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Apr 19, 2013 1:23 PM

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9988 said:
symbv said:
9988 said:
Dont begin with that game of yours over again symbv, who is saying anything about the "birth of moe", I am specifically referring about the BOOM, and the general consensus -among fans at the least- is that the booom started in 2006, to be more specific thanks to Kyoani's Hauruhi.
I didn't start any game. I think you started it by writing as if it is a universally accepted fact that the "moe boom" (whatever that means) started in 2006 when there is never any consensus about this. Did Haruhi start a boom? Or Clannad? Or before KyoAni? If anything, in fact the general consensus mostly traced the rise of moe to Evangelion and the start of late night anime in the late 90s.


Sure I know your games. If you don't want to acknowledge it its fine by me.

I will say it again, the boom happened in 2006, and yea, the one responsible for it was Kyoani and Haruhi , this is the superhit that defined anime in the 2000s.



EDIT: Just now doing a simply googleseartch it brought up a nice chart, hard cold numbers don't lie :

[img]http://img170.imagevenue.com/loc243/th_395468118_101231_moe_year_chart2_122_243lo.jpg[mg]





1992


1994


1997


1998


1999



Modified by rederoin, Apr 19, 2013 1:28 PM
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Apr 19, 2013 1:28 PM

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And quote a guy about the "moe boom" from the same source:
http://aquabluesweater.wordpress.com/2010/12/31/genre-over-time-moe/#comment-129


......

While the word (moe) had long since been popular in Japan possibly as early as 1993 (the first Saimoe was in 2002) it didn’t hit the english population until recently.

I personally believe moe has always been there it’s just that now that people have a name for it they are identifying more things as moe. Also that the tagging system has not caught up yet to the breadth of the slang. For instance: I would hardly call Azumanga the only moe show of 2002; Chobits aired during the same year. If Chobits isn’t moe I don’t know what is.

So I guess bottom line, any study of the trends of moe is premature because the tagging system has not caught up. Unless a different standard is used I don’t think an accurate representation of the amount of moe series in the past decade can be attained.


Just Moe haters being delusional again about the non existant "moe boom".
Modified by kaimax, Apr 19, 2013 1:32 PM

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Apr 19, 2013 1:30 PM

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Takuan_Soho said:
In 2006 "moe" was 3% of the releases, in 2009 it was 6% of the releases. You have one season of one year over 10%, but the average is closer to 6%. I have never heard of such a small minority being considered an "invasion" before. Wake me up if it goes over 20%
That's why I question the use of "moe boom" if this "boom" is based on the result of this survey because if the survey is true there is no boom/invasion at all, but of course we know how ill-defined and deeply flawed its whole premise is. At the end the term "moe show" is not really meaningful, as rederoin said above. As I previously argued, there are moe elements and these elements are pretty common in anime even before 2006. Calling 2006 as the year when a so-called "moe boom" started is pretty arbitrary, and is based on some distorted and deeply flawed view of anime history.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 19, 2013 2:16 PM

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Ah how I wish the moe boom and infestation was not real as you say, how I wish.

@ rederoin @ 1980 anime: See, I want to see more like that again, so much diversity.

Fact is that there are MANY "moe haters", how can you say we all are wrong and we are being chuu2byou? Like I said, the blind love of you prevents you from seeing anything out of the ordinary, for you theres no moe infestation, no wonder you guys can never have enough of it.

Haruhi and Kyoani effects are clearly seen the next year, once its super popularity and sales data was a fact, no wonder the peak in 2007.

And also I can argue by now moe has become so prominent and with perfectly defined characteristics that it has become a genre in itself.
Modified by 9988, Apr 19, 2013 2:33 PM
 
Apr 19, 2013 2:22 PM

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lol 5/5? Is this a troll? 3/5 I would understand since thats what I would have gave this cause the second episode was better than the first at least. Animation is still a bit jerky and could have used more frames. -__-
"What has two arms, two legs, and is alive? Not your favorite character lol! xD"
 
Apr 19, 2013 2:32 PM
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9988 said:
Ah how I wish the moe boom and infestation was not real as you say, how I wish.

Then rejoice your wish has been granted

9988 said:
@ rederoin @ 1980 anime: See, I want to see more like that again, so much diversity.

Uhm, I take it you didn't actually read what rederoin said. You don't want diversity, you really want a return to 1980 animation levels.

9988 said:
Fact is that there are MANY "moe haters", how can you say we all are wrong and we are being chuu2byou?

You are wrong when your "facts" don't support your arguments. Before the 1950's every scientist but one insisted that continents did not move, they were all wrong because their facts were wrong.
At least the scientists back then had some facts to support your argument, your facts contradict your argument.

