| Everyone has different opinions on things, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't get angry over what is or is not on the list. If you have a problem with something then feel free to present it in a more constructive matter, rather than "Well this series I love isn't here so why is this other one here?!" I DO listen to what my members say and have added and removed things based on what has been discussed in the club, but the discussions were always very civil, which made me far more inclined to listen. Madoka isn't going on the list because it has some issues in it that are sexist, and not enough empowerment to overcome that. There is also far too much gray area in it- There are a lot of things that, by some, are taken as empowering, but can also be seen as very sexist. It's just too controversial to add. Not everyone is going to be of the same opinion, so please try to respect that. We aren't the people you talked to on tumblr, so please don't take your aggression and anger towards other people out on us. Thank you. |
AmberlehFeb 21, 2014 5:40 AM
Emmrys said: Count my vote for Kimi ni Todoke. More reasons why it should be added: -Female friendships: Shoujo anime/manga kind of really sucks when it comes to female friendships, especially in comparison to shounen which his like ALL ABOUT [usually male-male] friendship. But Kimi ni Todoke portrays Chizu's, Ayane's, and Sawako's friendship really well--they support each other through each of their conflicts, and even the love rival is fleshed out which is also great; too often in shoujo anime/manga are the female love rivals villified right off the bat, and that is really their only characterization. Especially when compared to male love rivals in love triangles, who are almost always portrayed to be sympathetic characters. Also Chizu-chan and Yano-chan are both noteworthy characters as Amber already stated. I agree with this, I think KnT is one of the very very few shoujo that's actually decent hen it comes female portrayals. I was actually really (pleasantly) surprised to see them placing any sort of focus on this friendship (goes to show my expectation of shoujo, sadly) and actually made an effort to develop it. That was my favourite part of the show. SailorTitan said: Like FMA: Brotherhood? "Feminist-friendly", sure, but hardly something that should be celebrated as a paragon of feminism in anime! Most of the female characters are satellites to their male love interests. I keep seeing it get pushed as "feminist" on Tumblr and places like that, and it's really frustrating. It's certainly not BAD at that stuff, but calling it "feminist" is setting an incredibly low bar, one that I, as a feminist media critic, would rather be at least a LITTLE higher. Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you seem so skeptical about FMA's feminism. Personally, I've yet to see an anime which has such good portrayal of women. As you can probably tell, I'm a fan. On the other hand, I rarely become a fan of anime that are sexist, so you could say that part of the reason I loved FMA so much is because of its female characters. FMA, both versions, is one of very anime which actually treat male and female characters like theyr both human. While it's not completely devoid of typical anime tropes (which affect both genders in he anime) it greatly succeeds in defining the characters beyond that. It often very hard to come across so many female characters with diverse characterisations. I've read most of the stuff in that link (it was too long plus I seemed to be somewhat out of the loop) and while I can appreciate where the writer is coming from, I also think some points are looked at from only one perspective, or by analysing only one aspect. One thing of note is that while FMA doesn't have any female main characters - strictly speaking, only Ed and Al are the protagonists - it's probably more because it a shounen manga and anime. But unlike most, it actually has very good female representation. So while I didn't actually notice that it was on the list, I now think it should be anyway (more so than Attack on Titan, which I have some issues with regarding female characters). In fact, I think the original Fullmetal Alchemist should be added as well, not only because Brotherhood has been, but also because I think it has some strong female characterisation theres, some that even surpasses Brotherhood (eg. the homunculi). I'd like to also suggest these for the list: Wolf Children (movie) - I think the story of a single mother is portrayed there in a very powerful manner using fantastical elements. Also develops a great mother-daughter relationship. Whisper of the Heart (Ghibli movie) - an excellent coming-of-age story with a protagonist not unlike Kiki, but with a more realistic setting and no magic. the girl, Shizuka, is just as relatable as she is inspiring, and while there's a romantic aspect it only serves to develop her character further, rather than stunt it. Hanasaku Iroha (series) - this show has a variety of female characters, including the protagonist, who gets very good development. one of the best point of the entire show is the family dynamics of the grandmother/mother/daughter. another is the friendship and camaraderie between the young girls depicted in the show. it's especially refreshing to see how much those 2 factors take precedence over the romantic attachments the female characters may have with the male characters. also, women of all ages and interests are portrayed in an admirable way, without confining them to stereotypes. Canaan (series) - the very first thing that struck me about this show was the fact it consists almost entirely of a female cast! it took me almost the entire series to get used to (which is really sad) because it's so unexpected. this is definitely the strongest aspect of the show, and it also doesn't feel the need to belittle or stamp on (which can be quite literal in anime) the male characters in order make the females 'feisty' and 'strong' (an eternal thorn in my side, since it actually undermines the females). That was kind of long. Anyway, I'm more than happy to further discuss this with anyone who wants to, and would greatly appreciate if these were considered for the list. |
