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Jun 18, 2013 10:03 PM

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gamer2710 said:
watching something shouldn't require so much critical/analytical thinking.

Why so?

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:05 PM

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Tavor said:
gamer2710 said:
watching something shouldn't require so much critical/analytical thinking.

Why so?
Because in the actual act of watching, I want to be entertained. If something I'm watching really really comes off as bad (or good), then I'll engage in all the thinking after I've watched (or dropped) it.
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:07 PM

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This conversation is clearly going places.
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives.

 
Jun 18, 2013 10:12 PM

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gamer2710 said:
Because in the actual act of watching, I want to be entertained. If something I'm watching really really comes off as bad (or good), then I'll engage in all the thinking after I've watched (or dropped) it.

More than likely, if you're watching a bad show, pretty sure being over-analytical during a watch tends to be the natural reaction.

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:16 PM
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Holybaptiser said:
This conversation is clearly going places.


Just wait until someone else posts here.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:17 PM

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gamer2710 said:
Tavor said:
gamer2710 said:
watching something shouldn't require so much critical/analytical thinking.
Why so?
Because in the actual act of watching, I want to be entertained. If something I'm watching really really comes off as bad (or good), then I'll engage in all the thinking after I've watched (or dropped) it.
Are you really entertained when you turn your brain off and disengage with the medium that's entertaining you? When a cashier short-changes you in real life, do you respond to the actions that affect you, or are you "enjoying life too much" to think about things that occur in the moment? Watching anime without thinking about character subtext or story mechanics is like playing chess without thinking about the reason behind your opponents' move, or talking to someone without thinking about who he is, why he's there, what does he want, and what do you want...
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:17 PM

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KAIOKEN1113 said:
Wow, the anime compatibility of ours is pretty low, but I am sure the type of anime you watch is also good ^_^
Wait. Is this actually a real post on myanimelist.net?
LoneWolf said:
@Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:23 PM

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Araby said:
KAIOKEN1113 said:
Wow, the anime compatibility of ours is pretty low, but I am sure the type of anime you watch is also good ^_^
Wait. Is this actually a real post on myanimelist.net?


No. It's a post on myanimelist.com
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:26 PM

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Araby said:
KAIOKEN1113 said:
Wow, the anime compatibility of ours is pretty low, but I am sure the type of anime you watch is also good ^_^
Wait. Is this actually a real post on myanimelist.net?


You're damn right it is xP
FuzzyMintCloud said:
I have recently watched 60 fps porn and wow!
Basicpleb420 said:
Actually, futa can be made less gay than straight porn. You see, straight porn has one guy and one girl. Because you're fapping to something with one guy in it, that's 50% gay. If you watch futa fuck a girl, that's one girl and a half girl, thus only 25% gay. You could make it 0% gay with two girls but the problem is, that makes them lesbian, which wraps back to being 100% gay.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:29 PM

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katsucats said:
gamer2710 said:
Tavor said:
gamer2710 said:
watching something shouldn't require so much critical/analytical thinking.
Why so?
Because in the actual act of watching, I want to be entertained. If something I'm watching really really comes off as bad (or good), then I'll engage in all the thinking after I've watched (or dropped) it.
Are you really entertained when you turn your brain off and disengage with the medium that's entertaining you? When a cashier short-changes you in real life, do you respond to the actions that affect you, or are you "enjoying life too much" to think about things that occur in the moment? Watching anime without thinking about character subtext or story mechanics is like playing chess without thinking about the reason behind your opponents' move, or talking to someone without thinking about who he is, why he's there, what does he want, and what do you want...


Dont think. FEEL.
 
Jun 18, 2013 10:38 PM

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katsucats said:
gamer2710 said:
Tavor said:
gamer2710 said:
watching something shouldn't require so much critical/analytical thinking.
Why so?
Because in the actual act of watching, I want to be entertained. If something I'm watching really really comes off as bad (or good), then I'll engage in all the thinking after I've watched (or dropped) it.
Are you really entertained when you turn your brain off and disengage with the medium that's entertaining you? When a cashier short-changes you in real life, do you respond to the actions that affect you, or are you "enjoying life too much" to think about things that occur in the moment? Watching anime without thinking about character subtext or story mechanics is like playing chess without thinking about the reason behind your opponents' move, or talking to someone without thinking about who he is, why he's there, what does he want, and what do you want...
It is inevitable that some thought process occur naturally as I am watching, but do I have to consciously think about every aspect of the show all the time? When I'm talking about anime, I'm talking about something with which I can sit on my couch, relax, watch, and maybe have some good laughs or teary moments. If I try to analyze an anime right away as I'm watching it, I'll probably find faults that keep me from enjoying it as much as when I didn't think too much about it. And that's the thing: if I'm not enjoying it, I probably wouldn't want to keep watching it. Even if being overly critical means I appreciate anime more, that also means I'm not really fulfilling my goal of enjoying something passively. I'm not relaxing; I'm thinking. I'm not comfortable; I'm frustrated. I'm not emotional; I'm strict.
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion.
 
