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Poll: Log Horizon Episode 4 Discussion


Oct 26, 2013 8:27 PM

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I just hope we get something else other than Thorn Bind Hostage. I would like to see Shiroe go for something else, that's for sure.

Still fun to watch though.
Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier
Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.).
Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!)
Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe
Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics.
Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it.

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Oct 26, 2013 8:33 PM

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DenjaX said:
Furrytales said:
Demikas talks about how he could have removed the bind easily. Which means Thorn Bind Hostage can be removed, probably by his healers.

Precisely why he and Nyanta must take the precise moment to do a perfect combo to pull it off. Nyanta's has the ability to weaken the enemy, the damage is probably amplified as time goes by. Which is why they need time to let Nyanta fight Demikas.

The Guardian is probably just a distraction to buy them time for the perfect wombo combo.

Pretty Legit.
not talking about PVP here. But probably bosses have debuff immunity for same skills after being used like most MMO bosses.

Sigsig said:
Not OP by raid boss standards; if you played WoW you'd know that 5k damage over 15s is minuscule compared to what main damaging classes can do. Heck, even 50k over 15s is minuscule, if you scale the numbers up to WoW's standard
Not talking about the amount of damage only but also how it incap bosses for a duration. You are talking about WoW here. Raid bosses require more people usually. A pro team of many enchanters can beat those boss but it will take some time definitely which is a disadvantage. But it is safe and effective in a way that can be used by a small party in a recommended big party boss fight. Can be a good method if you guys want to split up rares easily.

EDIT: also if we scale it to WoW's standard, 3 enchanters plus one attacker with 1 hit/sec attack speed would potentially yield damage up to 150k in 15 seconds. How? One enchanter use Bind first and attacker let them explode for 5 seconds then second enchanter will use then the third, and first would have his skill finish cooldown to reuse it... The boss would still be caged forever and couldn't even fight back...

Still minuscule? :(


Well, that is also assuming the boss doesn't develop a resistance to CC spells if it's casted repeatedly.

EDIT:
I'm pretty sure the OP part is the PvP combo where Shiroe x Nyanta did a burst of 14k in 2 seconds or so.
If you're talking about raid-wise, the DPM of an assassin or sorc is definitely higher as they can do the more damage in slightly more time

Btw, here's the author's twitter, clarifying that TBH has no bind effect -- Demikasu was binded because of another spell Shiroe casted https://twitter.com/marmalade_macro/status/394193870738579456 (i wasn't the one who asked him btw)
Modified by Sigsig, Oct 26, 2013 9:12 PM
オタクなんじゃねぃよ
I'm not an otaku.
 
Oct 26, 2013 8:37 PM

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Fitting Serara got the last hit I hope she leveled up :D
 
Oct 26, 2013 8:43 PM
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To those whom commented that a team of enchanters casting thorn bind hostage at the same time would be OP.

The limitation here is pretty obvious, from what I have seen the amount of movement a player bound by T.B.H is limited to the spot that the are rooted in. In essence its like you cannot physically move from that particular spot whatsoever when your fully binded (E.G all 5 thorns are on you), BUT you can move your body in whatsoever fashion (E.G leaning forward, backwards, sideways, lifting up your leg in an attempt to kick someone [Like demikas tried on nyanta] or to swing your arms to perform an attack and etc) as long as its confined to that particular spot. The strength of the bind however decreases as less roots are on your body, as shown when demikas with the single root bounded across his chest and do take note it is a small one; was able to attempt to leap at shiroe to attack him (where there was no roots around his legs preventing him from attempting to leap).

Next for the part on the OP if 4 enchanters and one archer post. The most obvious conclusion is that the game mechanics would not allow a multiple instances of the same status debuffs unless proven it allows for compounding stacks. E.G: 4 enchanters cast T.B.H, however only the first complete cast instance takes effect while the other 3 just resets the debuff timer. In essence it would technically be possible to continually chain down an opponent however, a straight immediate burst dmg of (4 casters x 5 thorns x 1000dmg) of 20,000 dmg would not be allowed unless you chain it like how shiroe did. However in this instance you would need a substantial amount of teamwork as well considering your 4 enchanters must not get the timing wrong that their casts would overlap and thus cancel out the previous ones and you end up with multiple 15 second cooldowns and a wasted possibility of chaining up to 20,000 dmg.