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| Wolf Children is actually sexist due to the ending, sadly. That really, really bothered me, so it's not gonna get added to the list. It was discussed earlier in the thread. Hanasaku Iroha was on the list and I took it off because I was skeptical, but I haven't actually seen it so I guess that isn't fair. I'll ask Meta and Emmy about it. I wasn't entirely sure about Whisper of the Heart because I thought the romance was a little silly, but it IS Miyazaki so I'll go ahead and add it. Canaan I wasn't sure about because it's type moon and I wasn't sure if some of it was just fanservice, but I think I can see it being on the list so I'll ask some others. I'll go ahead and add original FMA. Thanks for your input! |
Amberleh said: Hanasaku Iroha was on the list and I took it off because I was skeptical, but I haven't actually seen it so I guess that isn't fair. I'll ask Meta and Emmy about it. Meta was rather bored by Hanasaku Iroha most of the time. I guess it just wasn't my cup of tea, as I already mentioned before. However, it's true that the anime had a relatively strong cast of female characters and it did quite a good job with developing the MC. It's been a while since I watched it and since I didn't find it memorable (especially since I it was dragging in the second half), my memory's fading away, so don't expect much from me when it comes to discussing its merits and demerits in details. Teenage dramas are something I find harder and harder to appreciate or care for, but I can't deny the anime was mostly competent. I'm neither for nor against adding it to the list. I just don't care much, so do what you see fit. |
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| I think I was the one that added it(?) , and I think it was primarily for Ohana and the rest of the female cast. The entire cast is mostly all female, and all of them can either be categorized as strong, positive, or both. Ohana starts of strong and independent from having to take care of herself (in the absence of a dependable parent), but after her grandmother puts her to work she undergoes some great character development from dealing with new responsibilities to handling making new friends. Her two friends each have good development, too. Also notable: The two major and rival inns are both ran by capable women, and there was one episode where one girl at the inn was supposed supposed to marry some guy from back home in an arranged marriage, but she decided to stay at the inn despite her parent's wishes because her work was more important to her. There's other reasons and notable instances, too, but I'd have to rewatch it. |
Amberleh said: Could you please remind me? I've watched that movie just once and really liked it, but it was something to do with her son wasn't it?Wolf Children is actually sexist due to the ending, sadly. That really, really bothered me, so it's not gonna get added to the list. It was discussed earlier in the thread. Amberleh said: Since Emmrys approves of it, and you haven't seen it, I strongly suggest you consider it (and watch it!)Hanasaku Iroha was on the list and I took it off because I was skeptical, but I haven't actually seen it so I guess that isn't fair. I'll ask Meta and Emmy about it. Amberleh said: I think it's more important to consider her character than how you perceive the romance (in general I don't find Ghibli romance particularly enjoyable anyway), since it doesn't hinder her character development or the story. It's not Miyazaki directed though.I wasn't entirely sure about Whisper of the Heart because I thought the romance was a little silly, but it IS Miyazaki so I'll go ahead and add it. Amberleh said: I don't remember it having any fanservice, actually. Which surprised me because I thought they would revel at the chance to utilise that sort of trope.Canaan I wasn't sure about because it's type moon and I wasn't sure if some of it was just fanservice, but I think I can see it being on the list so I'll ask some others. |
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Amberleh said: kawaiipapa said: Also for anime relations, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time and Wolf Children Ame and Yuki? They're both Hosoda Mamoru films. I feel like if you've watched either of them, they're kind of self-explanatory. Makoto in The Girl Who Leapt Through Time is pretty much the main focus and you see her grow in character as she realizes the consequences of her actions and embarks on a very unique journey. Wolf Children depicts a single mother who does her best to raise two wolf children and one of the protagonists, Yuki, is a young girl who grows up to learn about her own nature, her family, and her relationship with her friends. I think it does a wonderful job of celebrating motherhood and a mother's ability to love and appreciate her children no matter what they choose to be. Yeaaaaahhh actually... Wolf children I uh, I loved but I had a problem with. I gave it 9/10 instead of 10/10 because it became sexist at the end. It STARTED OUT empowering, but took a huge nosedive at the end. I think a couple of my officers share the same sentiments about it as myself. Yuki began as a