| It's interesting. I definitely agree a lot of shoujo titles adapted off otome games come off very sexist in their adaptations, but interestingly its not because the material itself is inherently bad (in the game). It's that they are catered to fantasy, fetish, escape, etc. However since many of them actually lack any real female character except reader insert you get these adaptations with these personality-less women being abused. It's just interesting to think about how point A gets to point B |
Amberleh said: Ink- you're more than welcome to add that one as well as Gantz and Rising of the Shield Hero. I like the last one, it's fun, but the RIDICULOUS sexism and unlikeable main character make it more difficult to watch. I don't know about the latter. It has "serious issues" written all over but at this point its numerous missteps feel more like background noise of a not too well-written generic edgy isekai than something I should actively hate. Or maybe I'm oversaturated with its controversies that feel like cheap provocations at this point. I wish they made an anime about its vocal fanbase though, that would make this list for sure. I'm not opposed though, it will be a rightfully deserved spot. It's just that at this point I can't care anymore. |
jal90Jun 5, 2019 4:13 PM
InkSpider said: Also worth mentioning is the Citrus anime. Gratuitous girl-on-girl sexual assault for fanservice (which wasn't part of the source material, interestingly). I need to make a case on this as someone who has read the Citrus manga and watched the anime adaptation: both these things are untrue. The content is not changed from the manga, nor is it played for fanservice. Like seriously, watch the ending of the first episode again and look at how it's shot and framed. Mei pinning Yuzu to the floor, Yuzu struggling to break free, and Mei standing above her in a dark silhouette as Yuzu lies there in abject horror. This is not framed as romantic or erotic, it's framed as a violation and a cue that this bitch has some screws loose. Yes, this is tamer in the manga, but it's still is, and framed as, a sexual assault. Pinning someone down and kissing them against their will is exactly what an assault is. The anime changed nothing here in terms of content. The extra lengths taken by the adaptation is not fanservice, it's portraying it as it should be, utilizing the animation medium to elicit the proper emotion. And yes, Mei does act this way for a reason as explored later in the story. Her actions are never condoned or excused and are shown to be those of an abused, broken person; one with a warped perception of human relationships. Subsequent assaults are just as discomforting as before and always lead to negative outcomes, with Mei getting slapped after one of them. With the help of Yuzu, she improves over time as her problematic behavior diminishes and overcomes her many psychological hurdles. All these things are not the qualities of a problematic manga/anime, and the wide misconceptions of Citrus just irritate me more as I have to continuously bring forth the reality of its content. |
| @AltoRoark - As someone who read both... Yeah no I'm sorry. It IS played for fanservice. You can have characters show abject horror and have it STILL be fanservice. And Yuzu gives into the assault, comes to like it, just as many victims do in hentai. Even if she does slap Mei sometimes, it's all played for drama and fanservice to keep the story going. Even Kannazuki no Miko does a better job of the whole girl on girl sexual assault with a motive. Just because they actually describe a reason for the behavior doesn't make the series as a whole less gross. Plenty of rape hentai do this as well. It IS a problematic manga/anime and NOT a good representation of the yuri genre. It also doesn't portray any of the trauma in a feminist positive way. It's another one of the "lol EVERYONE IS GAY HAVE SOME FANSERVICE" anime/manga, much like Strawberry Panic. Oh and like don't get me started on the shoe-horning "LOL THEY'RE STEPSISTERS and their dad is never home so they can do the sexies as many times as we want to draw it!" You are newer to the yuri genre, so I can understand why you may think Citrus represents assault/sexual abuse/yuri/etc well, but when you finish Utena and dip into more Yuri/shoujo ai I think you'll have a different viewpoint. Plenty of anime/manga do the abuse victim thing well- Citrus is NOT one of them. |