Again this is taking into assumption that the opposing team does not have a well co-ordinated party as well with on the toes healer and perhaps a support as well to cleanse the chains from the target enemy, as well as other team members interfering with the planned assault.

So assuming perfect teamwork and in a perfect world with 5 enchanters. The most would probably be an instant 25,000 chain dmg or 30,000 if you allow the first enchanter to wait for his CD, or 5,000 dmg per 3 seconds on rotating cd's.
Modified by Hanzobaby, Oct 26, 2013 8:48 PM
 
Oct 26, 2013 8:50 PM

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I expected more spells, the use of items and some characters levelling up :(
it's still very good
 
Oct 26, 2013 8:54 PM

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This is getting better!
One of the best of the season imho.
 
Oct 26, 2013 9:09 PM
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My own version of explanation about Thorn Bind Hostage an OP skill as an MMORPG player myself
Looking at that point of view, yeah it really looks so OP that wow a 5k damage for a 15 second skill is so OP and can just kill a boss in just a matter of time but NO
Remember that in an MMO games it will not work as you imagine for these reasons.
1. Higher level boss monsters have status immunity to them like they already said
2. A boss has an AOE (Area of Effect) skill that can damage the entire party so the enchanters and one hitter (like an archer) can be wipe out in just a few seconds
3. Boss mostly has an ability to summon mobs to aid him so it will be a problem if you have enchanters as it can be the focused of mobs and distract them from casting the TBH skill
4. In PVP, don't forget the Assassin class that do have a track and sneak skills which can kill your enchanter without being noticed.
5. Comparing to another classes, did you see how Demikas do a high damage on Nyanta is just a matter of seconds with continous skills because of low cooldown. In contrast your saying that Monk is also an OP class because of it.
MMORPG Rule:
There is no class that is Over Powered, it really depends on the player on how he use it and play with it because every class can be OP with a good player on it.
Like what Shiroe did, master that class and use to its maximum potential like no one can do, that's why he has a nickname the strategist of Debauchery Tea Party because of that as seen on Episode 3 with his extensive knowledge of the game
So yeah with that, it really do look like super OP but not at all
I may add another if something come into mind
Modified by Liesianthes, Oct 26, 2013 9:15 PM
 
Oct 26, 2013 9:29 PM
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looking forward to next weeks episode :)
 
Oct 26, 2013 9:41 PM

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shiranui51 said:
I expected more spells, the use of items and some characters levelling up :(
it's still very good


They're all level capped, so there will be no leveling up.

Liesianthes said:
My own version of explanation about Thorn Bind Hostage an OP skill as an MMORPG player myself
Looking at that point of view, yeah it really looks so OP that wow a 5k damage for a 15 second skill is so OP and can just kill a boss in just a matter of time but NO
Remember that in an MMO games it will not work as you imagine for these reasons.
1. Higher level boss monsters have status immunity to them like they already said
2. A boss has an AOE (Area of Effect) skill that can damage the entire party so the enchanters and one hitter (like an archer) can be wipe out in just a few seconds
3. Boss mostly has an ability to summon mobs to aid him so it will be a problem if you have enchanters as it can be the focused of mobs and distract them from casting the TBH skill
4. In PVP, don't forget the Assassin class that do have a track and sneak skills which can kill your enchanter without being noticed.
5. Comparing to another classes, did you see how Demikas do a high damage on Nyanta is just a matter of seconds with continous skills because of low cooldown. In contrast your saying that Monk is also an OP class because of it.
MMORPG Rule:
There is no class that is Over Powered, it really depends on the player on how he use it and play with it because every class can be OP with a good player on it.
Like what Shiroe did, master that class and use to its maximum potential like no one can do, that's why he has a nickname the strategist of Debauchery Tea Party because of that as seen on Episode 3 with his extensive knowledge of the game
So yeah with that, it really do look like super OP but not at all
I may add another if something come into mind


From what i gather from the thorn skill, it's just a simple root, meaning players can still attack/cast spells, but they cannot use any self displacement moves or move normally. It looks like it lasts 15 sec like the CD, but only if no one attacks the rooted target, since it seems 1 hit will remove the immobility part of the spell.

