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Poll: Toaru Kagaku no Railgun S Episode 10 Discussion


#1
Jun 14, 2013 7:52 AM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
----------------------------------------
Ah shit, looks like Frenda screwed up by leaving the bombs behind. Teehee


Meltdowner vs. Railgun huh? I was looking forward to this.
Nice shield btw.

I love Mugino's personality. Damn, nice kick.
Great episode imo. I loved the OST and ha, Mugino's pride. The fight might be over this time but Level 6 Shift continues huh. I'm looking forward to what's going to happen next XD

TOUMA
Tehehehehe. Oh Fre nda.
 
#2
Jun 14, 2013 7:52 AM

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lol~ she forgot to clean up those dolls/bombs, and Misaka used them. Was kind of interesting fight. End? lol @ Touma!! I think I know what he's going to say at the end... "Fukou da!"
Modified by tsubasalover, Jun 14, 2013 8:02 AM
I Two Syaorans from Tsubasa RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE and TRC!!!
 
#3
Jun 14, 2013 7:55 AM

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Lol, Frenda..be careful of your bombs next time ;o
 
#4
Jun 14, 2013 7:56 AM
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Lol lol. Frenda <3

Mugino crazy bitch. I was sure that Misaka wouldn't let her die but i didn't expect her to deny her help lol. Touma at the end!!!!! <3

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.
 
#5
Jun 14, 2013 8:05 AM

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Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.
(Also known on other places as Hiss13)

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#6
Jun 14, 2013 8:11 AM

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nice episode...

the clash of the 2 level 5 epsers is awesome...

as usual Mugino is so Damn Badass in this episode...

lol at Frenda leaving her bombs in the facility...

at last Touman shows up...

next week it will be Touman and Misaka episode...

can't wait for it...

xD
 
#7
Jun 14, 2013 9:07 AM
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CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....
 
#8
Jun 14, 2013 9:18 AM

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Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.
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#9
Jun 14, 2013 9:35 AM

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Hoho, of all people, it was Frenda who had to say that to Takitsubo.
Good one. Setting things up more for Index III.

JC Staff delivers once again. That fight was just awesome. From Silicon Burn to the flying dolls to Misaka blocking Mugino's beams. Bravo JC Staff.
Mugino being batshit is just the way I like it. And the angles we're getting of her at different scenes are pretty good. Highlighting how hot she is even if she's going nuts.
Though I kinda wonder how the heck did Fre nda set up those explosive tapes, even under that steel bridge. Ah well, put it up there with her hammerspace skirt.

And here he is finally. The TouMAN. He's been busy fishing this season but he's here now. And now the Sisters arc on Index begins.
This'll probably convince people that Railgun and Index should be viewed together and it's not a standalone from the parent story. I'd like to see the arguments of those who say otherwise.

Great episode overall.
 
Jun 14, 2013 10:28 AM

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CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.

I believe that the fight would be decided on the first clean hit.Unless Mugino finds a way to control Meltdowner in more ways/easily.
Modified by ssjokg, Jun 14, 2013 11:13 AM
 
Jun 14, 2013 11:11 AM

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ssjokg said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.

I believe that the fight would be decided on the first clean hit.Unless Mugino a way to control Meltdowner in more ways/easily.


That is true that the fight would be decided by the first clean hit. However, it is obvious that Mikoto would be unable to get a clean hit. Then the fight boils down to whether Mugino can get a clean hit. That is where I am absolutely certain she can. Remember, Mugino can control 4 Meltdowner attacks at once. Include Silicon Burn and we've got an endless barrage of attacks from Mugino and I doubt that Mikoto would be able to redirect all of those attacks.
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All hail the adorable chess master!
 
Jun 14, 2013 11:27 AM
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it was a great episode wiith the fight against meltdowner andcan somone tell me who is the new misaka clone at the end of the preview?
 
Jun 14, 2013 11:35 AM

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elior1 said:
it was a great episode wiith the fight against meltdowner andcan somone tell me who is the new misaka clone at the end of the preview?


That one is Misaka
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Jun 14, 2013 11:36 AM

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elior1 said:
it was a great episode wiith the fight against meltdowner andcan somone tell me who is the new misaka clone at the end of the preview?

