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Tower of God not in the DB? [Please read the links in the first post]

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#1
Apr 28, 2013 9:06 AM

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Wondering why Tower of God is not in the database but other manhwa are?
Please read both post #19 and post #27.

----


Was this in the database? I'm pretty sure I added it to my manga list but I just noticed it wasn't there today. Has it been removed?

edit: I just noticed in the denied list it had been removed because it is a webcomic and isn't published.

This is very odd. I thought this databases purpose was to inform the community about other/similar content..
This "web comic" has to be some of the most appealing manga I have read and I would want it present on the database so others could enjoy it.

edit 2: What is the actual reasoning behind denying such material?


Mod Edit: Modified title for clarity and/or easier searching.
Modified by Kineta, Jan 11, 2016 12:16 PM
 
#2
Apr 28, 2013 5:47 PM

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It seems to be due to the belief that being published in Naver is not good enough to count as being published, which is kind of silly considering the artists are still paid professionals.

Being published in Naver is no different from being published in Young Jump Web Comics, which is considered acceptable while Naver is not. Naver IS still a publisher. And the database guidelines say that digitally distributed manga is fine, so why not manhwa?
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#3
Apr 29, 2013 9:54 AM

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I agree with you guys, it's really weird how stuff that's on naver doesn't count. It's a shame, because if it would gain even more publicity (though it's already becoming more and more popular) even more people could learn about this great series
 
#4
Apr 29, 2013 10:17 AM
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skeletonParty said:
Being published in Naver is no different from being published in Young Jump Web Comics.


Well, that's wrong already because Naver isn't a publisher.

Naver Comics (Hangul:네이버 만화,also called "webtoon"웹툰) is an area that provides Naver users with manhwa comics(webtoon) and original comic pieces. Most significantly, it offers comic book, genre fiction, and free webtoons. Users must pay publishers to use their comic book and genre fiction contents. On the other hand, free manhwa, webtoon, is provided by professional artists weekly for free. Moreover, Naver promotes amateurs to be writers of the comic series through the process of rising in status. Status tends to be raised by being selected as "Top Challenge Manhwa" after posting "Challenge Manhwa" as amateurs. Comic books and genre fiction are provided by choosing either a flat rate plan or a meter rate plan. However, the flat rate plan can sometimes be limited according to seminal works. Users can either buy each piece one by one or buy 1day/7day/30day flat rate plan to enjoy comics through that period. However, premium works can be limited to the flat rate plan by publishers. They must be paid by a credit provided by Naver, and it is called "Naver Coin". Naver Coins can be obtained by credit card payment, wire transfers, mobile phones, and gift cards that Naver accepts. It has a ratio of 1:1 with Korean currency. If users are interrupted while reading comics by system errors or maintenance, the interrupted periods will be paid back by doubling their hours.


It's a place for amateur artist to host their work in hopes of receiving official publication. When webcomics receive publication, they're broken down into official volumes.

If you want a webcomic added to the DB, just show us proof that physical copies are being produced.

Example: Noblesse. I wish there was a sticky for this...

Edit: Forgot to mention, the only reason we have it listed as a serialization is because it's easier to keep track of the webcomics that way.
Modified by KuroDubZero, Apr 29, 2013 10:50 AM
 
#5
Apr 29, 2013 12:41 PM

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My main question was why does it have to be published to be added?
 
#6
Apr 29, 2013 3:15 PM

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KuroDubZero said:
skeletonParty said:
Being published in Naver is no different from being published in Young Jump Web Comics.


Well, that's wrong already because Naver isn't a publisher.

It's a place for amateur artist to host their work in hopes of receiving official publication. When webcomics receive publication, they're broken down into official volumes.

...Except it isn't for amateur artists.

On the other hand, free manhwa, webtoon, is provided by professional artists weekly for free.

They are paid for their work and are professionals. There is no reason to not think of the webcomic section of Naver as a publisher.

http://www.koreaherald.com/common_prog/newsprint.php?ud=20121123000843&dt=2

If you want a webcomic added to the DB, just show us proof that physical copies are being produced.

But the database guidelines say that there are exceptions for digital manga, One-Punch Man is a good example of that. It is published in Young Jump Web Comics. There is no physical copy. It is accepted despite being officially considered a webcomic.

There is no difference between Young Jump Web Comics and Naver Webtoons.
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#7
Apr 29, 2013 6:41 PM
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skeletonParty said:
There is no reason to not think of the webcomic section of Naver as a publisher.


This isn't about thinking of them as a publisher. It's either they are or they aren't. There is no gray area. To begin with, webcomics were something that were not originally in the DB. It was only in recent years that the guidelines changed to allow the few officially published webcomics out there.

We are not a webcomic DB or will become one. The guidelines won't change because something is becoming popular or is popular (reminds me of how people want Avatar here). It's just how it is. You can either accept it or find another site that will allow you to list everything you want. For example: Mangaupdates.

skeletonParty said:
There is no difference between Young Jump Web Comics and Naver Webtoons.


*mindblown*

Edit:
Creo said:
My main question was why does it have to be published to be added?


I somewhat answered this in my above response.
Modified by KuroDubZero, Apr 29, 2013 7:29 PM
 
#8
Apr 29, 2013 7:41 PM

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KuroDubZero said:

skeletonParty said:
There is no difference between Young Jump Web Comics and Naver Webtoons.


*mindblown*


What is the difference then? They are both provided free for users while the company pays the author. Naver IS a publisher, albeit a digital one. Otherwise by your standards Young Jump Web Comics is not a publisher either. If you are saying popularity is not a basis for considering something "proper" publication, then Young Jump Web Comics is not a publisher either as they both do not offer physical copies and they offer their comics for free.

