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Why do some people believe in ''objectivity'' when it comes to story telling mediums ?

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May 28, 2013 10:56 AM
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unless you mesure like moe using a proper system of things
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May 28, 2013 11:00 AM

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DateYutaka said:
unless you mesure like moe using a proper system of things

Lol what? btw in Japan is their some fans who shit on otakus for loving moe anime and ecchi harems ?
 
May 28, 2013 11:08 AM

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Short answer: Person A says Dragonball Z is the best, Person B says Dragonball Z is ass. They're both objectively right, within the context of their own experiences, until one or both of them are proven wrong. There are obvious ways of assessing anime objectively with things like audiovisuals, the usage of established narrative tools, pacing, etc, but I'm gonna ignore that for this.

Before I go any further though, lemme don my Pretentious Hat and monocle.

 
May 28, 2013 11:09 AM
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Arararraragi-kun said:
DateYutaka said:
unless you mesure like moe using a proper system of things

Lol what? btw in Japan is their some fans who shit on otakus for loving moe anime and ecchi harems ?

look at how i rate there all balck and white
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May 28, 2013 11:12 AM

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Anything that relies on your judgement is, however you put it, subjective. I can write an entire page about how good or bad a story is, but to prove my points I have to give some reasoning, and that falls into something "subjective".

An objective reasoning is based on facts, but we all know there is almost no fact when we talk about something.

I am absolutely objective if I say "2 + 2 = 4", this is proven, it's a fact.

There is, however, a line between subjective and objective, and that is when a certain amount of people agree on something and outweigh the people who don't. It's still not a fact, but rather an opinion that is shared by many.
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May 28, 2013 11:14 AM

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Shocked said:

The way I see it, people confuse objectiveness with a common opinion or, in weird situations, their own opinion based on what they think is the standard for anime. As for why, I'd say it's because that's what is true for them based on their own experience with the medium, they just don't want to be wrong, or something of the sort.
That being said though, is it really a bad thing? I feel that the problem lies with people being too stubborn to admit they're wrong than anything else. Even worse, people throwing around the word "objective" without any idea about what it means. Hell, the word "objective" has seen just as much abuse as "dark," "deep," or "deconstruction." So...At least from what I've reading, it's not so much objective vs. subjective, but it's one person playing Go Fish while the other is playing Texas Hold 'em. People aren't just playing with different rules, they're playing different games with regards to anime.

I agree and yes that's the problem otherwise I would have just ignored anyone who say ''my opinion is objective and based on facts'' etc..
 
May 28, 2013 11:18 AM
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How do you measure good writing? I would argue that this is measured by how well you communicate to your audience. Using formalism, we can criticize any work simply by analyzing the elements of literature that pop up on it. We must see how effectively a writer uses these elements to get his message(s) to his intended audience. Whether or not he succeeds in communicating to his audience is a fairly objective measurement, but the subjectivity plays in when what the audience will recognize is entirely based on subjective preference. For example, Shakespeare simply won't hit it home with a modern audience nor is it intended to do so.
 
May 28, 2013 11:26 AM

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Shocked said:
People have faith in what they believe is true, and they will remain true until proven wrong. There are no absolutes in this world, everything is subjective, blah blah blah.


There is just so much wrong with this.

A) not everyone is living their life based on "faith"
I certainly try not to. I base my life on
1) Base assumption about existentialism, that I a) exist and b) my senses are capable of sometimes aquiring data from the objective reality around me and c) that this data is better as a point of reference than no data at all.

2)Base my opinions on evidentialism. Meaning that instead of believing things on faith I believe in evidence, which I or other people have aquired through their external senses and tested and tested again in many different way, shared with others and confirmed.

This is science based thinking.

B)" and they will remain true until proven wrong"
No that's not how reality works.
The one making the claim has the burden of proof. If I say X is (like) Y, then I have to give justified reason for why I think X is (like) Y.

I think cars(X) exist(Y), because exidence a, b and c.
Not "I have faith that cars exist, and I will believe this until everyone else proves me wrong".