Amberleh said: @AltoRoark - As someone who read both... Yeah no I'm sorry. It IS played for fanservice. You can have characters show abject horror and have it STILL be fanservice. And Yuzu gives into the assault, comes to like it, just as many victims do in hentai. Even if she does slap Mei sometimes, it's all played for drama and fanservice to keep the story going. Even Kannazuki no Miko does a better job of the whole girl on girl sexual assault with a motive. Just because they actually describe a reason for the behavior doesn't make the series as a whole less gross. Plenty of rape hentai do this as well. It IS a problematic manga/anime and NOT a good representation of the yuri genre. It also doesn't portray any of the trauma in a feminist positive way. It's another one of the "lol EVERYONE IS GAY HAVE SOME FANSERVICE" anime/manga, much like Strawberry Panic. Oh and like don't get me started on the shoe-horning "LOL THEY'RE STEPSISTERS and their dad is never home so they can do the sexies as many times as we want to draw it!" You are newer to the yuri genre, so I can understand why you may think Citrus represents assault/sexual abuse/yuri/etc well, but when you finish Utena and dip into more Yuri/shoujo ai I think you'll have a different viewpoint. Plenty of anime/manga do the abuse victim thing well- Citrus is NOT one of them. >"And Yuzu gives into the assault, comes to like it" Well, now I'm lost as to whether we read or saw the same work here, because this just isn't correct. Yuzu always objects and retaliates to these actions. And considering she had feelings for Mei well before the first assault, it's untrue to say that these events are what accumulated her love. So again, what are you even talking about here? This is a blatantly false interpretation of the content and makes me question if you know the material nearly as well as you think you do. Other than that, this post is basically a series of non-arguments strung together with claims that aren't backed up. You've done very little to properly counter what I've said here. You claim something to be fanservice without any logical points to support this, save for the grossly incorrect statement that Yuzu "comes to like it." Honestly, what this all reads as is an unwillingness to let go of the surface-level impression that Citrus is just fanservice and deflecting any and all statements to the contrary. And as for the "everyone is gay" thing...we'll get to that some other time. And your last paragraph is pretty much a feeble attempt as garnering credibility. Which is fine, but would be far better if you offered something substantial alongside it. And considering that this is a matter of what shows belong on a list, you've not made a solid case here, and having read all the GL in the goddamn world doesn't change this fact. |
AltoRoarkJun 24, 2019 11:32 AM
| So on another note...I've been watching Karakuri Circus, and it's treatment of females is...less than ideal should I say. It's very male-focused for the most part with females primarily being there to protect or nurture. That's not too horribly bad by itself, but then there's Liang, who just has to have her sex appeal brought up in each fight she's in, with villains lusting over her and getting her embarrassed. It really comes off as pandering to a male audience and not in a tasteful way at that. I guess to its credit, she puts up with it and defeats the bad guy in the end. In the first scenario, she acts out her humiliation which distracts the opponent. In the second scenario she's in a game of luck where she changes into odd clothing every time she loses, and then uses some trick to defeat him. So...yeah. It is handled with some competence but that doesn't really make it warranted, especially in the first scenario. I'm curious if anyone else here has seen it. |
AltoRoarkJun 24, 2019 10:20 PM
MossyNasi said: Don't you want to add point like "unnecessary fanservice"? For example, it's about about "Shokugeki no souma" (which is good itself thought and has interesting female characters) It's equal-opportunity fanservice. I don't think it's sexist if there's fanservice of both genders. |
| Shitty yuri time! Maria-sama ga Miteru, despite its promising start, features the protagonist being repeatedly harassed and molested by an older girl in her school, and is blamed for resisting by her own love interest. I don't have words. Yuru Yuri features three counts of sexual harassment between loli-bodied middle schoolers within five minutes. Sure am glad this got three seasons while an actually good yuri, Sasameki Koto only got 1. /s How about some old timey misogyny with a side-order of bad depression rep? Black Jack's first episode features the hero telling a suicidal woman he doesn't care if she dies, then slapping her in the face. She goes on to thank him for this later. There's more context, but it really just makes it worse. If anyone feels these shouldn't be added and has an argument for why not, I'm willing to hear it out. EDIT: I'm referring to original Black Jack, not the 2004 remake, which I've never seen and know nothing about. |
InkSpiderJan 2, 2020 11:47 AM