There seems to be some misinformation about who is able to publish a webtoon on Naver. Naver has three categories of webcomics.

Challenge Manhwa, which are for "anybody", which would just be considered an ordinary webcomic. Best Challenge, which are the best out of the Challenge Manhwa, but still not professional artists, and still not paid.

Then Webtoons, which are all paid professional artists. This is the digital equivalent of being serialized.

There is no reason to consider a webtoon on Naver any different from digitally distributed manga, and the Manga DB Guidelines pretty clearly say digitally distributed manga is okay.
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#9
Apr 29, 2013 8:04 PM
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I can already see no matter what I say, you're going to convince yourself Naver is a publisher.

All I can say is goodluck with that. Going to bed.
 
Apr 29, 2013 9:12 PM

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Can you just explain how it is any different from Young Jump Web Comics?

I'm willing to admit to being wrong but you're kind of just dismissing things sarcastically rather than at least trying to make the distinction clear.
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Apr 30, 2013 3:43 AM
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skeletonParty said:
Can you just explain how it is any different from Young Jump Web Comics Tonari no young jump?

Main reason why webtoons are not accepted is because webtoons are not considered manga. Simple. Also, don't confuse webtoon and webcomic, because they're two different things/


Tonari no Young Jump works(publishes) with the same principles as Gangan Online, Manga Life Win, Comic Meteor, Comic Polaris, etc etc. They publish manga like in normal magazine, but for free, just in a digital format. And later they are eventually (but there're exceptions) published in a physical format by legit company. But what's published on naver, you could compare it to doujinshi (google it) works. They are of different medium than the db was set up for. And, when they reach enough popularity, on naver main site, they then only get published in physical format.

If there wouldn't be any guidelines this site would be one giant mess, because people would want to have on their list everything, pixiv comics, doujinshi, fanzine, western webcomics, etc. But, this site is relevant on japanese anime and manga industry, with exceptions mentioned in guidelines.


Kineta said:
This is for good reason; otherwise anyone could draw a little stick-art comic and call it manga.



Also, you didn't do your research enough. As a matter of fact, Onepunch man IS published in physical format and there are 3 volumes available already.
Modified by svaax, Apr 30, 2013 3:54 AM
 
Apr 30, 2013 12:57 PM

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svaax said:
Tonari no Young Jump

It's pretty silly to insist on saying Tonari no Young Jump when they explicitly say "Young Jump Web Comics" on their official website. http://tonarinoyj.jp/

svaax said:
But what's published on naver, you could compare it to doujinshi (google it) works. They are of different medium than the db was set up for. And, when they reach enough popularity, on naver main site, they then only get published in physical format.


The Challenge Manhwa or Best Challenge sections could be considered doujinshi, yes. But the Webtoon section is exclusively for professional authors and the comics are digitally distributed by Naver in the same way a digital publication would be distributed. Naver also holds onto certain rights over the work as well.

They outright meet the dictionary definition of a digital publisher. There is no gray area.

Definition of PUBLISHER
: one that publishes something; especially : a person or corporation whose business is publishing

Definition of PUBLISH
a : to make generally known
b : to make public announcement of

a : to disseminate to the public
b : to produce or release for distribution; specifically : print 2
c : to issue the work of (an author)


svaax said:
Also, you didn't do your research enough. As a matter of fact, Onepunch man IS published in physical format and there are 3 volumes available already.


Neat. I admit to being wrong on this. But not all Young Jump Web Comics are put up for sale in volume format, such as Makai no Ossan (as far as I know) which is still here. And the manga DB guidelines specifically allow digitally distributed manga.
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May 9, 2013 1:29 PM

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So can there be some actual explanation as to why Naver is not considered a publisher? Because they meet every definition of a publisher.
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May 9, 2013 1:52 PM
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skeletonParty said:
But the database guidelines say that there are exceptions for digital manga, One-Punch Man is a good example of that. It is published in Young Jump Web Comics. There is no physical copy. It is accepted despite being officially considered a webcomic.

There is no difference between Young Jump Web Comics and Naver Webtoons.

There are 3 volumes of "One-Punch Man" on amazon. Almost all webcomic in Japan from big publishers are later sold in paper format.
 
May 9, 2013 2:14 PM
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skeletonParty said:
So can there be some actual explanation as to why Naver is not considered a publisher? Because they meet every definition of a publisher.

Because naver is not publishing in japan, and webcomic is not (web)manga?

anyway, read some of this. there were already tons of same questions, so most people probably don't bother themselves anymore to reply on what was already said countless of times.
 
May 9, 2013 4:06 PM

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RealBamboocha said:
There are 3 volumes of "One-Punch Man" on amazon. Almost all webcomic in Japan from big publishers are later sold in paper format.


I admitted to being wrong on this about One-Punch Man, but this is not the case with all Young Jump Web Comics such as Makai no Ossan.

svaax said:
skeletonParty said:
So can there be some actual explanation as to why Naver is not considered a publisher? Because they meet every definition of a publisher.


Because naver is not publishing in japan


Many manhwa publishers are not publishing in Japan. But they are publishing in Korea. Because they are manhwa and not manga. They meet literally every definition of a digital publisher. Manhwa are allowed and this should be no different.

svaax said:
and webcomic is not (web)manga?


The differing between webcomics and webmanga is one of semantics. Jump's official website refers to their "webmanga" as webcomics.