9988 said:
Like I said, the blind love of you prevents you from seeing anything out of the ordinary, for you theres no moe infestation, no wonder you guys can never have enough of it.

Blind hate is just as blinding you know. It can also, as you amply show, make one stupid.

9988 said:
And also I can argue by now moe has become so prominent and with perfectly defined characteristics that it has become a genre in itself.

Any definition that combines Bamboo Blade, Haruhi, and K-On together is hardly "perfectly" defined.
 
Apr 19, 2013 2:46 PM

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@Takuan_Soho

Who is taking about a definition? I said characteristics, very obvious when we gather all the anime and have the common denominator.

Blind hate: Yes. So I am a blind hater? I guess so if you ignore the "fact" (unless you wanna claim otherwise") that I said I have enjoyed some moe and pandering, yet, I know when I am nauseated with "sweetness" already, and enough is enough.

Right now, so you think I am skipping Railgun and Suisei no gargantia for its moe elements? Because I am a blind hater? I am enjoying them, when shallow moe is not the main point of a series then its no issue at least ni my case.

For all I care, as long as moe is not as invasive as is it is then I have no issue with it. But thats not the case right, I am delusional, moe is in such tiny levels we need even more, I get it.

Anyway, likewise I can say that your "supposed facts" don't match reality either.

So I don't want diversity...ok, is that a fact? Best era for me is the 80s indeed, but nah, going back to 2005 and taking it from there again its enough, in fact, plenty old anime its being revived, I am more than happy with that.

Let me have more Monsters, more Dennou Coils, Gankutsuous, Basilisks MUshishis, Gurren Laggans, Saikanos, add some of your beloved moe for good measure and we are good.
Modified by 9988, Apr 19, 2013 3:01 PM
 
Apr 19, 2013 3:00 PM
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9988 said:
Who is taking about a definition? I said characteristics, very obvious when we gather all the anime and have the common denominator.

You said "with perfectly defined characteristics", so please perfectly define them. What unites those three shows that makes them all Moe, as oppose to say Evangelion.

9988 said:
Blind hate: Yes. So I am a blind hater? I guess so if you ignore the "fact" (unless you wanna claim otherwise") that I said I have enjoyed some moe and pandering, yet, I know when I am nauseated with "sweetness" already, and enough is enough.

Yes yes, and some of your best friends are also "black". I would say misreading everyone who have trotted forward as "evidence" shows a certain amount of blindness.

9988 said:
Right now, so you think I am skipping Railgun and Suisei no gargantia for its moe elements?

Suisei is moe? Really?

9988 said:
Because I am a blind hater? I am enjoying them, when shallow moe is not the main point of a series then its no issue at least ni my case.

See above.

9988 said:
For all I care, as long as moe is not as invasive is it is then I have no issue whet it. But thats not the case tight, I am delusional, moe is in such tiny level we need even more, I get it.

No you don't. You are presenting a false dichotomy. If people disagree with you its because they want moe all the time. As if there isn't anyone who could possibly disagree with you because, well, your facts don't support your conclusion. Incidentally that is what people with blindness do, they can't see any grey, just black and white.

Anyway, likewise I can say that your "supposed facts" don't match reality either.
 
Apr 19, 2013 3:16 PM

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There was no "boom", the only fact that happened is the total number of animes per season that increased, creating the illusion of the "boom".

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Apr 19, 2013 7:00 PM

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This argument about moe is so fucking stupid.
 
Apr 19, 2013 9:08 PM

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9988 said:
Fact is that there are MANY "moe haters", how can you say we all are wrong and we are being chuu2byou?
Well, basically the view of moe impact or history is pretty much very wrong and it does not matter how many you are. We all know being large in number does not necessarily mean being right. And not to say that your view about "moe" is particularly distorted and biased because, as Takuan_Soho said, it is hardly based on facts and more relied on blindness.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 19, 2013 9:36 PM
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symbv said:
Well, basically the view of moe impact or history is pretty much very wrong and it does not matter how many you are. We all know being large in number does not necessarily mean being right. And not to say that your view about "moe" is particularly distorted and biased because, as Takuan_Soho said, it is hardly based on facts and more relied on blindness.


But on the bright side 9988's argument answered the mystery of why the "anti moe" faction focuses on KyoAnime.

To prove their point that "moe is ruining animation" they have to prove that moe is a relatively recent phenomena, as such they cannot afford to let its beginning go back to evangelion because if they did, then far from ruining animation, one could make the argument that moe made animation a global phenomena.

