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| The comments in the Naruto Chapter Discussions are more predictable than the manga itself. Either way, this was an OK chapter. There were plenty of nice things to enjoy, but seeing that Obito has pretty much been confirmed for TnJ is kinda sad. I just hope Kakashi will be the one to do it and maybe kill him too. Or maybe Madara take over him instead when Obito gives up. link9us said: This chapter was pretty pointless, i was hoping kishimoto would reveal something unexpected. That "and finally" caught my attention on the previous chapter, but nothing happen, just more talking bout the same old crap and sasuske and naruto have not managed to do hardly anything to obito yet. It is so clear at this point that kishimoto is stalling, for what reason i don't know. I guessed as to what it was last week; Obito was hiding inside something, remember? So I guessed that the "and finally" was about finally getting him to "come out of his shell" to fight. |
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| Obito just likes to repeat the same shit all over again. I mean I swear he said the same thing just a couple chapters ago. He gotta realize Naruto ain't gonna budge. |
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| Wow I actually almost fell asleep reading this chapter, pretty pointless and boring :/ SimmianPrime said: I feel the same way, its getting rather oldI feel like I've read this exact chapter.....many.....many times. Kishi is almost literally just copy+pasting now. |
Shape430Oct 9, 2013 4:46 AM
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| As much as I love Naruto, there has been really no battle scenes at all. Kishi should give us a chapter of more battles and less dialogues... |
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LadyDiana said: Come on ! Obito is the biggest shit as a villain EVER ! His lame excuse to start this war is basically because he lost Rin. DUDE, that's the most terrible reason to be a villain I've ever read. Madara is okay as a villain (he lost all his brothers) and so would be Sasuke (for the reason we all know) but seriously ? For RIN ?! Who wasn't really his girlfriend ! I mean, I love Sakura, she's my favourite female character of the series, but if she died and Naruto wanted to start a war for JUST that, I would call BS just the same. I swear even Disney villains are 1000000000000times more credible than Obito. But yeah, I guess it depends what your criteria for a good villiain are (u_u). I would've taken this in a more serious way if you had other problems with the character other than his obsession with Rin. The reson Obito started a war was to drag Naruto and Killer Bee out in the open, then capture them, extract the remaining Bijuu and revive the Juubi. When that proved to be too dificult, he decided to revive the Juubi in its incomplete form. Had Obito managed to capture all Bijuu since the beginning there would have been no war and the Infinite Tsukuyomi would have been launched, so it's useless to blame Rin for this. You also seem to think that Obito's goal is to murder everyone during the war (or something along those lines), but in reality the war doesn't mean much to him, it's nothing more than means to an end. The reason why I love Obito so much as a villain (together with Madara) is because, at the end of the day, he is right. He isn't in the wrong in this situation. His views of the world are shared by both sides of the conflict, the difference lies in what each one decides to do about it, and Obito's and Madara's plan is the right thing to do... or rather, it's not the wrong thing to do. This is a situation where there isn't a right answer, and therefore there aren't wrong answers either. |
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
| Talk no jutsu activated. Time for Naruto's ultimate jutsu technique. While Obito as talking i was thinking Nagato should sew him for copyright. |
MonadOct 13, 2013 12:59 PM
| WoW, we got lots of... the same thing. With some well, action this time. Did Kishimoto forgot he only gave 5 minutes to Naruto? He better hurry up. I just hate how Obito could have finished this battle lots of chapters ago (and yes he has the power to do this) but is just stalling. I mean, c'mon, he's the most OP character now, he just grabed both of the heroes and he dont kill them? That Kakashi speech just make me sad as we can predict a Talk no jutsu coming, and Obito is willing to let it hit him. WTH Kishimoto? Why don't you create a villain that is imune to this? Even Orochimaru is almost good now... And that nindo crap again... Am I the only one who think it make no sense at this point? Ok I hope that that Bijuu-Susanoo combination finish this battle and not a Talk-no-jutsu. P.S.: Have Sasuke's eyes chaged? |
| Recent chapters have been to slow, but when Naruto said his ninja way that gave me some nostalgia.... haven't heard him say that in a while. |
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| Nice chapter. This is by far the longest fight in Naruto history |