Jun 18, 2013 11:11 PM

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gamer2710 said:
katsucats said:
gamer2710 said:
Tavor said:
gamer2710 said:
watching something shouldn't require so much critical/analytical thinking.
Why so?
Because in the actual act of watching, I want to be entertained. If something I'm watching really really comes off as bad (or good), then I'll engage in all the thinking after I've watched (or dropped) it.
Are you really entertained when you turn your brain off and disengage with the medium that's entertaining you? When a cashier short-changes you in real life, do you respond to the actions that affect you, or are you "enjoying life too much" to think about things that occur in the moment? Watching anime without thinking about character subtext or story mechanics is like playing chess without thinking about the reason behind your opponents' move, or talking to someone without thinking about who he is, why he's there, what does he want, and what do you want...
It is inevitable that some thought process occur naturally as I am watching, but do I have to consciously think about every aspect of the show all the time? When I'm talking about anime, I'm talking about something with which I can sit on my couch, relax, watch, and maybe have some good laughs or teary moments. If I try to analyze an anime right away as I'm watching it, I'll probably find faults that keep me from enjoying it as much as when I didn't think too much about it. And that's the thing: if I'm not enjoying it, I probably wouldn't want to keep watching it. Even if being overly critical means I appreciate anime more, that also means I'm not really fulfilling my goal of enjoying something passively. I'm not relaxing; I'm thinking. I'm not comfortable; I'm frustrated. I'm not emotional; I'm strict.
Yeah he is right, I will give an example:
Nyaruko is one of the victims of the elitists, they heared about lovecraft and they started to search for deeper deep while there wasnt any, whole show was about funny gags and nyaruko sick Love. They want to use same scale to rate diffrent geners, if we would rate death note by prism of comedy death note rating would be 0, that's why we cannot rate comedy by prism of psychological thrillers like elitists do...
 
Jun 18, 2013 11:16 PM
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But really, I wouldn't criticize people for watching anime with a simpler mindset(including but not limited to moe/fanservice). Its not like they are doing anything wrong, they are just enjoying anime their own way...although I personally believe they are missing out.


In a way, I sympathize, but I think certain mediums tend to do certain things better than others. Just because of the way the industry evolved, anime excels at action, hyperactive weirdness, comedy, but... not so much deep stuff. There's some intellectually engaging series and films, but most of them just wade through bog-deep postmodernism that wasn't particularly new 100 years ago.

Basically, you don't go to Dairy Queen for a nice lobster roll, you go there for ice cream.
 
Jun 18, 2013 11:20 PM

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gamer2710 said:
If I try to analyze an anime right away as I'm watching it, I'll probably find faults that keep me from enjoying it as much as when I didn't think too much about it.
To help illustrate my point, let's take the extreme end of the scale where the viewer tries as hard as he could to not find any faults, so he would give a 10 rating to any anime between 1-10. Does this person really love anime as much as his score suggests? No, because he is actively tuning out anime at the same time that he is watching it. He does not even trust that he would be entertained if he applied just a little bit of thought to engage with the medium. In fact, I wouldn't find it too arrogant to say that this theoretical person might actually dislike anime, since he has absolutely no expectations for it.

The solution here is standards. And I don't mean the type of standards where someone just ignores everything that falls outside of his core interests... I mean standards that a person sets for himself. Is he really entertained by all anime from 1-10? Let's say he puts 30% into it, so that anything from 4-10 is still rated 10, but 1-3 might be a 9, or a 7 -- and if he still sticks around with this hobby after doing this, then that proves that he likes anime just a little bit.

I'm not suggesting that people go full monty. Let me demonstrate the other extreme: A person gives a 1 rating for all anime between 1-9.5, and the very top echelon of anime gets a detailed rating between 1-10. Such a person who sets standards this high for himself is sure to have a terrible time in most his pursuits because he takes himself too seriously -- unless he's very fuckin' capable.

But surely the reasonable balance is to give enough thought, be engaged enough so that any anime between 1-10 gets rated anywhere between 1-10. If such a person sticks around after setting this level of standard for himself, you can be sure he enjoys anime. However, if he doesn't enjoy it, then that doesn't mean he should lower his standards in my opinion -- he should find a new hobby that he does enjoy.

Getting back to my first post yesterday: Someone who likes every single anime he watches probably doesn't like anime at all, because it makes absolutely no sense to avoid thinking about something someone is entertained in. It's like being entertained by basketball but not knowing the score.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
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Jun 18, 2013 11:24 PM
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Bravo on making this. A very imaginative and fun read, despite some minor misgivings.

As for me, I try to be John in this relationship, though I tend to be more critical or appreciative certain themes (e.g. war/politics, drama, and story/characterization) and schemes and less critical and appreciative of others (e.g. ecchi/harem, comedy, animation/character design). A synthesis between sound storytelling and my own preferences.
Modified by ZeroReq011, Jun 19, 2013 12:03 AM
 
Jun 18, 2013 11:56 PM
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Love is the thing we cannot explain

Same as enjoyment we dont need to explain it, only selfish dictators force us to do it, here u have one:
-katsucats
Stalin forced us to comunism, we know how he finished.

Keep thinking the whole world is wrong and Im only right, hopefully we are free and we can rate as we wish :).

peace&love&freedom!!
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:09 AM

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Chiukuru said:
Love is the thing we cannot explain

Same as enjoyment we dont need to explain it, only selfish dictators force us to do it, here u have one:
-katsucats
Stalin forced us to comunism, we know how he finished.

Keep thinking the whole world is wrong and Im only right, hopefully we are free and we can rate as we wish :).

peace&love&freedom!!
We can fend off the Stalin's of the future through intellectual integrity rather than intellectual laziness. If all emotions need no explanation, and all motivations are emotional, then you would have no right to criticize Stalin, or even Pol Pot. If we want to engage in the world we live in, then we must learn to distinguish, whether it's something as innocuous as the different colors, different periods of the dinosaur age, or different geological layers; or something as relevant as different qualities in character, different qualities in art, or different qualities in ideology.