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
Freshie44 said: Doubt anyone in this club would want to watch/read any version of Freezing, but it absolutely needs to placed on this list. It was straight appalling on how it treats its lead female. She made fun of the supporting cast for refusing to enter a baptism(which is coded as sex) with her limiter, even though she has been forced upon at least thrice. Not one character even think of asking why or empathize with her. She constantly stripped for humor and basically sexually harrassed through "playful" fondling. Also, the stepsister that got her out the first time totally just doesn't think oh maybe I should let the rapey stepbrother anywhere near her, but nope we also had to deal with him trying to pull her back. Absolutely avoid this title. I sort of feel like Freezing is one of those titles that most feminists would know to avoid like the plague, or at least it wouldn't have any appeal. I kind of wanted to avoid just throwing every ecchi or harem ever on the list because it would be NEVER ENDING. Titles like SAO and Elfen Lied are on their because they also have a strong female fanbase and, at first glance, COULD be misconstrued as having female-positive elements. EX: Asuna is heckin cool at first. And then she's a damsel in distress and then there's a harem that has no purpose. It COULD have been a nice action/adventure/romance anime, but nooo. And MAL fanboys won't even let them add the harem tag. I remember it had it briefly and fans THREW A FIT. So there's no warning for any newcomers. Even the later seasons don't have the harem tag, and I'm told it's even worse then. PLUS there's so much sexual assault, none of which you would expect given the first few episodes or the description. I'm certainly not opposed to adding Freezing and I can pop it on there real quick, I just wanted to explain why it wasn't already and why MANY extremely problematic harems and the like aren't on there. But like... I sorta feel like the tags are enough to keep people away with Freezing. Just LOOK at em.  |
| Added Uta Kata. Hyper-sexualized 14 year olds with panty-shots and barely censored nudity by the buckets. |
| "Bang." -Spike Spiegal "Everything... is connected." -Lain Iwakura "Life is too short to watch bad anime. Long Live the 1st Episode Drop." -InkSpider "Anime fans make me embarrassed to be an anime fan." -InkSpider |
InkSpider said: Added Uta Kata. Hyper-sexualized 14 year olds with panty-shots and barely censored nudity by the buckets. Realizing Uta Kata was SHAFT made everything make more sense when I thought about WHY I hated it. Essentially every SHAFT work (Madoka being the exception, though I have half a mind to add Rebellion because screw that movie) belongs on our list, but many of them are just obvious harems anyway. |
Amberleh said: InkSpider said: Added Uta Kata. Hyper-sexualized 14 year olds with panty-shots and barely censored nudity by the buckets. Realizing Uta Kata was SHAFT made everything make more sense when I thought about WHY I hated it. Essentially every SHAFT work (Madoka being the exception, though I have half a mind to add Rebellion because screw that movie) belongs on our list, but many of them are just obvious harems anyway. More than deserved for Dance in the vampire bund alone, but still, crying for 3-gatsu no lion and Arakawa. |
AmberlehApr 15, 2020 11:29 PM
jal90 said: Amberleh said: Realizing Uta Kata was SHAFT made everything make more sense when I thought about WHY I hated it. Essentially every SHAFT work (Madoka being the exception, though I have half a mind to add Rebellion because screw that movie) belongs on our list, but many of them are just obvious harems anyway. More than deserved for Dance in the vampire bund alone, but still, crying for 3-gatsu no lion and Arakawa. I AM SO SORRY JAL I went to quote your post and didn't realize I had hit 'edit' that's why it says I edited your post. I am so so sorry. Admin powers are dangerous. I had forgotten those two were SHAFT. I did like what I saw of 3-gatsu, though I could have done without the 'artsy' camera angles and weird face tilts and zoom-ins. I have also heard very good things about Arakawa. |
Amberleh said: jal90 said: More than deserved for Dance in the vampire bund alone, but still, crying for 3-gatsu no lion and Arakawa. I AM SO SORRY JAL I went to quote your post and didn't realize I had hit 'edit' that's why it says I edited your post. I am so so sorry. Admin powers are dangerous. I had forgotten those two were SHAFT. I did like what I saw of 3-gatsu, though I could have done without the 'artsy' camera angles and weird face tilts and zoom-ins. I have also heard very good things about Arakawa. Oh, don't worry, if you didn't say I wouldn't have noticed xD I absolutely had to mention those two, forgive me xD. I think I haven't watched any harem from SHAFT so my impression on the studio is far softer. And Arakawa is quite good! Not as clean as 3-gatsu because it has some tasteless jokes and side characters, but overall it's very endearing and harmless. |