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Aloxamax said: I would've taken this in a more serious way if you had other problems with the character other than his obsession with Rin. The reson Obito started a war was to drag Naruto and Killer Bee out in the open, then capture them, extract the remaining Bijuu and revive the Juubi. When that proved to be too dificult, he decided to revive the Juubi in its incomplete form. Had Obito managed to capture all Bijuu since the beginning there would have been no war and the Infinite Tsukuyomi would have been launched, so it's useless to blame Rin for this. You also seem to think that Obito's goal is to murder everyone during the war (or something along those lines), but in reality the war doesn't mean much to him, it's nothing more than means to an end. The reason why I love Obito so much as a villain (together with Madara) is because, at the end of the day, he is right. He isn't in the wrong in this situation. His views of the world are shared by both sides of the conflict, the difference lies in what each one decides to do about it, and Obito's and Madara's plan is the right thing to do... or rather, it's not the wrong thing to do. This is a situation where there isn't a right answer, and therefore there aren't wrong answers either. Sure, had he managed to get Hachibi and Kyuubi before, the war wouldn't have been started. But if you think of the very reason of WHY he is doing all that crap, it's ONLY because he wants a world where Rin is still alive. And no, I don't think he wants to murder everyone. I think he wants a lot of people to still be alive in the world he "will" create so they can all acknowledge it as their reality as well as his. Other reason why I think he's a crappy villain is because he is was used by Madara (the real brains of the whole thing) : Obito got this new ideal thanks to Madara, but ONLY when it was of use to him. If your remember the chapter explaining what happened after Madara found Obito : Obito's sole obsession at that time was to go back to Konoha to see Kakashi, his master and his ~precious~ Rin. And he always refused to side with Madara UNTIL he saw Rin dead. Only then, he decided to follow his idea. You see, I don't really like villains who are influenced by others' ideas. This is also why (Orochi-)Kabuto is on par with Obito to me. Both terrible villains... also, I don't agree with you, Obito ISN'T right... maybe you could say that Nagato was (he wanted peace in the REAL world, he just used the wrong methods as Naruto says himself), but Obito just want everybody to live in his own little world because he is dissatisifed with the real one... geez, 'sound like a teenager ! Even Sasuke wasn't that much of a coward (as a villain, I mean) because he wanted to deliver "his justice" in this world, not another one... So yeah, if I had to sum up, I'd say that to me, Obito is pretty much a teen taking drugs to live in another world (because this one is too crappy~ !) and who wants everybody to take drugs too so they'll live in his "false" world together with him, and so he won't be alone in his delirium. Now, as a side character, part of Kakashi's team as kids, I didn't mind him ! I found him pretty heroic and all, but Kishi ruined him for me when making him a villain. I even prefered him as Tobi (at least, he was funny u_u). |
LadyDianaOct 10, 2013 10:06 AM
LadyDiana said: But if you think of the very reason of WHY he is doing all that crap, it's ONLY because he wants a world where Rin is still alive. I don't think that's the only reason. Remember what he saw? He saw Kakashi, his best friend, kill Rin, his crush, despite promising him that he will protect her in his stead. He mentions that this caused him to lose trust in the shinobi world. He may (probably) have learnt the true reason why she was killed, but I think that would further cement his position that the shinobi world was really "low", if you know what I mean by that (can't put it into words properly). So yeah, while Rin is the main reason for his villainy, I don't think it's the only reason. As for Tobi, Tobi was a good boy. As for Sasuke, I don't think he knew it was even possible to cast Infinite Tsukiyomi. If he did, I'm willing to be he would've tried to do so. |
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yhunata said: I don't think that's the only reason. Remember what he saw? He saw Kakashi, his best friend, kill Rin, his crush, despite promising him that he will protect her in his stead. He mentions that this caused him to lose trust in the shinobi world. He may (probably) have learnt the true reason why she was killed, but I think that would further cement his position that the shinobi world was really "low", if you know what I mean by that (can't put it into words properly). So yeah, while Rin is the main reason for his villainy, I don't think it's the only reason. As for Tobi, Tobi was a good boy. As for Sasuke, I don't think he knew it was even possible to cast Infinite Tsukiyomi. If he did, I'm willing to be he would've tried to do so. Hmmm... then I think it depends on how you view Obito : - does he do all that stuff in order to get revenge for all the victims of the "system of shinobi" that is rotten according to him ? - OR does he do it because his beloved Rin was the victim of that shinobi world ? TBH, I'd say it's the second option. I don't think he'd give a rat' ass if it were someone other that Rin. But on that matter, nobody knows the answer (only Kishimoto). About Sasuke, (and here again, it's only my assumption, only Kishimoto knows) I don't think he would have used Tsukiyomi before destroying Konoha. Obito doesn't really care for people to suffer as much as he did (he still needs them to live in his world after all, and I believe it was when he and Kakashi were in the other dimension... Obito said that he didn't wan't to get revenge on Kakashi who wasn't able to protect Rin), but Sasuke wanted people to pay and suffer as much as the Uchihas did. When Kakashi asked him to stop his evil doing (after the fight with Danzou), he said he would gladly do if his people were given back to him. I don't think he would be satisfied with a false/copy of his clan brought back to life, unlike Obito who wants to live in his fake world to have a fake Rin "given" back to him, but about that, as I said, no one else than Kishimoto really knows x). |
