are good friends with each other, and Madoka and Homura are good friends as well. Obviously,the creator couldn't be Kyouko as if she was , that city should exist.
Kyuubey acting really cute ("kyu~") was pretty chilling considering what he'd done previously. Charlotte was adorable ("I want cheese!") though. The fight scenes (Mami vs. Homura, specifically) was very well done.
The reveal that Homura was the creator of the witch barrier and something did happen after the epilogue of the series/movie was a shock to me. And Kyuubey revealing that he is the main antagonist (at this point) made me facepalm. Homura really shouldn't have talked about witches and Madoka to him in the newly restructured world. Incubators are definitely deceptive and such.
The Attack on Homura and Attack on QB of the story was enjoyable. I teared up in the Kyouko x Sayaka scene but I would have cried a bunch if I wasn't in public.
Then the plot twist happened. It caught me unexpected as I thought that Homura would be glad to be with Madoka for eternity.
I have mixed feelings have the ending because it didn't feel like a proper closure for me. I guess I expected someone to stop Homura or awaken Godoka. But I liked how the corruption of Homura's soul gem and her insanity after not seeing Madoka for so long lead to her action towards Godoka. She wanted to be with Madoka forever and ever, not with Godoka, who would be busy conducting the Law of the Cycle. Basically the events after the re-restructuring of the world were chilling. Sayaka was very likable in this movie (her stubbornness and idealism combined really annoyed me). I felt very sorry for her when she realized her miserable feelings toward the Kyousuke and Hitomi hookup. And Madoka. I basically freaked out when Homura suppressed Godoka from waking back up.

From what I've read, there are rumors/speculation/talk of a 4th movie. I know it's not confirmed (or at least officially, I think?) but can someone explain the situation of it? The ending was not entirely satisfying and if a 4th movie that ties everything together is planned, I can be happy with this series.

Also, I got Godoka for the goodies thing the theaters gave out. I was pretty depressed by it after the movie... I would like to rewatch this to catch more hints and details when the BDs are out.
 
Dec 8, 2013 3:26 PM

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Dragonblood21 said:
For one, Homura doesn't seem to be able to beat Mami. Homura repeated those months many times, it's possible she has already tried to take Mami out and failed. This is pure speculation of course. Also even if she managed to kill Mami, it may cause more harm than good, as I'm sure Madoka or Sayuka would want revenge on Homura. The oh noe could have been grief for Mami, it's not impossible, by no means. I do however, feel that you would expect her to show more grief for her comrades death than she showed, but she didn't. It certainly seems like Homura is rather okay with living in a time line where Mami died.

I don't feel as though she saved Sayaka's soul gem because she cared about Sayaka, but rather because it would hurt Madoka to see Sayuka die. Again I'm going to reference the part below where she said she didn't care about Sayaka, and threatened to kill her. It didn't seem like a threat out of care or consideration, there was no emotion or anything there, which would be typical if you threatened someone out of love, it would hurt you to threaten them. We won't know if it was more than a threat because Kyouko stepped in before Homura could try. Lastly when Sayaka did in fact die, she had absolutely no grief what so ever. She had so little grief that it actually pissed Kyouko off greatly.

For the same reason she wouldn't want to eliminate Mami. It seems likely to me that it would cause more trouble than good.

I don't think you are using "admitted" in the right context. I realized she had more of a reaction with Kyouko than I thought when I decided to re-watch the episode. There was not much grief, and the topic of Walpurgisnacht was brought up immediately after Kyuube's and Homura's conversation about Kyouko's death. If Homura had an attachment to Kyouko more than her being a partner to kill Walpurgisnacht, she didn't have the opportunity to say so. I'll certainly give Homura that.

I also do want to add that Homura has referenced to Madoka as "her only friend". Why she doesn't view the others as friends, I don't know, but that is Homura's exact words.

Oh okay. Yea I can agree to that. But I feel like Homura herself through that in the garbage, not the movie. I view Homura as though she went through stages, and each stage there were drastic changes in her personality. Her first stage is the glasses stage and braids stage, where I feel she had much more comradery and care for others. The second stage is when she went through time over and over, and this caused her to have an obsession for Madoka above all else. Third stage would be the grief seed with it's new, we'll say "form", and her being evil.