If that is the case then webtoons which have had physical releases should not be accepted either, because they are still "webcomics" and not "proper manhwa".

The database guidelines specifically allow digital manga to be released. Webtoons are digital manhwa. It is completely arbitrary to allow digital manga but not digital manhwa.

svaax said:
anyway, read some of this. there were already tons of same questions, so most people probably don't bother themselves anymore to reply on what was already said countless of times.


Just because something has been asked before does not make it any less valid of a question to pose.
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Jun 10, 2013 4:45 AM

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Not to sound like an asshole but I think your reason for exclusion isn't good enough. Saying that I appreciate the site and what it does.
 
Jun 11, 2013 9:11 PM

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It'd be nice to get at least SOME concise answer as to why Naver is not accepted as a publisher despite meeting every definition of a digital publisher. Instead it just seems to get ignored and pushed aside.
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Jun 27, 2013 2:28 AM
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I'm sorry that you haven't been given a clear and concise answer up until now. I believe the other mods were trying to explain things to you, but perhaps not in a way that is easily understood (since they've gone over this topic again and again).

skeletonParty said:
Can you just explain how [Naver] is any different from Young Jump Web Comics?

I'd like you to scroll to the very bottom of the Young Jump Web Comics website. On the bottom left you'll see one word in grey caps: SHUEISHA.

Young Jump Web Comics is not a publisher. Shueisha is the publisher who owns and operates Young Jump Web Comics, along with the weekly Young Jump Magazine and the imprint Young Jump Comics. This is why we allow manga that appears on the Young Jump Web Comics site, even if it has not yet been printed. This site is owned and maintained by a reputable publishing company in the industry. They will not allow any old webcomic that someone drew in an afternoon to appear under this label.

Naver is also not a publisher. We list them in our database under "Serialization" for the sole purpose of keeping track of these titles. But they are not a publisher. They do not publish the titles that appear in print themselves. They also are not owned by a reputable publishing company who prints these works for them either.

Noblesse is published by 드림북스(삼양출판사)
Nineteen, Twenty One is published by 발해북스
Pink Lady is published by 중앙북스
Annarasumanara is published by 소담

None of these webcomics that initially appeared on Naver are published by Naver. Thus, we do not recognise them as a publishing company, because they do not publish manhwa.

I hope this answers your question better now.



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Jun 27, 2013 8:52 PM

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Kineta said:
They will not allow any old webcomic that someone drew in an afternoon to appear under this label.


Neither does Naver. Webcomics are not the same as Webtoons by Naver's standards. Anything listed as a Webtoon on Naver is created by a paid professional artist. Random people cannot submit webtoons. There seems to be a huge misunderstanding about exactly how Naver's publishing system works.

Here is a dumb wall of text I posted in another thread explaining it:

Challenge Manhwa which are pretty much the equivalent of trade shows for amateurs. Anyone can submit Challenge Manhwa, they are not paid for it, it is more of a hobby.

Best Manhwa which are the best among Challenge Manhwa. Naver handpicks people from the Challenge Manhwa category to promote them to Best Manhwa. This simply means that they are growing in popularity. They are still essentially amateurs, they are still not paid by Naver. This is comparable to Akamaru Jump/Jump NEXT!. The most popular manhwa from this section are often promoted to webtoons.

Webtoons are exclusively professionals handpicked by Naver. They are often moved up to this category from Best Manhwa unless they are already an established manhwa artist/author. There is absolutely no reason not to think of this as an equivalent to being published as it is literally the exact same thing in a digital format (which the database specifically allows for).


EVERYTHING in the webtoons category is professionally made. Webtoon artists are paid by Naver in the same way as any other artist would be. Their work is distributd by Naver in the same way that any other publisher would, with the exception that they distribute solely online.

Kineta said:
None of these webcomics that initially appeared on Naver are published by Naver. Thus, we do not recognise them as a publishing company, because they do not publish manhwa.


An author can in fact have multiple publishers. I write shitty fantasy stories once in a while. I have multiple publishers, one for printed content and several different publishers for ebooks. Naver is a digital publisher. The fact that Naver is solely digital should not disparage the work of these authors who work until they break (literally, as in SIUs recent case).

I am not trying to be argumentative and I am sorry if I am coming across that way. However I feel that there is a general misunderstanding about the distinction between webcomic an webtoon, and the lack of that distinction is problematic. As I posted previously, Naver meets the dictionary definition of a publisher in the digital age, and webtoons meet the dictionary definition of being published.
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Jun 28, 2013 8:10 AM

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Thank God, I found this thread. I almost went crazy wondering why some of the web-comics are included in the MAL DB, while others are ignored.
It is really a pity that ToG is not included. And I believe there will come time, it will be eventually added.
At least the position of MAL administration is clear.
So I have a question for you, skeletonParty. Is there any way to prove that Naver is actually a publisher. Not because they distribute manga.First of all they have to determine themselves as ones. Secondly, there are some rights and obligations gained when becoming a publisher. For instance, a publisher bears responsibility for any content they distribute, they also take care of the whole processing procedures, as well as obtain certain copyright.
If this way no good, maybe it is time to revise the MAL guidelines over once again? Judging by the structure of Naver you described, a webtoon is indeed, not an amateur's place. Is there a way to prove that? Maybe there is some disclaimer, or T&C?
We live in a digital world. Personally I think, it is too late rely on the old meaning of the word "publishing", but whichever meaning we'd use, the legal part of it would still remain.
 