Though KyoAnime has existed since the 80's they only really became successful with that particular string of hits starting with Haruhi in 2006 and running through K-On in 2010. They also advanced a distinctive art style that was unique to KyoAnime. Their success during this period allows the "anti moe" faction to point to KyoAnime's success as the "start" of Moe. This allows them to disassociate the success of Japanese animation in the American market from Moe, instead presenting it as some sort of "recent' aberration. Of course that isn't true, but with the improvement in animation technique (as opposed to say 80's and 90's moe), it makes it easy for the AMG to pretend that this was something new.
 
Apr 19, 2013 9:55 PM

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Takuan_Soho said:
But on the bright side 9988's argument answered the mystery of why the "anti moe" faction focuses on KyoAnime.
However, to me, and perhaps quite a number of people here, it does not really need his argument to answer why the "anti moe faction" takes on KyoAni. In fact those surveys he quoted (using data from ANN no less) are just another manifestation of the half-baked crank theories that those people like to conjure after they jump to conclusion that KyoAni is the main culprit of the "moe boom" (whatever that means). So basically that kind of survey is not their starting point, but what they came up with in order to show that they are "right" after all (and your post has provided further insight about why they want to do so). This is why I said earlier that even though there are people who dislike moe in Japan, only in the west do I see people writing long treatises and spinning theories to "show" how moe destroys anime and how bad moe is for the industry and its fandom.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:27 AM
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9988 said:
Trisection said:
9988 said:
ReasonDesu said:
I've just started watching Kemonozume and it reminds me so much of this show but is much higher rated. I hope maybe AnH will turn out the same way.


Without doubt, the best comparison is with Kemonozume. Krmonozume is lucky to be from a different time, different trends back then, so there was still the "ugly" but not to the ridiculous levels seen at this moment with Aku no Hana.


Kemonozume came out in 2006 and the style can only be attributed to Yuasa, it has nothing to do with trends. Kick Heart is the closest thing in terms of visuals and that's coming out in a few months. The extreme stylization in his works is very different from the more realistic looking rotoscope of Aku no Hana.


You did not understand what I meant. I meant that todays dominant trends (moe-desporportionate fanservice) were just starting back then ( the huge boom that is), the moe boom happened around 2006, so Kemonozume did not had it as hard as Ano Hana has it today, the dominant trends and hardcore fans that now expect certain "standards" are trashing Aku no Hana now, so I simply said the back in 2006 people were more open to such drastic style, like the one in Kemonozume and there was no drama over it unlike now.


I admit I misinterpreted what you meant, but the current reaction also stems from the larger viewing population and the fact that AnH is an adaptation. There was nothing to "ruin" in Kemonozume's case. In fact, most anime fans have never heard of it.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:29 AM

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I can say you got a nice disciple symbv, with Takuan_Soho.

@ Takuan_Soho : Now, learn to read and comprehend , you try to pass yourself as very wise, I call you a liar and pretentious.

First off, I never said when it moe came into existence, just like I told symbv, all there exist are theories, however it is too evident when it took off and became a phenomenon of huge proportions. Show me when pre-2006 we were all talking about moe, it already existed but the majority of fans in Japan or outside hardly knew the slang.

So its beginning go back to EVA, mere theory, there is no definite answer to when it began, so you cannot affirm it started with EVA. Even if this theory is taken, there a difference between "that moe" an current moe.

I asked this question before, you guys want to defend with the distorted logic of, hey moe exited before Haruhi, ok, but why noone was complaining about it pre.haruhi, pre--2006, what changed..something happened evidently.

It has evolved over time, in that case I would have to agree with you, I can apply this to anime even from the 60 or 70s, not just 80s and 90s.

So it was a mystery why kyoani is blamed and hated, facepalm, then if you don't care or don't even know our point of view how you can say we are wrong and don't know what the hell we are talking about, that we are delusional? Don't talk about you don't really know then.

So again, WHO, tell me WHO, is saying moe "started" with Kyoani and Haruhi? I specifically said "boom", clearly pointed out this since the beginning, so you deny this and then say whatever the hell you want: "start" to discredit me or those from blaming "god" Kyoani.

symbv said:
We all know being large in number does not necessarily mean being right. And not to say that your view about "moe" is particularly distorted and biased because, as Takuan_Soho said, it is hardly based on facts and more relied on blindness.


We also know not because moe has a huge fandom and sells a lot, its a world of virtues either. Goes both ways.

You can label me blind, your adamant defense show you are as blind as me then. Goes both ways as well.

Takuan_Soho said:
as such they cannot afford to let its beginning go back to evangelion because if they did, then far from ruining animation, one could make the argument that moe made animation a global phenomena.


LOL, forgive me but I really laughed in this part. Moe making "animation" a global phenomenon, yea sure, and THEY SAY, i am BLIND!