We are not free, and being free is not desirable.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:15 AM
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Chiukuru said:
Love is the thing we cannot explain

Same as enjoyment we dont need to explain it, only selfish dictators force us to do it, here u have one:
-katsucats
Stalin forced us to comunism, we know how he finished.

Keep thinking the whole world is wrong and Im only right, hopefully we are free and we can rate as we wish :).

peace&love&freedom!!


Far be it from me to digress into politics and philosophy (Stalin is hardly a reputable communist figurehead), but since you're so inclined to go down this road, I'll go out and say that being free includes the capacity to be critical, lest one be slavish to one's emotions and whims. In my opinion, its not a life worth living, and it's disrespectful to claim to be passionate for anime and not be willing to criticize it whenever it presumes to be moving or inspiring or thoughtful but instead takes the low road of titillation instead of the proper one.
Modified by ZeroReq011, Jun 19, 2013 12:25 AM
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:42 AM

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Wow ... Anyone else find it ironic that a thread that is hating on elitist's opinions because they are people who hate on other's opinions ironic?
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:45 AM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
Wow ... Anyone else find it ironic that a thread that is hating on elitist's opinions because they are people who hate on other's opinions ironic?


Yeah, we've already realized that this is a contradicting thread in some ways.
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:46 AM

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Nidstang said:
Pirating_Ninja said:
Wow ... Anyone else find it ironic that a thread that is hating on elitist's opinions because they are people who hate on other's opinions ironic?


Yeah, we've already realized that this is a contradicting thread in some ways.
wait, wait, in what ways is it not?
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:49 AM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
Nidstang said:
Pirating_Ninja said:
Wow ... Anyone else find it ironic that a thread that is hating on elitist's opinions because they are people who hate on other's opinions ironic?


Yeah, we've already realized that this is a contradicting thread in some ways.
wait, wait, in what ways is it not?


When some people are not being whiny about other people's business. You see, there were a lot of different discussions and rants here.
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:51 AM

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Pirating_Ninja said:
Wow ... Anyone else find it ironic that a thread that is hating on elitist's opinions because they are people who hate on other's opinions ironic?

You already said that or someone else I think.
 
Jun 19, 2013 12:54 AM

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tsudecimo said:
Pirating_Ninja said:
Wow ... Anyone else find it ironic that a thread that is hating on elitist's opinions because they are people who hate on other's opinions ironic?

You already said that or someone else I think.
I think I did ... kind of ... "Intoxicated" atm so have the attention span of a goldfish.
 
Jun 19, 2013 1:12 AM
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Nidstang said:
This thread isn't dead yet? Fuck yeah.


My thoughts exactly.
Worships Asparagus.
 
Jun 19, 2013 1:27 AM

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Araby said:
Fucking Mary.

Mary is a sexy bitch.

Anyway the overlong post has its point but rating =/= liking and therefore the firstly mentioned tautology doesn't exist in these terms. But whatever.
 
Jun 19, 2013 1:45 AM

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Krunchy said:
Yeah he is right, I will give an example:
Nyaruko is one of the victims of the elitists, they heared about lovecraft and they started to search for deeper deep while there wasnt any, whole show was about funny gags and nyaruko sick Love. They want to use same scale to rate diffrent geners, if we would rate death note by prism of comedy death note rating would be 0, that's why we cannot rate comedy by prism of psychological thrillers like elitists do...
I think the reason most people rate Nyaruko low is because it's not funny. I went in with low expectations knowing full well that it was just a mindless comedy and I was still hugely disappointed.
 
Jun 19, 2013 1:50 AM

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jal90 said:
Araby said:
Fucking Mary.

Mary is a sexy bitch.

Anyway the overlong post has its point but rating =/= liking and therefore the firstly mentioned tautology doesn't exist in these terms. But whatever.
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 1:55 AM

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SaberRitsu said:
Krunchy said:
Yeah he is right, I will give an example:
Nyaruko is one of the victims of the elitists, they heared about lovecraft and they started to search for deeper deep while there wasnt any, whole show was about funny gags and nyaruko sick Love. They want to use same scale to rate diffrent geners, if we would rate death note by prism of comedy death note rating would be 0, that's why we cannot rate comedy by prism of psychological thrillers like elitists do...
I think the reason most people rate Nyaruko low is because it's not funny. I went in with low expectations knowing full well that it was just a mindless comedy and I was still hugely disappointed.
Well somehow ur right cuz it depend on our taste, I wanted to point how elitists tend to rate various genres.
 
Jun 19, 2013 1:57 AM

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katsucats said:
jal90 said:
Araby said:
Fucking Mary.

Mary is a sexy bitch.

Anyway the overlong post has its point but rating =/= liking and therefore the firstly mentioned tautology doesn't exist in these terms. But whatever.
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?

Don't twist my comment. This is not about what I would or would not do. It is about the separated definitions of a rating (a score among a numerical rank) and the act of liking or enjoying something. They are linked as a cause-consequence but they are not the same thing. So, "I rated it highly because I enjoyed it" is, if anything, an obvious and very easy to achieve information, but not a tautology.

And yep, I like some anime that I've rated lower than some I've rated higher. For instance, I like my 8s :P
Modified by jal90, Jun 19, 2013 2:02 AM
 
Jun 19, 2013 2:17 AM

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jal90 said:
katsucats said:
jal90 said:
Araby said:
Fucking Mary.