As for the monk, if a class usually has low cd spells, it usually means they don't do much with their basic attacks, and a silence can hard counter them just as strong as a stun.

And yeah, raid bosses are usually immune to ANY sort of crowd control, enchanters are most likely used for the party/raid buffs and they probably do some dps themselves
 
Oct 26, 2013 9:55 PM

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ahaha, I love the reading the posts in this topic. Makes me want to start playing MMORPGs again.

Loving Nyanta. I hope he gets lots of screen time. :D
 
Oct 26, 2013 10:51 PM
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That thorn skill isn't really overpowered, it's just there's alot of synergy with a swashbuckler and it since he can attack pretty quickly and dual wields. A guardian or monk for instance would not be able to pull off the same trick because of their lower AS, since it could be either dispelled or healed through before they are able to deal all the damage.
Modified by GD1551, Oct 27, 2013 1:25 AM
 
Oct 26, 2013 10:58 PM

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This is definitely the best episode yet, but I wonder if this anime will ever step out of mediocrity.
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Oct 26, 2013 11:25 PM

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Definitely the highlight of the season.
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Oct 26, 2013 11:59 PM

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One thing I'm loving about this show is that they are reusing the skills they've explained in the past, not doing a "new skill every episode" kind of thing.

The thorn binding skill doesn't seem OP to... It required full coordination to do that, as well as being a surprise attack to which they others couldn't react to fast enough.
Also with the fact that it required a delay for Nyanta to begin attacking for the CD to finish, he wouldn't have been able to do it a third time (not that that'd probably matter, it instanyl killed him anyway), before the allies could have done something to help.

Also as far as raids, and PVE type fights, you often see the bosses are immune to hard CC and debuffs like that outright, so they probably couldn't be bound, making a combo like that difficult. Another thing i'm sure Every mmo has, is that the bosses can have, and often do, have more health than players.
"There are no wrong turnings. Only paths we had not known we were meant to walk." - Tigana

"The genius of Guilty Crown is that they made a show so stupid and illogical that it's almost impossible to criticize properly. I don't even know where to start."
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Oct 27, 2013 12:39 AM

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The fights is getting better
Modified by MyAmy, Oct 27, 2013 12:54 AM
 
Oct 27, 2013 1:06 AM
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The best episode!!
All characters are very amazing.
I want more episodes!!
 
Oct 27, 2013 2:21 AM

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Great episode, so it appears Nyanta is more of a great friend than I thought originally! Loving how it's stayed so group-oriented too. Naotsugu taking the heat off of Nyanta as he 1v1s the enemy leader, Akatsuki taking out the support, Serara buying them time even with her minuscule heals and of course Shiroe's awesome strategy and support in the fight.

Cool they touched more on PVP and more importantly DEM CLASSES MAN! I love how they explain a lot of it too. This is what I wanted, an anime based on an MMORPG that stays true to what it is.(At least so far)

Haha fitting that Serara got the last hit, totally possible too by MMORPG standards even though there was a big level difference as he only had 1 hp left.

Kudos for a good episode though!
Touch me, you filthy casual~
 
Oct 27, 2013 3:40 AM

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Loved this episode. Nyanta and Shiroe were both awesome, the OST was pretty great too. Looking forward to next weeks episode.
 
Oct 27, 2013 3:48 AM

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I really love Log Horizon because they are staying true to MMORPG genre. However, I can already see people not liking the show too much because much of the episode is dedicated to explanations about techniques, classes, and strategies. I'm definitely interested in learning this world of Elder Tale and the fight scenes prove pretty entertaining, but just a thought that this anime might not be for everyone.
 