SO not just anime, but ANIMATION---GLOBAL! Yea ok. Eva did not even was a global phenomenon by itself, let alone "its moe" making animation, what did you say, global?
Modified by 9988, Apr 20, 2013 5:17 AM
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:33 AM

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9988 said:
You can label me blind, your adamant defense show you are as blind as me then. Goes both ways as well.
At least I do not rely on crank theory and distorted view of anime industry and history. ;-)
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:37 AM
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lol most of the moe anime has to realy on dvd sales to even be close to successful they get very little sponsors thats bad thats is way the art is so minimal
"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

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There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:40 AM
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Bad news guys. Those who are still stating that ANN claims Aku no hana being the best anime this season, take a look at the ratting.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=14570

It might change overtime, but currently it doesen't look like the series is getting any praise, some people think it deserves.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:43 AM

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DateYutaka said:
lol most of the moe anime has to realy on dvd sales to even be close to successful they get very little sponsors thats bad thats is way the art is so minimal
Actually an anime, moe anime or not ("moe anime" is an ill-defined term anyway), can boost merchandise sales and original manga/LN sales, so it is not just dvd sales that decides its success.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:43 AM

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symbv said:
9988 said:
You can label me blind, your adamant defense show you are as blind as me then. Goes both ways as well.
At least I do not rely on crank theory and distorted view of anime industry and history. ;-)


What theories? I base my statements is the cold hard realty; blu-ray-dvd sales, common denominator in current anime, the change in art style, characteristic of of anime productions, the fans opinions, etc.

If someone seem to base their arguments in theories and some mystic hidden moe conceptions its not me.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:45 AM

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9988 said:
What theories? I base my statements isn the cold hard realty; blu-ray-dvd sales, common denominator in current anime, the change in art style, etc.
Yeah, some "analyses" you dug up using questionable definition of "moe show" to show "moe invasion" which you stated as "cold hard numbers".

Iif only you really base only on those things you claim ...
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:53 AM

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symbv said:
9988 said:
What theories? I base my statements isn the cold hard realty; blu-ray-dvd sales, common denominator in current anime, the change in art style, etc.
Yeah, some "analyses" you dug up using questionable definition of "moe show" to show "moe invasion" which you stated as "cold hard numbers".


I brought up the graphs only that show when moe (or how to we call it then?) took off and grew significantly, it had a huge peak in 2007 after the, "arguably" lets say, tremendous success of Haruhi which as with any huge success, it was promptly taken as an example for other anime that wanted the glory as well.

So, when did I quote the guys opinion, his "facts", based my opinion on his? At much I simply mentioned the title and agreed with the "invasion" thing, however, you know very well, I have been saying so for as long as we have argued over it. So no Never. The percentages of those graphs are very generous actually, there were much much anime with moe in those years, the graphs give a very good idea even if they are not 100% accurate, its nothign hard to recognize moe, moe now its way to ivusla and come in to hard on the community, its extremely hard to ignore, only exception its when we hear people say, hey, Mutta is moe, hey Speedwagon is very moe, and many wonder why, so yes, somehting its complex thing but definitely westerners are not as clueless as you want to make it look and moe currently is easily identifiable, from something more intangible in the past its extremely visual and vocal today.


What the definition of moe again, please do let us know to prevent misunderstanding ever again, make it loud and clear what the definition is, can you? Concretely evidently.

Moe is __________________.
Modified by 9988, Apr 20, 2013 4:09 AM
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:57 AM
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symbv said:
DateYutaka said:
lol most of the moe anime has to realy on dvd sales to even be close to successful they get very little sponsors thats bad thats is way the art is so minimal
Actually an anime, moe anime or not ("moe anime" is an ill-defined term anyway), can boost merchandise sales and original manga/LN sales, so it is not just dvd sales that decides its success.


as a follow Tv ratings of its a TV anime i need it to be have a soild rating on TV for a TV anime to be a success

before for you say most Moe stuff os late night Eva was and that ended with over 11,00 % ratings when most moe stuff gets not even 3.00
"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong
 
Apr 20, 2013 4:05 AM

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DateYutaka said:
as a follow Tv ratings of its a TV anime i need it to be have a soild rating on TV for a TV anime to be a success
Yeah, if you talk about anime aired in evenings and mornings, yes, but otherwise, there are other ways beside dvd sales for an anime to be called a success.

DateYutaka said:
before for you say most Moe stuff os late night Eva was and that ended with over 11,00 % ratings when most moe stuff gets not even 3.00
And of course everyone knows the days of Evangelion were past history. Even if there is a show like evangelion it is doubtful it will get the same rating now.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 4:08 AM

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I like how so much of this thread are people arguing about the use of a word that obviously has different operable definitions. I feel like some of you would want to be etymologists by your posts.

