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| Wooo. Did not expect that guy to set up a cult. Man, that should be interesting to see. Not bad. |
| My Anime Blog: http://www.Entravity.com/ Episodic overviews of the latest anime. |
skudoops said: niaxato said: I realize pinion was running salvage operation, but he is calling shots like he is commander of the fleet. Also, who discovers fantastic treasure, broadcasts it to the entire world, then says if you come near us you die and no one had a problem with that? These are the same people who were oh so sad Ledo killed the pirates who were going to rape and pillage them, now they have no problems firing on their own people? Whatever I guess, just seems like Pinion took a real dark turn a little to fast, but thats just me. As far as Ledo goes, he just sulks and doesnt say a word of what he has learned, not sure if I needed a whole episode of that, especially when there is only 2 left, but oh well. I guess I should clarify, Oreimo 2 was my most disappointing series this year so far and the only anime I can think of in recent memory that I dropped halfway through while it was currently airing. So Suisei would be my second most disappointing this year. Really liked the first 2 episodes, but the next 5 or 6 of a space travelers slice of life on waterworld just wasnt for me. If you enjoy the series, more power to you It was to create a reputation of invincibility, I think he rather let everyone know not to mess with them than people eventually finding out and they constantly being attacked by pirates. Also during the battle when they had disabled two ships and Pinion wanted to test the new cannon, don't you remember at the surprise of the other crew members when Pinion said to keep firing on them and sink them even though they suspected that they were out of ammunition? About ledo, he was simply reflecting upon his actions, his mission and ultimately his purpose in light of the newly acquired information. The problem is, he really has no one to confide in but chamber, as for the most part, Pinion is the only person he knows well on that ship and he's too busy worrying about the treasure, and I doubt he'd believe ledo anyway. Oh and about the enjoyment thing, I was just surprised that's all, if you find it disappointing that's fine. You do make some good points and I will concede some to you, I just thought more people would speak out against Pinion other than the old man and a few surprised faces. They didnt like killing pirates at the beginning but now they have no problems with all out war if it comes to it. I guess i'll concede the most on the Ledo point, your right, he didnt have anyone to confide in other than chamber and his emotions were in a heap. I guess I wanted him to have some dialogue about what he learned of the whale squids, thus explaining his turmoil. Believe me, I wanted to really like this series, the art, animation and the premise were very attractive to me, and the first couple episodes pulled me in, but the entirety of the next 6 episodes of slice of life, where it didnt feel like any relationships were being developed, let alone characters kinda fell flat for me. Case in point being the Captains funeral. I will be the first to admit the funeral process on their ship was really well done, but a whole episode on it, trying to draw on feels for a guy who had 2 sentences in 8 episodes just didn't do it for me. I realize Ledo had development with learning about a human culture so alien to his own, but honestly, I would have been happy with the series just focusing on his and Amy's relationship. Yes, it seems like they might like each other, but all in all, it felt to me like they could just as well be two people who chatted about the weather if they happened to pass by each other. |
niaxatoJun 9, 2013 12:26 PM
| oh shiiit this is getting good..i just pray they dont fuck up the ending ..only 3 eps left. all of those ppl on the other ship with KUGEL had those crazy "we got nothing to loose" eyes/faces..they looked like a bunch of cultists.. i expect ledo vs kugel next few eps. |
| Since everyone expects Ledo and Kugel to fight each other, I hope Ledo doesn't get all emotional and delay the fight for an entire episode as he tries to reason with him. |
| “Suppose, gentlemen, that man is not stupid.” |
bastek66 said: I dont get why Ledo is being a Galactic bitch about killing all of a sudden tooPhaetons_Folly said: Ledo really pissed me off in this episode. He has had no problem killing other humans before; he literally vaporized the pirates at the beginning of the series. Did you fucking skip episodes 3-8 or what? |
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niaxato said: Believe me, I wanted to really like this series, the art, animation and the premise were very attractive to me, and the first couple episodes pulled me in, but the entirety of the next 6 episodes of slice of life, where it didnt feel like any relationships were being developed, let alone characters, just wasnt for me. Case in point being the Captains funeral. I will be the first to admit the funeral process on their ship was really well done, but a whole episode on it, trying to draw on feels for a guy who had 2 sentences in 8 episodes just didn't do it for me. The funeral episode wasn't really intended to make the viewers feel for the guy (though some did). It was intended to put a hardship on the fleet, and show the transfer of power. In doing so, it raised ideological differences that lead to splitting up the fleet more so than just Pinion and his buddy. It developed Ridget's character, and gave us a bigger perspective of the fleet's community/politics, all while guiding us through the fleet to explore the "world" and it's customs. In fact, most of the slice of life episodes did develop characters and relationships (how else would Ledo go from a cold soldier vaporizing pirates to fighting to protect Amy and feeling for baby squid things), though maybe it was just too slow or subtle for your tastes. Everyone has a different opinion/ perspective though. |
