Not_Biased said: Nicole said: Not_Biased said: If you like stupidity, you should re-read some of your posts. Why would I need to do that? There is already your posts here that I can get my fill from. Also, I laughed when you suggested Christianity as some kind of moral teachings. I can't imagine anything more corrupted than that. Ethics is not only tied up with religion, but is completely settled by it. You've probably been brainwashed by your promiscuous friends. One point that most of the people cannot understand, by accepting a religion no one becomes a perfect human being, no one can guarantee that he will not do wrong. Religion's goal is to bring human closer to the divine--there's nothing corrupt about that. And yet religion was the cause of nearly every war over the majority of humanity's short existence ... Let's also not forget what a brilliant job they are doing with homosexuality at the moment, the Catholic church is the modern day's KKK, by blindly following the bible they basically condemn an entire group of people, a group of people who didn't choose to be sinners, but in the eye's of god they are evil? They are wrong? Ignorance is all around Christianity... I also believe that a pope was once quoted saying something along the lines of "contraceptives such as condoms are harmful, they do not prevent the spread of HIV but in fact help spread it", due to this their were thousand or even hundreds of thousands of cases in Africa, where often times following advice given by the missionaries would be considered prudent, instead wound up in a Hospital with HIV... The pope, the symbol of this so called religion that promotes morality, knowingly (unless he believes scientific evidence is surmountable to witch craft) told thousands of people "Condoms help spread aids, don't use contraceptives" ... where is the morality in that? Sexual promiscuity brought around by the use of contraceptives may also be immoral, but lying to the public, in such a way that he ruined the life of thousands of people, did in no way make him on the side of morality for trying to stop sexual promiscuity ... |
Pirating_NinjaApr 9, 2013 10:11 AM
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| Let's discuss what's so special about pedophilia rape. Is it really worse than the regular kind of rape and murder..... why..... I mean it could be just as traumatizing as being hit in the head with a bat......Does society and religion dictate it is so.....? I want to know the inner mechanisms of a child after being molested. Why do victims of molestation feel shame for being touched? clearly this man thought it was suitable for the death penalty HEH /discuss |
zzzeallyApr 9, 2013 11:34 AM
Not_Biased said: Ethics is not only tied up with religion, but is completely settled by it. You've probably been brainwashed by your promiscuous friends. One point that most of the people cannot understand, by accepting a religion no one becomes a perfect human being, no one can guarantee that he will not do wrong. Religion's goal is to bring human closer to the divine--there's nothing corrupt about that. I was raised in a very religious family, in one of the few stilly pretty religious countries in Europe. I know just how poisonous Religion is. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Cottonrabbit said: Stop falling back on that rape is bigger, and more personal, than could ever be analyzed (i.e. appeal to emotion), and we'll call it a deal.Response by Katsucats quoted in spoiler: Stop falling back on calling me politically correct. The first part of your question asked for a comparison to the feelings of rape (ie that it should be measurable in some way) and implied skepticism whether victims were exaggerating if they felt their life was over after a such trauma. There is no set response or scale that people conform to in response to trauma. Cottonrabbit said: The majority of references to pleasure in rape in this thread have been very specifically clarified, and just because someone uses the words "pleasure" and "rape" in the same sentence doesn't mean they're sympathetic to rapists. I call upon the people of MAL to read what people are saying before responding and overreacting.Given the prevalence of rape myths and the general ignorant acceptance of them, it is VERY important that if people are going to discuss "pleasure in rape" that they provide an explanation as to exactly what they mean. Are they simply talking about stimulation to the clitoris/penis which results in a physical response or are they suggesting that victims get a thrill out of being raped? Cottonrabbit said: Roy J. Levin; Willy van Berlo (2004-04). "Sexual arousal and orgasm in subjects who experience forced or non-consensual sexual stimulation – a review". Journal of Clinical Forensic Medicine (elsevier.com) 11 (2): 82–88. has been cited. You need to pay $31 to buy the full text, which I will not do. The authors conclude that although 5-6% admitted having orgasms during rape, the number might actually be suppressed because they speculate that most women would deny it. The "real" figures are impossible to say.By the way, do you have a link to your study on 1 in 20 women orgasm during rape? |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Resurrected said: If someone would rather die than deal with the stress of rape, then they would commit suicide or otherwise they're lying, or at the least if presented with an opportunity to ensure death they would take it. "Would rather die" in this context does not merely mean "accepting death", but preferring death.To clarify what I'm saying, committing suicide accepts death enough to overcome self-preservation but accepting death in itself doesn't necessarily override self-preservation. A better equation would be all X=Y but not all Y=X. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