Fuck ninja'd


Watching the Raw:
Rikou:"I'm fine... This is the only place where I belong, after all..." T_T
HE is SO fucking late.

T_T

Mugino's voice s perfect in this ep.
Modified by ssjokg, Jun 14, 2013 11:59 AM
 
Jun 14, 2013 12:37 PM

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Heh, Frenda inadvertently gave Misaka the advantage leaving her mess (bombs) behind.
 
Jun 14, 2013 3:05 PM
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CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.


A fight does not necessarily have to be fair. If you cannot use your terrain as an advantage and purely rely on your power, you are weak and must train yourself more professionally next time. Misaka totally outwitted Mugino in this round. A fight is not always only about raw power. It's about wit as well.

Also the level of control and stability of Mugino's power is, at this point in the series, not ideal, compared to the level of control Accelerator shows.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
Jun 14, 2013 3:20 PM

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wakka9ca said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.


A fight does not necessarily have to be fair. If you cannot use your terrain as an advantage and purely rely on your power, you are weak and must train yourself more professionally next time. Misaka totally outwitted Mugino in this round. A fight is not always only about raw power. It's about wit as well.

Also the level of control and stability of Mugino's power is, at this point in the series, not ideal, compared to the level of control Accelerator shows.

Accelerator and #2 compared to the rest are like Stephen Hawking vs a grade schooler in the level of their calculations.And Accelerator still
.
Comparing anyone to them is unfair.
Modified by ssjokg, Jun 14, 2013 3:48 PM
 
Jun 14, 2013 3:43 PM

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wakka9ca said:

A fight does not necessarily have to be fair. If you cannot use your terrain as an advantage and purely rely on your power, you are weak and must train yourself more professionally next time. Misaka totally outwitted Mugino in this round. A fight is not always only about raw power. It's about wit as well.

Also the level of control and stability of Mugino's power is, at this point in the series, not ideal, compared to the level of control Accelerator shows.


Here is where I will reiterate. We are discussing whether Mikoto or Mugino would win in a fair fight. You are right that manipulation of the terrain and wit are absolutely necessary in combat. However, by fair fight, I mean straight up Mugino and Mikoto at full power. That means no Frenda. That means none of Frenda's rigged traps. That also means Mikoto would be at full power.
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Jun 14, 2013 3:46 PM

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I agree with wakka9ca...Mikoto outsmarted Mugino. Even though Mugino had the upper hand, she was too confident, lowered her guard, and as a result was tricked defeated by an exhausted Mikoto.
Also, it's true true that Mugino can divert Mikoto's lighting but Mikoto can do the same with Mugino's Meltdowner.
I still think Mugino is BA, she's completely awesome .... can't get over her voice acting, it suits her so well.

Frenda was hilarious too.

At last, Touma makes his appearance. Can't wait to see the next episode!!
"We should be more proud of NEETs! Love the country that strives to produce NEETs, for world peace, we must stand up! We must find more non NEET-in-waiting elites, learn from each other , form a new Japanese Party, and bravely challenge the evil! Grow, NEETs! Grow like blazing fire! NEETs!”
 
Jun 14, 2013 4:26 PM
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CreationBreaker said:
wakka9ca said:

A fight does not necessarily have to be fair. If you cannot use your terrain as an advantage and purely rely on your power, you are weak and must train yourself more professionally next time. Misaka totally outwitted Mugino in this round. A fight is not always only about raw power. It's about wit as well.

Also the level of control and stability of Mugino's power is, at this point in the series, not ideal, compared to the level of control Accelerator shows.


Here is where I will reiterate. We are discussing whether Mikoto or Mugino would win in a fair fight. You are right that manipulation of the terrain and wit are absolutely necessary in combat. However, by fair fight, I mean straight up Mugino and Mikoto at full power. That means no Frenda. That means none of Frenda's rigged traps. That also means Mikoto would be at full power.


It's hard to define what is really a fair fight. Would a perfectly fair fight for you would be the two sitting down and see which one can produce the more energy?
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
Jun 14, 2013 4:47 PM

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Joseito1875 said:
I agree with wakka9ca...Mikoto outsmarted Mugino. Even though Mugino had the upper hand, she was too confident, lowered her guard, and as a result was tricked defeated by an exhausted Mikoto.
Also, it's true true that Mugino can divert Mikoto's lighting but Mikoto can do the same with Mugino's Meltdowner.