LadyDiana said: Sure, had he managed to get Hachibi and Kyuubi before, the war wouldn't have been started. But if you think of the very reason of WHY he is doing all that crap, it's ONLY because he wants a world where Rin is still alive. Here's my comment on Obito's (and others') character from another topic: LadyDiana said: Other reason why I think he's a crappy villain is because he is was used by Madara (the real brains of the whole thing) : Obito got this new ideal thanks to Madara, but ONLY when it was of use to him. If your remember the chapter explaining what happened after Madara found Obito : Obito's sole obsession at that time was to go back to Konoha to see Kakashi, his master and his ~precious~ Rin. And he always refused to side with Madara UNTIL he saw Rin dead. Only then, he decided to follow his idea. You see, I don't really like villains who are influenced by others' ideas. This is also why (Orochi-)Kabuto is on par with Obito to me. Both terrible villains... This is not true, Obito wasn't used by Madara at any point. Madara only tried to actually use him once, that's when he tried to force Obito to use the Gedou: Rinne Tensei to revive him. Madara's plan was to have Nagato use his Rinnegan to revive him when the time was right. After Nagato died, Obito took his Rinnegan to be able to control the Gedou Mazou and complete the Infinite Tsukuyomi. At no point did Obito plan to bring back Madara, basically he said 'Screw you! I'm going solo!' as soon as Madara originally died. The only thing that could've made him follow Madara's orders was the fact that half of his body was created by Madara, and thus he could try to control him the way he did in chapter 636-637, but like in those chapters, Obito could've blocked his attempt, so he wasn't being used. LadyDiana said: also, I don't agree with you, Obito ISN'T right... maybe you could say that Nagato was (he wanted peace in the REAL world, he just used the wrong methods as Naruto says himself), but Obito just want everybody to live in his own little world because he is dissatisifed with the real one... geez, 'sound like a teenager ! Even Sasuke wasn't that much of a coward (as a villain, I mean) because he wanted to deliver "his justice" in this world, not another one... So yeah, if I had to sum up, I'd say that to me, Obito is pretty much a teen taking drugs to live in another world (because this one is too crappy~ !) and who wants everybody to take drugs too so they'll live in his "false" world together with him, and so he won't be alone in his delirium. If he wants everybody to live in 'his own little world' as you put it, how is that wrong? How do you know that Obito's world is not in fact better than the supposed 'real' world? Why is Obito's world any less real than the others? As for the teenager comment, that's only because in our own reality nobody has ever had the power to change the world in such a huge way, people who have accepted this view anybody who says otherwise as foolish, changing the world singlehandedly as nothing but a child's dream... but here, in the Narutoverse, there are entities capable of doing it, so we can't judge them with our standards. It's like not taking a 12 year old Naruto seriously when he said he would become Hokage when he now is the one who is most likely to become the next Hokage. It's like not taking a 10 year old Hitler seriously if he said he would one day lead one of the most powerful armies in the world to war. When he he eventually managed to do so. LadyDiana said: Now, as a side character, part of Kakashi's team as kids, I didn't mind him ! I found him pretty heroic and all, but Kishi ruined him for me when making him a villain. I even prefered him as Tobi (at least, he was funny u_u). He is Naruto's biggest test (so to speak), because both of them used to be so alike. Obito actually almost managed to make Naruto give up on two occasions already. |
AloxamaxOct 10, 2013 1:05 PM
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
| @Aloxamax First, kudos to you dude for hitting Godwin's law in a NARUTO discussion xDDD ! I didn't think it was possible ! When I say that Obito had been used (I wouldn't say manipulated, but used), I mean in the earlier stages of Madara's plan (just after Rin's death). Now, did Obito plan on betraying Madara at that time (the way Sasuke did with Orochimaru), I don't know and I don't even care. What I want to say is that Obito executed the whole Tsuki no Me project that was FIRST thought by Madara, instead of coming up with his own idea to change the world. That's what I mean by "used by Madara". Now, it's true that Obito is only doing it for his interest, but in a way or another, Madara got what he wanted, thanks to Obito who did all the job for him. So okay, EVERYTHING didn't go the way Madara planned (as you said, he wasn't brought back to life by Nagato, etc.), but the thing is that Tsuki no Me is being realized right now, and even as a simple Edo Tensei, Madara is able to witness it. Also, excuse me, but I find this part of your comment a little bit "shocking" NARUTO-wise : Aloxamax said: If he wants everybody to live in 'his own little world' as you put it, how is that wrong? How do you know that Obito's world is not in fact better than the supposed 'real' world? Why is Obito's world any less real than the others? As for the teenager comment, that's only because in our own reality nobody has ever had the power to change the world in such a huge way, people who have accepted this view anybody who says otherwise as foolish, changing the world singlehandedly as nothing but a child's dream... but here, in the Narutoverse, there are entities capable of doing it, so we can't judge them with our standards. We both read the same manga, right ? Then in this case, I think you understand that one of the BIGGEST theme in NARUTO is about how one overcomes the sadness of a dear person's death, and we have MANY example of that : - Naruto himself, with Jiraya (I