Jun 28, 2013 5:33 PM

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zybactik said:
So I have a question for you, skeletonParty. Is there any way to prove that Naver is actually a publisher. Not because they distribute manga.First of all they have to determine themselves as ones. Secondly, there are some rights and obligations gained when becoming a publisher. For instance, a publisher bears responsibility for any content they distribute, they also take care of the whole processing procedures, as well as obtain certain copyright.


Besides the fact that they meet the dictionary definition of a publisher?

Translation from their website in broken English as I had to rely on multiple poor web translations.

What is Chelsea's Web Toon cartoon service,
Naver cartoon service and formally signed a licensing agreement with a professional writer
Installment on the specified day of the week to work on a regular basis which means comics.

Naver Web Toon as the day of the week offers a different cartoon.


Webtoon authors DO sign licensing agreements. Naver agrees to distribute and promote their work in exchange for a regular work schedule, just like any other publisher.

zybactik said:
Judging by the structure of Naver you described, a webtoon is indeed, not an amateur's place. Is there a way to prove that? Maybe there is some disclaimer, or T&C?


From their FAQ (once again broken English):

How can a writer Web Toon series can be? A professional writer Web Toon comic artists, but consists, promoted through the Naver comic amateur writer Web Toon comic strips can be a writer. First [ Challenge in the work of registered through the completion of the work, and the popularity. And they lifted up their best challenge in the precedent. This [ best challenge in the popular writer was promoted again after being selected as the author of the Web Toon the official debut is possible.


The only people that are web toon authors are licensed professionals who are paid for their work.

All of this is from their FAQ here: http://help.naver.com/ops/step2/faq.nhn?faqId=11858&fcatid=12372#도움말보기

They also explain the differences between Challenge Manhwa, Best Manhwa, and Web Toons but it is pretty much as I said previously. Challenge Manhwa are amateurs, Best Manhwa are the best amongst amateurs, Web Toons are licensed professional artists who are paid.

Naver Web Toons meet the definition of a publisher.
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Jun 29, 2013 1:25 AM

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You didn't get me.
There should be a disclaimer or a web-site policy for the liability rights concerning authors.
The point I'm trying to pin down here is that Naver has to be a registered publisher in order to get or provide license for something. Not just a general meaning of "publisher". Why is it important? Once again, because the publisher, first of all bears certain responsibility for what is distributed under their trademark, they bear responsibility for the quality of the materials provided. WordPress is not considered a publisher.
This is an example of digital publisher with Liability rights disclosure (sorry it,s a bit out of the topic, but the essence of it is the same):
http://www.elsevier.com/journal-authors/author-rights-and-responsibilities#rights
Also here, there is not a word, that Naver consider themselves a publisher:
http://www.naver.com/rules/disclaimer.html
Moreover, if the translation is correct on that page, they say that there is no specific warranty in regards to information provided.

Though I'd be happy if some of the web-comics from Naver would be added to MAL, I understand the administrations position at the same time.
1. If they let the ToG or something else from there to slip in here, that creates a precedent. And there will be dozense of other series, genres, formats targeting the loophole created.
2. Except for a couple of decent titles on Naver, which are not yet handled by official publisher, there are tons of sh*t there as well. And it will pour on MAL together with the few jewels. The administration is trying to maintain specific level of content on MAL. It is in their right to do so. Therefore them relying on official and reputable publishers is pretty understandable. Like in scientific publication.



skeletonParty said:

Webtoon authors DO sign licensing agreements. Naver agrees to distribute and promote their work in exchange for a regular work schedule, just like any other publisher.

I am pretty concerned about that licensing agreement you mentioned earlier. Are there any other details?

The only people that are web toon authors are licensed professionals who are paid for their work.


You are right, they are definitely professionals, but to call them licensed, there should be more details regarding the contract.
 
Jun 29, 2013 1:36 AM

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Oh, how I would rejoice on the day Tower of God gets added in the database.



 
Jun 29, 2013 4:38 PM

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zybactik said:
You didn't get me.
There should be a disclaimer or a web-site policy for the liability rights concerning authors.
The point I'm trying to pin down here is that Naver has to be a registered publisher in order to get or provide license for something. Not just a general meaning of "publisher". Why is it important? Once again, because the publisher, first of all bears certain responsibility for what is distributed under their trademark, they bear responsibility for the quality of the materials provided. WordPress is not considered a publisher.
This is an example of digital publisher with Liability rights disclosure (sorry it,s a bit out of the topic, but the essence of it is the same):
http://www.elsevier.com/journal-authors/author-rights-and-responsibilities#rights
Also here, there is not a word, that Naver consider themselves a publisher:
http://www.naver.com/rules/disclaimer.html


There is no such thing as a "registered publisher". Anyone can be a publisher. The only requirement of being a publisher is distributing work. And while it is obviously ridiculous to accept basement publications by random people, a publication by the largest search engine in South Korea is a pretty legitimate thing.

Naver also happens to meet the legal definition of a publisher in addition to the dictionary definition.

Publishing is the act of distributing or otherwise making public a visual or literary work. The key players in publishing are publishers and authors. Publishers are those persons or organizations that dispense information to the public.


Not all publishing companies use liability rights disclosure and I don't know a thing about Korean law. Copyright laws and such are not universal. Laws on publishing are not universal. In this case it would most likely be a part of their licensing contract, which is kept private, which is fairly standard for publishing contracts.

zybactik said:
Moreover, if the translation is correct on that page, they say that there is no specific warranty in regards to information provided.


There is actually a warranty in regards to information provided, but it refers to Naver as a whole instead of Naver Comics. In addition you're applying the American legal system to a Korean website. Like I said before, I don't know a thing about the Korean legal system, but I'm fairly certain that things would not be exactly the same.