I'm not trying to say anything about this fight in this episode. Mikoto outsmarted Mugino, who was far too proud and arrogant. I know that.
While it's true Mikoto can redirect a single attack from Mugino, I have my doubts that Mikoto would be able to redirect a large quantity (a la Silicon Burn).

wakka9ca said:

Here is where I will reiterate. We are discussing whether Mikoto or Mugino would win in a fair fight. You are right that manipulation of the terrain and wit are absolutely necessary in combat. However, by fair fight, I mean straight up Mugino and Mikoto at full power. That means no Frenda. That means none of Frenda's rigged traps. That also means Mikoto would be at full power.


It's hard to define what is really a fair fight. Would a perfectly fair fight for you would be the two sitting down and see which one can produce the more energy?


I thought I was clear. Apparently, I wasn't. A fair fight between the two of them would be a 1v1 where both start at full power...no conditions prepared by either side in advance (no fuse lines or explosive dolls) and no intervention from anyone else. In other words, the entire fight for the past three episodes by this definition is not fair. However, had Mikoto encountered Mugino alone, even in this factory, that would be a fair fight.
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Jun 14, 2013 4:49 PM
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CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.


Then why Mugino is considered 4th strogest level 5, and Mikoto is 3rd strongest ?
 
Jun 14, 2013 4:57 PM

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thepath said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:
CreationBreaker said:
Cloudy-Sky said:

I think it's pretty much clear though that if they both fought at their full potential Mugino would lose.


Really? Explain because I still stand by my position that the opposite is true.


Eh... I hope you don't expect a scientific explanation but yeah. I reached that conclusion from the fact that Mugino managed to lose despite the fact that Misaka was barely able to stand. I know very well that it was cause of Frenda forgoten bombs but still. She was at full power vs a Misaka that could barely walk. That is all....


It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.


Then why Mugino is considered 4th strogest level 5, and Mikoto is 3rd strongest ?


That's because the ranks have little to do with strength. Otherwise, Misaki would be further down the list and #7 would be further up the list. The rankings have more to do with their relevance to AC's research. Accelerator is #1 because he can attain Level 6. Number 2 is number 2 for spoiler reasons. Number 3 is number 3 because of the Misaka Network and so forth.
Modified by Ashen_Miko, Jun 14, 2013 5:00 PM
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Jun 14, 2013 5:00 PM

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And with that, we have caught up with the events of the index 1 timeline.

Also, power levels are determined by mental calculation speed as well. Not just on sheer power and force. That's why the difference between Railgun and Meltdowner is evident in this episode. Though the gap can be arguably small
 
Jun 14, 2013 5:05 PM
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CreationBreaker said:

wakka9ca said:

CreationBreaker said:

Here is where I will reiterate. We are discussing whether Mikoto or Mugino would win in a fair fight. You are right that manipulation of the terrain and wit are absolutely necessary in combat. However, by fair fight, I mean straight up Mugino and Mikoto at full power. That means no Frenda. That means none of Frenda's rigged traps. That also means Mikoto would be at full power.


It's hard to define what is really a fair fight. Would a perfectly fair fight for you would be the two sitting down and see which one can produce the more energy?


I thought I was clear. Apparently, I wasn't. A fair fight between the two of them would be a 1v1 where both start at full power...no conditions prepared by either side in advance (no fuse lines or explosive dolls) and no intervention from anyone else. In other words, the entire fight for the past three episodes by this definition is not fair. However, had Mikoto encountered Mugino alone, even in this factory, that would be a fair fight.


But you see this is the problem. The nature of powers between two espers (not restricted to Railgun vs. Meltdowner) is different. The intensity of their powers is not even the same so there is no such thing as "fair" fight. One would be more advantageous in one environment than the other. Meltdowner is clearly disadvantaged in a closed space such as a factory compared to Railgun for instance. Railgun is disadvantaged in a direct fight compared to Mugino. The very nature of the way they use their power does not allow any fair fight. The very fighting STYLE of Railgun is different from Mugino and Accelerator. It's useless talking about "what ifs". There is no meaning behind a "fair" fight if its conditions are unlikely to happen in reality.