That's just plain retarded.
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May 28, 2013 11:30 AM

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sherlock5545 said:
Anything that relies on your judgement is, however you put it, subjective. I can write an entire page about how good or bad a story is, but to prove my points I have to give some reasoning, and that falls into something "subjective".

An objective reasoning is based on facts, but we all know there is almost no fact when we talk about something.

I am absolutely objective if I say "2 + 2 = 4", this is proven, it's a fact.

There is, however, a line between subjective and objective, and that is when a certain amount of people agree on something and outweigh the people who don't. It's still not a fact, but rather an opinion that is shared by many.

Yes exactly those reasoning you give to explain how good or bad a show is are subjective and it certainly doesn't make your opinion somehow objective.
Opinion shared by some majority =/= objectivity.
 
May 28, 2013 11:30 AM

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sherlock5545 said:


I am absolutely objective if I say "2 + 2 = 4", this is proven, it's a fact.


This is because there is evidence for it.
You can prove it. It's a scientific fact because you can demonstrate it, provide evidence.

take 2 objects and place them to 2 of the same objects and count them. You will be supprised they won't be suddenly 3 or 5 but 4.

here try for yourself and count:

oo oo
2 2
=
oooo
4


This is no magic this is simple evidence based logic.

The problem comes when you judge things. Because then you give us evidence for something but justify a value based on it.

oo+oo = oooo
doesn't tell you whether it is good, bad, evil, pure, meaningful or what purpose it has.
That is all your subjective after-evaluation.
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May 28, 2013 11:35 AM

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For the sake of debating technical quality. It would be very boring if we all agreed on everything.


 
May 28, 2013 11:35 AM

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Increase in measurable qualities after some point don't have big effect. But before this they can have.

There is rather objective ways to compare some qualities, like audio and video. If audio and video are so bad you can't see anything or hear anything. Can't you really say that they are objectively bad?
 
May 28, 2013 11:40 AM

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If you put it that way.......all the things evaluated is a subjective thing.......where as objectively is to not add any evaluation like "the apple is tasty" but to tell "this is an apple".
I always hated these kind of conversations,at first I got it all wrong but then I slowly got your point.
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May 28, 2013 11:41 AM

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Shrabster said:
For the sake of debating technical quality. It would be very boring if we all agreed on everything.

That's quite the opposite if objectivity actually existed there would no arguing or debating what makes a good show etc... subjectivity is what causes debates and arguments.
Ekaros said:
Increase in measurable qualities after some point don't have big effect. But before this they can have.

There is rather objective ways to compare some qualities, like audio and video. If audio and video are so bad you can't see anything or hear anything. Can't you really say that they are objectively bad?

But that's not taken into effect when arguing whether the animation and sound is better from an anime to another.
 
May 28, 2013 11:43 AM

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Ekaros said:
Increase in measurable qualities after some point don't have big effect. But before this they can have.

There is rather objective ways to compare some qualities, like audio and video. If audio and video are so bad you can't see anything or hear anything. Can't you really say that they are objectively bad?


So I give you the short version of my long ass rant on this thing:

Depends on your framework.
What is it that you expect from the anime?
If your expectations for a certain criteria are not met you can clearly voice your opinion. If you criteria are: everything has to look like gits and sound like it, then you set standard on which you value everything else.

But if you do the same thing based on pokemon suddenly that measurability becomes quite different.

I might agree on the "static animation fails to be animation and thus is bad" but the audio thing is hard.
shows like Texhnolyze, Lain and a more recent example Another are all very quiet shows, they sometimes have no music at all but only drone or ambient noise.
Is that objectively bad compared to orchestra, classical tracks or pop music?

How do you define what the anime ought to be?
This is where the subjective framework comes in.

You set your expectations, your personal taste and then tell everyone in a review if it was met. That's not objective... but critical and honest.

