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Jul 25, 2013 10:27 PM

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No, it's only got two episodes out on the Rooster teeth website who are American and people are already asking for it to be put on MAL?
Modified by Objurgo, Jul 25, 2013 10:31 PM
 
Jul 25, 2013 10:33 PM

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Jamie_Estevez said:
We should add Totally Spies and Teen Titans while we're at it.

Se7en360 said:
It honestly shocks me how so many anime fans are against anime-styled animation that is not Japanese in origin. You would think as fans they would embrace the idea of their favorite style becoming more of a globally accepted form of animation rather then trying to impede its growth internationally. It just seems foolish to dismiss the work of great writers and animators around the world because of they are not a certain ethnicity.


Why is that? o_O It's because I'm an anime fan that I have standards to begin with.. that's why I watch anime because it does stuff no other country does with animation. Just because a show like Totally Spies or Avatar rips off the style and tries to say it's anime doesn't mean it succeeds. Llittle kids on DeviantArt say totally Spies is so sexy and hot and fanservicy but then I watch it and they can't even draw a single line of cleavage and there's nothing hot about it at all and I wonder how the heck it's fanservice. Then I see Avatar get called shounen anime so I watch it and get a show where no one can actually hurt each other and the writing is so simplistic and the violence is kiddy slap fights. It's because we're anime fans there's were critical of animation to begin with. These shows don't show global acception of animation being more than just for kids shows.. because these are kids shows true and true and are no different than other stuff aside from they throw in some cheap chibis and sweat drops because they're trying to cash in on the anime boom.

Not until you see 40 shows a season of varying genres and age groups out of America like we do out of Japan each season can we really have this discussion. Because praising and saying Totally Spies or Avatar is 'good enough' just means they'll make more stuff like it and not push it beyond the kiddy limits which is the entire problem with them in the first place.



Totally Spies isn't an American animation. I believe its French-Canadian or something.

And maybe Avatar can be called a kids show, but The Legend of Korra stepped it up a notch. Spoilers for said show here:


Also, don't forget that there are kids shows that are called anime. See Pokemon, Digimon, Bakugan, and the like.

Finally, an American show with fanservice and sexual things being mentioned include The Maxx and The Boondocks. Heck, The Boondocks even looks like an anime, and contains a lot of harsh language.

You can't really differentiate anime and American animation by how violent and how much sex is in them.
Keilis said:
They're not talking about style. They're talking about country of origin. >> Kinda like how we don't lump OEL with regular manga, because OEL didn't originate in Japan. The term "anime" for English speakers refers to animation from Japan, not animation with big eyes and shiny hair.

Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?
Modified by Battlechili, Jul 25, 2013 10:48 PM
 
Jul 25, 2013 10:41 PM

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Battlechili1 said:
And maybe Avatar can be called a kids show, but The Legend of Korra stepped it up a notch. Spoilers for said show here:


You're using being knocked out and tied up as some kind of violence? That was always a cop out. Rather than the villain killing anyone he just seals away their bending. That was such an obvious cop out and substitute for death it was obnoxious. And they still cop out and give everyone back their bending in the end so there's no actual consequences or bad stuff.

And no, that ending was a cop out. You don't see anything, and it's about as "Disney Death' as you can get, the equivalent of a villain falling off a cliff into the ocean below at the end of a Disney movie. No body, no actual on screen death. It deals with it in a very kiddy and non-direct way. For all you know they're still alive with how ambiguous it is since they dont show a body or death.

Also, don't forget that there are kids shows that are called anime. See Pokemon, Digimon, Bakugan, and the like.


And all of those have tons more 'mature' content than Avatar and Totally Spies does so I don't see the point. Kids anime in Japan can have nudity, blood, death, and deal with heavy topics. That's why those shows are always so butchered when they air on TV.

Boondocks is an adult show so it doesn't really count since it can obviously get away with stuff, but then the problem becomes adult cartoons here are never serious and always comedy shows. =
 
Jul 25, 2013 10:44 PM

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Battlechili1 said:
Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?


Y'know. Might as well push to get those removed, if this site is gonna be strict about its policies.

Objurgo said:
No, it's only got two episodes out on the Rooster teeth website who are American and people are already asking for it to be put on MAL?


Plz. We already have some FALL 2013 anime already listed:
http://myanimelist.net/anime/17895/Golden_Time
Looking forward to that one, btw.
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Jul 25, 2013 10:47 PM

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KyuuAL said:
Battlechili1 said:
Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?


Y'know. Might as well push to get those removed, if this site is gonna be strict about its policies.
You might want to learn the facts about those anime. Ask the anime db board before claiming that they are inconsistent or whatever.
 
Jul 25, 2013 10:47 PM

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Jamie_Estevez said:
We should add Totally Spies and Teen Titans while we're at it.

Se7en360 said:
It honestly shocks me how so many anime fans are against anime-styled animation that is not Japanese in origin. You would think as fans they would embrace the idea of their favorite style becoming more of a globally accepted form of animation rather then trying to impede its growth internationally. It just seems foolish to dismiss the work of great writers and animators around the world because of they are not a certain ethnicity.


Why is that? o_O It's because I'm an anime fan that I have standards to begin with.. that's why I watch anime because it does stuff no other country does with animation. Just because a show like Totally Spies or Avatar rips off the style and tries to say it's anime doesn't mean it succeeds. Llittle kids on DeviantArt say totally Spies is so sexy and hot and fanservicy but then I watch it and they can't even draw a single line of cleavage and there's nothing hot about it at all and I wonder how the heck it's fanservice. Then I see Avatar get called shounen anime so I watch it and get a show where no one can actually hurt each other and the writing is so simplistic and the violence is kiddy slap fights. It's because we're anime fans there's were critical of animation to begin with. These shows don't show global acception of animation being more than just for kids shows.. because these are kids shows true and true and are no different than other stuff aside from they throw in some cheap chibis and sweat drops because they're trying to cash in on the anime boom.