I don't understand this obsession with "fair" fight. It's not like one of them is threatening to kill the others family if they don't yield...

The fair fight you are describing is practically unachievable and useless. You might have more success just simply directly quantify the raw energy they can produce. In that case Mugino clearly wins. Also, that would be a "fair" but no longer a fight...
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
Jun 14, 2013 5:07 PM

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Kazejimonji said:
And with that, we have caught up with the events of the index 1 timeline.

I can't wait to see the Railgun Purists begin start dropping Railgun S because of Touma's role in the arc.

Kazejimonji said:

Also, power levels are determined by mental calculation speed as well. Not just on sheer power and force. That's why the difference between Railgun and Meltdowner is evident in this episode. Though the gap can be arguably small


There is also the calculation speed issue, I agree. However, I don't think that it is as big a factor as relevance to research. However, it is still an important factor.

wakka9ca said:
CreationBreaker said:

wakka9ca said:

CreationBreaker said:

Here is where I will reiterate. We are discussing whether Mikoto or Mugino would win in a fair fight. You are right that manipulation of the terrain and wit are absolutely necessary in combat. However, by fair fight, I mean straight up Mugino and Mikoto at full power. That means no Frenda. That means none of Frenda's rigged traps. That also means Mikoto would be at full power.


It's hard to define what is really a fair fight. Would a perfectly fair fight for you would be the two sitting down and see which one can produce the more energy?


I thought I was clear. Apparently, I wasn't. A fair fight between the two of them would be a 1v1 where both start at full power...no conditions prepared by either side in advance (no fuse lines or explosive dolls) and no intervention from anyone else. In other words, the entire fight for the past three episodes by this definition is not fair. However, had Mikoto encountered Mugino alone, even in this factory, that would be a fair fight.


But you see this is the problem. The nature of powers between two espers (not restricted to Railgun vs. Meltdowner) is different. The intensity of their powers is not even the same so there is no such thing as "fair" fight. One would be more advantageous in one environment than the other. Meltdowner is clearly disadvantaged in a closed space such as a factory compared to Railgun for instance. Railgun is disadvantaged in a direct fight compared to Mugino. The very nature of the way they use their power does not allow any fair fight. The very fighting STYLE of Railgun is different from Mugino and Accelerator. It's useless talking about "what ifs". There is no meaning behind a "fair" fight if its conditions are unlikely to happen in reality.

I don't understand this obsession with "fair" fight. It's not like one of them is threatening to kill the others family if they don't yield...

The fair fight you are describing is practically unachievable and useless. You might have more success just simply directly quantify the raw energy they can produce. In that case Mugino clearly wins. Also, that would be a "fair" but no longer a fight...


Finally, something I can agree with you on. You're right in the fact that Mikoto has a very distinct fighting style when compared to Mugino or Accelerator. You're also right that depending on the battlefield that a battle between them would turn out differently.

My "obsession with fair fights" is because someone earlier claimed that Mikoto would obviously beat Mugino if she was at full power because he was improperly powerscaling [I know it's OBD terminology but I couldn't find a better word for it]. I was just making the point that Mikoto would not have beaten Mugino without Fre|nda's traps even if she was at full power.
Modified by Ashen_Miko, Jun 14, 2013 5:15 PM
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All hail the adorable chess master!
 
Jun 14, 2013 5:18 PM

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CreationBreaker said:
Kazejimonji said:
And with that, we have caught up with the events of the index 1 timeline.

I can't wait to see the Railgun Purists begin start dropping Railgun S because of Touma's role in the arc.

Kazejimonji said:

Also, power levels are determined by mental calculation speed as well. Not just on sheer power and force. That's why the difference between Railgun and Meltdowner is evident in this episode. Though the gap can be arguably small


There is also the calculation speed issue, I agree. However, I don't think that it is as big a factor as relevance to research. However, it is still an important factor.


Ahaha! Agreed.