Oct 27, 2013 3:53 AM

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Epic fighting scenes!!
 
Oct 27, 2013 4:14 AM
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The fight in this episode was long and much better than previous episodes. I have to admit that I'm starting to like this anime after this episode.The first two episodes were boring for me, the third was slightly better, and this got even better.
 
Oct 27, 2013 6:35 AM

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Akatsuki, you should hug Shiroe more tightly.


and still waiting patiently for a 3rd season of Spice & Wolf :'|
 
Oct 27, 2013 7:51 AM

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Nice strategy there Shiroe.
 
Oct 27, 2013 8:05 AM

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Holy crap!!! I cant remember when was the last time i had this big nerdgasm!!! PURE AWESOMNESS!!! Dat fight scenes, omg!

As a huge MMORPG fan...I friking LOVE this show!!!

And i must say, this is the only anime i have encountered in my life where explaning what characters did was actually usefull and not boring...!

Me wantz more of Log Horizon! >.<
 
Oct 27, 2013 8:20 AM
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A good episode, but if quite frankly suffered from very obvious plot armor.

The whole fight is essentially run in slow motion until thorn bind hostage is cast, and then everything goes back to normal time but with no damage to anyone for 15s.

Moving the cast of the first thorn bind hostage to just before Castle of Stone would have made the whole tactic seem far more credible. (as in fit far more with the pace of the rest of the battle)
Modified by wildclaw, Oct 27, 2013 8:24 AM
 
Oct 27, 2013 10:48 AM

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Castle of Stone provides 10s (or something) complete immunity.... lets hope he doesn't have it macroed to his hearthstone =}


also, Nyanta is BA.
Serara is cute

Minor gripe: needs moar Akatsuki
I want Rambo in a mecha-suit with a laser-chainsaw gun that fires nuclear warheads, fighting the love-child of Predator, Alien, a group of Bangladeshi terrorists, and Satan. (Actually that would be a pretty sick show) - StopDropAndBowl
 
Oct 27, 2013 11:17 AM
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That battle was pretty intense. Demikas got outplayed hard. Thorn Bind does seem abit OP tho.
 
Oct 27, 2013 11:54 AM

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still don't understand why that demikas dude so obsessed over little girl.. lolicon maybe?
these guys said " i want to go to heaven ". they didn't even realise their action is leading them to hell.
 
Oct 27, 2013 12:55 PM

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dend08 said:
still don't understand why that demikas dude so obsessed over little girl.. lolicon maybe?


Maybe XD

But she could have found out about something and wanted to capture her. Hope to find out when they get back.
 
Oct 27, 2013 2:19 PM

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wildclaw said:
A good episode, but if quite frankly suffered from very obvious plot armor.

The whole fight is essentially run in slow motion until thorn bind hostage is cast, and then everything goes back to normal time but with no damage to anyone for 15s.

Moving the cast of the first thorn bind hostage to just before Castle of Stone would have made the whole tactic seem far more credible. (as in fit far more with the pace of the rest of the battle)


I wondered the same thing as you actually, before I realised that the Castle of Stone (as well as Serara's healing) are both bluffs to make Demikas and co. believe that Shiroe's party is getting desperate and thus making them anxious to finish the fight quickly. This achieves a few effects. First, it allows Akatsuki's presence to go unnoticed and more importantly, it allows Shiroe to cast his spells without hindrance. Now, that scene would look rather plot armour-ish because frankly speaking, it was not adapted that well. I've re-read that scene as it is in the original novel and it showed Demikas actually doing serious damage to Nyanta during the 14 seconds before the latter finally attacked.
 
Oct 27, 2013 2:21 PM
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I hope we get to a point in which no more skills performed by the main characters will be revealed. Revealing new skills for a strategy to work isn't really all that impressive. Well still better than rushing in with a sword and just simple slash slash though.
 
Oct 27, 2013 2:32 PM

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I love everything about this show. And not enought Akatsuki but Serara kinda made up for it.
 
Oct 27, 2013 4:36 PM

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I wonder how much EXP that little healer got from beating the evil guild master.
 