Not until you see 40 shows a season of varying genres and age groups out of America like we do out of Japan each season can we really have this discussion. Because praising and saying Totally Spies or Avatar is 'good enough' just means they'll make more stuff like it and not push it beyond the kiddy limits which is the entire problem with them in the first place.




THIS. EXACTLY.
 
Jul 25, 2013 10:52 PM

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IntroverTurtle said:
KyuuAL said:
Battlechili1 said:
Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?


Y'know. Might as well push to get those removed, if this site is gonna be strict about its policies.
You might want to learn the facts about those anime. Ask the anime db board before claiming that they are inconsistent or whatever.


Facts? No one gives a crap about the Boondocks season 2 being done by an anime studio. For the record, they don't list Oban Star Racers as anime in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oban_Star_Racers
If you think that's wrong, maybe it'll get fixed.
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Jul 25, 2013 11:02 PM

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Battlechili1 said:

Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?


Inconsistencies with what should be accepted. :S If Avatar wasn't accepted as an anime, I honestly don't think Cybersix should be either. Both were concepts made in non-Japan countries, but animated in the East. The inconsistency probably stems from people beginning to add manhwa and manhua, so MAL began accepting Korean and Chinese animations as well. I honestly don't think concepts/animations that originated from the West should be here, or we may as well be called MyCartoonList instead. I know I'm not here for western animations, and neither are a lot of people. I wouldn't mind if Korean/Chinese media were removed either, if it meant being more specific on what MAL should have. I guess people here don't care too much as long as it's from the East and not the West. The whole exotic thing, probably.

Anyway, RWBY's not an anime. It's an animated web series with anime-inspired aesthetics. It doesn't, in both concept and production, originate from Japan, or even the East. It's a western animation.
 
Jul 25, 2013 11:03 PM

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Jamie_Estevez said:


You're using being knocked out and tied up as some kind of violence? That was always a cop out. Rather than the villain killing anyone he just seals away their bending. That was such an obvious cop out and substitute for death it was obnoxious. And they still cop out and give everyone back their bending in the end so there's no actual consequences or bad stuff.

And no, that ending was a cop out. You don't see anything, and it's about as "Disney Death' as you can get, the equivalent of a villain falling off a cliff into the ocean below at the end of a Disney movie. No body, no actual on screen death. It deals with it in a very kiddy and non-direct way. For all you know they're still alive with how ambiguous it is since they dont show a body or death.

Also, don't forget that there are kids shows that are called anime. See Pokemon, Digimon, Bakugan, and the like.


And all of those have tons more 'mature' content than Avatar and Totally Spies does so I don't see the point. Kids anime in Japan can have nudity, blood, death, and deal with heavy topics. That's why those shows are always so butchered when they air on TV.

Boondocks is an adult show so it doesn't really count since it can obviously get away with stuff, but then the problem becomes adult cartoons here are never serious and always comedy shows. =

The Boondocks does actually get serious and go into some controvercial topics at times (Not to joke, but to actually talk about them), though. That differentiates it from most other American Adult cartoons.

And I'm sorry, but shows like Pokemon, Digimon, and Bakugan aren't all that much harsher then shows like The Legend of Korra. Speaking of which, I used the tied up thing as violence due to Korra's reaction to it. She was genuinely scared. You could see the extreme amount of fear on her face, and it made it seem more real.
And I don't think it was necessary to show that part of the ending. I mean, could people have taken that explosion nearly as seriously if it was shown up close? Seeing blood and gore splatter all over the place would've actually killed the mood there. The point is we know what happened. And it was a little more then a Disney death because


I'm going to go back a moment though.
What does Bakugan, Digimon, or Pokemon do that makes them harsher then shows like Avatar and Legend of Korra? I don't remember any of those shows ever getting deep. Sure, some children's anime do, but those? And more violent? How? They show bruising I suppose, but...
 
Jul 25, 2013 11:09 PM

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KyuuAL said:
IntroverTurtle said:
KyuuAL said:
Battlechili1 said:
Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?


Y'know. Might as well push to get those removed, if this site is gonna be strict about its policies.
You might want to learn the facts about those anime. Ask the anime db board before claiming that they are inconsistent or whatever.


Facts? No one gives a crap about the Boondocks season 2 being done by an anime studio. For the record, they don't list Oban Star Racers as anime in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oban_Star_Racers
If you think that's wrong, maybe it'll get fixed.

I looked into it and it turns out that Cybersix was produced in Japan as well, so I suppose that's why it made it. Oban Star Racers also had more then just being animated in Japan by the looks of it.
 
Jul 25, 2013 11:42 PM

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KyuuAL said:
IntroverTurtle said:
KyuuAL said:
Battlechili1 said:
Then why are there Korean and Chinese animations here?
And why is Cybersix and why is Oban Star Racers here? I mean, they may have had some work in Japan or Korea or something, but aren't those French?


Y'know. Might as well push to get those removed, if this site is gonna be strict about its policies.
You might want to learn the facts about those anime. Ask the anime db board before claiming that they are inconsistent or whatever.


Facts? No one gives a crap about the Boondocks season 2 being done by an anime studio. For the record, they don't list Oban Star Racers as anime in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oban_Star_Racers
If you think that's wrong, maybe it'll get fixed.
I don't give a crap about Wikipedia. Remember you're talking about this site's guidelines and how it doesn't fit it, whether it fits Wikipedia's doesn't matter. And Wikipedia puts Anime right next to format for it.

And what do you mean no one gives a crap about Boondocks season 2 being done by an anime studio?
 
Jul 26, 2013 1:23 AM

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IntroverTurtle said:
And what do you mean no one gives a crap about Boondocks season 2 being done by an anime studio?


You know of Studio Madhouse, right?
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-07-14/madhouse-in-the-mix-for-boondocks-season-2

Interesting. And looking back for more info. on that subject, I see. The studio's involvement was only partly, via a Korean subsidiary:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/Madhouse?from=Main.MadHouse
Funny, I've remembered this bit of info., when that news broke out. So, for a long time, I had known about Madhouse's involvement, and presumed 100% of a season. That's too bad though. Either way, they were involved on the project in some fashion.