really strong little girl, and Ame started out as scared. Suddenly, 2/3 of the way through their roles switched. Ame became this alpha male and Yuki turned into a typical little girl who just wanted to be liked and loved and have friends. She stopped being strong and they implied she was just going to repeat what happened to her mother- Which was fine, if her mother was the only character in the movie like that. The fact that they imply that both women have to fulfill this motherly role because they are women is very, very sexist. Oh, did I mention how they thought it would be super 'manly' to show Ame just turn away from his mother at the end instead of embracing her and talking to her? Yeah no. I think it was sexist towards men too, saying that he wasn't a real man unless he became this alpha male. I get why you would think it's empowering, and it STARTS OUT empowering but the ending just took a huge jump into the sexism territory. Girl Who Leapt Through Time I enjoyed but I can't say it's really empowering. She's just kind of a typical high school girl who then cries because her love is leaving her. Rarity said: I agree with Wolf Children. Both the female characters had to make huge sacrifices and change themselves in order to cope with what was thrown at them (Hana= sacrificing her education/career prospects for her children and Yuki =having to act more feminine in order to fit in with other girls) while Ame, who made the most selfish decision in the movie, was hailed for it. Jeez, I have so many issues with that ending. I don't view Yuki as weak for embracing her humanity, and I'm sure that any mother would have done the same as Hana did for her children. The problem is with how the narrative contrasts the girls with Ame. I think I would have the same problem if Yuki and Ame's roles were switched too, I absolutely hated how he just turned his back on his mother who had sacrificed absolutely EVERYTHING for his and his sister's sake, and how hard she had worked for everything the family had. It was just so... ugh. Just gonna quote the discussion on Wolf Children. |
| I just remembered a few more for consideration: Taisho Baseball Girls - a series about some young girls in 20's Japan trying to (*gasp*) play the men's sport and starting a team. not only is it an excellent sports anime, but it's incredibly inspirational to see how these girls go about forming their baseball team while wearing kimonos and challenging boys teams. variety of great female characters. Kokoro Connect - I haven't yet seen this series mentioned, but it has 3 girls and 2 boys and can considered a bit of a teen psychological drama. the 3 girls are very interesting and different to each other but are good friends - a relationship that is delved into and developed a great deal. Sora no Woto - the premise of this series is slightly strange and sci-fi, but the cast is entire female (except maybe 2 minor male characters) and is diverse. they have engaging characteristics and backstories, and the show explores the friendship between these girls. Ouran HSHC - I'm fairly certain this must have been mentioned before, popular as it is. although it's reverse harem, it goes beyond the typical definition of a bunch of boys fawning over a pointless excuse of a female character. Haruhi is, I think, an empowering symbol for young girls and subverts a lot of female stereotypes that constantly emerges in shoujo genre. |
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| I'm actually watching Taishou Baseball Girls at the moment specifically to determine if it's worthy of being on the list. I'm not very far in but I'm really enjoying it so far. Even if it is a bit moe-moe it's a really interesting and unique anime and I love how sexism plays a huge role in the anime and that they started their team as a 'fuck you' to sexist attitudes at the time. I have to finish it first, but when I do I will definitely advocate giving it the tick of approval. Can't speak for Kokoro Connect because I haven't seen it. Sora no Woto is one of my favourite things ever but I'm kinda on the fence of if it belongs or not. It focuses on an all-female military unit, which is awesome, but the character's personalities are again, moe-moe and kinda shallow (some more than others, Kanata especially as the clumsy genki everygirl). I do really love the show though and there's a lot of good in it, so if others speak up in favour of adding it I would be more than happy to do so. I think Amber is the resident Ouran fangirl and probably the best person to speak to about it, I personally didn't really care for it. Haruhi is a great character though, she isn't your typical shoujo protagonist and you could even make a pretty strong argument for her being canonically genderqueer (?) which is pretty much unheard of in anime (hell, in western works too.) I wouldn't mind adding her to the character relations. |