ak47 said: Is sex necessarily intimate, and nothing else? For example, is having sex with an unconscious person or with a prostitute, or just having a drunken one-night fling intimate? And on the other side, can't promising one's son to take him to the park, building up his expectations, only to take pleasure in crushing it be considered an intimate betrayal, even if has nothing to do with sex?katsucats said: Yes. I'm not saying that it's worse than being, let's say, brutally tortured, but it's definitely something different.And that's what I want to discuss. Is the trauma behind rape really irreducible in that it cannot be compared to anything else? If not, what is the psychology, the state of mind, the dynamics, that cause this unmentionable trauma? Being raped is being denied the control of your own self, it's completely subjugation. It differs from other types of tortures because sex IS intimal, ak47 said: When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. I think the second half of your post begins to attempt exactly that.and rape is much more than just the act of sex - the rapist not only humiliates and derogates you, but takes pleasure from it. While I do think that society has to do with the shame that the victim feels, I believe it's a lot more about how she/he begins to perceive other people, but I have a headache right now and can't find the words to explain it. But ah, whatever. People who believe rape is irreducible are people who believe that it is impossible to say anything about it unless one has experienced it, and even then it's still impossible to say anything about it because rape is like no other thing in the world. I should not that comparing it to other things does not diminish the significance of it necessarily. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Maybe I didn't clarify enough. What I had meant was that, through the classification, and regarding 'rape', as a phenomena -- would only further as serve as a 'wall' or a cushion of sorts to fall back on, simply because when we use the word 'phenomenal' it is often regarded or constitutes something of high regard/unbelievable. Which in reality, rape happens, so much more so than we would actually think.Merriam-Webster defines phenomenon as an object or aspect known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition, or a spatiotemporal object of sensory experience -- in other words, an experience, an empirical event, which rape is. Rape, as with any other violation of the self, can be emotionally scarring. Please elaborate how regarding rape as an event that is experienced, or contending with the extent which it is scarring, would act as an "impetus for a defense mechanism" that is "unavoidable by all aspects". I don't see how the premise leads to your conclusion. katsucats said: Do I have to reply to this? The both of us agreed to this concept repeatedly, just in a super long way -- hahah.Putting yourself in the shoes of a victim is not only not irrelevant, but is a stable of empathy, law and psychology. The oft-stated "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" moral system is dependent on being able empathize with others; if this is deemed as irrelevant and "mere subjective speculation", then "Do unto others..." would be incomprehensible. Obviously not. The idea that one must have experienced an event to be able to conceive anything about that event is absurd. This thread is speculative, but it's not merely speculative, not any more so than Freud's entire work is "merely" speculative With that out of the way, all this passage seeks to establish is that this thread will be focused on the feelings of the victim instead of the feelings of the perpetrator. katsucats said: Yes. I wasn't using sanctity in a literal sense. I hope with further debates, we do not come across such complications without me having to denote it so. The things I say, usually have a more abstract and pragmatic nature to them. -- But anyways, I don't claim to be a psychiatrist or regard myself as anyone with a huge knowledge of the human psyche in anyway whatsoever, so as far as I'm concerned, my original point still stands. I mean, how else would one feel when their own physical comfort zones are violated? Rape is just an excessive form of violation.No offense intended, but do you mean to say that people respond to external objects infiltrating their physical comfort zones with negativity? I think, besides the sophistry behind "sanctity" (which really only makes sense in a religious context), that this is apparent, but that's not quite what I'm asking here. Instead of why people are uncomfortable with the act of rape, which is obvious, I want to know the trains of thought, the mental states, the social dynamics that that comprise the victim's emotional trauma after the rape. katsucats said: Saying that generally, when someone makes direct or indirect contact to you, and you find it offensive, people often respond by 'calling them out' ie -- adverse proverbs, profanity, etc, or, through violence ie -- a more 