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#1
May 27, 2013 11:10 AM
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Faerie Queen

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With the release of the guidelines, the need has arisen to more clearly define the rules for currently airing series. In this thread, I would like to pose my opinion of how the guidelines for these series should be restructured.

The situation:
This discussion will focus on reviews of TV series 1-2 cours/seasons in length because this is the source of many of our review issues.
We currently have three camps of review writers/readers on MAL:
  1. Reviews should be posted at any time once the series has started airing (0%)
  2. Users should be restricted from posting reviews for 12/24 ep series until the show has finished airing (100%)
  3. Reviews should only be allowed to be written after X% of a series has been seen, where the value of X varies: 25/50/75% for any length; 100% for 12 eps, 50% for 24 eps; etc. (X%)

What is the problem with early episode reviews?


Why can't writers just wait until the series is finished before writing reviews?


Then the best compromise is allowing reviews after X episodes, right?


Why don't you just code in a preview section to the site?


Speaking of coding, what about restricting reviews until X episodes?


So, back to the guidelines: what solution do you propose?
First, let's give a summary of the facts we've discussed so far:
  1. Some viewers like to read previews to decide what to watch this season.
  2. However, previews written within the very first few episodes are mostly limited to commenting on the enjoyment of the series and quickly lose their integrity after 1 or 2 episodes.
  3. While X% sounds like the best compromise, any definition of X% will ultimately be arbitrary and will not be a good fit for all anime series.
  4. The closer X% comes to 100%, the more credible previews are to readers after the series has completed airing; however, X% should be minimized to allow previews for season viewers who find merit in them.
  5. The closer X% comes to 0%, the higher the chance that the review page is littered with previews that have lost their purpose (directing season viewers), making it difficult for a reader to later peruse the review section of the anime page (since 9/10 previews are not updated).

Thus, I would like to propose that:

a. X be chosen as the minimal episode count seen to accurately recommend season viewers anime series:
  • the 4th episode has been viewed for TV series one cours (~13 eps) in length;
  • the 6th episode has been viewed for TV series two cours (~26 eps) in length;
  • the 10th episode has been viewed for TV series four cours (~52 eps) or longer in length.
These numbers were ball-parked around 25% of the series, while considering the content of the first few episodes of popular anime in retrospect.

b. previews will be removed after the series has completed airing, unless:
  • the series was dropped by the user past the half-way mark; or,
  • it is less likely that full reviews will be written for this series because of demographics, number of users, etc.
Our goal is to keep the review section of the anime page credible after the series has completed airing, without eliminating all reviews from the anime page. Thus, less popular entries with few reviews will be evaluated on a case-by-case basis and it may be that not every single preview is removed from these series.

In the case of previews which are removed, users will be PM'd their review asking them to submit a full review if they are so inclined. Please note that this will occur after the review has been removed. The review guidelines state that reviews should be posted in their final form: you should not be editing your 5/12 episode review to post a complete review, carrying over votes from an entirely different review text.

Actual guidelines:


At present, I think this is the best compromise for all parties while still retaining credibility of the review feature for anime pages once the season has finished airing. For the next 5 weeks - the remainder of the current anime season - we are interested in feedback from the community on this proposed solution.

A note on behaviour:
Any baiting, drama-inciting or off-topic posts that do not adhere to the Site & Forum Guidelines will be treated accordingly and removed. Furthermore, please refrain from posting long-winded arguments only for the purpose of restating your own opinion. While discussions are welcome, please remember that you have your chance to say your piece as rightfully as other users have a chance to say theirs.

Thank you for reading this entire post before replying.



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#2
May 27, 2013 12:36 PM

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Why not just allow p/reviews at the episode count in which the user's score would be calculated into the series' average, which is 1/5 (or with a 5.2 divisor)? That means 3/12-13, 5/24-26, 10/50, etc. I would also say this should be the minimum that a review stays in which the reviewer dropped the series, especially for 50+ series.

And what about series that go for a while without a confirmed length?
 