This is how I think reviews should be, and not trying to tell someone the truth, that's not your job.
Reviewers job is to give informed opinions. the more you know about the subject the better informed they are.
Modified by Orsonius, May 28, 2013 11:47 AM
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May 28, 2013 11:45 AM

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BloodyNightsky said:
If you put it that way.......all the things evaluated is a subjective thing.......where as objectively is to not add any evaluation like "the apple is tasty" but to tell "this is an apple".
I always hated these kind of conversations,at first I got it all wrong but then I slowly got your point.


Congratulations, you pointed it out pretty correctly.

Objective is just stating facts about objects. (Is an apple)
Subjective is evaluating objects.(Is a tasty apple)
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May 28, 2013 11:58 AM

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Orsonius said:
A) not everyone is living their life based on "faith"
I certainly try not to. I base my life on
1) Base assumption about existentialism, that I a) exist and b) my senses are capable of sometimes aquiring data from the objective reality around me and c) that this data is better as a point of reference than no data at all.


Just to clarify, what do you mean by "sometimes acquiring data from the objective reality around you?"

And to bring it back to anime, since I'm not trying talking about existentialism, or at least that's not what I intended, assume there's an anime that can be objectively proven to be great and well-made. Will it necessarily follow that if someone hates this anime, they are wrong?


Orsonius said:
2)Base my opinions on evidentialism. Meaning that instead of believing things on faith I believe in evidence, which I or other people have aquired through their external senses and tested and tested again in many different way, shared with others and confirmed.

This is science based thinking.



Is science set in stone? Regardless of the answer, why do hypotheses need to be tested again and again?


Orsonius said:
B)" and they will remain true until proven wrong"
No that's not how reality works.



I can say 1 + 1 = 3 and believe in it. You can prove me wrong, which causes me to believe in what you said. Am I wrong, or am I misunderstanding what you mean?


Orsonius said:
The one making the claim has the burden of proof. If I say X is (like) Y, then I have to give justified reason for why I think X is (like) Y.



I wasn't aware that the burden of proof belonged to the person making the claim. Wasn't even aware of that rule. Still, I'll buy that.


Orsonius said:
I think cars(X) exist(Y), because exidence a, b and c.
Not "I have faith that cars exist, and I will believe this until everyone else proves me wrong".

That's just plain retarded.



This is the worst part about arguing with rabid anime fans. I agree that it's retarded logic, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying "I'm right until everyone proves me wrong," I'm saying "what I believe is right until I receive evidence that I'm wrong, regardless if I'm the one who found that evidence or if it was given to me." I'm not arguing for "everything is subjective" or for the stubbornness present in the anime community, I'm trying to argue for flexibility in opinions giving way to a better understanding of storytelling elements, which are not grounded in numbers or precedents, that make for successful anime. Perhaps I wasn't really clear on that.

And oh yeah, forgot to take off my Pretentious Hat and monocle. My bad.
Modified by Shocked, May 28, 2013 12:13 PM
 
May 28, 2013 12:18 PM

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Because they're stupid.
Nowhere in the Humpty Dumpty nursery rhyme does it state that Humpty is an egg.
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May 28, 2013 12:22 PM

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Shocked said:


Just to clarify, what do you mean by "sometimes acquiring data from the objective reality around you?"


Well you have to make the assumption that your senses and your brain is capable of collecting information of your surroundings.

Or in simple turns:
You have to believe what your eyes see, your nose smells, your skin feels, your ears hear, and your tongue tastes.
If you don't assume that your senses are capable of collecting outside information you basically have no where to go epistemologically.

Of course they are prone to mistakes. Everyone of us has seen things that are not there, heard things that are not there and so on.

Our brain makes mistakes, that's why we need confirmation from as many sources as possible, both from our own 5 senses and those from others, or tools that help us like thermometers for heat, or visual/audio detectors etc.


Shocked said:

Is science set in stone? Regardless of the answer, why do hypotheses need to be tested again and again?


No science is a method to explain the natural world, the only world we can detect information from (since we live in the natural world, aka reality)

Why it has to be tested again and again?
Because testing methods become better and better the more technology advanced.
People 500 years ago had no lasers to measure distances to objects and so on.
Science is about explaining reality as accurate as possible.
If we can do it more accurate we do so, thus things get tested and changed again and again, always for the more "right" answer.