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| Oh man it could go all different directions next episode. I thought pirate battle was coming but Kugel and crazy cult . Ledo better check himself before reck himself and buck up little buddy cause commander is probably all whacked out of his mind on squid brain drug and goin to tell you whats up! Amy has to get kidnapped some time soon too i figure so Ledo can save her. I miss the LOVE <3 |
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| At last. Without this useless fanservice it got really interesting! |
| But how Kugel got landed on earth at the first place? Is that really Commander Kugel? Well I say this cuz, we see a lot of mass produce of the same type of Machine Caliber, second, he somehow become a leader/god to a big fleet/group of cult and make them worship him, third, if Kugel came in same time as Ledo, how he manage to gain that level of trust in short time? So, I just wonder is that REALLY Commander Kugel?? Yes? No?Why? This curiosity will brother me all night tonight!!! |
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| Interesting episode, can't wait to see what thoses group of people were. |
| Pinnion is one of the best villains/antagonist written in last few years .His reasons are understandable, he is perfectly flawed and hate able, yet also relatable and not over-the-top. Also I am now 100% sure that hideauze lightbugs were what was used to "warm up" the planet and that the remaining humans in Gargantia and on earth are actually the successors of the evolvers who remained on the planet after the gate event and eventually shed their exoskeletons Chamber's logic is essentially very robotic and flawed, because it is based on assumption that the only correct way of existence is through technological advancement, treating biological advancement as inferior and a sign of lesser intellectual drive, just because. The only REALLY truthful part of his bullshit speech was the thing about coexistence - that when you have two fanatical species of extremely different ideologies, the only real way for it to end is for one of them to die out. it does not however make the genocide of hideauze done by human alliance justified or morally correct - its simply the only way the AI can see Human Alliance surviving. It does give off an idea that AI's are running alliance and controlling humanity, though. The tools are the actual masters. In anyway or form I am guessing Ledo will find a way through next episodes on an answer to the impossible idea of coexistence. Expecting some quite epic conflict between Ledo and his superior Antanaru said: Ledo started spouting same hippie bullshit as some people on this forum. It was kind of sad the sole voice of reason came from an AI. Next episodes should be really intriguing. This series has a chance to be the best in this season. Yes, how dare he having a breakdown after finding out that his whole life he has been massacring humans~ MaxCrazy7 said: Cloudseven said: Am I the only one who thinks Kugel is not there to be friendly Why would he be unfriendly? He is like Ledo before turning into emo boy and he is older so his believe of Hideauze annihilation is firmer, but the people he's hanging out with are kind of disconcerting though. You just explained on why he would be unfriendly. Spirai said: Antanaru said: Ledo started spouting same hippie bullshit as some people on this forum. It was kind of sad the sole voice of reason came from an AI. Next episodes should be really intriguing. This series has a chance to be the best in this season. "Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. ^THIS it was cold calculated AI logic that sort of makes sense (since both sides are intent on wiping the opposite out, but its in no way right or morally correct. If Chamber existed during Cold War, his logic would have been to just nuke the whole communist block of countries till no one at all survived there. There's a reason why humanity should never allow AI to manage their living conditions. |
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| I first I thought this episode was going to be bad. Pinion has gone nuts and let the power go to his head. Red is having a case of PTSD or something (it's probably some other psychological thing, but I'm too lazy to look into it.) and he is feeling extreme guilt over killing the Hideauze. I like the weapons they discovered, they aren't too over the top like Chamber's but they are loads better than what they have now. I hope Pinion gets over himself and they are able to share what they have found with the rest of humanity including Gargantia. Anyway, I thought this episode was going to such and they were going to spout the same anti-war, pacifist cliches you get in a thousand other anime, however--I must say, this episode was single-handedly saved by Chamber. Chamber is without a doubt, the best and smartest character in this entire show. The machine is smart enough to put together what his pilot could not: that the Hideauze are no longer human and haven't been for sometime. They gave up their humanity, willingly, and now that willingness has caused a war that has been waged for centuries. And it's no longer a war of ideals, but a war of survival...for existence. Though you now know the war's beginnings, it doesn't change the reality that you're in now. It just makes you more informed about the enemy. However, the twist that I saw was coming eventually, of Cmdr. Kugel being on Earth as well has arrived. But is he awake or in some sort of induced coma like Red was? Striker (Kugel's mech) doesn't seem to be active, since it's body and eyes weren't glowing. And who are these strange cult guys in robes? They have ships covered in impaled Hideuze and have weird red eyes painted on their foreheads. They look so spaced out. I want to know what's going to happen next! Why oh why did they decide to keep all the good stuff until the end and spent so much wasted time on nonsense? Anyway, I give this episode an 8/10. Chamber had the best speech of the series and that by itself is laudable. |