Walpurgisnacht wasn't a storm or something that passes over, if they didn't kill it, it would destroy the entire world. That wouldn't have been an option for Homura. Homura at the end of the movie didn't respect Madoka's free will, when she seized her stating "I finally got you". The word finally rings out to me, I don't know if it does to you. It's as though that's what she wanted all this time. To me all of her actions throughout the enitre series certainly shows that. If what you saying was the case, that Homura would have been okay with Madoka's death ,she would have never wen through countless time lines to prevent Madoka's death, nor would this whole movie ever have happened.


Well, sure Homura could kill Mami by shooting her from behind - again, watch scene when they are talking in the park, and see what I mean. And well, Madoka and Sayaka wouldn't even know what happened. As for Homura's reaction to Mami death - as I said is not a big reaction, but it's definitely there.

You said that: it would hurt Madoka to see Sayaka die... And then you claimed that Homura wanted to kill Sayaka for this same reason - to protect Madoka from harm. It's a contradiction: one of this statements must be false, and one must be correct, they can't be both true! As for Homura's emotions - she shows them very really. Even when she talk to Madoka, most of the times, she is emotionless, so lack of emotions is not a definite proof. And once more: Homura never targeted her weapon at Sayaka's soul gem - and we know for a fact that this is the only way to kill MG. I agree that she didn't had any reaction when Sayaka died, but in this same time she helped Kyoko to escape with Sayaka's body, and afterwards she asked Kyubey:" If there was any chance for Kyoko to save Sayaka Miki?" Why would she asked this question if she didn't cared about anyone besides Madoka?

You said that eliminating Sayaka would cause more trouble than good. OK, then once again I ask you: then why she supposedly watned to kill Sayaka when Miki refused to accept a grief seed? Either she thinks that eliminating Sayaka will cause harm to Madoka, or she thinks that it's OK, to kill Sayaka with cold blood. One or the other! And look at Homura's words: "Why are you doing this to your self? Why won't you trust me, can't you see I just want to help you?" Sure, when Sayaka refused to accept help, then Akemi started to threaten Sayaka, but this was only because she realized that different, more peaceful approach won't work.

Not much grief after Kyoko died... Not much, but it was there! And considering that Homura is not emotionally expressive person, it was a lot. And she asked Kyubey: if there was a chance that Kyoko could save Sayaka? Once again, why ask if she don't care? And as I said, in confrontation with Walpurgisnacht, Kyoko would be usless, so it's not concern about losing fighting partner.

Yes, Homura sees Madoka as her only, true friend because as I said Madoka is the only one who ever, give Akemi benefit of the doubt: no one ever listen to her. Also Madoka was giving Homura this hope, I was talking about earlier.

You said that Homura through final message of TV series in the garbage. But you see Akemi is fictional character, so I naturally blame authors of the movie for that. They practically ruined their own TV series, by making it completely irrelevant. In a way it was a reboot. In fact all of the positive messages from TV series lost their relevance. This: "You have to focus on the one thing that means to you the most, and protect it until the very end", is also is worthless, since this one, and only thing t can drive you crazy and turn you into a monster... That's why I'm not a fan of this movie - it's really mean-spirited.

You said: Walpurgisnacht wasn't a storm or something that passes over, if they didn't kill it, it would destroy the entire world... Wait, what??? They never said that in TV series, you just made it up! Gretchen could destroy the world, but not Walpurgis. And I'm sorry, but quoting a line from a movie, to support your theory, that Homura's development IN THE MOVIE, was believable is no the way to go, because no one should be judge in his own cause. If you would give me similar quote from TV series, then it's completely different story. And you know, there is a colossal difference between, wanting to save somebody's life and wanting to keep this person by your side, for the rest of your life. Two, entirely different things! Also Homura was not OK, with Madoka's death, because she made a promise to Madoka that she will keep her save. That was her motivation in TV series.
Modified by Tachikoma1701, Dec 8, 2013 4:04 PM
 
Dec 8, 2013 8:37 PM
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You either die a hero or live long enough to rewrite the universe
End of Madokagelion?
Disappearance of Homura Akemi?
 