don't count his parents since he never got to know them) - Sasuke with Itachi/his clan deaths - Team 10 with Asuma (and Shikamaru/ino with their dads) - Neji with his father (and how Naruto got him to stop resent the main branch about that) - Hinata with Neji (and I HATE this example for many reasons, but I'm going to use it anyway) - and so many other characters that I don't mention them (Tsunade, Kakashi, Inari, Konan& Nagato, etc.) Why am I mentionning them ? It's because they all more or less lost someone precious, they all live in the "rotten shinobi world", and yet they managed to go forward, to overcome their sadness to side with Naruto at the end... okay, most of them changed thanks to Naruto but what I want to say is that they didn't start a war or tried to live in a fake world to escape reality. Because yeah, the reality in NARUTO is bitter, but they all overcame it. Sasuke, the most extreme example of them all, even if he had his "I'll kill everyone to make you pay" moment, eventually seeked the truth by himself and it got him to the conclusion that he'd become Hokage to change the world in his own way, to prevent what happened to his clan to happen again. Whether Obito's world would be better than the one they're currently living in, it is not relevant on this matter. MAYBE it would be better, and MAYBE they would all be happier in it, but what Naruto and the SA is now fighting for is to protect their world because they're attached to it. They don't want to live in HIS dream. If he wants to live in a Genjutsu world, that's perfectly fine ! But why is he imposing it to everybody else ? Just because he hasn't been able to accept his loss, just because he hasn't been able to accept the hard reality of the "real" world, he wants everybody to follow him in his dreamy world. This is really pathetic compared to Naruto and the Gokage who have accepted the mistakes and the pain from the past to learn from them and try to create a better shinobi system in the world they're already living in. This is why Obito is pitiful to me, and this is what I personally perceive from Kishimoto's story : the one who could accept and change reality VS the ones who DON'T want to push the reset button and who will go forward in life no matter what. Now, I agree with you on two things : - Naruto and himself used to be alike - he made Naruto's will weaken twice now But to these things, I'll say : - "USED TO" -> meaning that Obito is what Naruto would have became if he didn't meet Iruka, Sasuke, etc. Meaning that the ONE and ONLY excuse we could find to explain Obito's development would be because he was alone (or with Madara, which wasn't a good compagny to grow sanely) - sure, Naruto is a hero, but a "human" hero, so it's normal to start doubting sometimes, but this is what side characters are for : Naruto gave them the strength to overcome their problems at some time of their life, they then give this strength back to him when he starts needing it (for instance, the first time he lost faith, Hinata gently reminded him of what he was there for, and that she was with him if he needed her + the rest of his friends). So yeah, that's the purpose of the secondary characters in the manga (at least, at its advanced stage) : being there for the main character when he feels alone/lost, in contrast with the beginning of the story when he was alone -> but THIS is what Obito isn't/wasn't lacking : he could have tried to sort things out with Kakashi and Minato (before Kyuubi's attack), but he didn't, which makes him weaker than Naruto in my eyes, who always wanted to create bonds with people Phew... sorry for the wall of text... hope there aren't too many typos and grammar mistakes... |
| Don't worry about the wall of text, I care more about what you're trying to say. LadyDiana said: the reality in NARUTO is bitter, but they all overcame it But why did they have to overcome it? It was because they couldn't change it, but what if you had the power to change that fact? Like Obito does now? And I would say that overcoming death is nothing more than a way to present what the real problem is: the cycle of hatred. The death of a loved one is the one thing that truly can't be undone (unless you're one of those ninjas, the overpowered lot of them) and therefore is the wound that's hardest to heal, if it can be healed at all. The Shinobi world is full of death, and a lot of hatred is created because of it. A wife kills the father of a little girl because said man killed her sister. The little girl then grows up and kills the wife to avenge her father. The wife's husband then strikes against the girl but dies. Their son learns this and seeks to kill the girl. It is a viscious cycle, and it is being driven forward by death and loss. Jiraiya's death (along with the attack on Konoha) was a way to create hatred within Naruto against Nagato, a hatred that he overcame and thus managed to forgive him at the end. LadyDiana said: If he wants to live in a Genjutsu world, that's perfectly fine ! But why is he imposing it to everybody else ? What would you do if you saw a friend trying to commit suicide? Would you stop them even if they didn't want you to? LadyDiana said: Just because he hasn't been able to accept his loss, just because he hasn't been able to accept the hard reality of the "real" world, he wants everybody to follow him in his dreamy world. But, the only reason why you would have to accept your loss, or even accept the reality of the 'real' world is because you can't do nothing against it in the first place. Obito can. I keep repeating it, you can't judge it the same way because his world works differently. LadyDiana said: This is really pathetic compared to Naruto and the Gokage who have accepted the mistakes and the pain from the past to learn from them and try to create