#3
May 31, 2013 6:06 PM
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Redfoxoffire said:
Why not just allow p/reviews at the episode count in which the user's score would be calculated into the series' average, which is 1/5 (or with a 5.2 divisor)? That means 3/12-13, 5/24-26, 10/50, etc. I would also say this should be the minimum that a review stays in which the reviewer dropped the series, especially for 50+ series.

And what about series that go for a while without a confirmed length?


I like the idea of using a divisor depending on the episode count. For series that run on for a long time without an actual "confirmed length" ideally would be after 10-12 episodes. Generally a T.V series average length is announced and when one's not announced it's usually an ongoing series.

I also agree with the 50+ series, where a minimum of watched episodes was seen before actually doing a review, though, this can easily be bypassed by just typing in the episode straight from 1 -> [Minimum # to review.]
 
#4
Jun 25, 2013 1:28 PM
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Faerie Queen

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The numbers you gave using a 1/5 divisor are almost identical to the numbers I gave "ball-parking" around 25%. My logic is you need to wait a slight bit longer to review a shorter series than you do a longer series (since it's less time in overall).

Redfoxoffire said:
I would also say this should be the minimum that a review stays in which the reviewer dropped the series, especially for 50+ series.
We have minimized the number of episodes a user needs to see to write a review to allow for the previews that some of the community is desiring. While this may be enough to review an episodic slice of life show that has been dropped, it's not really enough to review a plot-driven show takes time to build up. Setting half-way for dropped series upon the series' completion makes these dropped reviews more useful.

Redfoxoffire said:
And what about series that go for a while without a confirmed length?
We rarely do not know a series' estimated length by the 3rd-6th episode, unless it's a long running series or obscure (that no one will review anyway).


It has now been four weeks of the five that I said this thread would remain open.

Are these all the opinions the community has on this?



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#5
Jun 26, 2013 11:34 AM

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I think I posted this in the other thread but basically, I agree with most points in this thread.

There also needs to be an implement more staff members very soon to be added for this situation too as I think the work to deal with all of this could be a hassle.
Modified by Stark700, Jun 26, 2013 11:52 AM
 
#6
Jun 28, 2013 11:13 AM

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So kinda curious but when are some of the reviews going to be removed soon according to the new guidelines? Most of the series from Spring Lineup are finishing airing or will be finishing in the next few days. I haven't seen any changes yet and according to the guidelines, a few more them deserves a removal imo.
Modified by Stark700, Jun 28, 2013 11:58 AM
 
#7
Jun 29, 2013 7:54 AM
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I personally see no problem with previews after 1 or 2 episodes and would therefore strongly vote for b) because they only get annoying when more episodes are already out or the series has finished and they aren't updated. of course I also dislike it when 1 or 2 episodes are reviewed and the reviewer pretends to already know everything there is to know about the series, but that's something one can easily read between the lines and just ignore those previews. When a new season starts there are always a couple of series where I'm unsure as to if I want to watch them or not and I'd rather be able to decide that within the first 2-3 weeks than after 25% of the series has aired already, though admittedly for 12 episode series it doesn't make much of a difference when 25% IS 3 episodes. But still I am of the opinion that in many cases the impression after 1-2 episodes can already tell me the level of enjoyment I can expect from a series, especially in genres that are not plot-orientated, like for example comedy/slice-of-life. That is my experience at least. So I would find it regretable for previews in that range to completely disappear. As long as they don't stay unfinished forever (or get removed if they do) I'd like to keep them.

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#8
Jun 29, 2013 2:42 PM

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Previews can always be written in the discussion forums, people seem to forget that exists or something. I don't see why there is even the question of letting people write 1 episode reviews.

So I think it is fine the way it is now, which is option a. I really don't think it is feasible for previews to be made and then removed later on, seeing as there is a lot of work for the mods to do already (some reported reviews not being removed and such).