'physical' approach. And by gratification, I simply meant we are all self-conscious, and oft take a more conceptualized..endorsement in ourselves, more so than one would think.I'm not sure what you mean here. katsucats said: Yes, a strange position, but a exponentially and explainable position nonetheless. I'd look further into it, but, well. I'm sure you know the kind of 'state' I'm in right now. I wonder how long I have until my liver gives in -- haha.So you reason that rape of women should deserve a spot next to murder (but not rape of men) because of media or societal expectations of women to be "divine" (and might I add pure, prude, sexually repressed housewives that are remnants of the Victorian Era, or perhaps Roman Catholicism, whichever)...? I consider that to be quite a strange position to take, although it fully deserves further examination and scrutiny. katsucats said: Would this then lead to your point of "victims of rape, or who might succumb to rape, rather expect death/suicide?You misunderstand the point of the analogy. I am not saying victims of rape are socially inadequate, but that victims of bullying might feel much of the same trauma as victims of rape. katsucats said: Not much to say here, as I agree with you. Unless you really want to give each other speculated thoughts on how to pinpoint/find the most consequential matter that pertains to rape and it's traumatic effects.Sure, different people handle things in different ways or capacities, but are there any symptoms of post-rape trauma that are common in all, or most, rape victims, and what are the source causes behind those symptoms besides the rape itself? For example, I could cheat on a test and feel anxiety or guilt not necessarily because I cheated on the test, but because I would imagine the possibility of being caught and the associated consequences. For example, a rape victim might feel shame not necessarily because of the rape itself, but when she imagines and internalizes the label of "victim" or that her sexual status would belie the cultural standards for "proper" women. I believe behind every case of trauma, there is probably a fear of what might happen, as possible consequences, rather than just what did happen (e.g. the rape). katsucats said: Could you further elaborate as to what you mean by 'the whole system is consistent' and 'invaluable?'All aspects of the human mind are subjective, and this is no different. However, just because something is subjective doesn't mean it can't be discussed and agreed upon consistently -- the consistency between 2 subjective opinions anchor them to a sort of reality that gives people insight. When the whole system is consistent, it's still subjective, but it becomes invaluable. katsucats said: If anything, what else could they feel? And god I love that word.The question here is not whether we, as the ubiquitous third-party, judge these people differently, but whether victims of all these circumstances might feel a similar kind of shame. I suggested that they would if indeed the shame was sourced from a projection of inadequacy, or the presumption that "other people" are judging the victim, which may or may not be true. |
CigaretteApr 9, 2013 8:45 PM
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bottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. To be honest I don't think even a rape victim would understand these components of rape LOL |
| Lets ask Griffith XDDD |
Zeally said: soooobottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. does this mean you're goin for or against bottle's post? |
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Cigarette said: Zeally said: soooobottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. does this mean you're goin for or against bottle's post? i don't think i was really going against or for his post. He was misunderstanding the conversation and i just wanted to point that out to him. I guess i disagree with the notion that females can't have orgasms in a short period of time. |
Zeally said: well shitCigarette said: Zeally said: soooobottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. does this mean you're goin for or against bottle's post? i don't think i was really going against his post. He was misunderstanding the conversation and i just wanted to point that out to him. I guess i disagree with the notion that females can't have orgasms in a short period of time. Other than that i don't think i'm particularly against or going for his post tbh was gonna do the same but...you know i get ninja'd all da time good job zeally, good job |
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Cigarette said: Zeally said: well shitCigarette said: Zeally said: soooobottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. does this mean you're goin for or against bottle's post? i don't think i was really going against his post. He was misunderstanding the conversation and i just wanted to point that out to him. I guess i disagree with the notion that females can't have orgasms in a short period of time. Other than that i don't think i'm particularly against or going for his post tbh was gonna do the same but...you know i get ninja'd all da time good job zeally, good job wow u respond fast o.o |