In general, it's unfortunate that people like Aaron McGrunder and Monty Oum only come around once ever 5 years or so. Oh well, these two won't be the last.
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Jul 26, 2013 8:24 AM

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KyuuAL said:
IntroverTurtle said:
And what do you mean no one gives a crap about Boondocks season 2 being done by an anime studio?


You know of Studio Madhouse, right?
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-07-14/madhouse-in-the-mix-for-boondocks-season-2

Interesting. And looking back for more info. on that subject, I see. The studio's involvement was only partly, via a Korean subsidiary:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/Madhouse?from=Main.MadHouse
Funny, I've remembered this bit of info., when that news broke out. So, for a long time, I had known about Madhouse's involvement, and presumed 100% of a season. That's too bad though. Either way, they were involved on the project in some fashion.

In general, it's unfortunate that people like Aaron McGrunder and Monty Oum only come around once ever 5 years or so. Oh well, these two won't be the last.
So what are you trying to get at with this? Everyone's already known that the Boondocks had some Japanese company involvement. They just don't care to talk about it much because this is an anime site and the Boondocks isn't an anime.
 
Jul 26, 2013 8:54 AM

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IntroverTurtle said:
So what are you trying to get at with this? Everyone's already known that the Boondocks had some Japanese company involvement.


And, y'know what that sounds like? Being in denial. And based on this, I'll make a prediction:


IntroverTurtle said:
They just don't care to talk about it much because this is an anime site and the Boondocks isn't an anime.


And that's basically all that you do. I would love a nickel for each time I read that line, or any similar variation.

===

Anyways, regarding RWBY - the best reason for it to be considered as anime - the character designs are COMPARABLE to that of anime characters. Do people not do compare and contrast these days anymore?
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Jul 26, 2013 9:12 AM

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KyuuAL said:
IntroverTurtle said:
So what are you trying to get at with this? Everyone's already known that the Boondocks had some Japanese company involvement.


And, y'know what that sounds like? Being in denial. And based on this, I'll make a prediction:
Not really. Are you talking about on this site? Then if he gets it made by a Japanese stuido and it is released targeting Japanese, Korean, or the Chinese audience then it would be counted as an anime here. Stuff like the boondocks are simply animated in Japan or by a Japanese company but from the beginning were meant to be targeted and released for American audiences.

KyuuAL said:
IntroverTurtle said:
They just don't care to talk about it much because this is an anime site and the Boondocks isn't an anime.


And that's basically all that you do. I would love a nickel for each time I read that line, or any similar variation.

===

Anyways, regarding RWBY - the best reason for it to be considered as anime - the character designs are COMPARABLE to that of anime characters. Do people not do compare and contrast these days anymore?
It's true. People don't hate Avatar or Boondocks, they just don't talk about it much here because it's an anime site.

How are they comparable? Big eyes? Disney did it first, actually that's where Japan got the idea from. And that's what's wrong with you, you're going on feelings. You can't measure feelings and use them as guidelines for a site. That's why MAL runs on facts, if it doesn't fit, then it doesn't go in the DB.

How are they comparable to Shin Chan?


Or Afro Samurai?
 
Jul 26, 2013 9:49 AM

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Shin-chan is comparable to Spongebob -- particularly in terms of proportion, curvature, and colorization. In fact, I argue that Shin-chan is a cartoon, based on definitions 2 and 4:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cartoon

By the way, to anyone rejecting the Merriam-Webster definition to anime, it's a good source because it's unbiased. And for the record, I have no choice but to view Shin-chan as "anime" due to the "Japanese product definition".

Personally, I think Shin-chan and Spongebob should team up. I'm rather curious as to where that would go. Of course, that will never happen.

Intorverturtle said:
Not really. Are you talking about on this site? Then if he gets it made by a Japanese stuido and it is released targeting Japanese, Korean, or the Chinese audience then it would be counted as an anime here. Stuff like the boondocks are simply animated in Japan or by a Japanese company but from the beginning were meant to be targeted and released for American audiences.


The second example: Afro Samurai was targeted for American audiences. To my surprise, I ended up watching the second movie released at Anime Expo.

Now, is RWBY comparable to Afro Samurai? No, we'll have to select a different anime series to compare RWBY to. Not surprising, this comparable exercise is similar to determining approximation. After all, it is impossible to do exact comparisons; and Afro Samurai is rather unique in this department. I might compare him with anyone in Fatal Fury.

Right now, I'm drawing a blank to compare RWBY, because I've seen so many series with anime females, such that it's actually difficult to zoom in on a particular show. With so many women to choose from, it's hard to choose just one. This is the only downside to watching so much. In particular, I am focusing on Weiss and Yang. With this, I'll have to get back on it later, because I'm using other communities to brain storm on more comparable characters.

For now, we can actually examine the word "style". If this Japan vs America thing didn't even exist, the word "style" would actually best fit by studio or artist. For example, Miyazaki style, Disney style, KyoAni style, etc. Unfortunately, this word "style" had been thrown around rather carelessly, such that it is rooted into one of anime's overall definitions. If I were to ever criticize the "style definition", it would be here.

Anyways, there's some interesting things to think about here.
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Jul 26, 2013 10:06 AM

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KyuuAL said:
Shin-chan is comparable to Spongebob -- particularly in terms of proportion, curvature, and colorization. In fact, I argue that Shin-chan is a cartoon, based on definitions 2 and 4:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cartoon

By the way, to anyone rejecting the Merriam-Webster definition to anime, it's a good source because it's unbiased. And for the record, I have no choice but to view Shin-chan as "anime" due to the "Japanese product definition".