Oct 27, 2013 4:45 PM
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Totally loving how Nyanta and Shiro take hints from one another DURING battle. Makes me wonder why the DTP broke up and what happened to the rest of members. If Nyantas online, does that mean the others could/would have been online.
 
Oct 27, 2013 4:59 PM

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A few things about T.B.H.
  • It's only effect is to deal damage, the root effect was from Astral Bind being casted at the same time (confirmed by author via twitter)
  • Can only be broken physically by other players (useless solo)
  • Only does 1k dmg per thorn at MAX level, which pretty much makes Shiroe a 1 trick pony (You can't max every skill for your class, IIRC you only get enough points/allowances for 3 maxed skills, and maxing a skill required more than just 'leveling up')


As for why DTP broke up...
 
Oct 27, 2013 10:57 PM

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BurntJelly said:
I wonder how much EXP that little healer got from beating the evil guild master.

You can get EXP from PK'ing other players? This is the first i've heard of this

 
Oct 27, 2013 11:42 PM
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Wait what!? Nyanta was the chief of the Tea Party? I thought the chief was the girl from last episode. Whoever the player is, he/she sure likes to do random as hell builds & personalities.

Loving the whole battle and "we can fight without even speaking to each other" thing the three ex-Tea Party members had going on, but Thorn Bind Hostage again? Meh, I would like to see a new spell from Shiroe.

And what, Assassins have the highest attack in this game? Holy shit, too OP.

Hope next episode reveals what happened to the rest of the Tea Party members. The ED seems to show a lot more of them.
 
Oct 27, 2013 11:46 PM

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ChronosXIII said:
Wait what!? Nyanta was the chief of the Tea Party? I thought the chief was the girl from last episode. Whoever the player is, he/she sure likes to do random as hell builds & personalities.


"Chief" is just a nickname Shiroe gives to Nyanta, primarily because of the latter's seniority in the group I believe (maybe "Captain" would sound more appropriate?). The de facto leader of the Tea Party was that girl in that flashback in episode 3.
 
Oct 28, 2013 2:08 AM

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I think someone seriously needs to remind Demikas that it's just a game. I swear, this is seriously how things would end up in a game like this. Trolls upon trolls using the excuse that it's just a game to waste people's lives. And for the time being spawn killing and forcing people to obey you is the exact same thing as slavery, and the spawn killing might as well be murder since they don't exist half the time and are unable to do anything at all.

And I still say that opening is a Japanese Beastie Boys meets Japanese Ozzy Osbourne.

DJIzzyIzzyHitler said:
RedArmyShogun said:
Hmm. I like how this show breaks several molds. Anyone still calling it a SAO clone still is frankly, a moron.
call me childish names all you want, its still a sao clone due to its identical premise, doesnt matter how much better it is, its quality has nothing to do with whether its a clone or not

Even sao had this mmo talk at the start even if it disappeared later, thats why im hoping log horizon keeps it up like it has been
It's not that it isn't a clone because "it's better" or because of quality... he didn't even say that. Breaking the mold means doing it differently, not setting some par (if that was a misunderstanding). If you want to go on thinking it's a clone that's fine. But having the same premise doesn't make it a copy... you might as well say every slice of life / school anime is a clone because people go to school, lol. Ignoring quality all together, this is nothing like Sword Art in any way. Log Horizon has abilities, classes, and people don't seem to die IRL in LH. There was also no magic or races, at least in the first half. There doesn't appear to be any police force in this, and thus far there's no set goal for everyone or really much incentive to do anything at all, and unlike SAO, this game takes place in the real world, as well as being a much larger world. I could go on, but this is probably all mentioned in the thread comparing the two.