There are no absolutes in science, which is good because it means what is wrong can be changed.
It doesn't mean science has no clue though, our today's standard of science is pretty damn accurate in most aspects.

Shocked said:

I can say 1 + 1 = 3 and believe in it. You can prove me wrong, which causes me to believe in what you said. Am I wrong, or am I misunderstanding?


No that's not proving someone wrong.
I cannot prove 1+1 = 3 to be wrong, I can only prove 1+1= 2 to be right and present you with solid evidence why that's the case.
If you cannot back up your claim by evidence mine has more scientific value and thus deemed to be right.

Of course indirectly I proved you "wrong" but that's not the job of science. It's not there to prove people wrong. You can make infinite statements about wrong things and I would need infinite time to prove them all "wrong". like
1+1= 3
wrong
1+1=4
wrong
[...]
1+1=4327545234324
wrong

No, you make the claim 1+1=3(+n) and have to back up the claim with evidence or I can just dismiss it out of hand and disregard it.


Shocked said:
I wasn't aware that the burden of proof belonged to the person making the claim. Wasn't even aware of that rule. Still, I'll buy that.


See the above example. It would be ridiculous to prove all claims wrong since you can make an infinite wrong claims.
To be short here. You cannot prove negatives
(X does not exist)
You can only prove positives
(X exists)
You can only make things uncertain and say
(it is unlikely that X exists because...)

But I am glad I was able to teach you something. It's a very fundamental principle about critical thinking. Something I'd like to see all people understand and use in their lives, it will help you escape frauds and liars ;D

Shocked said:

This is the worst part about arguing with rabid anime fans. I agree that it's retarded logic, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying "I'm right until everyone proves me wrong," I'm saying "what I believe is right until I receive evidence that I'm wrong, regardless if I'm the one who found that evidence or if it was given to me." I'm not arguing for "everything is subjective" or the stubbornness present in the anime community, I'm trying to argue for flexibility in opinions giving way to a better understanding of storytelling elements, which are not grounded in numbers or precedents, that make for successful anime. Perhaps I wasn't really clear on that.


Well all I can say is: It's not your job to disprove every claim a person makes, if that person is incapable of making a solid point you can just ignore it.
What's what people call hater, or fanboys.
Basically people who are unable to give solid arguments for a case.

But it's very natural, human beings have emotions, and you can't turn them off.
So excuse people for being irrational since that's what every human being will be at some point, however collected and logical you think you are.
Modified by Orsonius, May 28, 2013 12:26 PM
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May 28, 2013 12:31 PM

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0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + …

0 = (1 - 1)

0 = (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + …

Okay so far? Now shift the parentheses:

0 = 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + …

0 = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + …

0 = 1

Fuck your logic ಠ_ಠ
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May 28, 2013 12:32 PM

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^ Objective statements (such as 1 + 1 = 2) are true regardless of whether or not we believe them to be true. They can be measured without human judgement.

Subjective statements (such as "Code Geass is good") require our beliefs for them to be true. They cannot be measured without human judgement.

Ghost-Lightning said:
0 = 0 + 0 + 0 + …

0 = (1 - 1)

0 = (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + (1 - 1) + …

Okay so far? Now shift the parentheses:

0 = 1 + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + (-1 + 1) + …

0 = 1 + 0 + 0 + 0 + …

0 = 1

Fuck your logic ಠ_ಠ
You didn't shift the parentheses, you just added 1 to the right side. You need to show what happens at the end of the series.

If we actually limit the series to, say, 3 zeroes:
0 = 0+0+0
0 = (1-1)+(1-1)+(1-1)
0 = 1+(-1+1)+(-1+1)+(-1)
0 = 1 + 0 + 0 - 1
0 = 0
Shifting the parentheses does absolutely nothing.
Modified by gamer2710, May 28, 2013 12:43 PM
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May 28, 2013 12:43 PM

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@Orsonius

Well alright, I'm happy. Again though, to bring it back to anime, it just feels like if someone ever uses the words "I believe," "I think," or "I like," it sets off a landmine or something. Suddenly, they're a pleb if they can't defend themselves rhetorically and with evidence to back it up. Even then, if that anime is deemed "objectively bad," even if it's legitly bad, it's a foregone conclusion.