From what I can find about Korean liability law, publishers have very little liability concerning their products and the liability is instead with the individual author.

zybactik said:
1. If they let the ToG or something else from there to slip in here, that creates a precedent. And there will be dozense of other series, genres, formats targeting the loophole created.


No because they already meet the current guidelines. Naver has a limited selection of webtoons. It'd be no different from suddenly allowing any other publisher. I am not saying every webcomic on Naver should be accepted, they should not be, only webtoons as they are filtered handpicked content.

zybactik said:
2. Except for a couple of decent titles on Naver, which are not yet handled by official publisher, there are tons of sh*t there as well. And it will pour on MAL together with the few jewels. The administration is trying to maintain specific level of content on MAL. It is in their right to do so. Therefore them relying on official and reputable publishers is pretty understandable. Like in scientific publication.


Anything that is considered a webtoon meets at least a certain standard of quality. It is filtered and handpicked content. There is tons of random shit in the Challenge Manhwa section and Best Manhwa section sure, but no one is arguing for those to be added as the creators are not licensed or paid. The content that this would allow is pretty specific.

zybactik said:
skeletonParty said:

Webtoon authors DO sign licensing agreements. Naver agrees to distribute and promote their work in exchange for a regular work schedule, just like any other publisher.

I am pretty concerned about that licensing agreement you mentioned earlier. Are there any other details?


Not many details due to the fact that licensing agreements and contracts are kept private. It most likely differs depending on the author.


zybactik said:
You are right, they are definitely professionals, but to call them licensed, there should be more details regarding the contract.


Their own website specifically says that they sign a licensing agreement once they become webtoon authors. Licensing contracts are kept private, which is standard.
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Jun 30, 2013 9:40 AM

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So the thing we are left with is to plead and persuade the MAL admins to add web-toons into the list.
 
Jul 1, 2013 5:45 AM
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skeletonParty, you keep saying the guidelines specifically allow digital publishers, but as I said in my previous post they do not. Perhaps there is a misunderstanding in the wording that we should clarify, but as I wrote them myself and revised them with the other manga moderators, I can assure you they do not. The example used in the guidelines for digital media (GanGan Online) is again owned by a reputable publishing company (Square Enix).

Naver is not owned by a reputable publishing company. Naver does not publish manhwa in hard print and distribute them through typical manhwa sellers. Naver may meet your definition of a digital publisher, but we do not allow digital publishers that are not owned by a reputable publishing company into the database.

I was not trying to degrade the webtoon artists on Naver in my previous post. I'm sorry if you interpreted it this way. But please understand that Naver has no credibility in our eyes as a publisher. I can draw up a license contract with my best friend and post her comics on the internet, too. And she can work herself into the ground to meet the stipulations I give her. But I am not a reputable publishing company, even though I may be publishing her work digitally. Of course her work would be OEL (which we do not allow in the database), so let's discuss a Japanese example.

Pixiv is a Japanese community for artists which specialises in hosting images and comics. Many professional artists use pixiv to host some of their works and recently a comic was even licensed and serialised in Young King (Monthly) by Shounen Gahousha. Pixiv currently does not pay any of these artists. However, even if they did decide to move to the exact same system that Naver uses now, we would still not add these comics to our database. This is because they do not meet our Manga DB Guidelines. Pixiv is neither a publisher nor owned by one, even though they certainly specialise in art.

If a similar situation were to happen in Japan, we would possibly re-think our guidelines (though I cannot say that we would change them). But it's not happening. This situation does not exist in Japan. And manga published in Japan for the Japanese market is the focus of our database.

Manhwa is not our focus. Manhwa is an off-shoot that we debated on striking from the database when we removed OEL. My stats are a few years old, but at that time <5% of the DB were manhwa entries and <10% of these entries had more than 10 users. This means <0.5% of the database were manhwa entries that were even read by MAL users. We don't even have romanisation guidelines for these titles (which are mostly listed now in English) or authors because we cannot find any manga moderators with even basic Korean skills to help us write them.

We considered adjusting our rules for Naver when this situation first began with Noblesse. But we decided not to then and we have not been given a good enough reason to change that decision. High quality works will be published by reputable publishing companies and then they will be added to the database. If Tower of God is as good as everyone says, then it will eventually be published as well. The other works that Naver hosts as "webtoons"? I'm not sure.

In summary:
- Naver is not a reputable publishing company in the manhwa industry. Naver is a search portal.
- While Naver may meet your definition of a digital publisher, we do not allow digital-only publishers' works into our database.
- We have rethought our guidelines in the past, but we have chosen to not modify them.
- This largely has to do with the fact that manhwa is not the focus of our database and we have no way to determine Naver's credibility.
- Once these works are published by reputable companies, they will be added to the database.

I can sympathise with users wanting to add these webtoons to their lists - especially because scanlation groups they follow are releasing these works. But other users want to add doujinshi released at Comiket and other users want to add OEL and other users want to add Avatar. We need to draw a line somewhere so that we can aim for a comprehensive database in the specific area we decide to focus on.



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Jul 1, 2013 5:03 PM

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And that is the concise answer I was looking for, thank you. While I do not believe that digital publishing makes a company less reputable, I wholly understand if the decision is just to outright not allow digital only series to be added.

My misunderstanding of physical copies being an actual requirement was because that is nowhere in the Manga DB Guidelines. The only reference to physical vs. digital was:

Kineta said:
Digital Media
if electronically distributed by a company known for publishing digital manga (ex. GanGan Online).