Personally, I think Shin-chan and Spongebob should team up. I'm rather curious as to where that would go. Of course, that will never happen.
You didn't answer my question. How is RWBY comparable to Shin Chan? You said it's comparable to that of anime characters, implying that it can be compared to any anime character, meaning anime has only one style. But how come I can't see any similarities between them.

KyuuAL said:
Intorverturtle said:
Not really. Are you talking about on this site? Then if he gets it made by a Japanese stuido and it is released targeting Japanese, Korean, or the Chinese audience then it would be counted as an anime here. Stuff like the boondocks are simply animated in Japan or by a Japanese company but from the beginning were meant to be targeted and released for American audiences.


The second example: Afro Samurai was targeted for American audiences. To my surprise, I ended up watching the second movie released at Anime Expo.

Now, is RWBY comparable to Afro Samurai? No, we'll have to select a different anime series to compare RWBY to. Not surprising, this comparable exercise is similar to determining approximation. After all, it is impossible to do exact comparisons; and Afro Samurai is rather unique in this department. I might compare him with anyone in Fatal Fury.

Right now, I'm drawing a blank to compare RWBY, because I've seen so many series with anime females, such that it's actually difficult to zoom in on a particular show. With so many women to choose from, it's hard to choose just one. This is the only downside to watching so much. In particular, I am focusing on Weiss and Yang. With this, I'll have to get back on it later, because I'm using other communities to brain storm on more comparable characters.

For now, we can actually examine the word "style". If this Japan vs America thing didn't even exist, the word "style" would actually best fit by studio or artist. For example, Miyazaki style, Disney style, KyoAni style, etc. Unfortunately, this word "style" had been thrown around rather carelessly, such that it is rooted into one of anime's overall definitions. If I were to ever criticize the "style definition", it would be here.

Anyways, there's some interesting things to think about here.
Afro Samurai was released on tv for a Japanese audience with Japanese subtitles. Anyways, I have no intention of arguing about that.

So even though you said "Anyways, regarding RWBY - the best reason for it to be considered as anime - the character designs are COMPARABLE to that of anime characters."

You can't find how it compares to Shin Chan or Afro Samurai? And you can't find any characters or artstyle it is similar to, then your point is busted. You're the one who said it's COMPARABLE, now compare.

I don't feel like examining the word "style". I want you to prove what you said first.

And no there really isn't. You haven't said anything new.
 
Jul 26, 2013 10:58 AM

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IntroverTurtle said:
And you can't find any characters or artstyle it is similar to, then your point is busted.


As a supplement, I did go around other threads in MAL and other forums - inquiring more specific characters to compare RWBY characters to. It's easier, plus I didn't bother to sleep last night.

So fine. I'll compare. I'm X'ing out Shin-chan, because I view him more as a cartoon character, rather than as an anime character listed by my reasons in my previous post. As a reminder, Shin-chan fails due to:
* Proportion
* Curvature
* Colorization
If you want elaboration on this, that'll require another post. Per my view, Shin-chan is actually a cartoon character. In fact, Shin-chan cannot be comparable to "non-cartoonish" anime. You'd have to compare Shin-chan with another "cartoonish" looking anime. If you want, Shin-chan can be compared to a cartoon character, directly; because Shin-chan's design is simplistic at best.

For the record, Shin-chan is my poster-child example of what a Japanese "cartoon" looks like. That word "cartoon" uses the same sense as we Westerners use for "our" own animation.

===

But alright, let's go with RWBY. I realize, that I've been focusing on the girls too much. Can't help it. They're hot. So, how about focusing on some men, for now? (No, I'm not gay)
* Professor Ozpin (RWBY episode 1)

* Nekki Basara (Macross 7)

I wish to have full body images for both. Character design prototypes, even better.

These two are so close, they might as well be brothers. That's not just by the glasses.

Now, what to look for?
* Eye location relative to the top-and-bottom to the head Usually, the eyes are located at midway vertically from the chin to the hair top.
* Eye design How many colors and shades are used for the eyes?
* Body proportion relative to the head. Head height vs Full body height usually at a 1:6 or 1:7 ratio, for standard characters. Of course, that ratio can vary.
* Hair stylization and detail Does the hair coloring depict hair strands or group of hair strands; or is one solid color used to color the entire hair region?
In the case of Ozpin, this is minimal, but it can be seen. Plus, the image came from a scene within a dark room.
* Color contrasts not bounded by black lines Darker color shades used for shadow effects.
* Nose proportion How much of the face is covered by the nose? Yet, with that question, it's easy to wonder about Akagi, where that can actually be viewed as a trademark style. But for "90%" of anime characters, the nose is barely marked. Some, not at all.

Others:
* Arm proportion. Typically, arm length is equivalent from shoulder-to-hip.
* Leg proportion. Typically, the hip is at the midpoint of the total body height. This means, legs are as long as the torso to the head.

For both arm and leg proportions, there are variations on both, most notably Sailor Moon - with their notoriously longer leg lengths.

Of course, there's more; but that's a start. In another thread, we can probably examine further some general anime design principles. I cannot draw anime style; but apparently, I've studied a little bit of it.

One more:
* Believable realism. Is the character believable enough to be "real"? With this, I can cite threads asking, "Which anime universe would you like to be in?" This one needs further examination. I'm curious to see if anyone in the past mentioned Shin-chan. For now, I'll presume very unlikely.

And y'know what? I wish that I can actually do some real research on this; but I've never written anything worthy for a Master's Degree. Regardless, there are particular ground rules towards designing anime characters. It is these rules that allow many to be comparable to each other. Naturally, there exists some variation on any of them.

Afro Samurai for example has some exceptionally long arms and a marvelously small head. That's an individual style chosen by the developer. Nevertheless, some of the other traits were used, such as the shading.

===

Would you like a set of examinations for cartoons?

Introverturtle said:
I don't feel like examining the word "style".


Believe me. That word is giving me a headache.
Modified by KyuuAL, Jul 26, 2013 11:32 AM
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Jul 26, 2013 11:02 AM

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It's made by rooster teeth and is crap with some of the worst voice acting I've ever seen in my entire life.