ZYW said: Ugh, so Maria-sama is shitty, anti-feminist yuri? Ouch, one of my favourites. I haven't seen it nor did I put it there. I have never heard of it being sexist or anything, I'll remove it until I hear more. Edit: Scrolled up, InkSpider watched it and said the main love interest repeatedly sexually assaults the lead. I'll pick it up and start watching it ASAP and make my own judgement on it. Also being on this list doesn't make it bad. It just makes it sexist. Berserk is a fantastic series, but it's still very sexist- Just like something being feminist does not make it a good series. It simply means it tics off the right boxes for us. GTO is a series I love with all my heart, but good golly Jesus is it sexist. |
AmberlehJun 29, 2020 2:01 PM
ZYW said: Amberleh said: I haven't seen it nor did I put it there. I have never heard of it being sexist or anything, I'll remove it until I hear more. Edit: Scrolled up, InkSpider watched it and said the main love interest repeatedly sexually assaults the lead. I'll pick it up and start watching it ASAP and make my own judgement on it. Also being on this list doesn't make it bad. It just makes it sexist. Berserk is a fantastic series, but it's still very sexist- Just like something being feminist does not make it a good series. It simply means it tics off the right boxes for us. GTO is a series I love with all my heart, but good golly Jesus is it sexist. Understandable. You can like the series despite some flaws or you can immediatly drop it after one episode. Having a somewhat decent taste narrows the scope unfortunately. But several non-extreme scenes thoroughout the series =/= entirely problematic premise as a whole from the beginning till the end, right? Another question, does The End of Evangelion (for example, hospital scene) tick the boxes for this list? A valid question. To be honest, I haven't watched Evangelion or End Of in nearly 20 years, but as I recall the series is overall kinda sexist but that was part of the point in a way? That particular scene I felt was less sexist and more about adolescence. But again, it's been almost 2 decades since I watched anything related to Eva. |
| Not sure if this thread mentioned it because I couldn't read all of the replies, I even wrote a review on this but "Watashi no megane-kun" and its main female character Chouko gets raped and the rapist justifies it with a weird excuse. I think it belongs to the list above. I've watched Elfen Lied, Dance in the Vampire Bund, etc. which are in the list above, and I have to agree that a good portion of anime/manga is quite anti-feminist and sexist. Okamoto Lynn's other work Brynhildr also fits into the list. His works are great, brilliant, but the load of unnecessary crap is just not needed. |
Waves02 said: What's wrong with Kaguya-Sama? I haven't seen it yet.I want to add Darling in the FranXX to that list asap. And Kaguya-sama Love is War. |
Waves02 said: Dalek-kun said: What's wrong with Kaguya-Sama? I haven't seen it yet. It has scenes of utter horror regarding the safety of women. They also don't take a moment to say those types of behaviors from boys and men are not acceptable. It actually portrays them as cute, when they are anything but. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm also adding Kakegurui and Wonder Egg Priority to the list. Also, Berserk, Junji Ito Collection: Tomie. At this point, I firmly believe that there is no anime that is truly feminist in nature, considering misogyny is all around us in society, at all levels. Given that the staff from anime studios and the mangaka are mostly male, you shouldn't expect them to know how to portray women and girls properly. I've come across a quote recently that says that the best written woman is a man written by a woman. Basically, women also have a small to greater amount of internalized misogyny and so if they make female characters, those will have misogyny attached to them as well. It's no fault of the woman in question of course, this time, the mangaka or anime director and staff, but it's the fault of men. As for why men written by women are the original misogyny-free women? Apparently women imagine men to be very different from how they actually are irl, who would've thought! And so, the fiction women create is very different in the ways both sexes are presented. Read women more. Read books about and for women and manga too. It's time we listened to each other more. What’s wrong with Wonder Egg Priority and Kakegurui? I haven’t seen the former, and I watched kakegurui a while ago and ik it’s terrible but can’t remember exactly why. |