Which does not say anything about a physical requirement. So I'm fine with it if those are the clear-cut rules but they really are not made clear in any way in the guidelines. There is no mention of physical print being required for the sites definition of a publisher. I understand if those are the rules, but like I said they're not made clear at all.

Kineta said:
If a similar situation were to happen in Japan, we would possibly re-think our guidelines (though I cannot say that we would change them). But it's not happening. This situation does not exist in Japan. And manga published in Japan for the Japanese market is the focus of our database.


Well this situation is somewhat happening in Japan as well with things like Young Jump Web Comics, not all of which are printed (such as Makai no Ossan), though I agree it is not the exact same situation as that is still a subset of Shueisha. This will most likely be a big issue in the near future though, as the digital age is rapidly approaching.

Kineta said:


In summary:
- Naver is not a reputable publishing company in the manhwa industry. Naver is a search portal.
- While Naver may meet your definition of a digital publisher, we do not allow digital-only publishers' works into our database.
- We have rethought our guidelines in the past, but we have chosen to not modify them.
- This largely has to do with the fact that manhwa is not the focus of our database and we have no way to determine Naver's credibility.
- Once these works are published by reputable companies, they will be added to the database.


"Reputable publishing company" applies to Naver as Naver Comics is reputable for digital publishing. The issue is physical vs. digital which should probably be made more clear if digital-only publishers are outright denied. Digital-only publication does not make a publisher less reputable. And Naver is a pretty damn credible company, they make up 70% of South Korea's internet traffic. Saying they are only a search engine is like saying Google is only a search engine.

Digital publishing IS still publishing and the clarification that the site explicitly requires physical publication is not made clear. There is nothing in the guidelines stating that.

I'll stop arguing as this is asinine at this point, but the guidelines should probably be more clear about this issue as it currently seems more like a gray area (from the users point of view) rather than a fixed rule.
weeaboo is not a slur you fucking nerds
 
Jul 1, 2013 11:17 PM
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Thanks for your input. On our next revision of the guidelines (which should be sometime soon), I will make sure that this is more clear.

skeletonParty said:
This will most likely be a big issue in the near future though, as the digital age is rapidly approaching.
The manga (and anime) industry keeps evolving - which is good for the industry and for us as viewers, but sure likes maintaining a comprehensive database difficult :)



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Oct 20, 2013 2:25 PM

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Hello,

I'm re-opening this discussion !!!

_ _ _

There are many fans of "Tower of god" on myanimelist, who would add it to their list but can not, and untill receantly only on "naver.com" chapters were available in Korean !!!

Now, from "12th and/or 13th October in 2013" it's all diffrent:

  • NOT RELEVANT FOR YOU AS A MANAGER OF DATABESE, BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR TEXT ABOVE:
    along with Korean version, "naver.com" released also English version:
    http://comic.naver.com/en/list.html?titleId=183559
  • IMPORTANT FOR YOU AS A MANAGER OF DATABESE, BASED ON MY UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR TEXT ABOVE:
    on the day SIU made a trip to "Frankfurt", located in Germany he *released actual books with signatures
    (on the second page of the book, he made you a unique drawing along with his signature, making your book worth even more !!!):

    *proof that he released actual books with first few chapters:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99hk7pz4eAU&feature=youtu.be


_ _ _

I understand that many of you are working with the whole databease, along with having a reall life (heck I was a moderator from comic "Tower of God" on mangahelpers a short while ago). So I understand, you might not know about all the details about this comic (we are all human for god sake), but I as a hardcode fan from "Tower of God" can help you here. So if you have any questions, I want to help many fans of this amaizing comic "Tower of God", to have their own place in myanimelist databese as well !!!

For starters, if you need any more details about the event in Frankfurt, look here:
http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/2993833-Tower-of-God-Frankfurt-Book-Fair-2013
Modified by Monsterguy, Oct 20, 2013 2:33 PM


 
Nov 16, 2013 6:17 PM

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Monsterguy said:

*proof that he released actual books with first few chapters:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99hk7pz4eAU&feature=youtu.be



This. ToG is one of my top-rated series, and it's been a bit disappointing not being able to note it down on MAL.
 
Nov 26, 2013 12:00 AM
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After reading thread after thread about why Tower of God isn't allowed on MAL... I have to say, it sounds like the admin/mods have done little to no research, and are being discriminatory and shamefully old-fashioned.

I feel like just because the admin/mods are based in other geographical locations (not Korea) and know little to nothing about Naver, they are ignorantly labeling it as disreputable.This has been touched upon, but no one even bothered replying to it... To say that Naver isn't a "reputable publishing company" is to say that something published by a company like Google isn't reputable. Google isn't just a search engine, right? It's a CORPORATION. The same goes with Naver. In fact, in South Korea, Naver has a dominating market share over Google. It's a BILLION dollar corporation with MORE services than a search engine.

The format of having amateur author/artists compete to earn the right of being PAID and published PROFESSIONALLY has been done for a long time in the country that is being cited in comparison to Korea by admins; that is, Japan. Masashi Kishimoto originally got the privilege to publish his one-shot of what would later become the series NARUTO by winning the Hop Step Award in Akamaru Jump (Weekly Shonen Jump).

I don't think we need EVERY webcomic to MAL; just the ones that meet the top tier of professional webtoon status, are paid as professionals and published by a company that IS reputable, such as Naver. (There are no more than 20 professional webtoons published by Naver and some are already on this site, so we're not talking 1,000s of webtoons by Naver...) It's just lazy for the mods to say they have no way of looking into that. We all have the Internet, obviously, and are able to look into these things.