| Lots of Mayta this episode. I knew there would be some Ledo and Chamber conflict but I did not expect him to become independent give his own reasoning. Next episode: Pinion's fleet and Ledo vs Kugel and some squid haters/lovers? Seriously, who are these guys? |
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AoiMizu said: But how Kugel got landed on earth at the first place? Is that really Commander Kugel? Well I say this cuz, we see a lot of mass produce of the same type of Machine Caliber, second, he somehow become a leader/god to a big fleet/group of cult and make them worship him, third, if Kugel came in same time as Ledo, how he manage to gain that level of trust in short time? So, I just wonder is that REALLY Commander Kugel?? Yes? No?Why? This curiosity will brother me all night tonight!!! it's likely him, even if i've some doubts about it not being forced, on him being there if the wormhole was supposed to send them in random directions then it's highly unlikely for even one of them to land on the earth, almost absurd for both of them landing on the same place and that place being the earth but if the wormhole just did send them to a random other available gate, it would be less unlikely, yet one should wonder how the galactic alliance didn't realize an other gate (the one near the earth) was still working and operative so it's kugel? yes, if one should question the likeliness of it, one should also question the likeliness of ledo landing on the earth it's an huge asspull? yes, but let's overlook this at least untill the serie is over but yeah, if it wasn't kugel it would be a little better storywise, maybe an other soldier of the galactic alliance who got lost during a previous battle times before |
 Fixes to make the Profile more bearable after "the Modern★Profile★Update★★Rip★Profile★" |
| Mind blown |
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| Pinion cracks me up, power got to his head. For the most part I didn't mind but he was completely oblivious to Ledo's breakdown. |
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| Someone on a another forum brought up a good thought, that the cultists hes with are actually the remnant of the evolvers that may have been left on earth. So he must ether be that or he's got his own Manson family going now, Lol. |
VioLink said: Lots of Mayta this episode. I knew there would be some Ledo and Chamber conflict but I did not expect him to become independent give his own reasoning. Next episode: Pinion's fleet and Ledo vs Kugel and some squid haters/lovers? Seriously, who are these guys? I am begining to suspect that humanity is no longer in control of Alliance. or never was and AIs are running the whole show. its only fitting for both hideauze and Alliance to be the Cthulhu to Gargantia's humanity. Irenesharda said: Anyway, I thought this episode was going to such and they were going to spout the same anti-war, pacifist cliches you get in a thousand other anime, however--I must say, this episode was single-handedly saved by Chamber. Chamber is without a doubt, the best and smartest character in this entire show. The machine is smart enough to put together what his pilot could not: that the Hideauze are no longer human and haven't been for sometime. They gave up their humanity, willingly, and now that willingness has caused a war that has been waged for centuries. And it's no longer a war of ideals, but a war of survival...for existence. Though you now know the war's beginnings, it doesn't change the reality that you're in But that's the thing isn't it - its robot logic. It does not JUSTIFY the war. It just calculates that its needed for your survival. And in the end this is no different than a more extreme version of Cold War/ |
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HorribleSubs said: I have discovered evidence to back up the Hideauze video recording. It is the lightbugs. Lightbugs are nanomachines and actually comprise the Hideauze shell. They absorb electromagnetic waves and transform them into energy with high efficiency. At the same time, they are self-replicating and through carbon bonding, function as a durable exoskeleton. This is proof that the Hideauze are the results of directed evolution by the human race. LEDO: You... LEDO: How can you be like this?! LEDO: though it thoroughly refutes the meaning of the Galactic Alliance's... of my battle! You recognize an error in your knowledge. LEDO: Can I fight the Hideauze if they're the evolved human race?! LEDO: Is there a point to fighting them?! LEDO: If not, then I can't fight! LEDO: I can't murder those creatures... Unacceptable. Your cognition refutes the significance of our existence. LEDO: You saw them too, didn't you?! The forms of newborn whalesquid... LEDO: We're the same human race and we're killing each other! LEDO: That's the true nature of our war! Even after obtaining this information, there is no reason to give up on annihilating the Hideauze. LEDO: That's only you! LEDO: But for me... Negative. The Hideauze bring fundamental destruction to the human race. Helping to avoid that is your sole mission. LEDO: But we're all humans! LEDO: I've had enough of the Alliance's brainwashing! Negative. The parallel link between the Alliance and myself has been lost. I have arrived at this conclusion independently, based on information analysis. LEDO: What? The human race and the Hideauze will always be antagonistic toward one another. The reason for this is they are beings who have rejected civilization as a whole. LEDO: What do you mean? If the human race were equipped with strong, versatile bodies like the Hideauze, it would not