| I do love Ouran quite a bit, one of my favorite manga/anime ever, but I purposely did NOT add it to the list. There were a couple of scenes where we were reminded that "Haruhi is still a girl", very forcefully so. The beach episode is the one I'm thinking of in particular, when she's on the cliff trying to save two other girls and Tamaki says "You're still a girl you can't do that!" And she gets mad, so Kyouya pins her to the bed and says "See you're still a girl and guys can take advantage of you". I'm not gonna add it to the sexist list either, but I didn't think it made a strong enough statement in the empowering department to be considered feminist. Plenty of other girls in the series were still treated like normal anime females. I didn't feel like Haruhi was trying to make a statement in terms of female roles in anime, but rather act as an amusing parody of reverse harem and genderbend females. It's a good parody of reverse harems and a really great series that I absolutely love, but honestly I just don't think it qualifies for our list. Sora no Woto I have not seen but it definitely has that moe seinen vibe to me, and I'm really against adding anything like that to the list. I would never add K-on or Lucky Star or Aria, for example. It's hard to explain, but moe seinen are a kind of fan service, and it's a kind of fan service that REALLY irks me. It seems innocent and fluffy, but in a way it's still objectification. I'm not gonna add those series to the sexist list, but I'm sure as hell gonna keep em away from the feminist list. They are no using girls as the characters to make a statement- They are using girls because they know that's what people want to see and because they believe people can become more emotionally attatched to females and they're 'cute'. Sorry, I just have a LOT of problems with that moe slice of life seinen stuff. I also want to reinforce that having an all female cast really doesn't mean it's feminist either. It may seem like it because there aren't men there to degrade the women in any way, but in some ways that's just a cop-out. |
AmberlehFeb 23, 2014 3:08 AM
Amberleh said: I know what you mean, and to be honest that particular episode - although I do enjoy it - kind of puts a damper on my liking for the show. I still think Haruhi is a better protagonist for the female demographic who likes shoujo, but I understand you point.There were a couple of scenes where we were reminded that "Haruhi is still a girl", very forcefully so. The beach episode is the one I'm thinking of in particular, when she's on the cliff trying to save two other girls and Tamaki says "You're still a girl you can't do that!" And she gets mad, so Kyouya pins her to the bed and says "See you're still a girl and guys can take advantage of you". I'm not gonna add it to the sexist list either, but I didn't think it made a strong enough statement in the empowering department to be considered feminist. Plenty of other girls in the series were still treated like normal anime females. I didn't feel like Haruhi was trying to make a statement in terms of female roles in anime, but rather act as an amusing parody of reverse harem and genderbend females. Amberleh said: Everything you said agrees with my view - except Sora no Woto is not the kind of moe stuff you're thinking of. I can't stand them either and have actually avoided watching it for a long time. I'd actually suggest you read the review on its MAL page by Archaeon, which explains very articulately (without spoiling) why its so much more than its face value.Sora no Woto I have not seen but it definitely has that moe seinen vibe to me, and I'm really against adding anything like that to the list. I would never add K-on or Lucky Star or Aria, for example. It's hard to explain, but moe seinen are a kind of fan service, and it's a kind of fan service that REALLY irks me. It seems innocent and fluffy, but in a way it's still objectification. I'm not gonna add those series to the sexist list, but I'm sure as hell gonna keep em away from the feminist list. They are no using girls as the characters to make a statement- They are using girls because they know that's what people want to see and because they believe people can become more emotionally attatched to females and they're 'cute'. Sorry, I just have a LOT of problems with that moe slice of life seinen stuff. I also want to reinforce that having an all female cast really doesn't mean it's feminist either. It may seem like it because there aren't men there to degrade the women in any way, but in some ways that's just a cop-out. |
fullmetalbenderFeb 23, 2014 3:20 AM
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| Concerning Ouran- I liked Haruhi the first time I watched the series, but the second time left me with a very different impression... instead of adorable and likable, I thought she was really just dull and sometimes annoying. She's different from other heroines in the fact that she's independent, smart (yet of course dense w/ anything romance-related), and uninterested in romance, but she's so apathetic to everything to point where things are happening and she's just takes things in stride and goes with the flow because she's so apathetic. I think Haruhi inspired many heroines like her who came after her, like Shizuku for example (Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun), but they're all the same--or worse, they'll only start to develop once they start becoming romantically interested in the love interest --like Shizuku for example. I'll find myself caring much more about a heroine who's actually emotionally invested and actively interested in her surroundings, and I personally think that those are better role models--especially if they can still be independent and smart. |
| Yes, hello, it's me again. I kind of really like this thread and think it's a good place offer and receive recommendations, so I'm back here to suggest: Humanity Has Declined - a unique anime with a unique main character. the premise and 'story' really brings out her brilliant oddness. she's her own person, quite an independent, clever, and cynical girl (in a sly and cynical way) with great sense of (dark) humour. it's kind of difficult to describe her or the anime, but I highly recommend watching it and judging for yourself. (actually she reminds of Kino a tiny bit) |