Dec 8, 2013 9:22 PM
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So, I watched it today (official sub) and there's only one part I really don't understand:



I think that's the largest crux the official subs have created. Noting the "rip" translations seem to be substantially different from what I've seen/heard this makes the intentions much more vague.
 
Dec 8, 2013 9:43 PM

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zinjashike said:
So, I watched it today (official sub) and there's only one part I really don't understand:



I think that's the largest crux the official subs have created. Noting the "rip" translations seem to be substantially different from what I've seen/heard this makes the intentions much more vague.


Could work either way. Will depend on how they choose to do it in the next movie or 2nd season.
 
Dec 8, 2013 10:13 PM

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zinjashike said:
So, I watched it today (official sub) and there's only one part I really don't understand:



I think that's the largest crux the official subs have created. Noting the "rip" translations seem to be substantially different from what I've seen/heard this makes the intentions much more vague.

Well seeing how she also mentions the Wraiths apparently still being around, surely Madoka's system must still be working in some fashion... How this can be when Madoka is no longer around to destroy Soul Gems that are at the breaking point is anyone's guess however, because it sure doesn't look like Homura's doing anything about it...
 
Dec 9, 2013 12:44 AM
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-Quasar said:
Apparently extreme lesbianism can corrupt a soul gem and turn a mahou shoujo into a supreme being far greater than a God. Okay.

Best. Ok, I no longer feel like crying.
 
Dec 9, 2013 3:45 AM
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i feel like they changed the ending just so they could milk more out of the franchise. disappointing. homura's character is cheapened now for it.
 
Dec 9, 2013 8:08 AM

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Never forget, that if you post a topic, you're not allowed to post in it yourself, by order of MAL administration.
 
Dec 9, 2013 10:50 AM

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rtil said:
i feel like they changed the ending just so they could milk more out of the franchise. disappointing. homura's character is cheapened now for it.


If you watch the series again, then watch the 3rd movie, her actions in movie 3 are a natural extension of her character. There are a lot of nuances in the dialogue in episode 12 that I missed in my first watch.

Homura 'turn' begins as early as the flower field scene in the third movie.
Modified by Esclair, Dec 9, 2013 10:58 AM
 
Dec 9, 2013 11:27 AM

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Esclair said:
rtil said:
i feel like they changed the ending just so they could milk more out of the franchise. disappointing. homura's character is cheapened now for it.


If you watch the series again, then watch the 3rd movie, her actions in movie 3 are a natural extension of her character. There are a lot of nuances in the dialogue in episode 12 that I missed in my first watch.

Homura 'turn' begins as early as the flower field scene in the third movie.


What dialogue in episode 12 you talking about? Can you give me a quote? So you are saying that "devil" ending was not a last minute rewrite?
 
Dec 9, 2013 11:59 AM

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Tachikoma1701 said:
Esclair said:
rtil said:
i feel like they changed the ending just so they could milk more out of the franchise. disappointing. homura's character is cheapened now for it.


If you watch the series again, then watch the 3rd movie, her actions in movie 3 are a natural extension of her character. There are a lot of nuances in the dialogue in episode 12 that I missed in my first watch.

Homura 'turn' begins as early as the flower field scene in the third movie.


What dialogue in episode 12 you talking about? Can you give me a quote? So you are saying that "devil" ending was not a last minute rewrite?


The devil ending was not in the original script that Gen wrote. However, after Shinbo suggested making Homura and Madoka enemies, Gen was inspired to make this ending.

So if you rewatch episode 12, you'll see that Homura was never really 'satisfied' with Madoka's decision. Even when they were together in the 'outside' plane Homura kept questioning whether Madoka is okay with the sacrifice she's making. Homura is completely devastated by what Madoka is giving up while Madoka is comforting her telling her it's not so bad. Homura finally decided to honor Madoka's choice (of course she didn't have much of an alternative).