And the reason why I brought it up is because of the mental capacity of espers: strategy, efficiency, resolution and emotional stability plays a vital role on how battles are won and how they SURVIVE in that respect. And that is why Railgun is ranked 3rd. (Along with the other factors as well!) ^_^
Modified by IchiroEX, Jun 14, 2013 5:22 PM
 
Jun 14, 2013 5:33 PM
Kanade♥

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TOUMAAAAAAAA
 
Jun 14, 2013 6:22 PM

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Doko ni Hamazura~
 
Jun 14, 2013 6:46 PM

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ichirohiroku said:
Doko ni Hamazura~

I don't think they're gonna show him in Railgun since it was only a brief appearance.
 
Jun 14, 2013 6:47 PM

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I am seriously in love with this show <3
It was amazing to have a lot of Meltdowner this episode, she's amazing <3
Meltdowner's power and the Silicon Burn attack looks incredible.
So we finally get to see more Shirai Kuroko next episode!

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?
 
Jun 14, 2013 6:55 PM

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Tyrel said:
TOUMAAAAAAAA

I shall now give a summary of this episode

>Boom
>Crash
>Explosion
>Idea
>Falling
>TOUMMMMAAA
>The end



 
Jun 14, 2013 7:12 PM

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Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.
(Also known on other places as Hiss13)

All hail the adorable chess master!
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:13 PM

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CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.

Please tell me you're joking :(
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:15 PM

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Raito said:
CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.

Please tell me you're joking :(

I'm not joking. Sorry to burst your bubble.
(Also known on other places as Hiss13)

All hail the adorable chess master!
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:17 PM

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CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.

Oh and what a sweet reappearance it will be, along with the rest of the battle royale arc cast.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:18 PM

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CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:
CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.

Please tell me you're joking :(

I'm not joking. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Time to jump off a bridge
Alright, thanks for the response.
Now I have a reason to be excited for Index III.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:19 PM

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Aitemu <3

Mugino no oppai, ii ne.

Ningyo Tsukai Mikoto.

Mikoto getting pwn'd.

Reeruga- UGGHHHHHH

RUN B RUN.

Muginochan chou taipu.

TEEHEEE.

Nice prequel.
Isayama Hajime should be awarded The Manga with The Highest Inconsistencies of Characters' Appearances.
He keeps performing multiple plastic surgeries on those Shingeki No Kyojin characters in a SINGLE chapter.
Yes, I've read up to the latest chapter of Shingeki No Kyojin manga.
Forced myself to read through the kidsketching chapters after the anime's ended. At least from now on, I only have to go through the hell once a month.
Patiently awaiting SNK TV/movie/OVA anime-sequel.
The 2015 SNK live-action movie would probably suck.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:21 PM

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Ethelon said:
CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.

Oh and what a sweet reappearance it will be, along with the rest of the battle royale arc cast.


Yes, the Battle Royale arc will be amazing.

Raito said:
CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:
CreationBreaker said:
Raito said:

So, does anyone know around what episode Meltdowner will appear again?


No more Meltdowner in Railgun S. You're going to have to wait until Index III for her next appearance.

Please tell me you're joking :(

I'm not joking. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Time to jump off a bridge
Alright, thanks for the response.
Now I have a reason to be excited for Index III.


Yep. You could always read the Index LNs. Index II ends of at SS1 (right after volume 13). Mugino debuts in Volume 15. Bear in mind that the writing style takes a bit of time to get used to.
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Jun 14, 2013 7:23 PM

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CreationBreaker said:

Yep. You could always read the Index LNs. Index II ends of at SS1 (right after volume 13). Mugino debuts in Volume 15. Bear in mind that the writing style takes a bit of time to get used to.

As much as I'd probably love the novels, I know I still won't enjoy it as much as an anime adaptions. I'm a sucker for some fancy animation, colours, music and voice acting.
But since it seems more Level 5's will finally appear in Index III, it looks like it will be a lot better than its prequels.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:28 PM

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CreationBreaker said:

It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.


Reverse the roles.
If Meltdowner had been in Misaka's condition she would have been curbstomped by Misaka even if she had Frenda's dolls.

CreationBreaker said:

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.


Mugino could counter every attack Misaka made because she was tired. Misaka have more firepower than Mugino but in the state she was she had to do with a fraction of her power. She couldn't even muster enough strength to launch a railgun while we both know she's usually able to throw a few without sweating.