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| Nope to Humanity Has Declined. It's not that it's sexist, but there's nothing empowering about it. When suggesting things please try to think about whether or not it tries to tackle gender roles in any way, shape, or form. Just having females that aren't treated like crud or that have some personality doesn't mean it belongs on our list. Our list isn't just "stuff that isn't sexist'- It's specifically stuff that, in some way shape or form, breaks out of the mold in regards to gender norms or has particularly empowering characters. Humanity Has Declined has absolutely nothing empowering about it. Again, it's certainly not sexist, and Watashi is a fun character, but she and her series don't belong on our list. Again, our list isn't 'safe stuff', our list is stuff that is EMPOWERING. Oban Star Racers, Utena, Saiunkoku Monogatari are some of the absolute best examples of this. Compare anything you're thinking of suggesting to them first- Obviously not everything is going to be quite as groundbreaking in regards to gender roles as these ones or some of our other series/movies, but these are a good place to start for comparisons. |
AmberlehFeb 23, 2014 6:06 AM
Amberleh said: When suggesting things please try to think about whether or not it tries to tackle gender roles in any way, shape, or form. Just having females that aren't treated like crud or that have some personality doesn't mean it belongs on our list. Our list isn't just "stuff that isn't sexist'- It's specifically stuff that, in some way shape or form, breaks out of the mold in regards to gender norms or has particularly empowering characters. Humanity Has Declined has absolutely nothing empowering about it. Again, it's certainly not sexist, and Watashi is a fun character, but she and her series don't belong on our list. Well, in that case, my views would differ a little concerning what makes an empowering female character. But I suppose I can see why you'd want stuff that's more obviously so. |
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| I don't know if this has been discussed , but has anyone read Dengeki daisy ?I'm kind of skeptic I do think that it is somewhat sexist at times (like most anime/manga)but it has some empowering aspects about it .. What do you guys think ? |
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| A friend of mine has mentioned Dengeki Daisy and said I'd like it because it's really feminist, but I have not read it yet. I usually trust her recs for that stuff, but her favorite series IS Elfen Lied, so part of me is wary. Hahahahaha. |
| I read Dengeki Daisy, but I'm not sure I would class it as feminist. Then again, I only read through vol. 6, and my memory's fuzzy. What did you think was empowering? |
| Yeah, well that was probably wrong word usage . They are not necessarily empowering- more like non stereotypical .First of Teru is not your usual super feminine body ,d-cup goddess of tsundere (I don't mind them , just saying ) lead . She is smart ( first in her class/plus she actually guesses who "daisy" is from the begging) , resolute and even though -especially in the first volumes-she is defenseless she learns to have a cool head and deal with stuff herself (physically & mentally ) .Also Riko , another female character is smart and good with computers while being ladylike. Another thing that is usually not portrayed correctly in anime is friendship between girls (e.x female lead cares for male lead and dumps friends )which is not the case in this manga . I don't actually know how to explain this but I find that it is sexist and feminist at the same time :p Anyways, if you guys ever stumble upon it I'd be glad to hear other opinions. Amberleh said: Thank god I am not the only one who finds elfen lied bad , I like you even more adminher favorite series IS Elfen Lied, so part of me is wary. Hahahahaha. |
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| I have never been able to get over how creeped out I was by the scenes in which an infantile character's breasts are fondled in the bath, for laughs. As manipulative as Elfen Lied is, I thought it had some potential, but I had a huge problem with those scenes, and I also felt irritated that nobody else seemed to mind them. |
Aileenam said: Yeah, well that was probably wrong word usage . They are not necessarily empowering- more like non stereotypical .First of Teru is not your usual super feminine body ,d-cup goddess of tsundere (I don't mind them , just saying ) lead . She is smart ( first in her class/plus she actually guesses who "daisy" is from the begging) , resolute and even though -especially in the first volumes-she is defenseless she learns to have a cool head and deal with stuff herself (physically & mentally ) .Also Riko , another female character is smart and good with computers while being ladylike. Another thing that is usually not portrayed correctly in anime is friendship between girls (e.x female lead cares for male lead and dumps friends )which is not the case in this manga . I don't actually know how to explain this but I find that it is sexist and feminist at the same time :p Anyways, if you guys ever stumble upon it I'd be glad to hear other opinions. I haven't finished Dengeki Daisy, but I think she explained it well. I'd rather say Teru is appropriate for the list, but maybe manga itself is not. I mean, Teru is strong both physically and emotionally. She is high school girl who lives alone (is an orphan), yet she manages to be the top student, is very intelligent, often gives good advices to her friends, is very positive. And I think she's the great role model for young girls who read shoujo mangas (definitely way, waaayy better than most weak and naive shoujo heroines out there). She is tiny, yet she is capable to hit and kick good. But sometimes, she is just a bit (but just a bit) overshadowed by Daisy - the main guy who is btw much older than her (she is 16, he is 24). So it's kinda logical for him to be more capable than her for some things. But still, Teru is probably one of the strongest girls (in both mentioned ways) I've ever seen, including both anime and manga (I rarely read manga xD). I'd say she is similar to Misaki Ayuzawa and Daisy is similar to Usui Takumi (Kaichou wa Maid-sama). Actually, the only difference between Teru and Misaki is that Teru's not tsundere. So I hope you can now understand what I wanted to say when I said that Teru belongs to the list (like 100%), but manga itself is questionable. |