So far I am loving the anime. I also enjoyed parts of the reviews posted in the thread.

Not everyone will like this show. From a personal standpoint, I didn't. But it is one that should be given at least an episode before you form your opinion. Both uncomfortable and fascinating, Flowers of Evil is doing something different, and for that it deserves praise.
Some people have said a lot of bad things about this part in the review. I thought this was the best part and it shows that the person is a good reviewer. There are movies and shows that I know have a lot of effort put into them and the ideas are very entertaining and can be read into quite a bit, but that still doesn't mean I like them. There are a lot of things that can make me not enjoy a show sometimes they promote ideas I don't like, sometimes they have characters that I can't relate to but that doesn't mean that I can't look at the show and compare it to other shows and see if it actually is something that is made well. Aku no hana is obviously going to be a show that strikes critics this way. The show is made to make people feel uncomfortable. It is made to make people question some basic assumptions. It does what many people try to avoid when looking for entertainment. The question is, does it do it well? And the parts of the reviews sum it up pretty well, Aku no Hana does it brilliantly. It creates a rich, yet comfortless, atmosphere that I am sure some people who have anxiety disorders or schizophrenia will be able to relate to.
 
Apr 20, 2013 4:09 AM

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9988 said:

I brought up the graphs only that show when moe (or how to we call it then?) took off and grew significantly, it had a huge peak in 2007 after the, "arguably" lets say, tremendous success of Haruhi which as with any huge success, it was promptly taken as an example for other anime that wanted the glory as well.
So I guess you buy into that dubious theory that the graphs purported to "prove" then?

9988 said:
So, when did I quote the guys opinion, his "facts", based my opinion on his? At much I simply mentioned the title and agreed with the "invasion" thing, however, you know very well, I have been saying so for as long as we have argued over it. So no Never. The percentages of those graphs are very generous actually, there were much much anime with moe in those years.
Well, you said "cold hard numbers" from the guys of the website proved "moe boom" started from 2006, right? If you do not agree with the findings why did you bring it up as "cold hard numbers"?

9988 said:

What the definition of moe again, please do let us know to prevent misunderstanding ever again, make it loud and clear what the definition is, can you? Concretely evidently.
Moe is __________________.
You kept asking and I kept explaining and you kept asking. You never intend to learn. Perhaps you can just go back and read rederoin's post which I doubt you ever read closely: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=583391&show=340#msg21544911
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 4:16 AM

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RyanSaotome said:
I've always found it odd how editors on a major anime site apparently hate nearly all anime that comes out. They are like a bunch of people who got into anime through Adult Swim.

It doesn't really help when you have influential people in the American anime industry pushing the "Moe is killing anime" fad too.

Ryan, I don't even honest-to-god know what to tell you anymore or what anyone else could tell you. You make these same EXACT claims and judgments towards the same guys about the same things over and over again. People like Zac come to you in the ANN forums after time again, making it clear where they are coming from, correcting on the matter of whatever biases and complaints with whatever anime that comes out and who their audience is and what-not. And yet, here we are in 2013 and you are STILL having the same exact opinions on each individual critic on ANN by lumping them altogether in a negative light as you did in 2011.

If that is not the equivalent of a kid covering his ears, yelling at his/her parents to shut up while they're attempting to correct and discipline their kid, then I don't know what the hell to call how you act other than..... well, just sad.
 
Apr 20, 2013 4:22 AM
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symbv said:
DateYutaka said:
as a follow Tv ratings of its a TV anime i need it to be have a soild rating on TV for a TV anime to be a success
Yeah, if you talk about anime aired in evenings and mornings, yes, but otherwise, there are other ways beside dvd sales for an anime to be called a success.

DateYutaka said:
before for you say most Moe stuff os late night Eva was and that ended with over 11,00 % ratings when most moe stuff gets not even 3.00
And of course everyone knows the days of Evangelion were past history. Even if there is a show like evangelion it is doubtful it will get the same rating now.


do you know the reaons for this [ I do ] but Just to Check if you do it an easy thnk to know and its affected TV Rtaings as a whole in Japan[ ans worls wide] for that matter
"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong
 
Apr 20, 2013 4:33 AM

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@ symbv

I already posted my arguments about the graphs already, I see no more point in explaining why and how I used them. For me it worked to show in what year there was a peak of moe like never before. I dont see how this can be denied, yet again, you have done it other times we have argued.... so we will reach no consensus.

symbv said:

What the definition of moe again, please do let us know to prevent misunderstanding ever again, make it loud and clear what the definition is, can you? Concretely evidently.
Moe is __________________. You kept asking and I kept explaining and you kept asking. You never intend to learn. Perhaps you can just go back and read rederoin's post which I doubt you ever read closely: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=583391&show=340#msg21544911



I did. After so many arguments here and there or expert moe fans telling right and left and what it is and how I or we don't understand it, I should know a thing or 2 about arguments of the other "faction"

Sometimes I am in the mood to argue back sometimes don't, or sometimes I cannot take it that seriously.