Zeally said: Cigarette said: Zeally said: well shitCigarette said: Zeally said: soooobottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. does this mean you're goin for or against bottle's post? i don't think i was really going against his post. He was misunderstanding the conversation and i just wanted to point that out to him. I guess i disagree with the notion that females can't have orgasms in a short period of time. Other than that i don't think i'm particularly against or going for his post tbh was gonna do the same but...you know i get ninja'd all da time good job zeally, good job wow u respond fast o.o Zeally said: Cigarette said: Zeally said: well shitCigarette said: Zeally said: soooobottle said: If the victim is a female and she has orgasm, then it implies a worse scenario as most women won't have orgasm in a short time. Having it implies she had been raped for a long duration, or she may have been drugged. It feels even more nasty to imagine. One can also kidnap a girl and rape her every day and give her some food just to keep her alive, the victim may have sympathy with the offender in the end too... would it be great? The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. No body knows how serious as we can't turn back the time and study the same person with an alternative settings. It's a crime against personal security and pride with potentially fatal outcome. Rapist can kill if they don't want to be reported. Bear this in mind. The fear is always there when someone offend you with threat. PTSD is not unheard of from these patients. They can re-live the memory in the street they return home or anywhere similar; or every night leading to insomnia and cannot work; or when the man they like request to go deeper in relationship. the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. ^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. does this mean you're goin for or against bottle's post? i don't think i was really going against his post. He was misunderstanding the conversation and i just wanted to point that out to him. I guess i disagree with the notion that females can't have orgasms in a short period of time. Other than that i don't think i'm particularly against or going for his post tbh was gonna do the same but...you know i get ninja'd all da time good job zeally, good job wow u respond fast o.o thats because im a lion. an alcoholic lion. |
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Cigarette said: No. Phenomenon =/= phenomenalCigarette said: Your original point isn't wrong, but it isn't exactly relevant to the topic.Cigarette said: I can't see the connection. I noted before that many people seem to accept that rape victims are somehow allowed to accept death, but when considering suicide by itself the become stoutly against it. I think that is contradictory, doublethink. With the passage above, I only wanted to establish that the feelings behind rape trauma could be broken down and compared to other feelings to make it more easily discussable -- more down to earth, so to speak, which is not the same as diminishing or dismissing the rape trauma. katsucats said: Would this then lead to your point of "victims of rape, or who might succumb to rape, rather expect death/suicide? You misunderstand the point of the analogy. I am not saying victims of rape are socially inadequate, but that victims of bullying might feel much of the same trauma as victims of rape. Cigarette said: Yes, that is the main point of this thread.Cigarette said: People often act as it just because some idea is subjective that it's pointless to pursue it any further because it couldn't be quantified, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It is true that the subjective can't be quantified in terms of the objective, but it can be compared with other subjective. By comparing, and distinguishing between subjective ideas, we can come up with a consistent approach to a class of these ideas. For example, you often see MAL posts saying, "It's just my opinion" as if that's the end of it -- that's all that matters. But that line tells us absolutely nothing. In order to give more insight, you support your opinions with examples, analogies, comparisons and contrasts with other works -- all these things are the bread and butter of any good review, and by the end of the article you should be able to nod your head and think, "I know exactly what the author meant"! And what is a review besides giving the reader insight into the psychology of the reviewer, his experiences, while watching the anime he's reviewing?We're doing the same thing here with rape trauma, so when someone claims that some topic is merely subjective and can't be discussed, one has to wonder how the hell does this guy even relate to any person or artwork? For example, he would read a book and according to his own logic, it would be fruitless and impossible to discern the intentions of the author because it's subjective. Cigarette said: Many different factors have been brought up in addition to shame: distrust, resigning to consequences, alienation, etc. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Zeally said: Right, I didn't mean whether the intensity of trauma is reducible, but whether the factors of rape are reducible. Is rape trauma a prime number, or can it be factored? For example, a bottle might consist of glass, the lid, the airtight sealer, the label, etc., instead of being just one impossible to describe thing.bottle said: the fuq some women are ultra sensitive and can have multiple orgasms in a short period of time. OP did not use the word reducible in that context. When I used the word "reducible", I meant the ability to quantify or classify it in terms of something else more basic, to categorize the act of rape into an act of many components that comprise rape. The trauma IS reducible but it may stay there for life. Zeally said: Rape does have a recipe. I agree that many people might not understand the components of their own psychology. Sometimes things are easier to see from the outside looking in.