Waves02 said: daisys said: What’s wrong with Wonder Egg Priority and Kakegurui? I haven’t seen the former, and I watched kakegurui a while ago and ik it’s terrible but can’t remember exactly why. If you've not seen the former, just don't. It has the same issue as Berserk apparently, but in moe style. What the fuck?! I don’t remember the r^^^ thing. And I was planning to watch wonder egg priority soon, that’s disappointing. Why is anime so good but so terrible? I feel like I’m becoming desensitised to it’s sexualisation and sexism, which isn’t a good thing. Do you have any recs? |
daisys said: Waves02 said: If you've not seen the former, just don't. It has the same issue as Berserk apparently, but in moe style. What the fuck?! I don’t remember the r^^^ thing. And I was planning to watch wonder egg priority soon, that’s disappointing. Why is anime so good but so terrible? I feel like I’m becoming desensitised to it’s sexualisation and sexism, which isn’t a good thing. Do you have any recs? "The same issue as Berserk apparently" must mean that it deals with sexual assault in some vague way or another, or else is the overstatement of the century. WEP has other problems later on, using sexual assault as a big, exploitative melodramatic moment is not one. The show has a damn lot of CWs and it does not deal with everything as smoothly as it should, but it's not even close to Eclipse arc levels of disturbing depravity. It's not "Berserk but moe". |
jal90 said: daisys said: What the fuck?! I don’t remember the r^^^ thing. And I was planning to watch wonder egg priority soon, that’s disappointing. Why is anime so good but so terrible? I feel like I’m becoming desensitised to it’s sexualisation and sexism, which isn’t a good thing. Do you have any recs? "The same issue as Berserk apparently" must mean that it deals with sexual assault in some vague way or another, or else is the overstatement of the century. WEP has other problems later on, using sexual assault as a big, exploitative melodramatic moment is not one. The show has a damn lot of CWs and it does not deal with everything as smoothly as it should, but it's not even close to Eclipse arc levels of disturbing depravity. It's not "Berserk but moe". I haven’t seen beserk so I can’t comment on that, but I watched wep recently and felt like it’s portrayal of sa was inappropriately graphic. What’s beserk like? |
daisys said: jal90 said: "The same issue as Berserk apparently" must mean that it deals with sexual assault in some vague way or another, or else is the overstatement of the century. WEP has other problems later on, using sexual assault as a big, exploitative melodramatic moment is not one. The show has a damn lot of CWs and it does not deal with everything as smoothly as it should, but it's not even close to Eclipse arc levels of disturbing depravity. It's not "Berserk but moe". I haven’t seen beserk so I can’t comment on that, but I watched wep recently and felt like it’s portrayal of sa was inappropriately graphic. What’s beserk like? I don't remember it as inappropriately graphic, it was more psychologically than physically uncomfortable. Berserk's is very violent and massive, like the show is already quite extreme in its depiction of violence so you can imagine the deal. Also |
jal90Jan 25, 2022 4:44 AM
jal90 said: daisys said: I haven’t seen beserk so I can’t comment on that, but I watched wep recently and felt like it’s portrayal of sa was inappropriately graphic. What’s beserk like? I don't remember it as inappropriately graphic, it was more psychologically than physically uncomfortable. Berserk's is very violent and massive, like the show is already quite extreme in its depiction of violence so you can imagine the deal. Also Yup.. they said some shit about how men are goal oriented and commit suicide because of reasons related to that, whereas women are emotional and are easily impacted by others and commit suicide for reasons relating to that. Such garbage. |
daisys said: jal90 said: I don't remember it as inappropriately graphic, it was more psychologically than physically uncomfortable. Berserk's is very violent and massive, like the show is already quite extreme in its depiction of violence so you can imagine the deal. Also Yup.. they said some shit about how men are goal oriented and commit suicide because of reasons related to that, whereas women are emotional and are easily impacted by others and commit suicide for reasons relating to that. Such garbage. God damn, that ='(. I was expecting the whole final act to somehow debunk it. It doubled down. What a terrible way to end the show. |
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