Also, this is just a guess, but aren't anime with fewer number of episodes far more abundant than those with 50 - 3 digit episodes? I don't think its a good idea to have the 25% idea just because we have a few long running anime.
 
#9
Jun 29, 2013 3:12 PM
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Kuradachi said:
Previews can always be written in the discussion forums, people seem to forget that exists or something. I don't see why there is even the question of letting people write 1 episode reviews.


The episode discussion threads especially of ongoing series are the deepest pits of Hell on MAL, I'd absolutely hate to get involved in the shitstorms there (that would only increse if previews were limited to that area) just to get some first impressions at the beginning of a new season.

Listen, everybody wants change, don't nobody want to change though
don't nobody want to pray, till they got something to pray for
now everybody's gonna die, but don't everybody live though
 
Jul 3, 2013 2:59 AM
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Faerie Queen

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This suggestion topic is now CLOSED.

I will leave it unlocked for the time being, but I will be modifying the review guidelines as proposed in my first post. Thank you to the few that did provide some kind of feedback.

paean said:
I don't think the lack of responses points to a lack of interest, it's just that you more or less covered the full range of the topic with your post.
I hope you are correct. It would have been nice if people who agreed with the suggestion (even if they had nothing to add) had posted with this as well. But I am aware that this usually does not happen.

paean said:
How about manga? Since those don't usually have a set finish date from the start.
This was addressed in the "Actual Guidelines" spoiler tag:
Unfortunately, anything other than TV series are too difficult to write hard guidelines for.
Modified by Kineta, Jul 3, 2013 3:09 AM



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Jul 3, 2013 9:01 AM

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Kineta said:
paean said:
I don't think the lack of responses points to a lack of interest, it's just that you more or less covered the full range of the topic with your post.
I hope you are correct. It would have been nice if people who agreed with the suggestion (even if they had nothing to add) had posted with this as well. But I am aware that this usually does not happen.
Well then let me say, I agree. I actually saw this the day that it was made, but felt I couldn't contribute anything different since you had covered everything. So I decided to leave it to the people more interested in a discussion, which surprisingly weren't that many.
 
Mar 30, 2015 9:44 PM
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(Edit: I just realized this thread was from 2013. This is even weirder since this is the first review I've ever had removed for this guideline violation. Seems arbitrary.)

My review was removed because the series ended, and I updated my review to reflect that.

Why? It was probably in the bottom 25% of reviews for this series anyway and no one was reading it.

A majority of the highest-rated, highest-quality contributed reviews on this site were written when the shows were airing and then updated over time. I'm not particularly mad about the specific review that was removed, because it lets me resubmit it for the higher score is deserves, but if this were done to all reviews that retroactively fell under this guideline it would be awful. Now there's going to be 50 Cross Ange reviews resubmitted at the same time? Who is this helping...?

"Upon a series completion, please re-submit rather than edit the episode count. Editing gives on an unfair edge over users who wait before submitting a complete review."

Unfair advantage? This is stupid for two reasons:
1. This isn't a game, no one cares who has an "advantage". I don't get MAL Premium Points for having awesome reviews here and no one wants to publish me in a scientific journal because of my Panty&Stocking review either. My reviews being high-ranked is nothing but me spending my time and energy on giving quality content to your site, for free, and deleting my shit for no reason isn't doing anything but making me weary of contributing.
2. I've had plenty of #1 reviews usurped over time by better reviews that were written long after mine. The system already worked, and I'm confused.
Modified by Nyron, Mar 30, 2015 10:01 PM
 
Feb 4, 2016 7:32 PM

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Nyron said:
"Upon a series completion, please re-submit rather than edit the episode count. Editing gives on an unfair edge over users who wait before submitting a complete review."

Glad I saw this. Now I have to either wait to post my ERASED review or just choose to post and resubmit upon completion. If this happened to you, I expect the current first few previews for ERASED to be removed upon completion. I'm kind of glad this rule exists, because it is a disadvantage for reviewers who actually wait til a series is finished.
 