Again, disregarding rabid fans etc, but there's still that stubbornness on both sides that I'm seeing. One side is just more classy than the other I guess.
 
May 28, 2013 12:46 PM

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1+1=3

Can be correct, it only depends on agreement on symbols meaning.
 
May 28, 2013 12:49 PM

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Let's put up irational numbers too!
I'm sick of so much math even if its so simple....
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May 28, 2013 12:52 PM

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OP you could also have used this pic :D (would beat typing all that haha)



and to post ontopic, for me all that matters is i enjoy things i enjoy and i'm not going around shoving it in everybody's face to prove my opinion is the correct one. and i don't like people trying to prove their opinion is absolute (nobody can even do that, as proven in this topic)

when somebody says clannad AS' ending was bullshit or not explained they ARE wrong -_- it's been explained countless times all over the forum... people even REWATCHED the whole damn thing and came to the conclusion it was indeed explained. still we are not saying that clannad AS is "the best" no we are just saying "you are wrong about the ending" why should we care if you like it or not, just don't try kicking it when you don't have a leg to stand on.
 
May 28, 2013 1:00 PM

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BloodyNightsky said:


 
May 28, 2013 1:07 PM

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Shocked said:
BloodyNightsky said:




How ironic that the internet is made of.........that forbbiden word for me in these moments.
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May 28, 2013 1:08 PM

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Arararraragi-kun said:

They are objective because they don't involve the personal feelings and enjoyment of that said critic? Yes or no? If Yes then that's my whole argument that it's not enough to make the opinion
objective, you have a different definition of objective from me so it seems.


Whether or not something is picked up on by the audience is subjective; whether or not a certain characteristic is present, can be demonstrated objectively. If the deus ex machina, for example, is defined, its presence in a work becomes an objective matter. Then it becomes a question of whether or not that quality is bad. If we can reason why that quality is a mark of bad writing, then we can objectively say this work is objectively bad insofar as it contains bad writing.

What you cannot say is that something as a whole is objectively bad, because a work is not merely the sum of its parts.

Arararraragi-kun said:

I reposted because I wanted you to explain how can the important aspects of the story, characters etc be objective.


If I wanted to make a comment about them then I would have done so; and if you expect me to provide a response to it then you should at least do me the courtesy of responding to mine. In any case, there are similar examples which can be given for the examples you cited.

Characters for example are objectively bad if they behave inconsistently just to benefit the plot. For example if a character is normally quite cautious and reserved, for him to suddenly and without explanation act in a brash and brazen manner, at the moment when such behaviour is just what is needed, that is an example of bad character development, and is objectively bad because it is jarring for the audience (provided they are able to pick up on it).

The case is less strong for things like art and music, because both can be expressed freely- although there are certain patterns in music which naturally instill certain emotions in humans.Anyway, stories are different to music and art because they have to make sense; if they do not, and provided that the audience notices it, it will always generate a negative reaction from them, even if they like the work on the whole.
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May 28, 2013 1:10 PM

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Shocked said:
@Orsonius

Well alright, I'm happy. Again though, to bring it back to anime, it just feels like if someone ever uses the words "I believe," "I think," or "I like," it sets off a landmine or something. Suddenly, they're a pleb if they can't defend themselves rhetorically and with evidence to back it up. Even then, if that anime is deemed "objectively bad," even if it's legitly bad, it's a foregone conclusion.

Again, disregarding rabid fans etc, but there's still that stubbornness on both sides that I'm seeing. One side is just more classy than the other I guess.


True, it's all semantics though.
just stay honest, say I liked X because a), b), c).
Ignore the ones that talk shit, they are the plebs. As long as they can't point out things they disagree and offer a better solution there is nothing to complain.

Of course you can say "objectively bad" ironically. Everyone does that.