So her purpose changed from protecting Madoka to protecting Madoka's ideals. That's why in the new world when she jumps off the building to fight the wraiths, she says even though this world is full of sorrow and despair and doesn't deserve to be saved, she'll still fight because Madoka wanted to protect it. She doesn't care about the world at all. However, the only way she could still protect Madoka is by protecting Madoka's wish, so that's her new purpose. She doesn't look happy at all as she says that line.

In the third movie, we get a clearer look at Homura's purpose as she thinks the existence of the witch itself is a blasphemy to Madoka's sacrifice to for the world, and she'll eliminate it without prejudice (the convo between Sayaka and Homura when Sayaka asks isn't it okay that everyone's living happily in this Labyrinth?).

In the flower field scene between Madoka and Homura, Homura realizes this is the real Madoka and from Madoka's answers realizes that it'd be the most painful thing for Madoka to not be with her friends and family. She then says that she should have never let Madoka make that wish and should have stopped her. At this point Homura is already regretting her choice and thinks that she failed to protect Madoka at the end of the series.

Then at the scene where Madoka reaches out to Homura's witch state (this is the scene before they shoot combined arrows to break Kyubey's barrier). Madoka comes and tells Homura to never abandon hope as she'll never abandon her and to not give up. Homura then apologizes for being a coward, and says that sh'ell do anything to meet her again, and she can hold any sin, and it doesn't matter how she is, as long as she can stand by Madoka's side. Then Madoka asks to go back together, and Homura answers with an affirmation. Madoka then asks Homura if she's afraid, and Homura says no, she won't hesitate anymore.

On first read, this scene seems to imply that Homura is apologizing for trying to kill herself, and that she's ready to join Madoka, but on 2nd read, it seems to mean she's apologizing for putting Madoka in danger (with Kyubei) but she'll become anything in order to be by Madoka's side, and that she won't hesitate again (to make the decision to 'correctly' protect Madoka).

So finding out Kyubei has plans for Madoka, as well as Madoka's true feelings on her sacrifice causes Homura to think she failed in protecting Madoka, and thus determined to truly 'protect' her.

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. I'd need to watch it a third time to really confirm everything.
Modified by Esclair, Dec 9, 2013 12:16 PM
 
Dec 9, 2013 12:18 PM

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I went and saw the movie in Cleveland yesterday. Pretty cool seeing it on the big screen. It looked and sounded gorgeous. I've finally collected all of my thoughts about it:

Modified by FierceAlchemist, Dec 9, 2013 12:23 PM
 
Dec 9, 2013 12:26 PM

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Esclair said:
Tachikoma1701 said:
Esclair said:
rtil said:
i feel like they changed the ending just so they could milk more out of the franchise. disappointing. homura's character is cheapened now for it.


If you watch the series again, then watch the 3rd movie, her actions in movie 3 are a natural extension of her character. There are a lot of nuances in the dialogue in episode 12 that I missed in my first watch.

Homura 'turn' begins as early as the flower field scene in the third movie.


What dialogue in episode 12 you talking about? Can you give me a quote? So you are saying that "devil" ending was not a last minute rewrite?


The devil ending was not in the original script that Gen wrote. However, after Shinbo suggested making Homura and Madoka enemies, Gen was inspired to make this ending.

So if you rewatch episode 12, you'll see that Homura was never really 'satisfied' with Madoka's decision. Even when they were together in the 'outside' plane Homura kept questioning whether Madoka is okay with the sacrifice she's making. Homura is completely devastated by what Madoka is giving up while Madoka is comforting her telling her it's not so bad. Homura finally decided to honor Madoka's choice (of course she didn't have much of an alternative).

So her purpose changed from protecting Madoka to protecting Madoka's ideals. That's why in the new world when she jumps off the building to fight the wraiths, she says even though this world is full of sorrow and despair and doesn't deserve to be saved, she'll still fight because Madoka wanted to protect it. She doesn't care about the world at all. However, the only way she could still protect Madoka is by protecting Madoka's wish, so that's her new purpose. She doesn't look happy at all as she says that line.

In the third movie, we get a clearer look at Homura's purpose as she thinks the existence of the witch itself is a blasphemy to Madoka's sacrifice to for the world, and she'll eliminate it without prejudice (the convo between Sayaka and Homura when Sayaka asks isn't it okay that everyone's living happily in this Labyrinth?).