have been necessary to develop Machine Calibers. My system is the crystallization of the intelligence of the human race. But we are also necessary to offset the fragile human body. Conjecture: Humans are beings that surpass their own limits, develop their intellect, and build civilizations. The existence of civilization is what separates the human race from all other primates. But the Hideauze have thrown away their human forms and have no physical limits. If living beings only seek out happiness and gratification, it isn't necessary for them to have a higher intellect. But the human race relies solely on Machine Calibers. That is to say, we are the crystallization of pure intellect, a product of civilization. And by overcoming even that intellect, the Hideauze have reached an extreme state of existence. You're saying the Hideauze are an extreme life form. And so, you and I must battle, with the dignity of the human race at stake. In a war with something that shares the same building blocks as you, failure means certain extinction. One side seeks out civilization. The other abandons it. The war between the Galactic Alliance of Humankind and the Hideauze is a conflict between two different survival strategies, one in which being culled is all that waits for the losing side. LEDO: Culled... As long as you wish to exist, you don't have the luxury of a choice. LEDO: Fight and impose our ways? LEDO: A machine like you is telling a human like me...? I am a Pilot Support Enlightenment Interface System. By achieving more and more results, you \Nwill realize the importance of existence. An AI speaks of dignity? |
linchpinJun 9, 2013 1:23 PM
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| I honestly think this show might go a different direction than just having Red and Kugel fight each other. Neither of them have been antagonistic in the past, and from what we've seen Kugel is a pretty nice guy and is very similar to Red in that he will go against protical to save others. The guy was willing to die to protect the fleet and the rest of humanity, I don't think that's the makings of a bad guy, at least without seeing any other backstory leading up to it. How do we know he even set up the cult or anything? How do we even know if the guy is conscious? Red was in an induced coma for 6 months before Chamber woke him up, and at that point he was already in Gargantia's hands. What if the same thing happened to Kugel and this cult somehow made Striker into an idol or something? I'm just saying that assuming that suddenly Kugel and Red will be enemies is jumping to conclusions. Especially for a soldier trained to obey his CO. And I don't care how much more in touch with his humanity Red has become, he still caries the mind and instincts of a soldier. |
| Pinion has a death flag tagged all over him. Whether it actually happens is another story. |
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So many thoughts going through Ledo's head in this episode. Can't wait for next week's episode. Really getting interesting now. |
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linchpin said: An AI speaks of dignity? I did LOL at that, but it makes a sense - its built by a fascist society so the idea of humanity's superiority and retaining your "dignity" and "purity" is inbuilt in whoever designed him. Elite60 said: Pinion has a death flag tagged all over him. Whether it actually happens is another story. Agreed. Either wayI do not see this ending in any way but tragedy. skudoops said: Fai said: Chamber's logic is essentially very robotic and flawed, because it is based on assumption that the only correct way of existence is through technological advancement, treating biological advancement as inferior and a sign of lesser intellectual drive, just because. The only REALLY truthful part of his bullshit speech was the thing about coexistence - that when you have two fanatical species of extremely different ideologies, the only real way for it to end is for one of them to die out. it does not however make the genocide of hideauze done by human alliance justified or morally correct - its simply the only way the AI can see Human Alliance surviving. -Actually Chamber did not put one form of existence over the other, he merely distinguished them in order to strengthen his overall point about why the Hideauze is a threat to humanity. -The genocide is justified merely on that basis alone, this isn't a battle for land or for wealth, it's a battle for survival of the species. I assume the show is trying to point out the contradictions of the alliance actions. On one hand they are ok with killing humans to survive but on the other they were against "evolving" to survive. It does make you wonder though, how are humans surviving in space? Why even need the evolvers if there were methods they could have used to survive? I am sorry but genocide is NEVER justified. Its also VERY convenient that Chamber puts Alliance as "more human" simply because of technology - something HE IS. I smell a bit of bias from him there. as for Space its about reliance on technology Through normal tech, it would take around ~70 THOUSAND years to reach nearest habitable star in what essentially is a tin can. That's the main method of evolver ideology - to take away the unreliable factor in the journey through space. |