Mary is a sexy bitch.

Anyway the overlong post has its point but rating =/= liking and therefore the firstly mentioned tautology doesn't exist in these terms. But whatever.
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Don't twist my comment.
jal90 said:
And yep, I like some anime that I've rated lower than some I've rated higher. For instance, I like my 8s :P


katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Same question...

jal90 said:
This is not about what I would or would not do. It is about the separated definitions of a rating (a score among a numerical rank) and the act of liking or enjoying something. They are linked as a cause-consequence but they are not the same thing. So, "I rated it highly because I enjoyed it" is, if anything, an obvious and very easy to achieve information, but not a tautology.
IF A --> B, then "B because A" is tautological. For example:

Rule. It is self-evident that being submerged under water for an hour necessarily leads to drowning.

Q: How did he drown?
A: He was submerged under water.

No shit, Sherlock. Such an answer provides us with no additional information over common sense. On the other hand, if you believe it is reasonable to rate anime that you like less higher, then I'd like to know the rationale.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 2:36 AM

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katsucats said:
jal90 said:
katsucats said:
jal90 said:
Araby said:
Fucking Mary.

Mary is a sexy bitch.

Anyway the overlong post has its point but rating =/= liking and therefore the firstly mentioned tautology doesn't exist in these terms. But whatever.
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Don't twist my comment.
jal90 said:
And yep, I like some anime that I've rated lower than some I've rated higher. For instance, I like my 8s :P


katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Same question...

Hey, that was me mocking at your wording. Don't look further.

katsucats said:
jal90 said:
This is not about what I would or would not do. It is about the separated definitions of a rating (a score among a numerical rank) and the act of liking or enjoying something. They are linked as a cause-consequence but they are not the same thing. So, "I rated it highly because I enjoyed it" is, if anything, an obvious and very easy to achieve information, but not a tautology.
IF A --> B, then "B because A" is tautological.

It is when the premise of B inequivocally implies A, in the case of ratings it doesn't, due to the huge amount of criteria that are used in them. Enjoyment is a major reason that builds them and is a common agreement to use it but it's hardly the only one that exists.
 
Jun 19, 2013 3:04 AM

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What's strange about enjoying something more than a show you rated higher?

For example, I enjoyed Black Lagoon more than Serial Experiments Lain, but the latter is the better done show.
 
Jun 19, 2013 3:07 AM

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I usually ignore them, but elitists are pretty annoying.

I do like stuff such as Monster and Berserk, but what I like largely depends on what I'm in the mood to watch. As much as I like deep shows that evoke emotions within me and make me think, sometimes I want to watch a light-hearted romantic comedy or a simple-minded battle shounen like Naruto.

And if I enjoy a show enough, I'm going to rate it high. Likewise I will rate a show low if I don't like it, regardless of what other people think of it. I rate based off of my own personal enjoyment and nothing else.
 
Jun 19, 2013 3:38 AM

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jal90 said:
katsucats said:
jal90 said:
katsucats said:
jal90 said:
Araby said:
Fucking Mary.

Mary is a sexy bitch.

Anyway the overlong post has its point but rating =/= liking and therefore the firstly mentioned tautology doesn't exist in these terms. But whatever.
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Don't twist my comment.
jal90 said:
And yep, I like some anime that I've rated lower than some I've rated higher. For instance, I like my 8s :P


katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Same question...

Hey, that was me mocking at your wording. Don't look further.

katsucats said:
jal90 said:
This is not about what I would or would not do. It is about the separated definitions of a rating (a score among a numerical rank) and the act of liking or enjoying something. They are linked as a cause-consequence but they are not the same thing. So, "I rated it highly because I enjoyed it" is, if anything, an obvious and very easy to achieve information, but not a tautology.
IF A --> B, then "B because A" is tautological.

It is when the premise of B inequivocally implies A, in the case of ratings it doesn't, due to the huge amount of criteria that are used in them. Enjoyment is a major reason that builds them and is a common agreement to use it but it's hardly the only one that exists.
If it's not the only one that exists, then...

katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Same question... LOL

If you're going to keep claiming that there's some kind of criteria besides how much you enjoy an anime when it comes to rating anime that you like from 1-10, because I can think of none (unless you abuse the system and rate it according to how many colors you can spot, or some random criteria...).
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 3:40 AM

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gamer2710 said:
. Even if being overly critical means I appreciate anime more, that also means I'm not really fulfilling my goal of enjoying something passively. I'm not relaxing; I'm thinking. I'm not comfortable; I'm frustrated. I'm not emotional; I'm strict.


I thing this is the core of not only the problems MAL is facing in regards to "elitism", but also for a lot of other problems in society: Passive vs. active members of MAL/society.

In every social construct people can be divided into several groups with varying degrees of involvement, let's just use the broader term "Active citizenship" here to illustrate my point. The common definition refers to this as a philosophy which advocates that members of companies/nation-states/ANY social construct you can imagine have certain roles and responsibilities to society and the environment, although those members may not have specific governing roles.
If a body gives rights to the people under its remit, then those same people might have certain responsibilities to uphold. The implication is that an active citizen is one who fulfills both their rights and responsibilities in a balanced way. An active citizen is therefore someone who takes a role in the community, which is the central key point of this comparison in regards to web 2.0 services or social media - including MAL.