| Alright thanks for the input guys! I'll throw Teru on the list then. =) As for Elfen Lied- That's probably what upsets me most about it, Sarco- It DID have potential. It had a LOT of potential, an inhuman amount of it- It really could have been a legitimately fantastic series. Unfortunately, the 'artist' (I hesitate to call him that because man if you've ever picked up the manga... Oh God. That art.) chose to go with cheap tactics and moe desu desu art and a pointless harem. Edit: So I added Teru and Kimi ni Todoke to the list. =) |
AmberlehFeb 25, 2014 4:19 PM
| I'd have to agree that part of me not enjoying Elfen Lied was the art style. It's just so unbefitting for the violence it portrays. The series definitely rode more on the shock factor than anything else. And the cousin incest was weird, but I guess in Japan it's not so strange haha. |
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Aileenam said: Amberleh said: Thank god I am not the only one who finds elfen lied bad , I like you even more adminher favorite series IS Elfen Lied, so part of me is wary. Hahahahaha. Far from it. There is a lot of people who find it bad. Even on MAL. |
| I think that in Japan, marriage between cousins is still not considered to be incest. While that does look like a fetish, I don't actually believe it is in the context of anime. It doesn't excuse for Elfen Lied's main leads for being such bad characters, though. Especially Yuka. I'm not sure how I feel about the art style; some other shows that used an art style you wouldn't expect of such a dark tone did work, like Now and Then Here and There, because it was used to give the viewer a false impression (and also help establish that it was ultimately from a child's viewpoint and that what he said would win out). On the other hand, I'm not sure if Elfen Lied needed this aesthetic, and it did sometimes feel inappropriate to me, in addition to being kind of clunky. Same goes for Higurashi, which I did actually enjoy (to some extent) but whose art style, in addition to being terribly-drawn, was quite inappropriate indeed. I gave this a 6 on MAL when I watched it three years ago, which in retrospect might be generous. I didn't find it boring and I thought it started to improve near the end, copout conclusion aside, but it was one of the first full series I watched and now that I've had more to compare it to I feel that it isn't well-written at all and seriously needed a better cast. And can the lolicon (though I always felt that). |
SarcotarascusNSame goes for [b said: Higurashi, which I did actually enjoy (to some extent) but whose art style, in addition to being terribly-drawn, was quite inappropriate indeed. Agreed they should have gone with the VN style. http://imgur.com/aGqlJ8c Or not. The first animes design was terrible. But I don't mind the VN or the later seasons. Or should I say I don't find it inappropriate. I'm not a fan of the so called moe style in any anime. and Elfen Lied is also completely appropriate because it's just a harem in the end. I don't get everyone's issues with incest. If both are adults I don't care. And cousin is a better choice than psycho mutant killer. |
| I hate all those horror+moe-desu-art anime, and no I do not count Now and Then, Here and There as being among those types. But in regards to the issues with incest- There are a lot, proven by both science and research. It's not just a matter of 'cultural differences'. If two partners of blood relation have a child, that child is far more likely to inherent some kind of mental or physical disability. Remember what a problem inbreeding was among royals? In regards to the social problems, regardless of whether or not they are blood related, were two close siblings or cousins to be in a relationship it would skew their outlook on what normal relationships are, and it would normalize it in the eyes of their children, which just perpetuates the problem. I'm no expert on the subject, but there are books and studies and all that done on the issues with incest. It's not just a case of "Well society has decided it's wrong so it's wrong but is it REALLY wrong?" In this case there is enough evidence to prove that there are issues with it. As far as Elfen Lied goes, they were both bad choices for obvious reasons. |
Amberleh said: Yep, same here. I dunno about Elfen Lied since I was forced to drop it from its awfulness, but I do see the anime community having a sort of unhealthy interest in incest. Sometimes it can be integrated into the story and that, while still unappealing to me, may be okay, but what I find more common is the 'fetishisation' of such an unhealthy practice.I'm no expert on the subject, but there are books and studies and all that done on the issues with incest. It's not just a case of "Well society has decided it's wrong so it's wrong but is it REALLY wrong?" In this case there is enough evidence to prove that there are issues with it. |