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Fai said: Irenesharda said: Anyway, I thought this episode was going to suck and they were going to spout the same anti-war, pacifist cliches you get in a thousand other anime, however--I must say, this episode was single-handedly saved by Chamber. Chamber is without a doubt, the best and smartest character in this entire show. The machine is smart enough to put together what his pilot could not: that the Hideauze are no longer human and haven't been for sometime. They gave up their humanity, willingly, and now that willingness has caused a war that has been waged for centuries. And it's no longer a war of ideals, but a war of survival...for existence. Though you now know the war's beginnings, it doesn't change the reality that you're in But that's the thing isn't it - its robot logic. It does not JUSTIFY the war. It just calculates that its needed for your survival. And in the end this is no different than a more extreme version of Cold War/ I'm sorry but I don't believe or agree with that. Survival doesn't justify a war? I think you would agree that it's perfectly okay to fight for survival. Both groups are trying to survive and sometimes there can be only one victor, especially if one side is determined to kill the other. And though the war might have started off as a war between differing ideas, a few thousand years has changed things quite a bit. That is no longer what this war is about and hasn't been for a long time. The Hideauze are not human anymore, that's for certain. They are no longer bound by those ideals that separate humanity from animals. They are killing humans because they see them as nothing by ants to be squashed. You forget that though the episode in the beginning showed the Alliance firing first, that was a last ditch effort to stop the Hideauze who had ALREADY been attacking them and have been following and attacking them in their entire travel through space. I mean think about it. Space is pretty much infinite and the Hideauze could have gone anywhere in the galaxy they liked, however they chose to follow the Alliance. Why was that? Maybe because they are just as antagonistic as the Alliance was at the time. |
skudoops said: Fai said: Chamber's logic is essentially very robotic and flawed, because it is based on assumption that the only correct way of existence is through technological advancement, treating biological advancement as inferior and a sign of lesser intellectual drive, just because. The only REALLY truthful part of his bullshit speech was the thing about coexistence - that when you have two fanatical species of extremely different ideologies, the only real way for it to end is for one of them to die out. it does not however make the genocide of hideauze done by human alliance justified or morally correct - its simply the only way the AI can see Human Alliance surviving. -Actually Chamber did not put one form of existence over the other, he merely distinguished them in order to strengthen his overall point about why the Hideauze is a threat to humanity. -The genocide is justified merely on that basis alone, this isn't a battle for land or for wealth, it's a battle for survival of the species. I assume the show is trying to point out the contradictions of the alliance actions. On one hand they are ok with killing humans to survive but on the other they were against "evolving" to survive. It does make you wonder though, how are humans surviving in space? Why even need the evolvers if there were methods they could have used to survive? That was technically the whole dilemma between the CA and the Evolvers. One side said "let's advance our tech", and the other side said "let's advance our bodies". However, I'm sorry but mad science rarely goes well, especially with such vast genetic tampering. I'd have to go with the "advance tech" option. |
| Chamber's speech for reference: HorribleSubs said: CHAMBER: I have discovered evidence to back up the Hideauze video recording. It is the lightbugs. Lightbugs are nanomachines and actually comprise the Hideauze shell. They absorb electromagnetic waves and transform them into energy with high efficiency. At the same time, they are self-replicating and through carbon bonding, function as a durable exoskeleton. This is proof that the Hideauze are the results of directed evolution by the human race. LEDO: You... How can you be like this?! though it thoroughly refutes the meaning of the Galactic Alliance's... of my battle! CHAMBER: You recognize an error in your knowledge. LEDO: Can I fight the Hideauze if they're the evolved human race?! Is there a point to fighting them?! If not, then I can't fight! I can't murder those creatures... CHAMBER: Unacceptable. Your cognition refutes the significance of our existence. LEDO: You saw them too, didn't you?! The forms of newborn whalesquid... We're the same human race and we're killing each other! That's the true nature of our war! CHAMBER: Even after obtaining this information, there is no reason to give up on annihilating the Hideauze. LEDO: That's only you! But for me... CHAMBER: Negative. The Hideauze bring fundamental destruction to the human race. Helping to avoid that is your sole mission. LEDO: But we're all humans! I've had enough of the Alliance's brainwashing! CHAMBER: Negative. The parallel link between the Alliance and myself has been lost. I have arrived at this conclusion independently, based on information analysis. LEDO: What? CHAMBER: The human race and the Hideauze will always be antagonistic toward one another. The reason for this is they are beings who have rejected civilization as a whole. LEDO: What do you mean? CHAMBER: If the human race were equipped with strong, versatile bodies like the Hideauze, it would not have been necessary to develop Machine Calibers. My system is the crystallization of the intelligence of the human race. But we are also necessary to offset the fragile human body. Conjecture: Humans are beings that surpass their own limits, develop their intellect, and build civilizations. The existence of civilization is what separates the human race from all other primates. But the Hideauze have thrown away their human forms and have no physical limits. If living beings only seek out happiness and gratification, it isn't necessary for them to have a higher intellect. But the human race relies solely on Machine Calibers. That is to say, we are the crystallization of pure intellect, a product of civilization. And by overcoming even that intellect, the Hideauze have