We, as users AND (at least in theory) caring and highly interested fans of anime/manga, were given the rights to use this site establish ratings, recommendations, reviews and otherwise enhance the database that is dependable on our work to some extent (adding new characters, reporting, tag/series gardening, etc.). We do this in order to establish not only a working normative system on our part (our own ratings), but also to seek help from the community should we need them (recs, reviews, gauging titles through comparison with friends and the top lists). However, as with any social consrict, there is a distinction to be made between contributing, active and passive users:

-Contributing users usually excel at tag gardening, adding characters, updating information, writing few, but thoughout reviews and participate by making use of the features the way they are intended. Usually this gets them a good reputation and even makes for mod/admin appointments in the long run. If we are lucky if these people amount to 5% of the overall population.

-Active users are not the same as contributing users, but they are aware of the responsibilities and rights they were given, educate themselves and are well well-aware of limitation and possibilities of the system. In our equation these would be people who are prone to use a rating system that utilizes the normal distribution (1-10, with most titles being in the 4-6 range), are aware that it doesn't count as a recommendation just because both anime/manga feature a boy and a girl and try to see faults as well as positives. 10-15% of the maximum population.

-Lastly, the passive users. They are only vaguely aware of both rights and responsibilities, rely mostly on emotion in choosing or rating and could care less about the fundamental norms behind the current system as long as it somehow works and they can make a living in it. These are thze guys on MAL that mostly use the 6/7-10 rating scale, rate emotionally, make rec/reviews that ignore the guidelines, etc. They make up 80-85% of the maximum population. And do you know what a fellow friend who studies politics calls these people? Sheeps.

This is a pretty common distinction in certain circles who work on political, cultural campaigns and fundraising; however, we are forgetting the specifics of MAL - or rather: the internet. The main differencce here is obvious: There are no formular limitations that create distinctions between these groups like party memberships, elections, jobs with a higher responsibility, etc. so the people who usually don't mix that much irl come very close online. And here we have our problem:
MAL relies on the fact that people who are responsible for the site KNOW and CARE enough about their hobby to use the features as they are intended. This is NOT the case with the bulk of the users, though. There s no interest on their side in tropes, genres, demographic definitions, history of said definitions, reliance on the rating system, etc. so they don't feel obligated to care and misuse these system. Yet, the disregard of the masses is the cause of the frustration of both "elitists" (active/contributing users) and source of even more disregard of the other, passive users.

Let's be honest:
How often did you see recommendations like "Both have a main girl and boy as main characters"?
How often have you seen people crate very generic recommendation threads like "I want an anime with overpowered MC" in the specific subforum?
And how often have you seen people saying "Well, I make these rec threads because MAL is not evry helpful with their features/rating"?
Or "Meh, ratings don't matter" as well as "Give me something I can rate 10/10"?
Or "MAL forums/ratings are useless anyway, so i just rate on my own"?

Probably once or twice everyday since you started reading this forum, right? The reason for that is simple: The passive users that in other contructs never get into a position where they can actually influence things (due to not being interested/active enough) are encouraged by the very open MAL approach to participate in any kind of feature that requires knowledge, activity and interest. Of course, this is nice and it sometimes leads to people becoming more aware; but that is not true for most users. They write very personal, often impractical reviews/recs without considering the other side, they don't care about correct genre definitions and they are the vast mayority. And that is a problem for one simple reason:
Irresponsibility and short-sightedness.
By writing these recs/reviews they actively damage the credibility of said feature because it reduces the quality of the community-dependant features.
By rating overly emotions they damage the credibility of the ratings as well as their own perception of the community they can't trust because "they hype anything and always tell me stuff that isn't true".
The very thing they do is the thing that drives their negative opinion on certain elements of this site, prompting them to continue their selfish, short-sighted and ignorant course.
And being in the mayority and always self-assuring and confirming their emotional, enjoyment-based course of action they also never realize the faults of their in-box thinking and drive the minority - who are the only ones who actually care about the quality of the site - into a corner of frustration, leading them to despair, surrender or adandonement.

Sounds like a dire situation, right? So, how can we resolve this? Imho the solution for this problem is mostly just the realization of one simple fact:
YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE.
Your ratings, reviews, recs, posts and behaviour effect the community and with MAL being very community dependant you most of the time have only one to fault if you think you can't trust this site: YOURSELF.
If you don't know what a Shounen is or what a trope/genre is, DO NOT MAKE A REC saying they are "similar Shounenz".
If you don't know how to write a review, DO NOT MAKE A REVIEW.
If you think MAL forums are a waste of time and a hoard of stupidity, don't write one liners in discussions simialr to "I like it xD", "IDK, lol" and posts that are people can't identify because of your bad grammar.
If you don't want to get generic, unhelpful advice, make sure to both report unhelpful advice and educate yourself so that the advice you cna give is helpful and spot on.
In short, stop being a sheep. Become at least an active user. It was my understanding that most people irl don't want to be sheep, they want to be proactive in regards to their life and how they live it. They want to make conscious choices. They want to actively pursue the things they love. Yet, when it comes to entertainment it seems markets and consumer culture has triummphed over these aspects as a lot of people just want to consume fiction and don't really care about it. But that is careless, because you should always care about your hobbies and consumer behaviour. After all, they shape our perception and it is only through fiction that we discover new sides of ourselves everyday.
And as anime/manga lovers isn't that what it's all about?

So basically, try to care about the things you love. After all, you can't even be sure why or even if you love the things you consume otherwise. And if you don't want to change: Don't complain about it because you don't have the right to do so after you are responsible for the current state of affairs.

PS: Don't try to wriggle your way out of this by saying "somebody else will do it" because nearly everyone thinks that as well and nothing ever gets done in this case.