So...

Do you expect me to take that as definition? That is not a definition to begin with. Goes to show moe has no concrete definition and by itself nullify the usual statement of "moe is beyond you" "you don't understand" "its beyond westerners" because its a complex and personal and subjective thing yes, that noone really knows for certain how or where it originated and what it was making referent to originally, time as also affected whats considered moe... but like I said, moe is more visible and verbal than ever before, it does not take a genius to see what is or at the least constitutes potential moe.

And No, I don't want and explanation I want a concrete definition, not vagueness of what it can be or what it can not be.

So cute girls doing cute things is not moe, but cute girls doing cute things seem to evoke the most "subjective ____- _____ ____ _____ feelings" :) and as such the series that has the cutest ones and have that "extra" sell the best (Ah yea, arguemt of mine you don't agree I know) ...like love exactly, that you like it superficially but when you get to know her/him you see something else...ah, See Wonderful.

See, its not hard to understand it, just that sometimes the entire process is skipped to the end result directly.

Now, I can actually argue that cute girls doing cute and many random things are indeed moe.

Why? Those moe feeling are artificially created left and right, everything is tailored to produce them, its not a natural thing like watching les miserables and having feelings of empathy or protection for Cosette.

So far the reality tells us to the best way to produce moe is with cute girls, why not boys, why not grandmas, why not ojichans? They can produce them, yes, but not at the desired high levels. So far those feelings are evoked more efficiently with girls doing lots of random and primarily cute things, gestures, they way they talk, etc.

So how can those cute girls doing cute things basically tailored to enhance and produce moe feeling technically cannot be considered moe? If they are there for that objective.... hence the big perception for the "moe ignorant" (like me) of moe being in a nutshell cute girls doing cute thinga, which the moe crowd is so fast to argue....are we really that wrong...I wonder.

What we don't we see fans licking monitors with or fans celebrating Mutta, akagi, Kaiji's or Speedwagon birthday and photos? .... a mystery? ...

Modified by 9988, Apr 20, 2013 5:13 AM
 
Apr 20, 2013 5:08 AM

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>Aku no Hana 5
>SnK, Hataraku Maou-sama 2,4,3.5

SEEMS LEGIT!!! Crazy ANN staffs @@
Paul said:
ANN should stick with its Animenewsnetwork.


True. Only reason I visit ANN everyday is because of the news and rumors.
 
Apr 20, 2013 5:38 AM

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9988 said:
Do you expect me to take that as definition? That is not a definition to begin with. Goes to show moe has no concrete definition and by itself nullify the usual statement of "moe is beyond you" "you don't understand" "its beyond westerners" because its a complex and personal and subjective thing yes, that noone really knows for certain how or where it originated and what it was making referent to originally, time as also affected whats considered moe... but like I said, moe is more visible and verbal than ever before, it does not take a genius to see what is or at the least constitutes potential moe.
I don't think I ever said "moe is beyond you" "its beyond westerners" cause otherwise I will not agree with the many westerners when they talk about their understanding of moe. If anything it defines moe much better than what you can come up with, and much closer to the actual reality too. Also I do not deny the moe is more visible than before, particularly since nowadays the word has entered as a common vocabulary related to manga/anime/game/LN industry which means more people look for it even if they previously did not or not bothered.

9988 said:

So cute girls doing cute things is not moe, but cute girls doing cute things seem to evoke the most "subjective ____- _____ ____ _____ feelings" :) and as such the series that has the cutest ones and have that "extra" sell the best (Ah yea, arguemt of mine you don't agree I know) ...like love exactly, that you like it superficially but when you get to know her/him you see something else...ah, See Wonderful.
See, its not hard to understand it, just that sometimes the entire process is skipped to the end result directly
Well "cute girls doing cute things" is just one possible way to evoke moe feelings. That does not mean that you can just equate the two.

And anyway, "cute girls doing cute things" is an over-generalized description anyway because what looks cute to some may not look cute to another. So if we want to talk about moe, it is better to go down to the various moe elements from physical features to behavior pattern to speech characteristics, and then we can see how moe actually works.