reached an extreme state of existence. LEDO: You're saying the Hideauze are an extreme life form. CHAMBER: And so, you and I must battle, with the dignity of the human race at stake. In a war with something that shares the same building blocks as you, failure means certain extinction. One side seeks out civilization. The other abandons it. The war between the Galactic Alliance of Humankind and the Hideauze is a conflict between two different survival strategies, one in which being culled is all that waits for the losing side. LEDO: Culled... CHAMBER: As long as you wish to exist, you don't have the luxury of a choice. LEDO: Fight and impose our ways? A machine like you is telling a human like me...? I am a Pilot Support Enlightenment Interface System. By achieving more and more results, you Nwill realize the importance of existence. About your theory, Fai, about The Alliance being run by Machine Calibers... It sounds plausible. Chamber stressed a couple times that humanity relies on Machine Calibers and that they are "the crystallization of pure intellect". It's like those two EXTREME forms of life were The Hideauze and the Machine Calibers. Also, how dare they "overcome even that intellect (that led to ME)"?! |
linchpinJun 9, 2013 2:02 PM
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Zeando said: it's likely him, even if i've some doubts about it not being forced, on him being there if the wormhole was supposed to send them in random directions then it's highly unlikely for even one of them to land on the earth, almost absurd for both of them landing on the same place and that place being the earth but if the wormhole just did send them to a random other available gate, it would be less unlikely, yet one should wonder how the galactic alliance didn't realize an other gate (the one near the earth) was still working and operative so it's kugel? yes, if one should question the likeliness of it, one should also question the likeliness of ledo landing on the earth it's an huge asspull? yes, but let's overlook this at least untill the serie is over but yeah, if it wasn't kugel it would be a little better storywise, maybe an other soldier of the galactic alliance who got lost during a previous battle times before I see, thank you for the respond. Now, I can sleep >3>.... |
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skudoops said: Fai said: I am sorry but genocide is NEVER justified. as for Space its about reliance on technology Through normal tech, it would take around ~70 THOUSAND years to reach nearest habitable star in what essentially is a tin can. That's the main method of evolver ideology - to take away the unreliable factor in the journey through space. How is it not justified in this case? It's either us or them, so I don't see how it isn't justified. Also yeah I just remembered in the episode before they mentioned it taking a long time before humans could possibly find another planet, so the evolvers were merely an alternative solution. I have to concur. What if the race they were fighting were Xenomorphs or something along those lines who can't be bartered with and will destroy humankind if we don't fight and destroy them? Is it okay, then? |
| Lol @ people blaming Ledo for being depressive. Killing a couple of pirates versus massacring a large groupe of innocent creatures are 2 completely different things. |
| I got extremely concerned at the faces of those in the cultish group that is accompanying Commander Kugel. That doesn't bode well for Ledo. Chamber's speech was thought provoking and right on many points. There is one flaw though, and that is the Hideauze left on Earth are either a devolved species of Hideauze or have simply become used to a peaceful lifestyle unlike their space brethren (just like the humans of Gargantia are different to the Galactic Alliance despite having the exact same genes). IN that sense, Chamber/Ledo do not have an obligation to fight and destroy the WhaleSquid. |
| "Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov |
Zulichka said: Chambers speech was perfect. Hideauze may have a common ancestor with Galactic Alliance, but they are no longer human, they are mindless monsters. They abandoned civilization and became sort of Borg, like cancer that spreads without control, of course it is alright to fight them. This is what I got from Chambers explanation, that one group chose intellect to survive and maintain their humanity, other gave up humanity to survive and became mindless animals. What? Come again? Who said they are "mindless monsters"? Sure, they may not look human anymore (and why should they? They are now adapted to the life in space), but why are they mindless? Just because they look indeed a bit monstrous? To me it sounds like they are at war because they have always been at war (since the evolvers evolved). I'm like 100% sure that the human humans didn't even try to use dimplomacy. The Evolvers prolly not, either. If we can't use our intellect, which we have evolved over thousands of years, to find a different solution than zenmetsu, we are nothing but apes with railguns. |
| I want Rambo in a mecha-suit with a laser-chainsaw gun that fires nuclear warheads, fighting the love-child of Predator, Alien, a group of Bangladeshi terrorists, and Satan. (Actually that would be a pretty sick show) - StopDropAndBowl |
KanameFujiwara said: Phaetons_Folly said: my gut reaction when I learned the Hideauze were human is that they should destroyed. I’m really glad Chamber was able to talk some sense into Ledo because Chamber is right that fact the Hideauze are evolved humans make them an even greater threat. This is wrong on so many levels. How could one kill human beings so carelessly? I'm disturbed! TQ Yep, I am disturbed as well. So many people here wanting to kill superior life form. How is the Hideauze a threat? They don't neet the resources which weaker-body-humans need. So where is the conflict? Why do you need to kill? Just to kill some one because they are superior in something than you? Based on that, bringing it to current reality: So if some one is better than you - they need to be killed. Hm. Ok. Let's see where is lot's of money - US. Kill all Americans. And this is not terrorism. This is justified survival of weaker humans. /s |