PPS: I am aware that I won't get many answers out of this because it is a sad fact that passive members just don't care enough to bother reading such a long post.
Modified by Nidhoeggr, Jun 19, 2013 4:48 AM
Stone Ocean adaption when?
 
Jun 19, 2013 3:57 AM

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katsucats said:
If it's not the only one that exists, then...

katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Same question... LOL

If you're going to keep claiming that there's some kind of criteria besides how much you enjoy an anime when it comes to rating anime that you like from 1-10, because I can think of none (unless you abuse the system and rate it according to how many colors you can spot, or some random criteria...).

Me saying there's other kinds of criteria =/= me saying that I use or agree with other kinds of criteria. Come on, what is the point at discussing this. You can't think of one? I see them being constantly brought in here.

On Nidhoeggr's post, I'll probably read the whole more carefully later, but right now:

Nidhoeggr said:
-Lastly, the passive users. They are only vaguely aware of both rights and responsibilities, rely mostly on emotion in choosing or rating and could care less about the fundamental norms behind the current system as long as it somehow works and they can make a living in it. These are thze guys on MAL that mostly use the 6/7-10 rating scale, rate emotionally, make rec/reviews that ignore the guidelines, etc. They make up 80-85% of the maximum population. And do you know what a fellow friend who studies politics calls these people? Sheeps.

wait what
Modified by jal90, Jun 19, 2013 4:11 AM
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:11 AM

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jal90 said:
katsucats said:
If it's not the only one that exists, then...

katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher? What's the rationale in that? Do you believe in objective ratings, such that an anime somehow deserves higher score for having certain qualities that do nothing to increase your enjoyment?
Same question... LOL

If you're going to keep claiming that there's some kind of criteria besides how much you enjoy an anime when it comes to rating anime that you like from 1-10, because I can think of none (unless you abuse the system and rate it according to how many colors you can spot, or some random criteria...).
Me saying there's other kinds of criteria =/= me saying that I use or agree with other kinds of criteria. Come on, what is the point at discussing this. You can't think of one? I see them being constantly brought in here.
I don't understand why you bothered to assert this, yet you absolutely refuse to give even one example. You did say that you, yourself, use some other criteria. Here:
jal90 said:
And yep, I like some anime that I've rated lower than some I've rated higher. For instance, I like my 8s :P
If you like an anime that you rated an 8 more than an anime that you rated a 10, then maybe you'd like to explain how that works or you're just abusing the system.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:13 AM

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jal90 said:

On Nidhoeggr's post, I'll probably read the whole more carefully later, but right now:

Nidhoeggr said:
-Lastly, the passive users. They are only vaguely aware of both rights and responsibilities, rely mostly on emotion in choosing or rating and could care less about the fundamental norms behind the current system as long as it somehow works and they can make a living in it. These are thze guys on MAL that mostly use the 6/7-10 rating scale, rate emotionally, make rec/reviews that ignore the guidelines, etc. They make up 80-85% of the maximum population. And do you know what a fellow friend who studies politics calls these people? Sheeps.

wait what


Thanks, I appreciate it.
And are you suprised that we have guidelines? I bet 90% of the people are... because they never bother to read them although they are linked when you try to create a review/rec :/
Or do you mean the reason why they are called sheeps? Simple: Because they ignore the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings and are therefore easy to manipulate if you serve them something that caters to their emotions. For example: People who ignore the many disadvantages the policies a certain parties' program would have and still vote for them because the main candidate is crying on TV, somewhat charismatic and donates money to poor children. Or just vote a party because they always voted for that party and "emotionally identify" with a fake image.

katsucats said:
If you like an anime that you rated an 8 more than an anime that you rated a 10, then maybe you'd like to explain how that works or you're just abusing the system.


You see, when it comes to favourites I don't care about my ratings because they are as subjective as it can get and totally based on my enjoyment. I can rate a series objectively as a 7 and still prefer it to stuff Monster because I just like it more. The problem arises when people can't differenciate between personal enjoyment, preferences and quality.

If your system is based on pure enjoyment though, a 10 should always be more favoured than an 8.
Modified by Nidhoeggr, Jun 19, 2013 4:28 AM
Stone Ocean adaption when?
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:18 AM

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katsucats said:
I don't understand why you bothered to assert this, yet you absolutely refuse to give even one example. You did say that you, yourself, use some other criteria.

I didn't because I thought it was obvious, since the main template on MAL reviews uses enjoyment as a separated category from art, writing, characters and sound and many users take this and give the "enjoyment factor" a rating that doesn't correspond with the final rating.

katsucats said:
Here:
jal90 said:
And yep, I like some anime that I've rated lower than some I've rated higher. For instance, I like my 8s :P
If you like an anime that you rated an 8 more than an anime that you rated a 10, then maybe you'd like to explain how that works or you're just abusing the system.

God damn katsu, do I have to explain my bad jokes.

You said:

katsucats said:
So you like some anime that you've rated lower than some that you you've rated higher?

Which is pretty much read as: you like anime you rated lower than others? And the question obviously is yes, I like my 10s, but I also like my 8s.