This is the digital age and novels, comics, manga, manhwa and everything between have sometimes transcended physical printing. That doesn't make them any less of a novel, comic, manga, manhwa, etc. I say get with the times, MAL.
 
Nov 26, 2013 9:21 PM
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titaniachkt said:
Wow, this forum topic is still active

fallenmagdalene said:
I have to say, it sounds like the admin/mods have done little to no research, and are being discriminatory and shamefully old-fashioned.
I suggest you do some more research before posting a 5 paragraph rant about it


On this topic still being active: I am a newer user and I had never even used these forums before, but felt passionate enough to add my thoughts on this particular matter. It shouldn't be surprising that newer users are going to come here, see that they can't add what they know to be a professional manhwa to their lists, do some research about why that is, and then post their thoughts and opinions. We're all allowed to add our thoughts, are we not?

I'm not sure why you quoted the part about my theory (not blatant accusation) about why I think the admin/mods haven't allowed ToG on MAL and then replied that I should "do some more research" when I prefaced the sentence with "after reading thread after thread". I literally read SIX threads about this issue. And then I only posted in the MOST recent one, summarizing my well-informed thoughts. My only assumption would be that you are best friends with some admin/mods and feel I'm attacking them? I mean, I'm not personally insulting anyone. We're talking about a site issue here, not individual admin/mods. I don't know any of the admin/mods, I'm sure they're great people, and I'm grateful to them for what they do with this site.

Also, I NEVER talked about the idea of making exceptions for any manhwa because it is "popular" or "widely-recognized". A webcomic (not webtoon) on DeviantArt or Pixiv, especially done by a professional, could become very popular, but that doesn't mean I feel it deserves to be added to the database. Which is essentially what the mods were saying. You stated the potential problem with that yourself ("the minority is left out").

The reason to make exceptions for WEBTOONS ONLY that are on the top tier status on REPUTABLE sites such as Naver is that they ARE professional digital manhwa works. The argument here is that
1) Naver is like the Korean counterpart to Google; they are a corporation (and thus they ARE a publisher) and NOT just a search engine as the admins stated without obviously doing enough research or just not caring (which is why I said they are being discriminatory then), and
2) digital manga is still manga so long as it is professionally published (the authors are being paid by a reputable publisher), and that is why I said they are being old-fashioned. This is the digital age. You can only hold out for so long, I feel, until you pretty much have to embrace it.
 
Jan 11, 2014 4:34 AM

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How is this not popular here and with a missing database ? It's one of the best manga (manhwa) I've ever read.

Please contribute as much as you can i got it to add to my list today

http://myanimelist.net/manga/65623/Tower_of_God
 
Jan 11, 2014 8:31 AM

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Papertale said:
How is this not popular here and with a missing database ? It's one of the best manga (manhwa) I've ever read.

Please contribute as much as you can i got it to add to my list today

http://myanimelist.net/manga/65623/Tower_of_God
Because it's not allowed if you haven't read the thread.

Looks like it's already been deleted.
 
Jan 11, 2014 8:53 AM

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Yeah it says manga not found. Well too bad it can't be here
 
Jan 30, 2014 4:32 PM

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in my opinion tog is long way better than noblesse. i tried read noble 16 so far i got bored. i tried reading tog 1 and 2 chapter now i'm at 173 chapter. is a shame they doesn't add it.
 
Jan 30, 2014 4:38 PM

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Jctatis said:
in my opinion tog is long way better than noblesse. i tried read noble 16 so far i got bored. i tried reading tog 1 and 2 chapter now i'm at 173 chapter. is a shame they doesn't add it.
Well then I guess it's too bad they are not added based on how good one user thinks they are.
 
May 13, 2014 4:24 AM
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I sincerely apologize if I am necro-ing this thread, but I'm just sitting here wondering how ToG doesn't have a database entry, when other webtoons like Orange Marmalade, Girls Of the Wilds or Dr. Frost do?

These are probably few of my most favorite comics/manga, but I know for a fact that Tower of God is on par, if not bigger in terms of popularity with these webtoons.

I'm not sure all three titles I mentioned do indeed have physical copies, but according to this Facebook link and this blog post apparently "Dr. Frost is a webtoon (a manhwa found exclusively online) that premiered on Naver on February 2, 2011..."

Of course Facebook or blogs are no means a greatly reliable source (I couldn't find any info stating otherwise ;_; ), however, not meaning to offend any moderators or community members, I'm only slightly concerned regarding the treatment of certain titles and potential MAL DB entries.

Thank you.
Modified by pahw, May 13, 2014 4:30 AM
 
May 13, 2014 7:49 AM

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streetbum said:
I sincerely apologize if I am necro-ing this thread, but I'm just sitting here wondering how ToG doesn't have a database entry, when other webtoons like Orange Marmalade, Girls Of the Wilds or Dr. Frost do?
I don't know why you asked that question when you already implied that you know here(or you of course could have read the actual first page of the thread you posted in):

I'm not sure all three titles I mentioned do indeed have physical copies, but according to this Facebook link and this blog post apparently "Dr. Frost is a webtoon (a manhwa found exclusively online) that premiered on Naver on February 2, 2011..."

Of course Facebook or blogs are no means a greatly reliable source (I couldn't find any info stating otherwise ;_; ), however, not meaning to offend any moderators or community members, I'm only slightly concerned regarding the treatment of certain titles and potential MAL DB entries.