Chokko said:
Could someone tell me why the bad guys wanted to get Serara? It seems that I completely missed the point. >.<"
I believe it's a sickness called trolling... it could be just a myth, but I hear that there is no point to it.
Modified by HalibelTheEspada, Oct 28, 2013 2:12 AM
 
Oct 28, 2013 3:28 AM

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awesome episode..
lol looks like shiroe and nyanta are a friend since long time :3
DAT nyan nyan nyan :3 XD
and DAT strategy :3 really nice fight scene btw :3
 
Oct 28, 2013 4:53 AM

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ChronosXIII said:
Wait what!? Nyanta was the chief of the Tea Party? I thought the chief was the girl from last episode. Whoever the player is, he/she sure likes to do random as hell builds & personalities.


I believe a this nickname its because his Cooking skills, he is The Cooking Chief of D.Tea Party or something like this. Like as hinted for us on episode 3. Maybe he can do something with taste ^^
 
Oct 28, 2013 5:03 AM

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So cliche, pathetic, awful, filled with 10 year old moe girls... Just the right thing for all those braindead otakus out there...
 
Oct 28, 2013 5:09 AM

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TimeTravel_0 said:
So cliche, pathetic, awful, filled with 10 year old moe girls... Just the right thing for all those braindead otakus out there...


So you read the whole LN even though you hated it? Or someone sent you the full series ahead of time and you watched it all? Time travel perhaps?

Personally I can't tell exactly how this will play out from the first 4 episodes I watched so you are a better man than I.
Railroad switch
 
Oct 28, 2013 5:31 AM

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JustLurking said:
TimeTravel_0 said:
So cliche, pathetic, awful, filled with 10 year old moe girls... Just the right thing for all those braindead otakus out there...


So you read the whole LN even though you hated it? Or someone sent you the full series ahead of time and you watched it all? Time travel perhaps?

Personally I can't tell exactly how this will play out from the first 4 episodes I watched so you are a better man than I.

Can't you tell? The username reveals all. I think he knows what he's saying.

He's an enemy of enjoyment I reckon.
Deconstruction ≠ Darker & Edgier
Trope ≠ Cliché (Face it, nothing is completely original. Can't make something from nothing so to say.).
Fanservice ≠ Ecchi (Though ecchi can please the fans!)
Popular ≠ Sucks... maybe
Seinen = K-ON! Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen and Josei are demographics.
Anime/Manga = Japanese Cartoons! Deal with it.

Support Movember. Raise awareness of men's health issues. Put a mustache on your avatars or something...
 
Oct 28, 2013 5:35 AM

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That was my zinger!

I'm a bit worried he can travel through time now, that'd make me look like a total douchetard.
Railroad switch
 
Oct 28, 2013 5:37 AM

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TimeTravel_0 said:
So cliche, pathetic, awful, filled with 10 year old moe girls... Just the right thing for all those braindead otakus out there...


I refuse myself to feed Trolls, please go back to you seat and wait the next tread :)
 
Oct 28, 2013 7:46 AM

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4/5

Episode very convincing as ever in terms of play MMORPG with many explanations and tactics with well-established, even a little too run-in, almost abused. So as to be a bit boring his vision. Plot that does not excite much, now I want to know what is behind this fantastic world of The Elder. If all goes well as it promises the promo, I will be satisfied! ^ ^ "
Animations and good designs, characters always charismatic, well the bad guys are not as flat as you can think of.
 
Oct 28, 2013 9:24 AM

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HalfMetalJacket said:
JustLurking said:
TimeTravel_0 said:
So cliche, pathetic, awful, filled with 10 year old moe girls... Just the right thing for all those braindead otakus out there...


So you read the whole LN even though you hated it? Or someone sent you the full series ahead of time and you watched it all? Time travel perhaps?

Personally I can't tell exactly how this will play out from the first 4 episodes I watched so you are a better man than I.

Can't you tell? The username reveals all. I think he knows what he's saying.

He's an enemy of enjoyment I reckon.
shit man hes the most credible guy on the internet, thanks to him im keeping a good look out for all the great shows coming out in 2019

Immahnoob said:
Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit,

tokiyashiro said:

Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me

 
Oct 28, 2013 9:39 AM

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I'm pretty sure every 2019 anime is cliche trash
Railroad switch
 
Oct 28, 2013 1:02 PM

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NYAAANTAAA!!! That's all I have to say...
 
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