Misaka's ability is similar to Mugino's. She can deviate Mugino's beam and Mugino can deviate Misaka's electricity.
The thing is that the one with the most strength will bend the other's power the most. In their fight, Mugino had the advantage because Misaka was tired so bending her lighting was easy while Misaka had problem to bend her beam. Misaka in perfect form would have bent Mugino's beam easily and Mugino would have had a much harder time to bend Misaka's lighting.

You are overestimating Mugino's shield.
She couldn't even par an explosion at point blank (She had to deviated the doll instead) , had Misaka used the same iron sand move she did on Accelerator she would have been screwed.
Add to that the fact that she didn't even felt the doll coming to hit her on the head, she doesn't have the calculation ability to defend against such multi-directional attack.

CreationBreaker said:

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.


Mugino could counter Misaka's attack because Misaka's attack were weak, they weren't even a fraction of what they would have been if she was at full power. Compare a laser toy to Mugino's ability and it would be pretty much the difference between the Misaka from this episode and Misaka at full power. By the end of the episode all she could barely do more than a spark.

The rating system of academy city is accurate and is pretty much exponential when it comes to the level 5.
Number two isn't 'a bit weaker' than Accelerator, he's hell weaker. Misaka is hell weaker than number 2. Mugino is hell weaker than Misaka. Number 5 is hell weaker than Mugino.

Still if you like to base your argument on a fight where Misaka was near death against Mugino who was in perfect form, suit yourself.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:33 PM

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Touma sighting lol.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:33 PM

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Interesting episode. I've thoroughly enjoyed the season, hoping it continues to be good.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:35 PM

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Yeah...I REALLY hate that old cunt Mugino bitch.

And it's clear why Mikoto is ranked higher than her.

Mugino had to use 2 people to completely wear her down and even then she still couldn't beat her.

Mikoto is just faster, smarter, and stronger.

Fuck Mugino and her shitty power....

Anyways, another great episode, Mikoto never disappoints!
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:39 PM

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Tyrel said:
TOUMAAAAAAAA

Easily the ONLY down side to the episode.

I fucking hate his bullshit hax.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:45 PM

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FINALLY my touma sense is tingling! Pretty good fight i have to say, it seems the rest of the railgun cast has been left aside for quite some time now.

Awesome Sig by Lailide
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:48 PM

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greenmush said:
FINALLY my touma sense is tingling! Pretty good fight i have to say, it seems the rest of the railgun cast has been left aside for quite some time now.

They'll be back when this arc is over.

I guess the last 10 episodes or so will be "anime only" material, just like Railgun Season 1.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:48 PM

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Why are you in the preview? My reaction too.
yes Mugino, Misaka definitely made up for her weakness in combat.
For a second, I thought Mugino was wearing a wig and was about to take it off when she landed using the recoils of her meltdowner.
 
Jun 14, 2013 7:50 PM

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Scheherazade1007 said:
CreationBreaker said:

It was because she was tired and unable to use other moves like her Railgun that she used Frenda's traps in the first place. Obviously, had Frenda cleaned up her traps, Mugino would have curb-stomped Mikoto but that's not the point.


Reverse the roles.
If Meltdowner had been in Misaka's condition she would have been curbstomped by Misaka even if she had Frenda's dolls.


You're not making sense here. I have my doubts about even that. Mugino's power is still different from Mikoto's even though they both revolve around electrons. I highly doubt that Mugino would even need the dolls.

Scheherazade1007 said:
CreationBreaker said:

Mugino could counter each and every one of Mikoto's attacks effectively. Mugino can divert Mikoto's lightning, destroy any projectiles Mikoto would throw at her. Not to mention, a single attack from Meltdowner would destroy a Railgun. Couple that with the fact that Mugino can use 4 at once without losing control and Railgun is utterly useless. The iron sand attacks can be interfered with and destroyed by Meltdowner. If she tried what she did with the Iron Sand with Accelerator on Mugino, she would be able to dissipate the iron sand herself or use multiple Silicon Burn cards at once.


Mugino could counter every attack Misaka made because she was tired. Misaka have more firepower than Mugino but in the state she was she had to do with a fraction of her power. She couldn't even muster enough strength to launch a railgun while we both know she's usually able to throw a few without sweating.

