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Poll: Who were the real bad guys?


#1
Feb 18, 2013 12:49 AM
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So the Snake wanted to create a new world for Tomogara where they can live in peace without fearing the Flame Haze 24/7. It would also save humanity from Tomogara since they'll all move to the new world. A very noble cause.

So what the fuck is the Flame Haze's problem? They lose their stress relievers. As we all know, Flame Haze are just giant balls of hatred seeking revenge and completely massacring tomogara (good or bad) at the mere sight of them. To see them all gone would mean they lose their purpose.

The King of Guzes are more like sadistic tyrants seeking to inflict maximum pain on their fellow tomogara citizens. Why the hell are they forming contracts with psychopaths and encouraging them to get revenge at any cost?

The Four Gods? Psychopaths (especially the girl). Their one-sided massacre was completely unnecessary and I'm sure half of the reason wasn't just to instill fear but because they enjoyed it (especially the girl). They even went to the new world so they had some prey to massacre since they would be bored in the normal world.

The modification to the insignia? Pointless since the Snake had that planned since the beginning (to not consume humans) and they had unlimited PoE anyways.

To be honest, Xanadu would've solved both sides problems but the Flame Haze wouldn't give up. They have been drowned in violence and vengeance they forgot their original purpose (to protect humans). They simply wanted the Tomogara to stay so they themselves had a purpose, to keep killing tomogara.

I cannot help but see the Flame Haze as villains in this series. They had no purpose or goal except to smash, kill, maim, destroy, obliterate, annihilate, etc.
Modified by coolxal, Feb 18, 2013 1:13 AM
 
#2
Feb 19, 2013 8:39 PM

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Yeah true. Flame Hazes just kill because they have grudges. Best Flame Haze in the story is probably Khamsin.

 
#3
Feb 19, 2013 8:42 PM

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To be honest, I don't even know what was everyone's motive except for Yuji's.... Storyline became so needlessly intricate because the authors tried too hard.
 
#4
Feb 19, 2013 9:25 PM

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True, A lot of the flame hazes moved to the new world as well even the main cast xD Seemed like a lot of needless deaths happened in that last season so many died in vain. But in the end it was kind of like a real war where there isn't really bad guys or good guys the "Big bosses" just got into an argument and all the peons got pulled into it.
 
#5
Feb 23, 2013 7:36 AM

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The whole war was just a pointless slaughter fest just like most wars are.
I thinks that was the idea of the writers (to show that war is bad duh)
It was just done really well.
In season 1 you start of with the assumption the Denizens were evil creatures that kill humans. And of course since Flame Hazes kill them you'd think they are the good guys.
But as the series progresses you learn that Flame Hazes don't give a shit about protecting humans and they just want to kill all Denizens.
All the way up to season 3 where all of the Flame Hazes start slaughtering Denizens
in a 1 sided battle while all of Denizen leaders are off trying to make Xanadu.
When Yuji/the leader states his ultimate plan for peace between the 2 races what do the Flame Hazes do?
They keep fighting. It is true that some of them were hesitant but the leaders convinced them anyway.
And again at the end when Xanadu is complete and all the Denizens think they can go live in peace those "Gods" decide to go there as well and "make sure everything is fine"

So in conclusion both sides had people thinking they were doing the right thing and also had people who just wanted fighting and destruction. Thousands died for nothing and war goes no matter what Yuji tried to accomplish.
 
#6
Apr 7, 2014 5:48 AM

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As the poll clearly shows, there can be no mistaking who the Villains are in this twisted Show.


Season 3 had the most pointless 20 episode fight ever. Anytime i hear someone complain about long fights in DBZ or whatever, i will point to this atrocity and say - Look here is an endless fight, that accomplished absolutely nothing, completely failed w/its loose definition of good vs evil, as the Flame Hazes were the True Villains, bloodthirsty and without a smidgen of reason for fighting besides for the sake of fighting, while the Tomogara had a legit plan and were perfectly reasonable. What's worse the battle is so 1 sided as to be criminal, with basically no Flame Hazes of import dying (like the Universally Despised Old Hag Nun Bitch), and a plethora of likable badass Tomogara dying (Eel Decarabia, Sarbac, Fecor etc etc).
 
#7
Apr 14, 2015 2:06 AM

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Physiicx said:
To be honest, I don't even know what was everyone's motive except for Yuji's.... Storyline became so needlessly intricate because the authors tried too hard.


Tomogara - Create their paradise

Flame Haze - stop them from creating their paradise, because they believed that the Tomogara would continue to devour the human souls in the new world, which would eventually leak into the human world (somehow) and screw up the balance. Not for thousands of years, but it would eventually happen.
But we don't learn into the end that the Tomogara don't want to devour humans in the new world, and instead co-exist with them peacefully. So, not all of them were like the ones the series had shown up to that point. (Because where would be the plot if they were all nice.)