a better shinobi system in the world they're already living in. What have the Gokage done? They've caused three wars already, and the Shinobi system hasn't changed at all. Also Naruto hasn't done anything concrete yet, while he's had many personal victories and is a key element to winning the battle that's going on right now, the only thing he's got going on is that a lot of people believe in him. While that sounds good, there's nothing saying that he'll succeed in creating 'true peace'. LadyDiana said: This is why Obito is pitiful to me, and this is what I personally perceive from Kishimoto's story : the one who could accept and change reality VS the ones who DON'T want to push the reset button and who will go forward in life no matter what. You can't change reality if you accept it (not on purpose atleast). You change it because you don't accept it. Both sides of this conflict want to create 'true peace'. Naruto's side thinks it's possible for it to exist in the world they're living in. They want to prove Obito and Madara wrong. Obito's side doesn't think it's possible for it to exist in the world they're living in. They think something like that can only exist in dreams (there's the whole in your dreams saying). So they will create a dream world, and take everyone there. I think that the bulk of the argument is that you see Obito not being able to let go of the past...as a weakness while there's no reason for him to do so. If you have a way to change reality as you pleased, why would you let go of the past? Why would you need to overcome the death of a loved one? We need to overcome that, we need to be able to let go of the past. Because we can't change the way the world works. |
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
| At a moment I thought Obito's talk was much like Nagato... but Naruto's simple and quick reply made up for that! It was a nice chapter! :) |
| UGH, Kishimoto, please stop repeating the chapters like this. I was so hyped last week to see Sasuke and Naruto pwn Obito. We get it already, Obito is hateful and wants to crush Naruto. WE COVERED THAT ALREADY, SO PLEASE STOP THE FILLER AND GET TO THE EPICNESS. |
Aloxamax said: Don't worry about the wall of text, I care more about what you're trying to say. LadyDiana said: the reality in NARUTO is bitter, but they all overcame it But why did they have to overcome it? It was because they couldn't change it, but what if you had the power to change that fact? Like Obito does now? I'm a bit late to reply but whatever... Kishimoto already answered to that question. This is the whole purpose of the ROAD TO NINJA movie. Naruto got to meet his parents, spent a good time with them, but in the end, he realized that he can't have fun in this fake reality because it not the real one, so it was not satisfying. Sure, it was Obito's deed, but since it was a nice world for Naruto to live in, he could have stayed there if he really thought it was good. Now, more generally, if Kishimoto is making all his character fight Obito, it's because for him and "them", Obito's plan is not right. Otherwise, they'd all gladly accept it. And this vicious circle like you say is what Naruto is trying to break. So I'm going to return your ealier question : what makes you think that the world Naruto is trying to create is not even better than the one Obito is offering ? And what makes Naruto's choice even better is that he doesn't want to use violence to create this new world, but Obito does. And what have the Gokage created ? Nothing yet ! What has Naruto achieved ? To this again, I answer 'nothing yet' too ! They didn't have the chance to do anything yet, because the Gokage just created the alliance, just to fight the war, but tell you they won't manage to create a better world to live in IN this reality ? We can't judge them yet. What I know is that Obito excuse to create his world AND his methods are both terrible. About Obito imposing his dream to everybody, it has nothing to do with a friend committing suicide (you were the one telling me not to use our reality standards in the manga, right ;) ?). Nobody is in such a position. If he wants to create his world, fine, but he should do it for only people willing to live in it. And since everybody is fighting against him, it simply means that nobody wants to live in his world. Aloxamax said: You can't change reality if you accept it (not on purpose atleast). You change it because you don't accept it. Both sides of this conflict want to create 'true peace'. Naruto's side thinks it's possible for it to exist in the world they're living in. They want to prove Obito and Madara wrong. Obito's side doesn't think it's possible for it to exist in the world they're living in. They think something like that can only exist in dreams (there's the whole in your dreams saying). So they will create a dream world, and take everyone there. I think that the bulk of the argument is that you see Obito not being able to let go of the past...as a weakness while there's no reason for him to do so. If you have a way to change reality as you pleased, why would you let go of the past? Why would you need to overcome the death of a loved one? We need to overcome that, we need to be able to let go of the past. Because we can't change the way the world works. Your argument here is not valid : it is true that you can't change reality by accepting sad facts, but Obito cannot change either. And that's what I'm trying to tell you from the beginning, Obito can NOT change reality, this is why he wants to create a new one in which he'll always be right. Because he is powerless about the world he lives in, he wants to create a new one : he is cowardly trying to live in something that doesn't exist just to deny the fact that he failed to do anything good in his life. But this discussion can go on forever... I understand why you like him as a villain, but to me, a villain that doesn't try to change/erase things in the reality he lives in to shape it according his own will is a villain that suxx x). ------------- On a totally different note : I think I understood why the manga is dragging so much lately : in a previous chapter, it was mentionned that Naruto would be able to live "tomorrow", the day of his birthday after his battle against Obito. I think Kishimoto was waiting for his "real" birthday to happen (on 10/10) to make the battle at its peak. Just my guess, though. |