Apr 8, 2017 6:05 PM
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I understand your policy, but anime that 52+ episode u have to wait for 10ep before doing a review has many problems. I do understand after 4 episode because the set up should be finished by then or a mini-arc is done for another one. But no avid anime casual watch the show if the first 4 episodes don't peak their interest or excit them because those first 4ep sets the tone and establishes the character personality. I always believed u should judge it from the first episode because they set up what kind of tone an anime wants example attack on titan, One Piece, One Punch, Rainbow, Paraycte, naruto and many others. Don't judge the anime as a whole but it suppose to peak your interest that boruto completely lacked so I made a review of the first episode because its stated many times this is for the new generation people who haven't watched naruto, ( I have but what they say is complete bullshit) I know people gonna watch it heck i still am but it was a bad episode with uninteresting characters from boruto first introduction not counting movie does nothing make me interested in the character but just that he's naruto's son.
 
Apr 9, 2017 1:07 AM

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Nerd_Zone1 said:
I understand your policy, but anime that 52+ episode u have to wait for 10ep before doing a review has many problems. I do understand after 4 episode because the set up should be finished by then or a mini-arc is done for another one. But no avid anime casual watch the show if the first 4 episodes don't peak their interest or excit them because those first 4ep sets the tone and establishes the character personality. I always believed u should judge it from the first episode because they set up what kind of tone an anime wants example attack on titan, One Piece, One Punch, Rainbow, Paraycte, naruto and many others. Don't judge the anime as a whole but it suppose to peak your interest that boruto completely lacked so I made a review of the first episode because its stated many times this is for the new generation people who haven't watched naruto, ( I have but what they say is complete bullshit) I know people gonna watch it heck i still am but it was a bad episode with uninteresting characters from boruto first introduction not counting movie does nothing make me interested in the character but just that he's naruto's son.


I also don't know what is the point of reviewing a show that is not finished...

You can't find a game review like that. You can't find a movie review like that. What is the point of reviewing something if that said anime didn't offer everything it can.



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Apr 9, 2017 5:10 AM

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Since they now allow to filter out such early reviews I don't see a problem with removing the episode requirement completely (1 episode or 0 episode ... if you dropped at the first half of 1st episode and don't want to add it to your list) should be enough.
 
Apr 9, 2017 8:47 PM
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Sasalx when I read a review especially in myanimelist look at the what episode they are upto, then seeing people's early thoughts, it's never an indication or how it is because u can also update your review like first 4 episode is awesome 9/10 then later u can edit and make it 7/10.

Anyways we got scores that can be changed within seconds, so having reviews to state why this is a certain score does help. Like seeing an anime that's above 8/10 in myanimelist u wonder why and how but no reviews are there to tell u, boruto was 8.5/10 but when i watched the episode it was nowhere near that episode, so i wanted to help someone decision if its worth waiting or watching right now.
 
Apr 5, 10:46 PM
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I understand why the general rule is put in place to remove any 1-3 episode reviews, but I think that this removes the choice of the consumers more than the producers of the content. If someone were to post a review in the earliest days of an anime, the count on their review will reflect that and the people reading those reviews will be aware of how little they have seen.
That said, I personally am very glad when I can be steered away from shows that I don't think will be worth my time at the beginning of the season so I can watch the shows that I think I'll enjoy and I believe many others are of this same mindset.
I think the general rule is holding on to the last breath of the three episode rule which strikes me a bit as gate-keeping with some people on top believing the "plebs" don't know good content when they see it.
I think there is middle ground to be tread on removing posts that are purely based on some personal reaction, but if reviews are based on some set of evidence, however short-sighted it may be, the readers should be able to decide their validity.
I personally will not continue to watch a show that I do not think is worth my time purely for the purpose of being able to "legally" write a review and I don't think episode reviews are going to fill the need that basic reviews do either.

Full disclosure I did recently post a review on a first episode(it was removed) because I had not properly done my research into community guidelines and that does motivate the writing of this post, but not the views in it.
 
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