In the flower field scene between Madoka and Homura, Homura realizes this is the real Madoka and from Madoka's answers realizes that it'd be the most painful thing for Madoka to not be with her friends and family. She then says that she should have never let Madoka make that wish and should have stopped her. At this point Homura is already regretting her choice and thinks that she failed to protect Madoka at the end of the series.

Then at the scene where Madoka reaches out to Homura's witch state (this is the scene before they shoot combined arrows to break Kyubey's barrier). Madoka comes and tells Homura to never abandon hope as she'll never abandon her and to not give up. Homura then apologizes for being a coward, and says that sh'ell do anything to meet her again, and she can hold any sin, and it doesn't matter how she is, as long as she can stand by Madoka's side. Then Madoka asks to go back together, and Homura answers with an affirmation. Madoka then asks Homura if she's afraid, and Homura says no, she won't hesitate anymore.

On first read, this scene seems to imply that Homura is apologizing for trying to kill herself, and that she's ready to join Madoka, but on 2nd read, it seems to mean she's apologizing for putting Madoka in danger (with Kyubei) but she'll become anything in order to be by Madoka's side, and that she won't hesitate again (to make the decision to 'correctly' protect Madoka).

So finding out Kyubei has plans for Madoka, as well as Madoka's true feelings on her sacrifice causes Homura to think she failed in protecting Madoka, and thus determined to truly 'protect' her.

Anyways, that's just my 2 cents. I'd need to watch it a third time to really confirm everything.


I agree with pretty much everything you said. I think the flower scene is the real turning point for Homura. Didn't realize how much could be read into that scene where Madoka pulls Homura out of the witch. I want to go and watch it again so I can catch all the foreshadowing.
 
Dec 9, 2013 1:23 PM

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Esclair said:
Tachikoma1701 said:
Esclair said:
rtil said:
The devil ending was not in the original script that Gen wrote. However, after Shinbo suggested making Homura and Madoka enemies, Gen was inspired to make this ending.

So if you rewatch episode 12, you'll see that Homura was never really 'satisfied' with Madoka's decision. Even when they were together in the 'outside' plane Homura kept questioning whether Madoka is okay with the sacrifice she's making. Homura is completely devastated by what Madoka is giving up while Madoka is comforting her telling her it's not so bad. Homura finally decided to honor Madoka's choice (of course she didn't have much of an alternative).

So her purpose changed from protecting Madoka to protecting Madoka's ideals. That's why in the new world when she jumps off the building to fight the wraiths, she says even though this world is full of sorrow and despair and doesn't deserve to be saved, she'll still fight because Madoka wanted to protect it. She doesn't care about the world at all. However, the only way she could still protect Madoka is by protecting Madoka's wish, so that's her new purpose. She doesn't look happy at all as she says that line. (...) real Madoka and from Madoka's answers realizes that it'd be the most painful thing for Madoka to not be with her friends and family.


Well, I didn't asked about 3 movie, I asked about quote from TV series that could confirm what you said about Homura's development in the movie. So where are those quotes, telling us that Homura was unhappy about her new role and about Madoka's becoming a goddess? Yes, she was crying at first, because she thought that Madoka's fate was worse than death, and she wasn't happy that she was separated from Madoka, but in the end she accepted her new role and was happy about it - she even cracked a smile when she was talking to Madoka's family and she smiled, in after the credits scene, when she heard Madoka's voice. And off course, in the end of the series, Akemi was fighting to commemorate Madoka's memory - that was final messege of the show: "Don't forget. Always, somewhere, someone is fighting for you. As long as you remember her, you are not alone." And that was the point that TV show was making: yes, world can be cruel and uncaring place, where tragedy and sorrow happen all the time, but as long as you have someone who is caring for you - even if this is only memory of someone- as long, life is worth living. Nice message. Shame that now it's flushed down the toilet with the rest of TV series... You know, since now love can apparently turn you into "the devil". Not happy about this and about TV series being practically rebooted - universe keeps getting rewritten is ridiculous. How can I be emotionally invested in story and characters, when they don't really matter since they will be rewritten in the end? All characters arc and decisions are now, essentially meaningless.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but in flower field scene, Madoka didn't remembered events that lead to her to making her wish? And best friends becoming enemies - it's quite cliche...
Modified by Tachikoma1701, Dec 10, 2013 2:32 AM
 
Dec 9, 2013 1:32 PM

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skudoops said:
xLastSighAMV said:
I only have one thing to say about this movie.
IT IS FINALLY FUCKING DONE
Now, please shaft, focus on something more important than milking money out of popular series, like... well i don't know... making Kizumonogatari maybe?