Misaka's ability is similar to Mugino's. She can deviate Mugino's beam and Mugino can deviate Misaka's electricity.
The thing is that the one with the most strength will bend the other's power the most. In their fight, Mugino had the advantage because Misaka was tired so bending her lighting was easy while Misaka had problem to bend her beam. Misaka in perfect form would have bent Mugino's beam easily and Mugino would have had a much harder time to bend Misaka's lighting.

You are overestimating Mugino's shield.
She couldn't even par an explosion at point blank (She had to deviated the doll instead) , had Misaka used the same iron sand move she did on Accelerator she would have been screwed.
Add to that the fact that she didn't even felt the doll coming to hit her on the head, she doesn't have the calculation ability to defend against such multi-directional attack.


All of the first two paragraphs is being written under the false assumption that Mugino is weaker than Mikoto. Mugino is not weaker than Mikoto. It was stated in the Index LNs that Mugino is much more powerful than Mikoto but has requires far more control so that her powers don't backfire on her. This is why she only uses a max of 4 beams at once. Mugino would easily be able to beat even a multiple Railgun attack via Silicon Burn.

Had Mikoto used the iron sand attacks, Mugino could just fire Meltdowner Shots to divert Mikoto's calculation and cause the attack to go awry or even dissipate. I was never referring to her Meltdowner shield except for when Mikoto launches large metal masses via magnetism.


Scheherazade1007 said:
CreationBreaker said:

Basically, Mugino has a method to counter every one of Mikoto's tactics and in this episode, Mikoto only won because she used Fre|nda's traps. Without that extraneous factor, even in a fair fight, Mikoto would be unable to win against Mugino. At best, it would end up as a standstill or a battle of stamina. At worst, of course, Mugino would demolish Mikoto easily.


Mugino could counter Misaka's attack because Misaka's attack were weak, they weren't even a fraction of what they would have been if she was at full power. Compare a laser toy to Mugino's ability and it would be pretty much the difference between the Misaka from this episode and Misaka at full power. By the end of the episode all she could barely do more than a spark.


Again, you make it sound like she could only produce 10000 V or something when she fought Mugino. She had time to regain at least some of her energy before she fought Mugino 1v1. She may have been tired but she did gain some time to rest while picking up and re-adjusting all of Fre|nda's traps.

The fact that you are comparing a weakened Mugino to a laser toy means you don't understand Mugino's power. To that, I say...look up Meltdowner on the Index wiki.

Scheherazade1007 said:

The rating system of academy city is accurate and is pretty much exponential when it comes to the level 5.
Number two isn't 'a bit weaker' than Accelerator, he's hell weaker. Misaka is hell weaker than number 2. Mugino is hell weaker than Misaka. Number 5 is hell weaker than Mugino.


There is a huge difference in power between #1 and #2 and between #2 and Mikoto. That is correct. However, once we get to #3 and #4, the reliability of that scale for measuring power falls apart. As I said earlier, it is outright stated in the Index LNs that Mugino has much more power and output than Mikoto but requires far more control for her powers. We're talking about the character who
At the same time, there was an incident where #7 caught Mikoto's Railgun with his teeth. He caught Mikoto's most powerful attack with his TEETH. In other words, #3, #4, and #7 are not exponentially based. Misaki is the weakest of them all in terms of power and #6 is still an unknown.

JustALEX said:
Tyrel said:
TOUMAAAAAAAA

Easily the ONLY down side to the episode.

I fucking hate his bullshit hax.


And we now have our first Railgun purist complaining about Touma. I totally called it!
Exactly how is he hax?

...........and
JustALEX said:

Our first Mugino hating Mikoto fanboy

JustALEX said:

I guess the last 10 episodes or so will be "anime only" material, just like Railgun Season 1.


No. 3-5 episodes of those last 10 will be an adaptation of a Railgun SS LN (Liberal Arts City). The rest may just be anime only filler or if JC Staff is kind to us, we will get the Railgun SS2 LN (Shopping Mall Demonstration) as well.
Modified by Ashen_Miko, Jun 14, 2013 8:02 PM
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Jun 14, 2013 7:57 PM

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FUKOU DAAAA ARRIVES NEXT EP

GO TOUMAN GO WOOOT
 
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