Thank you.
And I can't see the date on the facebook picture. But that blog post is two years old, many things could change in between then and now(it only takes 1 minute to announce it's getting physical copies).

And in this case it's not best to use something you don't know the exact status of for evidence. If it's on this database then it's physically published and if it for some reason isn't, they'll just take it out, not put ToG in.

And I don't know what you mean by treatment. MAL isn't bashing any manhwa nor saying that they aren't indeed manhwa. Just that they don't fit the guidelines to be alllowed into their site, every site needs a scope and guidelines. Allowing in any unpublished wentoons means allowing in tons of other found only online manga Korean or otherwise.

These are probably few of my most favorite comics/manga, but I know for a fact that Tower of God is on par, if not bigger in terms of popularity with these webtoons.
Popularity has nothing to do with if something is added. And before you get to it(which some fans do) quality doesn't matter either. Just if it's professionally and physically published.
 
Dec 2, 2014 8:25 PM

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Time to revive the thread once again, because the topic still seems to be hot...
IntroverTurtle said:

And I don't know what you mean by treatment. MAL isn't bashing any manhwa nor saying that they aren't indeed manhwa. Just that they don't fit the guidelines to be alllowed into their site, every site needs a scope and guidelines. Allowing in any unpublished wentoons means allowing in tons of other found only online manga Korean or otherwise.


I think the problem IS how MAL treats korean webcomics. As said before, there are tons of different ones, some on doujin lvl and some on paid professional lvl. MALs guidelines just have no difference there which is a problem, considering that in korea (probably the number 1 country for digital culture) a digital release of a paid professional is as good as a paper release of a paid professional.
You could argue that MAL appears to be very conservative in this matter which seems stupid for something that should be 'modern' like a digital database.
Modified by zwolf12, Dec 2, 2014 9:15 PM
 
Dec 15, 2014 2:51 PM

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i mean i can slightly understand not wanting to add a webcomic because if you add one you may have to start adding a lot more and then thered be countless different storys on here etc.

But considering the fact that its a fairly popular webcomic along with the facts that it has 2 parts and is over 200+ chapters id say it should be added especially since im sure theres quite a few who wish to discuss it. Should make exceptions for certain webcomics, i'd understand if we were talkikng about some random non heard of thing with less than 50 chaps but this has had time to get around and be popular.

ontop of that it seems its been added in the past and taken down don't see the big deal personally plz don't ban me for speaking out of term or something just couldn't find a better place to post this.
 
Dec 15, 2014 3:49 PM

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bromains said:
im sure theres quite a few who wish to discuss it.

But you concluded it's impossible to discuss otherwise?
People discuss it just fine, for example in this club: http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=24357
I am sure if you search, you'll find more clubs or topics dedicated to webtoons or Tower of God
Modified by Serhiyko, Dec 15, 2014 3:53 PM
 
Dec 20, 2014 7:49 AM
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I'm pretty new on this site, and it is my first time posting on a thread so I hope I'm doing it right. I would just like to say that the reason I joined this site was to keep track of the manga, anime, webtoons, manhwa, and the like that are ongoing that I am reading. I really just wanted to make sure that even if I close the page I was reading it on that I would have no trouble knowing what chapter I was on even if it updated. Also I see a lot of people here arguing that the mods make their rules however they want to (or at least that's what I'm getting from it) but shouldn't how popular something is have at least some factor in whether or not it is put on the site? Shouldn't the fact that so many of the user on the site want it to be listed be taken into account? I believe the site is made for the people who are going to be using it, isn't it? Now I understand that the moderators having authority to basically tell us this is their rules get over it, but I don't understand why there are so many users criticizing other users for trying to get something they enjoy on the site.
 
Dec 20, 2014 8:14 AM

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Yes, the rules should be revised
 
Jan 23, 2015 11:14 PM

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i wanted to keep track of Tower of God but i couldn't find it in the database, so i searched and found this post, it's just a matter of time before it publish, so let's just wait
 
Feb 3, 2015 12:33 PM

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Hopefully we'll get it here one day...Started to read and seems pretty cool ! Good luck with publishing ~

 
Feb 22, 2015 7:31 PM

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I understand the rules for submission, I just don't quite understand why they're so focused on reputable publishers? If they don't want doujin or amateur works there are other ways to word the rules. For instance, if a work does not belong to a reputable publisher, it must be regularly updated for a period of at least six months for it to qualify for submission on MAL.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care that it's not here, I was just looking for a reason why and stumbled across this thread. Nor am I well versed in how difficult maintaining a DB is. It just seemed silly to me.
 
Feb 22, 2015 7:39 PM

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outau said:
I understand the rules for submission, I just don't quite understand why they're so focused on reputable publishers? If they don't want doujin or amateur works there are other ways to word the rules. For instance, if a work does not belong to a reputable publisher, it must be regularly updated for a period of at least six months for it to qualify for submission on MAL.

Don't get me wrong, I don't really care that it's not here, I was just looking for a reason why and stumbled across this thread. Nor am I well versed in how difficult maintaining a DB is. It just seemed silly to me.
That's still a doujin work. If I get my Korean friend to draw with crayon on a piece of paper and upload it online once a month for 6 months then he'd be allowed according to your rules. The time put into the work should not determine whether it gets in or not.
 
Feb 26, 2015 5:13 AM
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Hey there!

Im not going to debate what should or should not be considered a manga or what should be allowed on myanimelist.

Just wanted to say that I really am enjoying reading tower of god and it would be nice to have myanimelist track it as right now I am looking into other means of tracking it... maybe other websites... might be worth adding it here based on that merit.
 
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