Once the novelty and the leftover excitement from Red vs Blue wears off this will die quickly.
 
Jul 26, 2013 11:08 AM

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By the way, I could compare Weiss to someone; but I again cannot pinpoint. For now, I can say that Weiss is "attractive", by which I know that I've seen another character before who resembles her based on this same "attraction".

Now I have to wonder if it is necessary to examine the waifu phenomenon here. Personally, I'd rather not, because it's a given. The main RWBY girls are attractive - enough for some to "claim" them as waifus.
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Jul 26, 2013 11:10 AM

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KyuuAL said:
By the way, I could compare Weiss to someone; but I again cannot pinpoint. For now, I can say that Weiss is "attractive", by which I know that I've seen another character before who resembles her based on this same "attraction".

Now I have to wonder if it is necessary to examine the waifu phenomenon here. Personally, I'd rather not, because it's a given. The main RWBY girls are attractive - enough for some to "claim" them as waifus.


It's made by American's, for American's and distributed over Youtube.

It has no asian voice work, and is laughably low budget.

It isn't anime. It is a youtube miniseries.

Of course, we might as well add Red vs Blue, Mortal Kombat Legacy and the original Workaholics videos onto MAL too.
 
Jul 26, 2013 11:11 AM

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Avatar has a case because its at least emulating Japanese Anime.

RWBY is just cgi fan service for the people who miss Red vs Blue.
 
Jul 26, 2013 11:29 AM

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http://myanimelist.net/anime/9737/Appleseed_XIII

This point may be irrelevant but its an example of something which isn't typical 2d (I've not watched it). I'd say stuff like the boondocks looks more similar to standard anime styles than Appleseed but I get why its not listed. Simpler to stick to basic principles.

I'd like to see all stuff that is anime styled on here but rules are rules. The key word is anime-styled not who it is made by.
Modified by BBQ_Chicken, Jul 26, 2013 11:34 AM
 
Jul 26, 2013 11:36 AM

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KyuuAL said:
No, Shin chan is an anime. Him and many other anime are proof that anime is not only one style, therefore you cannot say something is an anime just by style. I also see you're X'ing out Afro Samurai, another anime that you can't compare to RWBY. You're just pulling shit out of your ass now.

KyuuAL said:
But alright, let's go with RWBY. I realize, that I've been focusing on the girls too much. Can't help it. They're hot. So, how about focusing on some men, for now? (No, I'm not gay)
You haven't focused on any women, just Shin chan, who's a guy.

KyuuAL said:
* Professor Ozpin (RWBY episode 1)

* Nekki Basara (Macross 7)

I wish to have full body images for both. Character design prototypes, even better.

These two are so close, they might as well be brothers. That's not just by the glasses.
They don't look close at all, the glasses don't look that similar anyways.

KyuuAL said:
This is where you just start making up an anime style that most don't fit.

So if no one mentioned it in that thread then it's not an anime? That's sound logic.
 
Jul 26, 2013 5:26 PM

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ENJOY SOME TL;DR

IntroverTurtle said:
So if no one mentioned it in that thread then it's not an anime? That's sound logic.


Not good to think in absolutes. By any chance, are you religious? I merely linked that thread because it is one of many effects of anime into our minds. I don't know about you; but some anime settings, I actually hope they're real.

IntroverTurtle said:
No, Shin chan is an anime. Him and many other anime are proof that anime is not only one style, therefore you cannot say something is an anime just by style. I also see you're X'ing out Afro Samurai, another anime that you can't compare to RWBY. You're just pulling shit out of your ass now.


http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=45

Even Anime News Network acknowledges problem of some Japanese animation not falling under the "anime style". So yea, I'm not talking about of my ass, buddy.

ANN anime said:
Perhaps the biggest pitfall of this definition is that, due to the wide variety of Japanese animation, regardless of any style based definition, there will always be Japanese animation that would not fit the definition


For a lot of people, this is not a comfortable thing to do. Apparently, you're not comfortable with that idea either. Personally, the root cause of this discomfort falls under the need to keep Japanese and every other culture separated from each other.

To quote Monty Oum: http://rwby.wikia.com/wiki/Monty_Oum
"geography determines your culture and culture determines your people"


Since the very beginning - from the days of "Japanimation" -- this is likely to be true. By geography, Japan managed to develop a very unique culture based on its location. After all, it did not take until World War 2 for a foreign country to successfully invade Japan. As a result, Japan managed to culturally develop independently for centuries. Of course, the country had its local interactions with China and Korea; but that's about it, until 1868 when the country negotiated with the US to open borders more. From there is the Westernization and Industrialization of Japan, and we all know where that story went.

Now, pertaining to the West, there is an inherent desire to keep the two cultures separate. After all, in the realm of music, Japanese and Korean pop music are separated as J-pop and K-pop. Though, I have been thankful of Gangnam Style being able to penetrate Western radio waves, to prove that language can irrelevant to music taste. For some reason, the concept of lumping Asian products in the same category as Western products -- that's deemed as a "no-no". Your resistance to viewing Shin-chan as a cartoon is an example of that. Your resistance to viewing RWBY (and also Avatar) as anime is another example.

When I argued regarding "OEL manga", I saw more discomfort in that argument too. Of course not, Westerners can't make manga. They're not Japanese after all. Right? The neatest thing these days, we have plenty of Westerners teaching others the fundamentals of manga drawing. Anyone who develops these skills may potentially move on to produce commercial animated works using the anime/manga style, as directed by these fundamentals.

Right now, that career path in America is exceptionally narrow. Since Avatar and the Boondocks, there had only been one person to walk that path.

IntroverTurtle said:
This is where you just start making up an anime style that most don't fit.


It's a work in progress.