| Man you make me write a lot... it's interesting though. LadyDiana said: I think Kishimoto was waiting for his "real" birthday to happen (on 10/10) to make the battle at its peak. Just my guess, though. First things first: I hope this isn't true, because it would be so cheesy (T.T). Then again, Naruto has been cheesy in many different occasions, it makes sense that Kishimoto could be like that too. LadyDiana said: I'm a bit late to reply but whatever... Kishimoto already answered to that question. This is the whole purpose of the ROAD TO NINJA movie. Naruto got to meet his parents, spent a good time with them, but in the end, he realized that he can't have fun in this fake reality because it not the real one, so it was not satisfying. Sure, it was Obito's deed, but since it was a nice world for Naruto to live in, he could have stayed there if he really thought it was good. Now, more generally, if Kishimoto is making all his character fight Obito, it's because for him and "them", Obito's plan is not right. Otherwise, they'd all gladly accept it. Well, I saw that movie differently: I think the reason Naruto chose to go back to his own world is because he actually did not belong to the alternate one. 'His' friends knew the alternate Naruto, 'his' parents raised and knew the alternate Naruto, they formed bonds with the Naruto they always knew. This is pretty clear during the scene where Naruto decides to go save Sakura, his 'parents' try to stop him because it's too dangerous. Yet back in his original world, his parents entrusted him with the future of the Shinobi world. Naruto himself (the original one) formed his own unique bonds with his own friends and parents, so if he decided to remain in the alternate world he would be doing three things that go against what he's defending right now: - He would be destroying the bonds he's already formed (yeah, like he'll ever do that) by basically abandoning his original friends - He would be breaking his promises: to Sakura, to Nagato, to Jiraiya and to his parents - He would be pretending to be a Naruto he's not It wasn't a matter of 'fake' or 'real', but a matter of 'different', he left simply because it wasn't his world, not because he believed it to be fake. Another reason why I'm so against the fake/real thing is because it's too simple, too shortsighted for what the manga tries to do (I'm not insulting you, I'm just saying that while the manga can be seen as that, it would be counterproductive to what it tries to do). It's just so easy to argue against. Kishimoto obviously believes that our own world can become peaceful, through Naruto he tries to convince the reader to believe in a world like that. In our world, you can either believe that conflict will forever be part of our lives or believe that one day all the fighting will stop. It is impossible to know which one is true, so we can only believe, Kishimoto here tries to use Naruto to coax people into believing the latter (and also to make money and entertain us among other things). It's no surprise which side will win at the very end, but I honestly think he doesn't believe Obito to be wrong, because he developped his thoughts and ideals too much for that. LadyDiana said: And this vicious circle like you say is what Naruto is trying to break. So I'm going to return your ealier question : what makes you think that the world Naruto is trying to create is not even better than the one Obito is offering ? And what makes Naruto's choice even better is that he doesn't want to use violence to create this new world, but Obito does. The only reason I didn't talk about Naruto was because the discussion was about Obito. I know that it is perfectly valid point. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was trying to prove Obito right, I was simply saying that nobody is in the wrong in this situation. About the violence, what exactly do you mean by that? Because I recall seeing Naruto fighting Obito for a good amount of chapters already. And if you are talking about the war, then that's just because Obito was forced to. What do you think would've happened if Obito could launch the Infinite Tsukuyomi without the Juubi, he would've launched it and dragged everyone into it without any violence. LadyDiana said: And what have the Gokage created ? Nothing yet ! What has Naruto achieved ? To this again, I answer 'nothing yet' too ! They didn't have the chance to do anything yet, because the Gokage just created the alliance, just to fight the war, but tell you they won't manage to create a better world to live in IN this reality ? We can't judge them yet. What I know is that Obito excuse to create his world AND his methods are both terrible. This is not true. The Gokage existed for a long time, they caused and fought in wars, they added to the cycle: - Oonoki is old and fought in multiple wars, he didn't try to stop them like he is doing now. At Tetsu no Kuni Gaara asked him 'when did you forsake yourself' showing that Oonoki lost sight of his past ideals. He said himself that the only reason he joined the alliance initially was out of necessity, to survive the oncomming threat instead of believing in the peace that could be attained through the alliance. It's