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| I think that Elfen Lied has a lot of issues with fetishization (like I mentioned earlier with the lolicon), but while I don't think the relationship between the leads is healthy by any means, I'm not sure it really constitutes a fetish from the Japanese viewpoint. The question of whether it's still morally questionable or not remains, but I don't think it was thrown in there to appeal to fetishists. Now, what is certainly a fetish is when the little sister of a male lead turns out to be their cousin (or not actually related) just so that she can fall in love with the male lead. That's unquestionably a fetish, as is anything involving siblings. I agree about the interest in incest in anime circles being creepy, and it's a bad sign that at least one show about this comes out each season (some of the stuff airing now actually makes Oreimo look good, and the fact that I'm saying this is scary). |
| Guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. |
| Yeah, the sister-loves-big-bro thing comes from a fetishistic place, but most of the time, it's a soapy plot twist added for shock value à la The Borgias, so I wouldn't get worried about the Japanese. I can't speak for the anime community though. Is it a big thing? |
| It's big enough for stuff like Recently, My Little Sister is Unusual to get made. And for it to be in mainstream stuff like Sword Art Online. The first anime forum I ever spent any time with was full of dudes who were into this kind of stuff. I'm not sure how representative that is (I don't go there anymore and avoid most fora), but there are otaku over here who are really into it. The one time I ever bothered commenting on a crunchyroll episode, I was saying "Oh lovely, end this miserable show with an incest episode" and people were VERY quick to jump in and say: "Isnt it not incest because their actually cousins" "its not" "no ur wrong" So yeah, there are dudes who are into this shit. |
| It's ALWAYS dudes without sisters too, or if they DO have sisters they are estranged from them or didn't grow up with them. I certainly feel your pain though Sarco. You and I seem to have very similar views and experiences so I am pleased to have you here. =) |
Amberleh said: It's ALWAYS dudes without sisters too, or if they DO have sisters they are estranged from them or didn't grow up with them. Yeah, imagine my surprise when, as newbies, my brother and I picked up Angel Sanctuary way back when. From the library, of all places! We had no idea what it was. I think we had identical expressions of horror when we realized... |
new_user said: Amberleh said: It's ALWAYS dudes without sisters too, or if they DO have sisters they are estranged from them or didn't grow up with them. Yeah, imagine my surprise when, as newbies, my brother and I picked up Angel Sanctuary way back when. From the library, of all places! We had no idea what it was. I think we had identical expressions of horror when we realized... AHAHAHAHAHA oh, oh god, that's perfect. Ahahaha. I'm sorry, I shouldn't be laughing at your pain but that is hysterical. I actually didn't think Angel Sanctuary was that bad in terms of the incest, but I never did finish it. At the point I got it seemed like they were saying "No it's really not okaaay" |
| I just want to point out that while sibling incest does lead to a very high rate of birth defects, sexual relationships between cousins are not remotely comparable in that respect. There's a slight increase in chance of defects at best. That's why the taboo on cousins getting married is a fairly recent development historically speaking, while the siblings getting married taboo has been around for pretty much forever. I find incest pretty gross, and the fixation on incest in the anime fandom to be weird and troubling, but to play devil's advocate: in cases of incest between consenting siblings who are close in age, who practice safe sex and have no intention of having children, what's the problem? How about same-sex siblings who can't have children? If this line of questioning makes anyone uncomfortable we can drop it. I just think it's a little hasty to say "siblings shouldn't have sex because they'll have messed up babies," since sex =/= babies. |
| The worst part is that if there is a little sister, she will almost always love the protagonist as well. Note that it's a little sister too. It makes me feel disgusted because I have an older brother so I totally have to love him in the most incestuous of ways, right? Haha... no. |
janse112 said: in cases of incest between consenting siblings who are close in age, who practice safe sex and have no intention of having children, what's the problem? How about same-sex siblings who can't have children? If this line of questioning makes anyone uncomfortable we can drop it. I just think it's a little hasty to say "siblings shouldn't have sex because they'll have messed up babies," since sex =/= babies. I didn't want to argue about it but you wrote down everything I thought. I'm not defending the weird fetishy shit going on in animu either. |
EarwenMar 1, 2014 12:04 PM
| Thanks Amber. |
| Haha wow I didn't notice this discussion going off into the topic of incest. I'd have to agree with Aines. I have an older brother and to think that.....no, that makes me cringe. I feel like maybe a lot of the people who are into brother-sister "romances" are as Amber said, guys who don't have a sister or grew up not really interacting with them much. Therefore, their image of having a cute little imouto or even older sister is very skewed and fantasized. As much as I don't approve of incest, I don't want to label things as "normal" or "abnormal" because if we do look at the history of humankind, incest was a thing. And though the majority of the world does not practice it, I can't be the one to point fingers at people and be like "You're wrong and depraved and therefore not normal." People have their preferences, and I can't do anything about it. I don't approve of it, but if it's a focus of a story and is well written and well explored and "justified," I honestly don't have a problem with that. It's just that I think Elfen Lied and SAO just do a pretty shitty job of not explaining well why these two family members happen to have a thing for their brother or cousin, among other things in which they do a pretty shitty job of. Now I feel like I just dug up something that should have been left buried in the ground. |