The phrase had a "better" lost in transcription, therefore what I was mocking.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:21 AM

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jal90 said:
katsucats said:
I don't understand why you bothered to assert this, yet you absolutely refuse to give even one example. You did say that you, yourself, use some other criteria.
I didn't because I thought it was obvious, since the main template on MAL reviews uses enjoyment as a separated category from art, writing, characters and sound and many users take this and give the "enjoyment factor" a rating that doesn't correspond with the final rating.
Well then this "main template" is exactly what's wrong here. Enjoyment is derived from art, writing, characters, and sound. Enjoyment is not a separate category, which is why saying you like something because you enjoyed is tautological. What did you enjoy about it? The answer lies in the art, writing, characters, and sound. You don't say, "I like it because I enjoyed it." That's the most pointless statement ever.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:27 AM

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Nidhoeggr said:
The problem arises when people can't differenciate between personal enjoyment, preferences and quality.
You enjoy something because of some quality in the anime. The problem is not that people can't differentiate between enjoyment and quality; the problem is when people act as if enjoyment isn't predicated on quality. Saying that an anime has bad quality but you still enjoyed it is saying that you enjoyed anime that you thought was crap ("quality" is subjective). It begs the question, "Well, what did you like about it?" We get into circular reasoning when your response is, "I like it because I like it...... even though it's crap."

It makes you cognitively dissonant. Contradictory.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:29 AM

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katsucats said:
jal90 said:
katsucats said:
I don't understand why you bothered to assert this, yet you absolutely refuse to give even one example. You did say that you, yourself, use some other criteria.
I didn't because I thought it was obvious, since the main template on MAL reviews uses enjoyment as a separated category from art, writing, characters and sound and many users take this and give the "enjoyment factor" a rating that doesn't correspond with the final rating.
Well then this "main template" is exactly what's wrong here. Enjoyment is derived from art, writing, characters, and sound. Enjoyment is not a separate category, which is why saying you like something because you enjoyed is tautological. What did you enjoy about it? The answer lies in the art, writing, characters, and sound. You don't say, "I like it because I enjoyed it." That's the most pointless statement ever.

But rating does not necessarily measure how much you like/enjoy something. It will for you, me and lots of people, but the fact there exist other ways of ranking stuff working right now in MAL makes this relation not as inequivocal as you are making it look. And yep, the template is wrong, but that's beyond my point: people use it.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:30 AM

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katsucats said:
Nidhoeggr said:
The problem arises when people can't differenciate between personal enjoyment, preferences and quality.
You enjoy something because of some quality in the anime. The problem is not that people can't differentiate between enjoyment and quality; the problem is when people act as if enjoyment isn't predicated on quality. Saying that an anime has bad quality but you still enjoyed it is saying that you enjoyed anime that you thought was crap ("quality" is subjective). It begs the question, "Well, what did you like about it?" We get into circular reasoning when your response is, "I like it because I like it...... even though it's crap."

It makes you cognitively dissonant. Contradictory.


Well, I like some anime because they are so bad that I derive immense enjoyment from seeing how badly they are made (enjoying the "lack of quality" so to speak). I would even consider it a quality trait if it is done on purpose as a parody of sorts.
And yes, it is a bit contradictory to seperate your always critical thinking the very moment it comes to your favourites. But that is normal for humans and I'd love to see a human that stays critical all the time.
However, the main difference is that you KNOW you didn't base your favourites on their quality, but on their enjoyment. Which imho implies you have two kinds of favourites: The favourites that are the result of your objectified rating system and the favourites you choose to base on nothing but your own enjoyment.

You never had fun with such trash masterpieces like "Two-Headed Shark Attack", right? Everyone knows it's a totally crappy movie and they would NEVER rate it 5/5 on a movie rating site, but that doesn't stop people from saying it is their favourite movie because.. well, they like it for it is: A totally bad movie that is amazingly fun to watch because you can make fun of the bad quality.
Modified by Nidhoeggr, Jun 19, 2013 4:35 AM
Stone Ocean adaption when?
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:40 AM

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Nidhoeggr said:
Thanks, I appreciate it.
And are you suprised that we have guidelines? I bet 90% of the people are... because they never bother to read them although they are linked when you try to create a review/rec :/
Or do you mean the reason why they are called sheeps? Simple: Because they ignore the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings and are therefore easy to manipulate if you serve them something that caters to their emotions. For example: People who ignore the many disadvantages the policies a certain parties' program would have and still vote for them because the main candidate is crying on TV, somewhat charismatic and donates money to poor children. Or just vote a party because they always voted for that party and "emotionally identify" with a fake image.

Following the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings is what makes them "sheep" if anything, not the contrary. Sheeps are defined as those that go by the rule of majority, following the path that is considered the official.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:41 AM

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jal90 said:
Nidhoeggr said:
Thanks, I appreciate it.
And are you suprised that we have guidelines? I bet 90% of the people are... because they never bother to read them although they are linked when you try to create a review/rec :/
Or do you mean the reason why they are called sheeps? Simple: Because they ignore the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings and are therefore easy to manipulate if you serve them something that caters to their emotions. For example: People who ignore the many disadvantages the policies a certain parties' program would have and still vote for them because the main candidate is crying on TV, somewhat charismatic and donates money to poor children. Or just vote a party because they always voted for that party and "emotionally identify" with a fake image.

Following the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings is what makes them "sheep" if anything, not the contrary. Sheeps are defined as those that go by the rule of majority, following the path that is considered the official.


Nah, the understanding of the fundamentals is the foundation that allows us to manipulate it. It is the very first step to becoming an active member that actually changes it. Do you think the 5% actually follow all standards set by society? No, they SHAPE the standards to their own liking the other 95% have to abide to because they understand how they can shape them and which positions are neccessary for that.