^^ whatever the fuck that means lmao. Quantifying and classifying rape into an act of many components....... Sounds like rape has a recipe. To be honest I don't think even a rape victim would understand these components of rape LOL |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Now I know that having the root does not necessarily mean pertaining to the origin or rather, the adjective excerpt, but still. It is still classified as a rare occurrence of sorts. I just felt the need to point it out that regardless of what anyone says, if they consider it to be a phenom of sorts, it would then only serve as a safety blanket. Unless you weren't using it in such context.No. Phenomenon =/= phenomenal katsucats said: Fuck yeah, now I feel so good about myself. Your original point isn't wrong, but it isn't exactly relevant to the topic. katsucats said: Would you agree or disagree that this only further reiterates my account of the societal view on women? I can't see the connection. I noted before that many people seem to accept that rape victims are somehow allowed to accept death, but when considering suicide by itself the become stoutly against it. I think that is contradictory, doublethink. With the passage above, I only wanted to establish that the feelings behind rape trauma could be broken down and compared to other feelings to make it more easily discussable -- more down to earth, so to speak, which is not the same as diminishing or dismissing the rape trauma. katsucats said: I don't want to get into an argument of semantics here, as it won't be beneficial towards the topic, and would only derail it as such, so onto the beefy and most controversial part of the topic..People often act as it just because some idea is subjective that it's pointless to pursue it any further because it couldn't be quantified, but that couldn't be further from the truth. It is true that the subjective can't be quantified in terms of the objective, but it can be compared with other subjective. By comparing, and distinguishing between subjective ideas, we can come up with a consistent approach to a class of these ideas. For example, you often see MAL posts saying, "It's just my opinion" as if that's the end of it -- that's all that matters. But that line tells us absolutely nothing. In order to give more insight, you support your opinions with examples, analogies, comparisons and contrasts with other works -- all these things are the bread and butter of any good review, and by the end of the article you should be able to nod your head and think, "I know exactly what the author meant"! And what is a review besides giving the reader insight into the psychology of the reviewer, his experiences, while watching the anime he's reviewing? We're doing the same thing here with rape trauma, so when someone claims that some topic is merely subjective and can't be discussed, one has to wonder how the hell does this guy even relate to any person or artwork? For example, he would read a book and according to his own logic, it would be fruitless and impossible to discern the intentions of the author because it's subjective. katsucats said: Though I agree that many different forms of embarrassment and or shame can constitute to this dilemma, but perhaps, we should garner a healthy..more provocative moniker and then speculate upon it thoroughly? I'm only proposing this idea. And then by doing so, perhaps, we could...find it applicable in a way, as to how the dynamics (as you said it) comprises a form of unjust, fixated, and unmentionable trauma?Many different factors have been brought up in addition to shame: distrust, resigning to consequences, alienation, etc. |
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| know your privelege white male scum rape is worse than the holocaust |
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StrictlyStupid said: know your privelege white male scum rape is worse than the holocaust Your atrocious grammar, spelling, and comment just gave me cancer. Thanks |
| yes orgasm is achieved through physical stimulation. I doesn't matter if it was consensual or not. If you put something in the hole it might just orgasm. :| Big scientific revelation am i right. |
Cottonrabbit said: Neither. You give yourself the license to read into and assign questionable motivations to other people's posts, but do not allow other people to do the same for your posts. If we must have this conversation according to your narrative, then I too am done.katsucats said: I can't tell if you are genuinely or deliberately misunderstanding my point. Regardless, I am done.Cottonrabbit said: Stop falling back on that rape is bigger, and more personal, than could ever be analyzed (i.e. appeal to emotion), and we'll call it a deal. Stop falling back on calling me politically correct. The first part of your question asked for a comparison to the feelings of rape (ie that it should be measurable in some way) and implied skepticism whether victims were exaggerating if they felt their life was over after a such trauma. There is no set response or scale that people conform to in response to trauma. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| There is another thing which people have partly mentioned, but mostly missed. Becoming pregnant from rape is a huge deal, not all women find it easy to decide to have an abortion (and go through with it) I know personally that (although I completely agree with the right to have one) I know that having an abortion is something that I couldn't do (under normal circumstances, ie not rape) but I can't imagine how difficult this decision would be, had I become pregnant from something like this. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Not_Biased said: Seems legit. Her parents forced her to go to church every weekend, look how poisonous it is, guys. *Doesn't know what he's talking about, assumes he does* Sounds like a religious person to me. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: I feel like this is from a movie...but said woman instead, chose to keep the baby. There is another thing which people have partly mentioned, but mostly missed. Becoming pregnant from rape is a huge deal, not all women find it easy to decide to have an abortion (and go through with it) I know personally that (although I completely agree with the right to have one) I know that having an abortion is something that I couldn't do (under normal circumstances, ie not rape) but I can't imagine how difficult this decision would be, had I become pregnant from something like this. HMM.... |
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Cigarette said: I feel like this is from a movie...but said woman instead, chose to keep the baby. HMM.... There are people that do decide to keep the baby, even from rape, but it's a very small number. And just to make it more difficult, almost certainly one day your son/daughter is going to ask you about their father/birth, so you're worried about that as well (and worried about how they'd react knowing they are the product of something like that). |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: Well er, I wasn't trying to deduce such facts. But I'm sure there are a handful of them out there.Cigarette said: I feel like this is from a movie...but said woman instead, chose to keep the baby. HMM.... There are people that do decide to keep the baby, even from rape, but it's a very small number. And just to make it more difficult, almost certainly one day your son/daughter is going to ask you about their father/birth, so you're worried about that as well (and worried about how they'd react knowing they are the product of something like that). That's what lies are for. |
CigaretteApr 10, 2013 2:53 AM
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Zeally said: yes orgasm is achieved through physical stimulation. I doesn't matter if it was consensual or not. If you put something in the hole it might just orgasm. :| Big scientific revelation am i right. Not speaking from experience (since I'm a dude) but a female's orgasm isn't something that happens automatically and has a lot more to do with the mental state than a male which is purely physical ... in other words, the fact that even when having normal sex it is hard for some females to achieve orgasm, so thinking that w/o this they just orgasm like that ... Fucking retarded ... especially since in rape there is no stimulation, if you just shove it in it will most likely actually just hurt (lets just say that foreplay is semi important, not for the dude but for the female) ... IE Rape (unless they have a fetish for getting raped) will almost NEVER (if ever) cause a female to orgasm ... If I am wrong (since I am a dude and don't have a vagina or ever asked a girl "would you feel good, sexually, if you got raped?") feel free to correct me but I doubt I am as wrong as your statement. |
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Teth said: I haven't directly compared rape and bullying in the above passage, but please share us a link that compares rape trauma to bullying regardless. It may be an interesting read."Katsucats" said: all studies I've come across on the subject of PTSD that have measured the symptom severity of categorised events (i.e. post traumatic events - PTEs) indicate rape to be significantly more likely to produce greater distress and behavioural dysfunction than what would be tantamount to bullying (for instance being threatened with weapons). You misunderstand the point of the analogy. I am not saying victims of rape are socially inadequate, but that victims of bullying might feel much of the same trauma as victims of rape....sure, different people handle things in different ways or capacities, but are there any symptoms of post-rape trauma that are common in all, or most, rape victims, and what are the source causes behind those symptoms besides the rape itself? Teth said: I want to suggest that a traumatic event is not the smallest unit, that every event, traumatic or otherwise, could be split up into distinct elements when analyzed carefully after the fact. While PTSD might be triggered by the combined effect of each of these elements and considered a condition on its own, it may also be possible that these elements have effects of their own.comparing traumatic event types the most deleterious is probably that of the combined effects of being captured and tortured, whereas extremely violent assaults (partly distinguished from combat