Isn't that essentially milking money out of a popular series as well? Madoka and Monogatari are SHAFT's two biggest franchises.


There's a big difference between milking money and animating a novel that they sould've done a long time ago.
 
Dec 9, 2013 2:42 PM

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Homura`s journey into madness reminds me so much of Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader). Everything starts off so innocent with the purest intentions but along the way things don`t go the way he/she envisioned. Unfortunate and tragic events has twisted and muddled their outlook on life and has left them continuing with their cause but taking it to extreme measures that effects everything and everyone around them; even the ones they love. Homura, like Anakin has deceived and betrayed the people who loved and trusted him. In spite of all the love and trust they gave him it really wasn’t enough. Most people like this are delusional and do more harm because they are in their mind doing the right thing.

Homura's intentions has really turned for the worse. Sure she gets to finally save and protect the person she adores yet at the cost of Madoka's free will and purpose of existing. Now Madoka and everyone else is a prisoner in her rewritten reality where she has full control of the universe. It's really tragic that it has come to this. In the beginning it wasn't supposed to be this way. At first she just wanted to undo Madoka's death, then Madoka made her swear to keep her from forming a contract with Kyubey. From that point on it has snowballed into something unimaginable and twisted it has surpassed rational thinking. Homura's declaration of her intentions were driven by "LOVE" but in my honest opinion, was a delusional and convoluted attempt to justify her misguided and selfish desire to save Madoka from a decision she has already decided wholeheartedly with NO REGRET whatsoever. Homura has lost herself in her original mission of saving Madoka from death and keeping her from forming a contract that she didn't even realize Madoka finally found the wish to fulfill every magical girl's hopes and dreams by becoming Hope itself. The ending of the TV series has shown us that Madoka was never saddened or regretting her choice because all of you should realize that she already knows how things will work out in the end even before it begins. She transcends time and space which means she'll be reunited with everyone eventually when their time comes for them to move on to a higher level of existence. Homura in her limited mortal form couldn't comprehend and otherwise understand what Madoka was really about and what she actually achieved for everyone's salvation. Homura decision was motivated not by LOVE but by OBSESSION. In time we'll see how Homura's world will turn out but for now she's in charge and no one can stand in her way.
"... I'm glad I could be a good person to you."
Annie Leonhart
 
Dec 9, 2013 3:57 PM
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is there any info BD release for this madoka movie 3?
cant wait for it
 
Dec 9, 2013 4:45 PM

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Janethan23 said:
Homura`s journey into madness reminds me so much of Anakin Skywalker (Darth Vader). Everything starts off so innocent with the purest intentions but along the way things don`t go the way he/she envisioned. Unfortunate and tragic events has twisted and muddled their outlook on life and has left them continuing with their cause but taking it to extreme measures that effects everything and everyone around them; even the ones they love. Homura, like Anakin has deceived and betrayed the people who loved and trusted him. In spite of all the love and trust they gave him it really wasn’t enough. Most people like this are delusional and do more harm because they are in their mind doing the right thing.