Modified by Nidhoeggr, Jun 19, 2013 4:46 AM
Stone Ocean adaption when?
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:43 AM

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Nidhoeggr said:
However, the main difference is that you KNOW you didn't base your favourites on their quality, but on their enjoyment. Which imho implies you have two kinds of favourites: The favourites that are the result of your objectified rating system and the favourites you choose to base on nothing but your own enjoyment.

You never had fun with such trash masterpieces like "Two-Headed Shark Attack", right? Everyone knows it's a totally crappy movie and they would NEVER rate it 5/5 on a movie rating site, but that doesn't stop people from saying it is their favourite movie because.. well, they like it for it is: A totally bad movie that is amazingly fun to watch because you can make fun of the bad quality.
As far as I'm concerned, if you enjoyed a "bad" series, then that's because there are some good qualities in it that outweighed the bad ones that you, for some reason, consciously focus on.

All ratings are subjective, but there are two kinds of subjective properties we could assign: properties of the show, and properties of the viewer. Enjoyment is a property of the viewer and says absolutely nothing about the show. Enjoyment is, however, derived from properties of the show. If you like a show, then you don't think it is crap, or you aren't being honest with yourself.

jal90 said:
And yep, the template is wrong, but that's beyond my point: people use it.
And people who use that template have no idea what the hell they're actually doing. It's safe to say that they don't actually know what they like in anime that they like based on "enjoyment factor".

I just remembered I have this neat quote saved here:
"Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."
-JFK
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
THE CHAT CLUB.
 
Jun 19, 2013 4:55 AM

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Nidhoeggr said:
jal90 said:
Nidhoeggr said:
Thanks, I appreciate it.
And are you suprised that we have guidelines? I bet 90% of the people are... because they never bother to read them although they are linked when you try to create a review/rec :/
Or do you mean the reason why they are called sheeps? Simple: Because they ignore the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings and are therefore easy to manipulate if you serve them something that caters to their emotions. For example: People who ignore the many disadvantages the policies a certain parties' program would have and still vote for them because the main candidate is crying on TV, somewhat charismatic and donates money to poor children. Or just vote a party because they always voted for that party and "emotionally identify" with a fake image.

Following the fundamental norms and reasonings behind societies' workings is what makes them "sheep" if anything, not the contrary. Sheeps are defined as those that go by the rule of majority, following the path that is considered the official.


Nah, the understanding of the fundamentals is the foundation that allows us to manipulate it. It is the very first step to becoming an active member that actually changes it. Do you think the 5% actually follow all standards set by society? No, they SHAPE the standards to their own liking the other 95% have to abide to because they understand how they can shape them and which positions are neccessary for that.


And what tells you that I (who for instance don't use the review guidelines, because of reasons that katsucats has covered pretty well in our discussion) don't understand its fundaments? You are simplifying things a lot in here. Some people just don't care, but some people do and reject this way of treating their reviews/recs or wording their opinions, therefore building their own and independent system.
 
Jun 19, 2013 5:02 AM

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As I said, you can be an active/contributing in other ways but that doesn't change the fact that having too many different system undermine the overall acceptance of the main system, prompting secessions which ultimate only creates conflicts (I vaguely remember you being Spain, so you should be familiar with this).

In the end, the question is highly philosophical and dependant on your view of what constitutes a good (order) system and it goes a bit further and way more offtopic than what I wanted to show with my idneed somewhat simplified allegory.

In any case, always rejecting most norms and only caring your own system is self-centered and egoistic.

katsucats said:
As far as I'm concerned, if you enjoyed a "bad" series, then that's because there are some good qualities in it that outweighed the bad ones that you, for some reason, consciously focus on.

All ratings are subjective, but there are two kinds of subjective properties we could assign: properties of the show, and properties of the viewer. Enjoyment is a property of the viewer and says absolutely nothing about the show. Enjoyment is, however, derived from properties of the show. If you like a show, then you don't think it is crap, or you aren't being honest with yourself.


The thing is, there are no good properties about that particular movie except that it you can find it funny because of how it is.
Of course, I could rate it 8/10 or so as a comedy then, but it was not intended to be a comedy (Well, the Asyluma re know for making their movies trashy on purpose so I guess it was done on purpose here. But that doesn't change the fact that people enjoy movies who are badly done without purpose, like The Room).
I think honestly can be found in admitting that humans itself are dichotomous creatures that are able to blend out facets they subconsciously accept.
Modified by Nidhoeggr, Jun 19, 2013 5:12 AM
Stone Ocean adaption when?
 
Jun 19, 2013 5:19 AM

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Before u will start to categorize humans at better and worse I must aknowledge u something. How many times, in how many chat and how many forums I already repeated it?
Stop atack noobs (ur passive ppl) if u could check age of users sometime you would know there is no any passive users problem, there is only problem of young users which usualy dont follow guidelines and rules. But the hell what about that? You cant teach 2 years old kid math, they will grow and next will come, we cant do anything about that.

About rating 6-10 for sure u must be humanist, humansts usualy dont know so much about economy and marketing I say u that things that would have overall rating lower than 6 would not get to market. How do u think anime menager prefer to create "good" product for u that would not sell very well or he will try to satisfy our enjoyement?
But still under word of enjoyement we can hide everything so stop telling bullshits ppl cant explain what do they liked/dont, maybe u meet kids too often at forum?

After finishing anime I remind those words and I know how I will qualify something:
10-Masterpiece, 9-Great, 8-Very good, 7-Good, 6-Fine...
 
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