only during his fight with Madara that he regained his will to fight and chose to believe in the alliance. - A was very easily angered by the other Kage, Sasuke and Obito. Also the way he confronted Naruto and Bee when they tried to join the battlefield shows that before, he would prefer to destroy any obstacle before him regardless of the consequences. - Tsunade, before becoming Hokage despised Konoha and the title of Hokage itself because it brought her nothing but grief. She used to be a proud Shinobi of Konoha but then abandoned it because she couldn't deal with her own demons, her hatred. It's only after she decided to believe in Naruto that it started to change. - The life Gaara had caused to believe at an early age that he needed to kill people to prove his existence, because it was only through fear that he was acknowledged. All the people he killed had (maybe) families and friends who hated and feared Gaara for what he did. He also was adding to the cycle until Naruto changed him. What I'm saying is that the Kages all had simply accepted the reality that was the cycle of hatred and added to it at some point, and it is only now that they are trying to change said reality. So you can't really say that they're better than Obito when they (with the exception of Gaara) lived far longer than he has believing the world could never be changed. And I would say that choosing to do nothing is worse that whatever Obito could possibly do. They're trying now atleast, which is good, they've realized that by doing nothing you can't change anything. LadyDiana said: About Obito imposing his dream to everybody, it has nothing to do with a friend committing suicide (you were the one telling me not to use our reality standards in the manga, right ;) ?). Nobody is in such a position. If he wants to create his world, fine, but he should do it for only people willing to live in it. And since everybody is fighting against him, it simply means that nobody wants to live in his world. What I was trying to say with that analogy is that people tend to ignore other people's will if they think they're doing the right thing (like parents making decisions for their kid). LadyDiana said: Your argument here is not valid : it is true that you can't change reality by accepting sad facts, but Obito cannot change either. And that's what I'm trying to tell you from the beginning, Obito can NOT change reality, this is why he wants to create a new one in which he'll always be right. Because he is powerless about the world he lives in, he wants to create a new one : he is cowardly trying to live in something that doesn't exist just to deny the fact that he failed to do anything good in his life. Actually, Obito is changing the reality: it's a bit like this, by dragging everybody into his world, he would be turning everything in the old world into nothing (was said many times in the manga). That in turn would make his reality, the only one, which in turn couldn't be called fake. I probably didn't explain it right, but this is only a small part of a much bigger discussion that goes along the lines of ''we don't have the right to judge something as real or fake when our perception and understanding of the world is so limited'' |
AloxamaxOct 13, 2013 7:40 PM
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
Aloxamax said: Man you make me write a lot... it's interesting though. Duuude, this isn't even my final form. Just be thankful this isn't a Hinata vs. Sakura discussion, 'cause this wouldn't even be 1/4 of what I'd make you write xD (and yeah, I know, I'm a very interesting person *self-kiss*). About the RtN world, it's like you said, but since it was created by Obito (even though imperfect) it gives an idea of what he would do in his "real fake/different" world. As you said, Naruto worked hard to create bonds with the others. I can't recall who, but I remember studying in philosophy class in high school a philosopher who said that you only exist in this world thanks to others (or "it's because others acknolegde your existence that YOU exist"), something like that... and it's totally relevant to the Naruto world... he was hated/ignored, nobody would acknoledge him and then, when he created bonds with the others, he started to "exist" (and it was his first reason for wanting to become Hokage "I want everyone to acknowledge me"). Obito, who saw one of his bonds severed against his will, wants to bring everybody in his illusion (so yeah, you can call it a fake world, since it is created with Genjutsu). Now, WOULD he be able to create a totally new world from nothing, with atoms and stuff like that to create a REAL new reality, my opinion on him would be different. But it's not the case, which is why he has to use Genjutsu. But he would also have to create new people, new animals, etc. Like God did (religious belief or not, you get what I mean). The problem with Obito is that he's not "totally into it" : he wants to use the already existing planet, the already existing people but not the already existing reality. His project is not a complete one no matter how you look at it. About the Gokage, like you said, they are now trying to change things, and each of them represents a different value that is interesting to look at : - Oonoki fought wars, made a lot of bad decisions (like his pact with Akatsuki IIRC), and with him, Kishimoto is showing the image of the "old-school" ruler who is still able to change and be the fighter against injustice he was when he was younger - A is the strong-head commander, more or less pro-violence, who has to learn to make compromise to protect what is dear to him and collaborate with others when he was the "solo" type of person - Gaara is the one who experienced pain and was violent in the early stages of his life and who learnt from