trauma and previously mentioned instances of harassment akin to bullying) and rape share approximate equivalence. The exact differences are I would presume still in doubt though it could be said the aforesaid categories share broad characteristics which contribute in such a way to the symptom severity of these events. To address your other query, there is indication that whilst PTSD is a sufficient definition for a generalised syndrome there are different patterns of symptoms which are distinguishable between traumatic events and these in turn can most likely be used to differentiate between the same categories that are highly likely to produce a PTSD condition. For example, how do you suppose a victim would feel if the perpetrator holds her down against her will like he would do in rape, except instead of vaginal penetration, he spends hours drawing on her back non-sexually with a permanent marker? How much of the trauma can be attributed to the battery, and how much to the actual rape? If rape trauma is truly inseparable from the entire act of rape, can we safely say that the woman who was drawn on will feel no component of rape trauma, or that her feelings will have no chance of approaching the scale of a rape victim? I don't think that would be the case. Teth said: In order to observe a consequence and entertain it as a complex system with many contributing factors playing interrelated roles, one must first isolate those factors and then put them back together, seeing how the pieces fit.For example, a rape victim might feel shame not necessarily because of the rape itself, but when she imagines and internalizes the label of "victim" or that her sexual status would belie the cultural standards for "proper" women. I believe behind every case of trauma, there is probably a fear of what might happen, as possible consequences, rather than just what did happen (e.g. the rape). I'm inclined to suggest that rather than isolate one possible interpretation both motivating elements play a contributing and interrelated role. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Teth said: I don't believe experiences are unified totalities, or at least that the experiences we are discussing are not the atomic unit of a singular experience, but more like groups of experiences referred to as an "experience" out of convenience.Well the first problem is sufficiently obvious, or would become so shortly into any attempt, and that is just what constitutes an atomic psychological factor. But more pressingly this approach would inexorably lead to omission of salient details because experiences are unified totalities. Teth said: How would you propose to express facts about a relational composition without the objects of which allow there to be a relation?A concept the gestalt theorists touched upon and which extends to so many facets of psychological operations that it is an inextricable aspect of experience. Which is to say experience cannot be schematised in exclusive reference to theoretically discrete entities of experience when it is the relational composition which fully realises the very modality and character of all experience. Teth said: It would make for categorically different instances of battery, one of which is 'rape' and one not -- both potentially incurring the same PTSD severity. If so, then it would prove in all likelihood that rape itself is not responsible for the totality of 'rape trauma'. 'Rape' is not an isolated action (one must do a bunch of things in order to achieve rape). The victim experiences all of these actions in sequence, but recounts the entire event as one "experience".Katsucats said: this would make for categorically different instances of 'rape', although if I follow the latter instance it isn't rape per se, or perhaps more specifically if you mean a form of sexual molestation without penetration (although going by memory I don't recall exactly which forms qualify for different categories) then that too is accommodated in the general literature when discussing rape as a variety of PTEs and how severity of PTSD symptomology varies. For example, how do you suppose a victim would feel if the perpetrator holds her down against her will like he would do in rape, except instead of vaginal penetration, he spends hours drawing on her back non-sexually with a permanent marker? How much of the trauma can be attributed to the battery, and how much to the actual rape? If rape trauma is truly inseparable from the entire act of rape, can we safely say that the woman who was drawn on will feel no component of rape trauma, or that her feelings will have no chance of approaching the scale of a rape victim? I don't think that would be the case. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