|
| Perhaps it's my calling to guide you all back on topic ^‿^ With another list candidate: Steins;Gate - I imagine most of you might have watched this already, since it's quite popular and well rated. I suggest it because all the female characters in the show are considerably independent and are well established characters. The male/female ratio in the cast is, in fact, in favour of the females. However, instead of turning this factor into anime's favourite harem trope, it works to develop each of them into unique characters who become integral parts of the story. Makise Kurisu, especially, is one of the best female characters I've seen in anime, and pretty much the only one who successfully (and in style) subverts the typical 'tsundere' label. So I'm also putting her up for consideration for the characters list. |
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| I have to say no to Steins Gate. I enjoyed it more than I thought I would, but even Makise's character suffers when she 'falls in love' and turns into a kind of trope. But I'm willing to listen to other opinions. |
Amberleh said: You think she falls into a 'trope'? Willing to elaborate?but even Makise's character suffers when she 'falls in love' and turns into a kind of trope. But I'm willing to listen to other opinions. |
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| As I recall she just becomes kind of tsundere-y, but even outside of that I really don't see her as being exceptionally empowering. I'll let others elaborate. I'm tired and have a lot of stuff to do. |
| Kurisu definitely came across as tsundere-y (as Amber puts it) to me as well. Though a more tolerable tsundere-y character than most. I don't really care enough to argue against her being added, but I didn't see her as anything special, really. |
|
| Lol, Amberleh, go ahead laugh at my pain. *sniff* ;) fullmetalbender, you have my hearty thanks for changing the subject. |
| First of all, I should point out that a character being 'tsundere' or any other 'label type' doesn't automatically make them bad, or in this case, feminist/anti-feminist. It just means they fit into to a certain character trope. But the thing with Makise is, as I mentioned above, that she actually breaks out of the label and doesn't let it define her entire character - unlike countless (most, in fact) female characters of the -dere labels. She was more tsundere-like in the beginning of the show rather than in the second half (so I wouldn't say she becomes a tsundere later), which just shows how anyone can come across snobby or stand-offish with a reputation and accomplishments like her. But once she get comfortable with others and finds an interest - as she does with the lab members and the time machine project - she goes beyond that very limited 'tsundere personality' and becomes more emotionally engaged with the other characters, forming different types of relationships with each of them like a real human being. Almost none of her actions or reactions can be seen as unreasonable, unlike the typical tsundere, as they are realistic, practical and perceptive. She also breaks the mold of the 'typical genius' in anime (actually in a lot of other mediums) who are so often wont to be guys or nerd girls in glasses who speaks in the speed of light. Basically, I found all these aspects of her very intriguing and her character brilliant. By no means are any of you obliged to share my opinion, of course, so don't take this as a demand for Makise or the show to be on your lists. It's just me expressing my different views on the subject. |
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| I think you are just suggesting any female characters that don't suck, since anime is so saturated with females that are terribly written. However, this list isn't just 'good female characters', but rather particularly outstanding females who somehow break out of the mold. Steins Gate, while a good series, is still a harem. A particularly well-written harem, but a harem nonetheless. Kurisu is decent, but the other females really don't have much to them. In short, try not to suggest stuff that just has decently written females who aren't useless, but rather series with females that really try to say something. Kurisu doesn't really say something about gender roles. |
| No, I'm quite aware that you want someone who breaks the mold and I did suggest Makise with that in mind. Also, some of the character relations might have been misleading to me since I don't particularly agree with them - even based on the same criteria you put forth - which is why I thought to bring Makise up as one who is well written as well as an example of a good female character. It's just that you don't agree with my perspective, that's all. By the way, since Saiunkoku Monogatari is on the anime list, therefore I'm assuming most of you have seen it, shouldn't Kou Shuurei be also on the character list? She is certainly one of the most progressive anime characters, and in a historical setting, no less. This anime is also a 'harem' or sorts (a reverse harem, to be specific) but is a good example of the fact that this label doesn't necessarily make an anime bad or anti-feminist. |
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