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| So in the end, their silly war is just humans killing each other. Proof that war never changes. |
| "whats so special about bonzai trees?" "They are the loli of the tree world."  Inganock of the Brightest Flame |
| Pinion's a fucking idiot. |
| You're all idiots, but I'm no different. |
| I'm sure the Hideauze would have a good laugh at "the human dignity" part if they heard that speech. The Hideauze do not have those kind of reasons to fight. I'm quite sure they are convinced they surpassed humanity. They are strong, they are safe, they can live on light in vacuum. The conflict of two survival strategies? Every species on Earth has a different survival strategy, each and every one of them wants to survive. And most of them coexist without getting in each other's way. Conflicts arise when two species belong to the same ecological niche and fight over resources or territory. I can't see how the Hideauze and the Alliance could compete for territory given that the Hideauze can live almost anywhere in the universe and resources - the Hideauze don't need them. To me, the conflict between Hideauze and The Alliance is like the conflicting survival strategy of mice and whales. Mice in Machine Calibers. |
linchpinJun 9, 2013 2:29 PM
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skudoops said: Spirai said: Antanaru said: Ledo started spouting same hippie bullshit as some people on this forum. It was kind of sad the sole voice of reason came from an AI. Next episodes should be really intriguing. This series has a chance to be the best in this season. "Hippie bullshit"? Ledo just had a melt-down because he doesn't understand why he's fighting his own species just because the two disagree how humans should live and some idiotic shallow 'restoring our dignity' that Chamber preached. If anyone was the moronic one, it's whatever's been programmed into Chamber. Actually Chamber is 100% correct. The purpose of his speech was to tell ledo why exterminating the Hideauze was still necessary and his reasoning cannot honestly be refuted. He basically said that civilization separates man from other primates, and that humans overcome their limits by using their intelligence. However the Hideauze are different, they do not have the limitations of the human body yet possess the human intellect, such a species would eventually dominate and result in the extinction of the human race. Thank you for explaining what he was saying. I was having a hard time digesting it all since it almost seemed like he was being biased. But either way, I still don't think war is the answer. If they don't battle each other, would one of them actually die out? I mean they have the whole galaxy to live in, I'm pretty sure there's no problem with living space or overpopulation yet. So why not just sign a peace treaty? Are they unable to communicate with the Hideauze? Have they even tried? What's wrong with having two different species of human- one of which has become so diverse that the Alliance (if the Alliance did program it in Chamber, or, depending on what Chamber meant when he said "I'm a crystallization of perfect intelligence and I reached this conclusion on my own", it's possible that the AIs themselves have decided to exterminate the Hideauze) that it's no longer recognized as 'human'? What's wrong with coexistence....Wow, now I sound like Gargantia. Maybe that was the point of this whole anime; coexistence. |
Wordsmith said: Zulichka said: Chambers speech was perfect. Hideauze may have a common ancestor with Galactic Alliance, but they are no longer human, they are mindless monsters. They abandoned civilization and became sort of Borg, like cancer that spreads without control, of course it is alright to fight them. This is what I got from Chambers explanation, that one group chose intellect to survive and maintain their humanity, other gave up humanity to survive and became mindless animals. What? Come again? Who said they are "mindless monsters"? Sure, they may not look human anymore (and why should they? They are now adapted to the life in space), but why are they mindless? Just because they look indeed a bit monstrous? To me it sounds like they are at war because they have always been at war (since the evolvers evolved). I'm like 100% sure that the human humans didn't even try to use dimplomacy. The Evolvers prolly not, either. If we can't use our intellect, which we have evolved over thousands of years, to find a different solution than zenmetsu, we are nothing but apes with railguns. EXACTLY. which is why I think, Ledo, somehow inspired by amy will be the catalyst of the dialogue between two species or something like that GDL-URAHARA said: KanameFujiwara said: Phaetons_Folly said: my gut reaction when I learned the Hideauze were human is that they should destroyed. I’m really glad Chamber was able to talk some sense into Ledo because Chamber is right that fact the Hideauze are evolved humans make them an even greater threat. This is wrong on so many levels. How could one kill human beings so carelessly? I'm disturbed! TQ Yep, I am disturbed as well. So many people here wanting to kill superior life form. How is the Hideauze a threat? They don't neet the resources which weaker-body-humans need. So where is the conflict? Why do you need to kill? Just to kill some one because they are superior in something than you? Based on that, bringing it to current reality: So if some one is better than you - they need to be killed. Hm. Ok. Let's see where is lot's of money - US. Kill all Americans. And this is