that in order never to repeat it (and is useful for the contrast young/old with Oonoki -> which proves that both new and old school can collaborate) - Tsunade is a veteran of war who experienced the pain it causes and even though she's stong-headed like A, she has to put her usual methods to work with everybody - Mei is the most "normal" of them, because she already learnt of the mistakes of the previous Mizukage and she's more open than them all to change and compromise So now that they all changed, I think they can do what the previous Gokages couldn't. When I said "the Gokages didn't exist", I meant "the alliance and friendship between them". This is the first time they do things like this, the alliance didn't exist before the war, so we'll see what they can achive after it. And then only, we'll see if they were right to fight Obito's ideals. So yeah, if Obito maaayyybe did something good in the manga, it would be, as you said, making the Gokages realize that they have to change things by themselves. Aloxamax said: What I was trying to say with that analogy is that people tend to ignore other people's will if they think they're doing the right thing (like parents making decisions for their kid). ^Exactly, Obito thinks he's doing right, ignoring the will of others. But no, his plan isn't a good one to me. Aloxamax said: Actually, Obito is changing the reality: it's a bit like this, by dragging everybody into his world, he would be turning everything in the old world into nothing (was said many times in the manga). That in turn would make his reality, the only one, which in turn couldn't be called fake. I get what you mean here, but as I said above, he's trying to create a new world with already existing people who already have their own experiences of life. You can't create a new reality with elements of the past in it, it's contradictory. The best he can do is hypnotizing them (so they forget everything about their past life), give them new memories and making them think that everything that they lost in the "real" world (but they won't remember losing those things) will still be there in his world (like dead people). But he can't bring them back from death unlike Nagato. Believe me, if Obito/Madara had the power of Nagato, he wouldn't both be doing all this shit, they'd revive Rin/the dead brothers, and that's it. They wouldn't give a sh*t about the shinobi world being corrupt or not. So yeah, I remain on my position : Obito is a bad villain. AND he'll be even worse if he gets talked no jutsu by Naruto and become good (it'll mean that his convinction wasn't even that strong). But the reason why I think Obito (and Madara, to a certain extent) is a bad villain is because we had badass villain at the "beginning" of the manga like Orochimaru (the ultimate awesome villain to me) or even Hidan. So in comparison, Obito is really pitiful. Now, if he were the only villain of Naruto, if I couldn't compare him with Orochimaru, maaaayybe I'd consider Obito good, but to me, he's just an insult to a real bad guy like him. Edit : they're must be a lot of typos, but I'm in a hurry right now, so no time to check ^^'. |
LadyDiana said: Duuude, this isn't even my final form. Just be thankful this isn't a Hinata vs. Sakura discussion, 'cause this wouldn't even be 1/4 of what I'd make you write xD (and yeah, I know, I'm a very interesting person *self-kiss*). Oh, believe me, I've been there! I used to favor one of those two (not telling you which one) and got into discussions about them, but I then realized every female character Naruto's age is worthless so I stopped worrying about them. Except for Temari, Temari's good. And I didn't say you were interesting, I was saying the fact that you mande me write this much in a Naruto thread was interesting, I don't tend to spend so much time discussing something like that. While I did write a lot, it isn't even between my top 50 posts, I save my 100 longests post (of any forums) and my previous one is the #89. My #1 is over 60k words, it was made on a Pokemon forum. I somehow did not hit a word limit. LadyDiana said: But no, his plan isn't a good one to me. Good enough. Honestly, the whole purpose of this discussion was to make sure that we disagreed based on our tastes instead of disagreeing because one of us had their facts wrong. LadyDiana said: like Orochimaru (the ultimate awesome villain to me) Orochimaru isn't a bad guy... he's just misunderstood. Right? |
AloxamaxOct 15, 2013 8:55 AM
"Rejoice! We are humans— we are the most talented people! Precisely because we were born without any ability— we can achieve anything— this is the will of the weakest race!" – Sora, ‘No game No life Vol.01’ |
| narutos willpower #2stronk |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| This is the fucking flag for fucking talk no jutsu. Is there any logic left in this show? I want to combine jutsu because I want to, not with my own chakra, but with another person's. What the flying hell? From the moment Naruto combined his technique with Minato, I was just.. speechless. link9us said: ranzero said: WHAT IN THE ILLITERATE FUCK KISHI ???????? the pacing just got slower and slower *yawn* just fight and stop the nakama bullshit speech please !!! Everyone's expectations for this chapter were just way to high What? Expectation for Naruto? What? I might have heard it wrong. Pretty much every expectation died for the last 100 chapters. |
ToG25thBaamJan 23, 2014 10:11 PM
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| I'm almost hoping Obito wins at this point. |
 ☩ Discord: the.path.to.pathos ☩ RateYourMusic ☩ last.fm |
| Naruto will never give up. |
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| Yay. The naruto and sasuke team up is looking real cool. |
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