Ekaros said:
1+1=3

Can be correct, it only depends on agreement on symbols meaning.


I cannot say you are not right but... really?
We agree that 2 means oo and 3 means ooo.
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May 28, 2013 1:23 PM

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Ekaros said:
1+1=3

Can be correct, it only depends on agreement on symbols meaning.


Except, we all know the international numeral system standard, so it doesn't apply.
Aliis si licet, tibi non licet.
 
May 28, 2013 1:26 PM

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I think the problem here is a lack of understanding. Something cannot be objectively good or bad as good and bad are subjective concepts.

In some African tribes female circumcision at age 13 is something that both parents and the children themselves look forward to and consider "good". Objectively, all we can say is that yes, a girl is in fact having that procedure performed. That's it. Done. Any opinion, value statement, point of view, that's all subjective.

Objectively, we can say "this story features these characters doing this thing at that time for that reason". That's it. Done. If we say "the pace is fast" or "the characterization is deep and complex" those are not objective qualities of a work. They're opinions. It doesn't make them any less valid to the opinion holder (which I think is part of the reason people try to prove the objective goodness of something they like, to validate their opinion) but it also in no way makes them objective fact. It's not an arguement, it's the proper use of these terms.

And again, as there is no such thing as objectively good or bad fiction, one's opinion can not be more valid than any other's. So chill out everyone.
Nowhere in the Humpty Dumpty nursery rhyme does it state that Humpty is an egg.
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May 28, 2013 1:26 PM

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sherlock5545 said:

I am absolutely objective if I say "2 + 2 = 4", this is proven, it's a fact.


 
May 28, 2013 1:27 PM

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sherlock5545 said:
Ekaros said:
1+1=3

Can be correct, it only depends on agreement on symbols meaning.


Except, we all know the international numeral system standard, so it doesn't apply.


Something like, we can change the rules of the game as we go along, but there's gotta be an established set of agreed upon rules before we can start playing.
 
May 28, 2013 1:46 PM

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Why... not?

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Anyway,a story cant be objectively in no way.The story itself is full of subjectivity from the author and the protagonist.I mean if you want to see an objectively "story" look for documentaries on NatGeo or Discovery Channel.
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May 28, 2013 1:48 PM

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Ghostony said:
Coming from the guy with ONLY 1's and 10's in his anime list...

How do you know that?
Though, I suppose I could assume so with my 20.8% compatibility with the OP.
(Don't think this matters anyway with the topic at hand)

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
May 28, 2013 1:50 PM

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Tavor said:
Ghostony said:
Coming from the guy with ONLY 1's and 10's in his anime list...

How do you know that?)
It used to not be private. He only rates either a 10 or 1.
 
May 28, 2013 1:53 PM

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IntroverTurtle said:
It used to not be private. He only rates either a 10 or 1.

Ah I see.
Whatever floats his boat.

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
May 28, 2013 1:57 PM

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Chakaara said:
sherlock5545 said:

I am absolutely objective if I say "2 + 2 = 4", this is proven, it's a fact.




I know, my dear Watson. Let's get our hands occupied with it.
Aliis si licet, tibi non licet.
 
May 28, 2013 2:03 PM

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Forgetfulness said:
sherlock5545 said:
Chakaara said:
sherlock5545 said:

I am absolutely objective if I say "2 + 2 = 4", this is proven, it's a fact.




I know, my dear Watson. Let's get our hands occupied with it.


I like how well your username fits this

No shit Sherlock.

Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is.
 
May 28, 2013 2:03 PM

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I don't like how this becoming about me again, nice Turtle thanks for your awesome contribution to the topic.

Tavor said:
Though, I suppose I could assume so with my 20.8% compatibility with the OP.

That is rather high.
MaedhrostheTall said:
because they know how story mechanics work as opposed to other people who do not. there are right and wrong ways to write stories.

if you just walk up to a hollywood script reader with your weak, badly written script, they won't read past page 1 and will toss it back in your face.

but if we're getting into art "appearance", that's just people being ignorant of the subjective nature of the icon.