My next step may be to actually take all that art knowledge and make attempts at drawing anime style myself. Due to my lack of talent in this department, I don't see myself ever producing a quality work; but at least, I'd get a taste of the beginning process of this learning curve. If you were to read a "How to Draw Manga" book (of which I possess none of those books), some of those traits are based off of their instructions. These are the kinds of reference materials where I would begin.

As for trying to fit everything, there will always be variation; but that's art. Art always has variation. The "Japan only" definition is already showing leaks, as demonstrated by this argument and numerous people asking: "Whether Avatar is anime or not".

And now, here's a visual representation summarizing our two views:

Viewing animation by "style":


Viewing animation as Japan only or not:


The style definition offers greater room for (a) some Japanese animation falling under the cartoon label and (b) some Western animation falling under the anime label. This thread exists because RWBY is under the possibility of being anime based on the stylizations used.

Ultimately, what will happen when there are 10 or even 100 "RWBYs" and "Avatars" in existence? What will you do then?

KyuuAL said:
* Professor Ozpin (RWBY episode 1)

* Nekki Basara (Macross 7)

I wish to have full body images for both. Character design prototypes, even better.

These two are so close, they might as well be brothers. That's not just by the glasses.


Your reply to that, in relation to everything I wrote out:

IntroverTurtle said:
They don't look close at all, the glasses don't look that similar anyways.


Really? You throw a one-liner in response to all that? You have excellent analytical skills, sir.

Though I understand. You're dead set on the Japan only definition, such that it is your goal to throw me off and ultimately end my argument by debunking it completely. Unfortunately, the spectrum mentality gives room for a bit of flexibility here and there with regards to categorization. A black-white mentality is rigid and potentially breakable. This discussion exists partly due to the fear of that rigidity in the process of cracking.

Ever argued against someone regarding the Second Amendment pertaining to gun safety regulation? Common arguments there boil into one side suggesting all sorts of solutions, while the other turtles up under the second half of the Second Amendment.

Anyways, I'll continue with additional analysis of comparable characters. Partly to my disappointment, few responded to my inquiry. At the same time, it's not surprising. If by and large this thread gets locked and a decision is made beforehand, I can take these analyses elsewhere.

If you don't mind, I'm going to take a break. Responses like this end up taking a lot of time to make. Your lack of effort in this department is partially discouraging; but at the same time, I am going to take a little break and watch as everyone else ignores this. After all, I have a back log of anime to watch. So, it'll be nice to sit back and enjoy a bit of that. This response alone had taken me about 1 hour 30 minutes to make. Tomorrow, I may just go out for the day and ride my bike, while the weather's good.

Thanks to this discussion. For once in a blue moon, I've argued this topic with someone with a brain. Congratulations to you, man. In addition, I am able to delve into this topic with a little bit more detail than ever before.

Now, before I forget, I'm not X'ing out Afro Samurai. In fact, Afro Samurai is my counterargument to those who define anime as "something made for the Japanese audience". Pertaining to Afro Samurai, you were aware that America had an earlier release date, than Japan, right?
Modified by KyuuAL, Jul 26, 2013 5:30 PM
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RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it.

 
Aug 1, 2013 10:17 AM

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4 pages, TL;DR
Someone tell me what to think
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If only you had justice on your side
 
Aug 2, 2013 2:40 AM

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Battlechili1 said:
I mean, could people have taken that explosion nearly as seriously if it was shown up close? Seeing blood and gore splatter all over the place would've actually killed the mood there. The point is we know what happened. And it was a little more then a Disney death because


You're asking if people would take a characters death serious if they knew if they actually died and saw them? Yes I would say they would. In fact the more you downplay it and act like it didn't happen the less serious I take it.


What does Bakugan, Digimon, or Pokemon do that makes them harsher then shows like Avatar and Legend of Korra? I don't remember any of those shows ever getting deep. Sure, some children's anime do, but those? And more violent? How? They show bruising I suppose, but...


Well you got quite a few topics. Warning, spoilers about the shows above:


Mod edit: spoiler tagged the spoilers
Modified by koleare, Aug 2, 2013 4:18 AM
 
Aug 2, 2013 4:30 PM

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Indeed. Story and/or Graphic "harshness" has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. You can easily port in a story about pink elephants and magic rainbows with some very very happy characters into an anime.

Though, if anyone actually makes something like that, I may actually go out shopping and buy a gun.
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RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it.

 
Aug 2, 2013 5:35 PM

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When will they finally add spongebob?
 
Aug 2, 2013 8:43 PM

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Jamie_Estevez said:

Why is that? o_O It's because I'm an anime fan that I have standards to begin with.. that's why I watch anime because it does stuff no other country does with animation. Just because a show like Totally Spies or Avatar rips off the style and tries to say it's anime doesn't mean it succeeds. Llittle kids on DeviantArt say totally Spies is so sexy and hot and fanservicy but then I watch it and they can't even draw a single line of cleavage and there's nothing hot about it at all and I wonder how the heck it's fanservice. Then I see Avatar get called shounen anime so I watch it and get a show where no one can actually hurt each other and the writing is so simplistic and the violence is kiddy slap fights. It's because we're anime fans there's were critical of animation to begin with. These shows don't show global acception of animation being more than just for kids shows.. because these are kids shows true and true and are no different than other stuff aside from they throw in some cheap chibis and sweat drops because they're trying to cash in on the anime boom.

Not until you see 40 shows a season of varying genres and age groups out of America like we do out of Japan each season can we really have this discussion. Because praising and saying Totally Spies or Avatar is 'good enough' just means they'll make more stuff like it and not push it beyond the kiddy limits which is the entire problem with them in the first place.



Over half of the shows on the site are total shit compared to Teen Titans and Totally Spies.
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Slyr3do0n said:
MAL is the dark underbelly of the anime community. While other naive fanboys and fangirls run around in real life forming clubs and squealing in deafening high pitch noises about their favourite animus, we remain here, meticulously dismantling the credibility of each and every show, until all that remains is a steaming pile of tropes and ass pulls which we then devour to gratiyfy our glutinous and masochistic desires.
 