9988 said:
So far the reality tells us to the best way to produce moe is with cute girls, why not boys, why not grandmas, why not ojichans? They can produce them, yes, but not at the desired high levels. So far those feelings are evoked more efficiently with girls doing lots of random and primarily cute things, gestures, they way they talk, etc.
Well, you can do it with boys too, it is just that you do not hear that often from the female fans because they do not speak out as much or at the same place you spend your time. They can also use some other words to describe the same moe feelings. And perhaps the boys are not produced at the same frequency as the girls, but then of course we know how skewed the gender balance is among anime fans.

9988 said:

What we don't we see fans licking monitors with or fans celebrating Mutta, akagi, Kaiji's or Speedwagon birthday and photos? .... a mystery? ...
Yeah, a mystery indeed, and on the other hand, we see fans baking tank cakes and building lovely tank panorama, often without the characters. Why? Because the tanks gave them the moe feelings.
Modified by symbv, Apr 22, 2013 5:55 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 20, 2013 1:22 PM
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Brian Hanson, The Answerman addresses the debate and raises some very good points on the merits of series that try's something radical different: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2013-04-19
Modified by Zarmyn, Apr 20, 2013 3:49 PM
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:25 PM
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Talk about early jumping to conclusions. It should be common sense that efforts on becoming different do not always result in success.

If something, Aku no Hana animation is a masterpiece of ugliness. Only that.
 
Apr 20, 2013 3:46 PM

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xNoire wrote:
If something, Aku no Hana animation is a masterpiece of ugliness. Only that.


Right.
So it IS a masterpiece. It is the greatest of the past decade, as far as I can recall.
Great art can be ugly. A director who creates something like this can be a genius.
 
Apr 20, 2013 5:04 PM
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9988 said:
I can say you got a nice disciple symbv, with Takuan_Soho.

Rather serve knowledge, than rule ignorance.

9988 said:
First off, I never said when it moe came into existence, just like I told symbv, all there exist are theories, however it is too evident when it took off and became a phenomenon of huge proportions. Show me when pre-2006 we were all talking about moe, it already existed but the majority of fans in Japan or outside hardly knew the slang.


According to wikipedia by 2004 moe related merchandise was already 1/3rd of the total animation merchandising market. So that predates Haruhi by two years. Also since 2002 2channel has had its annual moe competition, each year with 280 characters. So this shows that by 2002 there was already a very rich vein of moe to tap into pre 2002.

9988 said:
So its beginning go back to EVA, mere theory, there is no definite answer to when it began, so you cannot affirm it started with EVA. Even if this theory is taken, there a difference between "that moe" an current moe.

Actually while most people point to Evangelion (1995), one can easily trace older animation as "moe", most people pick Evangelion as the "tipping point" for moe, not the start. Older examples would be Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon (1992) or even Urusei Yatsura (1981) (first real "harem" comic, major plot is his trying to score with every chick he meets and he occasionally strips the girls of the bikini tops).

Oh I see, there is a "difference". What exactly. It sounds like the difference is "things after haruhi are the moe I am talking about, things before haruhi is some other kind of moe". I think even you can see how "convenient" that is. If you really wanted to have a conversation about the "start" of moe, I wouldn't look at animation, I would look at the popularity of Comiket. In 1989 there were 100K attendees, by 2004 there were over 500,000. In that Comiket is heavily dependent on "moe" themes, this would suggest that as a movement it has long been established.

9988 said:
I asked this question before, you guys want to defend with the distorted logic of, hey moe exited before Haruhi, ok, but why noone was complaining about it pre.haruhi, pre--2006, what changed..something happened evidently.

Oh, but they did. A lot of people in Japan complained about Sailor Moon, the naked transformation sequences in particular. The reason you don't hear about it before was because 2006 was roughly when animation went mainstream in the US and you started having politically correct people in the US rail against it. In Japan "moe" use goes back to the 90's, but it was for hardcore fans.

I haven't really thought of it before, but I think a "watershed" moment for the mainstreaming of the word might not have anything to do with animation, but rather with the show "Densha Okoto" which debuted in 2005. Symbv might be able to explain whether I am right or not on this, but that show was a HUGE hit in Japan, and did more to mainstream "otaku" culture than anything I am aware of. I would be very curious if that was the first time "moe" was used in it.

Edit: did my own research, yep, not only did they use the word, but they made a big scene about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIlWYDzINGU
Modified by Takuan_Soho, Apr 20, 2013 6:38 PM
 
Apr 20, 2013 9:41 PM
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okanagan said:

Right.
So it IS a masterpiece. It is the greatest of the past decade, as far as I can recall.
Great art can be ugly. A director who creates something like this can be a genius.


Agreed. This is the same director as Mushishi, so he was already a genius to begin with :)
.
 
Apr 21, 2013 5:37 AM

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It is the best of the season.
 
Apr 21, 2013 1:46 PM

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TallonKarrde23 said:
TimeTravel_0 said:
The ones who hate it just because of unusual animation style are quite pathetic.