:-) this is not a face, $ this is not a symbol for money, etc.

Know the story mechanics ? everyone does it doesn't take a genius to understand stuff like these. No they would toss it in your face because they think it's terrible and won't sell but if it something like twilight then it will pass.
 
May 28, 2013 2:05 PM

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MaedhrostheTall said:
there are right and wrong ways to write stories


Those are agreed upon subjective evaluations. Like murder and rape is wrong. There are reasons why they are wrong and we can explain them, but they are no objectively wrong, we just happen to all agree on them (well except murderers and rapists).

Same applies to the "right and wrong ways to tell a story".
Though in contrast to morals, most people have empathy and don't need the rule to not murder and rape in order to not do it, but there is no inherent sense for good and bad story writing/telling.

This is learned.
Just look at kids shows, those are mostly simplistic. Because kids haven't yet learned what we think are the standards of story telling.

Story telling is an art, just like painting or playing music.
There are rules, but those are arbitrary and not based on objective things.
4/4 is not better than 7/8.
expersionism is not better than surrealism.

Same applies for any kind of story telling.

Though I don't argue about "mistakes"
A wrong played 4/4 is still wrong.
A piece of crap on paper is still a piece of crap.

Though that's probably what you call artistic freedom.
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May 28, 2013 2:11 PM

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Arararraragi-kun said:
I don't like how this becoming about me again, nice Turtle thanks for your awesome contribution to the topic.
Anytime, though it was Ghostotony that brought you up, I just answered a question.
 
May 28, 2013 2:14 PM

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IntroverTurtle said:
Arararraragi-kun said:
I don't like how this becoming about me again, nice Turtle thanks for your awesome contribution to the topic.
Anytime, though it was Ghostotony that brought you up, I just answered a question.

Just wanted to use your gif seemed fitting.
 
May 28, 2013 2:23 PM

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I don't get why it matters so much rofl
 
May 28, 2013 2:27 PM

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I think I get what they're doing.. but I never can understand the why.

I don't see it as objectifying, but rather they'l talk as if the plot is the most important part of an anime.
Despite the fact that most anime (the way I see it) are focused on character-ego with plot being second or third priority. Because of this I rarely read reviews since they usually just make me enjoy a show less if I do.

The "No Character development" rant VS the "Acted out of character" rant.
Animators just can't win.
sexual incest in nisomonogatari - no one bats an eye
romance incest in SAO - everyone loses their minds
 
May 28, 2013 2:32 PM

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Nikin said:
I don't get why it matters so much rofl

It doesn't the same way their opinion as a whole doesn't matter just a topic of discussion.
 
May 28, 2013 2:37 PM

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Orsonius said:
Those are agreed upon subjective evaluations. Like murder and rape is wrong. There are reasons why they are wrong and we can explain them, but they are no objectively wrong, we just happen to all agree on them (well except murderers and rapists).


While almost nothing is truly objective I'd argue that there is a certain point at which the minority is negligible. A good example is the one you used with rapist and murderers, everyone is going to agree it's wrong except for some of those who commit it.



I don't think anyone would argue that the voice acting in the above video is terrible because I would assume most people would define good voice acting as natural, smooth, and flowing. With those standards in place I can argue why the video does not portray them. So realistically, I don't think the 1% who define good voice acting as stiff, forced, and awkward really matter. Yes, I just equated people who like the Bible Black dub to rapist and murders.
Modified by Shrabster, May 28, 2013 2:46 PM


 
May 28, 2013 2:43 PM

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Shrabster said:


I don't think anyone would argue that the voice acting in the above video is terrible because I would assume most people would define good voice acting as natural, smooth, and flowing. With those standards in place I can argue why the video does not portray them. So realistically, I don't think the 1% who consider good voice acting to be stiff, forced, and awkward really matter.
That's pretty much the best way to sum it up. This is why I can't stand when someone says, "Watching dubs/subs is the right way, the other way is wrong and the people who watch it the other way are wrong," when a lot of people watch and enjoy both.
This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion.
 
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