Aug 2, 2013 10:14 PM

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I get the feeling Kyuu hasn't heard of outsourcing.

Style does not an anime make. If anime were defined by art style, Panty & Stocking, Crayon Shin-Chan, Fist of the North Star, Psycho Pass, Flowers of Evil, Abe's trilogy, Yoshiura's trilogy, Ghibli movies, Satoshi Kon's works, Kaasan: Mom's Life, Nodame Cantabile, Steins;Gate, and many, many more would not be considered anime or would be hard-pressed to pass as one.
 
Aug 3, 2013 12:38 AM

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Akito_Kinomoto said:
I get the feeling Kyuu hasn't heard of outsourcing.


In terms of politics - I am vehemently opposed to outsourcing. American business seek to gut the United States of the American worker, while outsourcing jobs like manufacturing to information technology to cheap labor in places like Pakistan, India, and China.

So, don't even go there, buddy.

>:(

In any case, when it comes to the anime (and manga) style, a person does not have to be born in Japan to learn the style. Many anime style fan artists are already all over the world drawing in the anime (manga) style. Sure, their work is not refined to produce any kind of commercial work. However, the pathway and learning curve is available to anyone, who wishes to partake in it.

If RWBY came out of nowhere - and people didn't know who the author was -- I'm willing to assume a number of people would presume it to be anime. But of course, something like that is mere speculation, because the opportunity to catch people off guard on this notion had passed.

Panty & Stocking, Crayon Shin-Chan, Fist of the North Star, Psycho Pass, Flowers of Evil, Abe's trilogy, Yoshiura's trilogy, Ghibli movies, Satoshi Kon's works, Kaasan: Mom's Life, Nodame Cantabile, Steins;Gate


Out of that list, I probably have only watched 3 of them: Fist of the North Star, Steins, and some of the Ghibli movies (not all). Obvious anime based on the style definition.

Crayon Shin-Chan is the prime example of what a cartoon looks like.

For the rest, I'll base off a simple Google image search:
Panty & Stocking -- both anime and non-anime versions exist.
Psycho Pass -- obviously anime
Flowers of Evil -- yea, it's anime (but I had to look a bit closer)
Abe's trilogy -- Doesn't exist. Jerk.
Yoshiura's trilogy -- Neither does this one. >:(
Ghibli movies -- obviously anime
Satoshi Kon's work -- like Paprika? Yes.
Kaasan: Mom's Life -- Cartoon
Nodame Cantabile -- Anime

I'll even add one more - that I even liked:
Kodomo no Omocha -- Cartoon

Yea, the real disturbing part on your end -- some Japanese work may end up getting relegated as "cartoon". I have to wonder: how do you actually feel about that?

As a note, that point is already covered here:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=45
And before you slap that "anime definition" thing in my face again -- keep in mind, that entry actually summarizes both sides of the argument.

Anyways, your side of the argument will be in trouble IF (and a big fat IF) this whole anime stylization actually grows within among domestic studios. So far, it's only Avatar and RWBY in the discussion, with The Boondocks at a slightly distant third.
Modified by KyuuAL, Aug 3, 2013 12:50 AM
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RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it.

 
Aug 3, 2013 1:39 AM

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KyuuAL said:

Abe's trilogy -- Doesn't exist. Jerk.
Yoshiura's trilogy -- Neither does this one. >:(


These are famous directors. Akito_Kinomoto is referring to the 3 works each that put them on the map.

Abe is Yoshitoshi Abe. His big 3 are: Haibane Renmei, Serial Experiments Lain, and Texhnolyze.

Yoshiura is Yasuhiro Yoshiura. His big 3 are: Eve no Jikan, Pale Cocoon, and Sakasama no Patema.
 
Aug 3, 2013 1:46 AM
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lanblade said:

Yoshiura is Yasuhiro Yoshiura. His big 3 are: Eve no Jikan, Pale Cocoon, and Sakasama no Patema.


Interesting. Added Pale Cocoon and Sakasama no Patema to my PTW.
 
Aug 3, 2013 3:30 AM

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It doesn't really fall in line with Anime, it's more of a one man doing cool things kinda deal.

You wouldn't put RWBY here on MAL for the same reasons you wouldn't put Eureka 7 on newgrounds.
 
Aug 3, 2013 3:46 AM

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KyuuAL said:

Kodomo no Omocha -- Cartoon


I'm guessing you haven't really seen that many Shoujo Anime? That is Shoujo Art-style

http://myanimelist.net/anime/6586/Yumeiro_P%C3%A2tissi%C3%A8re
http://myanimelist.net/anime/11457/Chibi%E2%98%86Devi!
 
Aug 3, 2013 3:52 PM
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Just my 2 cents:

I consider anime a style of animation (and not defined only by the country of origin) and it's obvious for me that both Avatar and RWBY are anime.

I'd really like you to have a poll when there is a questionable anime/cartoon to let users = us decide if we want a particular series in the database. This site is for us, after all, isn't it?
 
Aug 3, 2013 4:02 PM

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xNamelessOrderx said:
Just my 2 cents:

I consider anime a style of animation (and not defined only by the country of origin) and it's obvious for me that both Avatar and RWBY are anime.

I'd really like you to have a poll when there is a questionable anime/cartoon to let users = us decide if we want a particular series in the database. This site is for us, after all, isn't it?
Well then you see it different than the site. The site doesn't take into account the style, only where they are from and who they are aimed at, among a couple of other things. So there's really no questionable anime, it either fits or it doesn't.

And Shin chan is an anime, therefore of anime style. How does Avatar and RWBY looks similar to it to you?
 
Aug 3, 2013 9:40 PM

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IntroverTurtle said:
And Shin chan is an anime, therefore of anime style. How does Avatar and RWBY looks similar to it to you?


No, Shin-chan is a cartoon, labeled as an anime on the basis of where it is made (and nothing more).