katsucats said: Teth said: I don't believe experiences are unified totalities, or at least that the experiences we are discussing are not the atomic unit of a singular experience, but more like groups of experiences referred to as an "experience" out of convenience.Well the first problem is sufficiently obvious, or would become so shortly into any attempt, and that is just what constitutes an atomic psychological factor. But more pressingly this approach would inexorably lead to omission of salient details because experiences are unified totalities. Teth said: How would you propose to express facts about a relational composition without the objects of which allow there to be a relation?A concept the gestalt theorists touched upon and which extends to so many facets of psychological operations that it is an inextricable aspect of experience. Which is to say experience cannot be schematised in exclusive reference to theoretically discrete entities of experience when it is the relational composition which fully realises the very modality and character of all experience. Teth said: It would make for categorically different instances of battery, one of which is 'rape' and one not -- both potentially incurring the same PTSD severity. If so, then it would prove in all likelihood that rape itself is not responsible for the totality of 'rape trauma'. 'Rape' is not an isolated action (one must do a bunch of things in order to achieve rape). The victim experiences all of these actions in sequence, but recounts the entire event as one "experience".Katsucats said: this would make for categorically different instances of 'rape', although if I follow the latter instance it isn't rape per se, or perhaps more specifically if you mean a form of sexual molestation without penetration (although going by memory I don't recall exactly which forms qualify for different categories) then that too is accommodated in the general literature when discussing rape as a variety of PTEs and how severity of PTSD symptomology varies. For example, how do you suppose a victim would feel if the perpetrator holds her down against her will like he would do in rape, except instead of vaginal penetration, he spends hours drawing on her back non-sexually with a permanent marker? How much of the trauma can be attributed to the battery, and how much to the actual rape? If rape trauma is truly inseparable from the entire act of rape, can we safely say that the woman who was drawn on will feel no component of rape trauma, or that her feelings will have no chance of approaching the scale of a rape victim? I don't think that would be the case. 1. Find Female 2. Overpower Female 3. Strip Female of all clothing 4. Unzip own pants 5. Take out the peniz 6. Insert in the vagina 7. ???????? 8. Rape achieved |
Teth said: I gave a glance through the Tolin and Foa study as well as a similar study that referenced both Tolin and Foa, and Breslau. These studies do not focused on comparing traumatic events between bullying and rape, rather they are focused on comparing traumatic experiences by gender. In fact, the aforementioned studies conclude no significant difference in PTE between sexual and non-sexual assaults. There is, however, a 2-fold increase in PTE in cases where the victim was female, as opposed to male, regardless of the type of assault.'feel much the same' as a point leading into whether there are essential differences is a comparison of sorts. As to references the most definitive I would recommend prior to searching for any more recent articles is Tolin and Foa (2008) 'Sex differences in trauma and post-tramautic disorder: a quantitative review of 25 years research' (something to that effect) for a useful meta-analysis. And also just about any material from Breslau relating to the subject/s from about 2000 onwards that includes use of the Detroit Area Survey of Trauma. Both have initiated comparisons between trauma events and severity and I imagine their work has been expanded upon by a few more researchers in recent times. The following graph demonstrates part of what I wanted to establish in this thread, that trauma associated with rape may not be caused by the sexual act in itself: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108182/ (spoilered for size) Note that there is no significant difference between the percentage of victims with PTSD from sexual and physical abuses; if anything, physical abuse PTSD is slightly higher in women, and significantly higher in men. From this, we could conclude that the sexual component in rape does not contribute significantly, if at all, to the number of PTSD cases. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Not_Biased said: I know exactly what I'm talking about. I dug deeper and found you want to leave college because you think it "does not suit you". You are totally doing and thinking the opposite of what you should do. This is obviously the result of the bad influence of your friends on you. So tell me, what is gonna suit you better? Prostitution or the american dream of marrying a rich man? What exactly does this have to do with you? Apparently you didn't dig deep enough, since I've discussed what I'm going to do with my life many times already. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
| i'm always surprised by how most westerners rate rape as worse than murder. |
| http://kagami77.imgur.com/ Latest event pictures: Lucky Star Hiiragi Sister's Birthday Event (7/7), Nisekoifes (6/22), Wake Up, Girls! FESTA. (4/27) |
| I can only imagine that the victim would feel powerless with their pride and dignity gone. If it happened to me the only thing that could satisfy me would be to kill the perpetrator, I wouldn't care if they were brought to justice as the law defines it. Not that they would ever find out, I'd have enough pride to keep whatever dignity I have left by not telling others while taking it into my own hands. If unable to take justice into my own hands I would forgive that person crazy as it might sound while acknowledging that I'm stronger and this event is not enough to defeat me. |
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