Homura's intentions has really turned for the worse. Sure she gets to finally save and protect the person she adores yet at the cost of Madoka's free will and purpose of existing. Now Madoka and everyone else is a prisoner in her rewritten reality where she has full control of the universe. It's really tragic that it has come to this. In the beginning it wasn't supposed to be this way. At first she just wanted to undo Madoka's death, then Madoka made her swear to keep her from forming a contract with Kyubey. From that point on it has snowballed into something unimaginable and twisted it has surpassed rational thinking. Homura's declaration of her intentions were driven by "LOVE" but in my honest opinion, was a delusional and convoluted attempt to justify her misguided and selfish desire to save Madoka from a decision she has already decided wholeheartedly with NO REGRET whatsoever. Homura has lost herself in her original mission of saving Madoka from death and keeping her from forming a contract that she didn't even realize Madoka finally found the wish to fulfill every magical girl's hopes and dreams by becoming Hope itself. The ending of the TV series has shown us that Madoka was never saddened or regretting her choice because all of you should realize that she already knows how things will work out in the end even before it begins. She transcends time and space which means she'll be reunited with everyone eventually when their time comes for them to move on to a higher level of existence. Homura in her limited mortal form couldn't comprehend and otherwise understand what Madoka was really about and what she actually achieved for everyone's salvation. Homura decision was motivated not by LOVE but by OBSESSION. In time we'll see how Homura's world will turn out but for now she's in charge and no one can stand in her way.


Kinda funny actually, in the brochure's for the movie, Gen Orobuchi said something very similar: (source: http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685568.html#%7C)

Stories where characters grow and change are very traditional. Does this mean that Madoka Magica is conforming to archetype?

Urobuchi: Even in “Star Wars”, Anakin is a cute little kid in Episode I, but by Episode III he grows up to be Darth Vader. But you know, “that’s how stories are”. I think the choice of whether or not to accept that is up to the viewers.

I do find myself sympathizing a lot with Homura even though she's done such a horrible thing. All she ever wanted was for Madoka to live and be happy, but the ending of the TV show denied that to her. I think she accepted it for a while, but eventually the loneliness got to her and drove her into despair. In the flower scene, Madoka tells Homura that she would never cause Homura such pain, to which Homura responds, "Are these your true feelings then? Then I was a fool to have misunderstood it. I should not have approved. I should have used every possible mean to stop you back then."

Later when Madoka pulls Homura out of her witch state, Homura apologizes for being a coward and says she'll bear any sin as long as they can be together. Homura does love Madoka, but it's a selfish love where she forces happiness upon Madoka regardless of her feelings. A lot depends of whether or not the Law of Cycles still exists within Homura's world. If it does, then magical girls are still saved before they become witches and everyone is alive again. That makes Homura's world seem ideal, although I doubt she can keep it that way without eventually facing some repercussions.
 
Dec 9, 2013 4:48 PM

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ise24 said:
is there any info BD release for this madoka movie 3?
cant wait for it


A quick Google search says not yet. I'm sure one will come out in Japan in about 4-6 months, though we'll have to wait a while for an english release.
 
Dec 9, 2013 5:51 PM

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I just finished it, I can't rate it yet. A lot of parts reminded me of EoE but I really need to see it again.
Fresh
 
Dec 9, 2013 7:13 PM
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francesthemute said:
I just finished it, I can't rate it yet. A lot of parts reminded me of EoE but I really need to see it again.

Mmm. Madoka is an all time favorite of mine so I saw it twice. Wish I got tickets to the third showing they tacked on in MA too. A third time would have been nice. Not that excessive, right? :D I've watched the TV series a good 6+ times as well.
 
Dec 9, 2013 7:32 PM

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ZenErik said:
francesthemute said:
I just finished it, I can't rate it yet. A lot of parts reminded me of EoE but I really need to see it again.

Mmm. Madoka is an all time favorite of mine so I saw it twice. Wish I got tickets to the third showing they tacked on in MA too. A third time would have been nice. Not that excessive, right? :D I've watched the TV series a good 6+ times as well.


I had to drive 7 hours round trip to Cleveland to see it, and I still want to go back and watch it again. I feel like now that I've taken the time to figure out the ending, the whole film would be really interesting on rewatch.
 
Dec 9, 2013 7:43 PM
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Just watched the movie @ the theater.
10/10.
Didn't think it would've been this good.
My 3 favorite scenes were Homura telling Kyubey to shut up, the Kyouko x Sayaka moment (yuri so canon) and Homura turning into a demon.

Demonmura was so fantastic. So mad. So incredible. And my heart is shattered because of it. Her love for Madoka was so strong ;___;

I'd honestly rewatch it again. Preferred it to the series itself tbh.
 
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