not terrorism. This is justified survival of weaker humans. /s Exactly. Maybe we should kill all the animals on earth too? Since you know they don't drive cars and have teeth. Or hey! Let's kill all the other religions too since their ideals differ~ So much racism in MAL, lol. linchpin said: Chamber's speech for reference: HorribleSubs said: CHAMBER: I have discovered evidence to back up the Hideauze video recording. It is the lightbugs. Lightbugs are nanomachines and actually comprise the Hideauze shell. They absorb electromagnetic waves and transform them into energy with high efficiency. At the same time, they are self-replicating and through carbon bonding, function as a durable exoskeleton. This is proof that the Hideauze are the results of directed evolution by the human race. LEDO: You... How can you be like this?! though it thoroughly refutes the meaning of the Galactic Alliance's... of my battle! CHAMBER: You recognize an error in your knowledge. LEDO: Can I fight the Hideauze if they're the evolved human race?! Is there a point to fighting them?! If not, then I can't fight! I can't murder those creatures... CHAMBER: Unacceptable. Your cognition refutes the significance of our existence. LEDO: You saw them too, didn't you?! The forms of newborn whalesquid... We're the same human race and we're killing each other! That's the true nature of our war! CHAMBER: Even after obtaining this information, there is no reason to give up on annihilating the Hideauze. LEDO: That's only you! But for me... CHAMBER: Negative. The Hideauze bring fundamental destruction to the human race. Helping to avoid that is your sole mission. LEDO: But we're all humans! I've had enough of the Alliance's brainwashing! CHAMBER: Negative. The parallel link between the Alliance and myself has been lost. I have arrived at this conclusion independently, based on information analysis. LEDO: What? CHAMBER: The human race and the Hideauze will always be antagonistic toward one another. The reason for this is they are beings who have rejected civilization as a whole. LEDO: What do you mean? CHAMBER: If the human race were equipped with strong, versatile bodies like the Hideauze, it would not have been necessary to develop Machine Calibers. My system is the crystallization of the intelligence of the human race. But we are also necessary to offset the fragile human body. Conjecture: Humans are beings that surpass their own limits, develop their intellect, and build civilizations. The existence of civilization is what separates the human race from all other primates. But the Hideauze have thrown away their human forms and have no physical limits. If living beings only seek out happiness and gratification, it isn't necessary for them to have a higher intellect. But the human race relies solely on Machine Calibers. That is to say, we are the crystallization of pure intellect, a product of civilization. And by overcoming even that intellect, the Hideauze have reached an extreme state of existence. LEDO: You're saying the Hideauze are an extreme life form. CHAMBER: And so, you and I must battle, with the dignity of the human race at stake. In a war with something that shares the same building blocks as you, failure means certain extinction. One side seeks out civilization. The other abandons it. The war between the Galactic Alliance of Humankind and the Hideauze is a conflict between two different survival strategies, one in which being culled is all that waits for the losing side. LEDO: Culled... CHAMBER: As long as you wish to exist, you don't have the luxury of a choice. LEDO: Fight and impose our ways? A machine like you is telling a human like me...? I am a Pilot Support Enlightenment Interface System. By achieving more and more results, you Nwill realize the importance of existence. About your theory, Fai, about The Alliance being run by Machine Calibers... It sounds plausible. Chamber stressed a couple times that humanity relies on Machine Calibers and that they are "the crystallization of pure intellect". It's like those two EXTREME forms of life were The Hideauze and the Machine Calibers. Also, how dare they "overcome even that intellect (that led to ME)"?! Exactly my thoughts. Chamber sounds very biased and frankly it is even sort of foreshadowed by flashbacks in previous episode - the very idea of evolvers brings up the idea of Humanity's reliance on machines in the longterm space travel. Let's not forget the fact that the VERY existence of that monologue , indicated individuality of the AI, as well as self-awareness, so AIs are essentially a conscious lifeform, which makes Chamber a hypocrite - since AIs and Alliance coexist, why can't Hideauze and Alliance? Maybe because AI's essentially turned the whole Alliance mentality into that of an AI? When you think about it the structure and the ideas of Alliance is quite...robotic. What's more, The whole speech actually makes it seem like Chamber is presenting the AIs as the pinnacle of life, of intellectual advance skudoops said: Fai said: I am sorry but genocide is NEVER justified. as for Space its about reliance on technology Through normal tech, it would take around ~70 THOUSAND years to reach nearest habitable star in what essentially is a tin can. That's the main method of evolver ideology - to take away the unreliable factor in the journey through space. How is it not justified in this case? It's either us or them, so I don't see how it isn't justified. Also yeah I just remembered in the episode before they mentioned it taking a long time before humans could possibly find another planet, so the evolvers were merely an alternative solution. If we devolve into us versus them mentality then we already have failed as human race and I'd hope we are truly alone in the universe then or we are the exact kind of aline that stars in our science fiction movies. |
AhenshihaelJun 9, 2013 2:38 PM
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