Also, this is how I feel about the entire argument:


Last post said:
We attempted to define style guidelines for OEL "manga" series before we removed them in the past, but we gave up on the idea. It is too subjective and difficult to define a database based on style. User voting to determine series inclusion does not work either. We already need to deal with rating trolls and review upvoters; extra accounts would just be made to sway these votes, too.

As for Korean and Chinese animation, there were already some series in the database at the time of writing the guidelines. Since we decided to keep manhwa and manhua in the manga database, keeping Korean and Chinese animation as well allowed the database guidelines to be matched with each other.


My response to that:

Remove them, in order to retain consistency. Else, MAL's guideline on this issue has no credibility.
Modified by KyuuAL, Aug 4, 2013 9:39 PM
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RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it.

 
Aug 4, 2013 3:57 AM
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IntroverTurtle said:

Well then you see it different than the site. The site doesn't take into account the style, only where they are from and who they are aimed at, among a couple of other things. So there's really no questionable anime, it either fits or it doesn't.


I understand that. However i'd like to challenge this view because since the advent of shows like Avatar or RWBY it's kinda an outdated view.

I just wanna write that i don't think calling a show anime or cartoon is degrading and the whole discussion might be considered pointless because every show has to stand for itself.

I'd just like you to read these two points:

  • Anime is a style of art, not a trademark. If we limit the definition of anime to a country of origin we effectively treat anime as a trademark which is degrading to anime and a little bit offensive to us (anime fans).
  • I believe (i might be wrong) that most MAL users who watch RWBY would like to add the show to their list (i certainly do). I see no reason why MAL shouldn't let us. People who don't consider RWBY as anime would simply skip the show and don't add it to their list. All i'm saying is that MAL should let us decide whether we want to have anime-style western production (and yes, i am talking about avatar and RWBY) or not in our database.
 
Aug 4, 2013 5:37 AM

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(twebty to six, 48hours deprivation. Sorry if this rambles)

The thing is, it is sort of like a trademark. I mean, look at manga. Do we call the korean version of manga, manga? Nope, it is manwha...manhua...man... You get the point. Really the point of difference is that other cell animation/2Dcomputer animation and the like does not have any other name than being a 'cartoon' japan is really the only one in the western world that has ot's own name as a scene. So in a sense, it us unofficially trademarked. I don't see how it is degrading or offensive at all.

RWBY, is essentially a glorified/hyped-up fan project.say I'm just another fuckoff (no, I'm not calling the guy behind RWBY a fuckoff, I'm just using a general term that maybe only I use as a general term) who for a college project makes an anime-style show, complete with ameteur voice-actresses and everything and say it get's popular. Does that mean my project can be allowed on the MAL. If so, does that mean anyone else's project get's allowed also? To say, and I'm not being degrading. RWBY is basically a Doujin that isn't based off anything. Hell, look that some of the Touhou Doujin Anines, in my opinion, they look a lot better than RWBY and yet only one is on the site.

I can't speak for the MAL mods, but from the viewpoint of a guy who contributes to another archive-type site on the interbwebz stuff like this is used to maintain order. If MAL starts accepting some western exceptions, or small pet projects then some other person will argue to have Batman: TAS added on because it was done by TMS but everything else was done by Americans. Then onto Animaniacs, and then essentially the entirety of late 80's/early 90's American Cartoons Then slowly and slowly it would just turn into a general Cartoon/Animation database. Sure, there are good anime-style cartoons and the like, I fucking love Teen Titans. But, if everything is american made and it uses the, let us just say, Japanese Art Style, then what does Panty and Stocking count as. That was deliberetly made to be an homage/drunk idea to the western adult cartoons. The production and everything was done by Gainax.

In the end, RWBY is just an homage piece. An extremely well-animated homage piece with nit even dub-level Voice Actresses. I'm pretty sure they just nabbed the femalee roosterteeth employees or something and just payed to have the voice of Cortana for one part. I'm pretty sure the interwebz has a lot of other anime-homage pieces. RWBY is just getting more attention b/c it is from some company(?) (truthfully, never even heard of roosterteeth till like, two months ago)

Modified by P_D_S, Aug 4, 2013 6:02 AM
 
Aug 4, 2013 9:02 AM
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Thread Locked.

Since we will not be adding RWBY to the database, I think this thread - in terms of a support topic and MAL's DB - is long over. The content that you are arguing about (is anime style or origin?) is probably endless like the sub versus dub thread. If you want to have a general debate about that (and not about whether it should be included on MAL), then you can have it elsewhere.

In terms of the Anime DB, we have long ago taken our stance and we are not inclined to change it.

Anime is, by definition of our guidelines, animated works that originate from Japan. If we changed the guidelines to a definition of style rather than origin, many series currently in the database - that are legitimately Japanese anime - would be removed. Furthermore, it would become difficult to define guidelines on what to keep out and what to allow in. In the end, it would be chaos.

Databases need to have a scope to be useful. If we added everything and anything based on the whims of the userbase, the database would become chaotic and would lose its focus. We are not saying these American series are "not good enough" to be called anime. We are saying that they do not meet the guidelines we have set up to define the scope of our database. And thus, we will not be adding them.

We attempted to define style guidelines for OEL "manga" series before we removed them in the past, but we gave up on the idea. It is too subjective and difficult to define a database based on style. User voting to determine series inclusion does not work either. We already need to deal with rating trolls and review upvoters; extra accounts would just be made to sway these votes, too.

As for Korean and Chinese animation, there were already some series in the database at the time of writing the guidelines. Since we decided to keep manhwa and manhua in the manga database, keeping Korean and Chinese animation as well allowed the database guidelines to be matched with each other.

tl;dr: MAL defines anime based on origin, not style, and we will not be changing our stance in the forseeable future. If you'd like to discuss style versus origin in a broad sense (and not about whether it should be included on MAL), please feel free to discuss it elsewhere. Since the answer to this is clear in terms of the Anime DB - no, it will not be added - I don't believe there's anything more to discuss here.


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