The ones who love it just because of unusual animation style are quite pathetic.
Holy shit. Can you please lower the shit-stained elitism bro? Calm the fuck down and let people have opinions instead of blindly spewing out hate like a goddamn toilet.
 
Apr 21, 2013 4:01 PM

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TonyTin said:
TallonKarrde23 said:
TimeTravel_0 said:
The ones who hate it just because of unusual animation style are quite pathetic.


The ones who love it just because of unusual animation style are quite pathetic.
Holy shit. Can you please lower the shit-stained elitism bro? Calm the fuck down and let people have opinions instead of blindly spewing out hate like a goddamn toilet.


Indeed, god forbid people have different views, conformity for the win.
 
Apr 21, 2013 4:27 PM

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Here, we often see teenagers randomly stringing together some adjectives.
They are still building their vocabulary and learning grammar. They can't
type very well, understandably. So writing just one line is an effort.

I don't mind seeing their posts. It is good practice for them. Give them five
years and their thought processes and writing will mature. It is much better
for them to put up stupid posts here than not to build their experience at all.
 
Apr 22, 2013 5:54 AM
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At least Mushishi had a decent plot. AnH's is beyond one of the worst I've seen.
 
Apr 22, 2013 6:07 AM

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Takuan_Soho said:
I think a "watershed" moment for the mainstreaming of the word might not have anything to do with animation, but rather with the show "Densha Okoto" which debuted in 2005. Symbv might be able to explain whether I am right or not on this, but that show was a HUGE hit in Japan, and did more to mainstream "otaku" culture than anything I am aware of. I would be very curious if that was the first time "moe" was used in it
Indeed "Densha Otoko" is a big hit in Japan and contributed a lot to the awareness of Akihabara and the otaku culture for the mainstream society. It also helps to improve the image of otaku in general. Of course there were other coverage of Akihabara and otaku culture in other media or other TV shows at around the same time that help this as well (AKB48 coming from Akihabara is often mentioned as one thing that gets people to see Akihabara as a place of diversity), and the general outcome is that the public in Japan is now more aware of the notion of Akihabara's blend of culture niches and now holds a more positive image about it too.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Apr 22, 2013 10:47 AM

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Hard to believe that some of the same anime fans that I assumed had progressive views and an open mind about things would so vehemently crap on an anime that aims to move the medium forward.

And ANN is like Fox News/ What the hell? They don't create news or give their audience opinion as fact. They do, however, have editorials that are meant for entertainment or to inform people of the reviewers opinion. If those features don't jive with you, avoid reading them.
 
Apr 22, 2013 2:49 PM
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A japanese article about Aku no Hana, lmao :

http://blog.livedoor.jp/buta_soku/archives/25382083.html
 
Apr 22, 2013 3:52 PM
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Koromo_Toshinou said:
At least Mushishi had a decent plot. AnH's is beyond one of the worst I've seen.

That's something you should take up with the author then, not with the director. Because from what I've read, the anime is following the plot of the manga. The style was the only change that was made apparently. I haven't read the manga so I can't be sure about this of course.

But really, while the story may not be to your taste, that doesn't make it bad. It's good to be objective about these kinds of things otherwise it just goes into ranting, opinionated territory that no one takes seriously.

I think the extremely low rating on MAL is frankly an embarrassment. I guess I expected more from users on here than to rate something so low after 1 or 2 episodes. And for what? Just to throw a stupid fit and send a message? It only makes those individuals look bad.
Modified by Disapparate, Apr 22, 2013 3:59 PM
.
 
Apr 22, 2013 5:29 PM

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EVeryone hear is like a frickin Dream Treater fan....if ya don't like it... ignore it!

Also, stop deleting reviews like this is a fricking Inferno Cop situation all over again.
 
Apr 22, 2013 8:56 PM

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At least the people from ANN are smart.
 
Apr 22, 2013 11:19 PM

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Redfoxoffire said:
yunochi said:
they always review good anime with low score like they did with madoka, sao, guilty crown,,

They gave Madoka (the full series) a very good score.

SAO and Guilty Crown are shit.

To those reading:
While ANN gave basically a perfect dub score for Madoka, their article went into great deal of saying how bad it was. That's some IGN levels of shit. "9/10 guys, it's ok."
ANN, not even once.
 
Apr 22, 2013 11:34 PM

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Aku no Hana does a great job at being good for pretentious, hipster, and pseudo-intelligent people.
 
Apr 23, 2013 12:28 AM

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Riunite said:
Aku no Hana does a great job at being good for pretentious, hipster, and pseudo-intelligent people.


That's a joke, right? Please tell me that's a joke.
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