In the end, the Flame Haze go to the new world, because they feel like they don't have a place in the human world anymore. Some of them might still go to try and get revenge, but someone mentioned a sequel story of some sort where Yuji goes around keeping the peace.
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#8
Oct 8, 2015 6:31 AM

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There were NO real badguys in this series. Both sides were doing what they were created to do. Both the Flame Hazes and Denizens were mirrors of each others. The Denizens lived to fulfill their own desires and many of them consumed existence to do this. The flame Hazes were mostly created from the violence caused by the Denizens and with the sole exception of Shana all held grudges and did what they did out of revenge. Also their survival depended on them being hard. The one's who cared and loved others died young. To keep the balance they really had to steel their hearts. It was evident that Shana did not always like killing Denizens, especially the one she kept screaming shut up at because it just wanted to exist. Look at Hunter Friange. All he wanted to do was give his doll an independent life. That was his whole desire yet he was willing to wipe out a city to do it. His actions were evil but his purpose wasn't. Earth changed the Denizens. If you'll watch it all again you'll see that most of the so called bad denizens were somehow trying to mimic humans. One was trying to create a human body, one was trying to bring life to his doll. Most just wanted to fit in and be with the humans but they were also very callous towards those humans and would consume and kill them to be more like them.

On the other hand you have the Flame Hazes who were created through violence. Their sole job is to protect the balance, not to save lives. They took their duties very seriously. They were fighting because Xanadu would NOT solve the problems. The problem was that Denizens would still be able to devour humans and use them. It would take something much bigger than paradise to change the hearts and minds of every Denizen. They kept fighting because they knew this. Also Xanadu would not stop Denizens from eventually coming back one day and not every denizen left Earth. It would have only been a temporary playground for the Deniznes and they feared that in time they would devour many of the humans there causing the imbalance to build up in the rift and that it's creation would only be a temporary band aid. So they fought to change that. Also it's hard to give up your only reason for existing. Imagine your whole life consumed by one single purpose then all of a sudden that purpose is meaningless. It's what they've know, it's all they've known. I think that many of them went to Xanadu not only to kind of guard the humans and police the Denizens but to also heal. To learn a new way and to make up for their sins by helping the Denizens. Most of them that went were the outcasts and rebels, the weirdo's, mainly the kind of people that are capable and willing to exist with the Denizens. I imagine it must be as hard on them knowing they've killed a lot of denizens as it is for the denizens knowing they've destroyed a lot of humans. The two sides are so much alike.

And it wasn't the Snake's plan to create Xanadu the way he did. His plan was to create it without the extra bit that would stop Denizens from consuming humans but after the Oracle's speech the Denizens all wished to not be able to consume humans. They had come to love and respect mankind and wanted to live with them. Phele's and Johann's baby was a new beginning for all of them and in time I see many of them co-mingling with humans and creating a new race, a race forged on forgiveness, change and love.

Both sides fought for what they believed were right. Neither side was willing to back down or to ask the other for help. This is why Yuji and Shana left. To help bridge that gap and to teach them the lessons they've learned. Shana forgave Yuji for everything because she loved him. That is the message that they want to share and together I believe they can do it. It's hard to let go of your hatred but in the end I think both sides were learning.

The four God's were scary though. Their sole purpose seems to be to punish denizens and destroy them. Maybe that's why they're so reluctant to join sides? Their role isn't to protect but to condemn. No wonder they don't fight often. They were only killing denizens who had consumed humans or denizens who enjoyed consuming humans. It was harsh but Xanadu will be a better place for it. They destroyed most of the truly evil denizens so that they would never forget that there are consequences for your actions. They too went to Xanadu to keep an eye on the denizens but I also think they left for the same reason that Shana and Yuji did, to learn how to change and to find a new way. I don't think it will come easy for them but in time I think they'll get there. At some points I think those god's were driven half mad it not fully insane lol.

Shana kept fighting for Yuji, she fought for love and wasn't fighting to stop him but to change things, just like he was. They need to learn to trust each other and to lean on each other. I don't think Yuji will make that same mistake. Love is so much stronger than hate and Shana just showed every single Flame Haze and Denizen that. Also the reason that Sydonay fell and died was because he loved Hecate. He didn't want to wait thousands of years for her to return and this way he'll get to be with her more often than not. I think in the end that he felt Xanadu had no place for old warriors like him. It should be a place for denizens and humans who want to change, a true paradise with no war. I think he also felt like Yuji and thought maybe he didn't deserve to go to paradise for all that he'd done. Either way his ending was still happy. Now he's with his Hecate. :)

There was a reason for all the fighting. Both sides had their reasons and in the end I think both sides began to learn to trust and help each other. Out of all the so called badguys the one that surprised me the most was Bel Peol. In season two when Shana and Yuji defeated the big silver armor guy: Silver and ruined their plans, right after they had won and reunited as the place was blowing apart Shana and Yuji had said some things to each other, I don't remember what exactly but basically just sharing their feelings for each other and it showed Bel Peopl kind of smile and give a nod as she left the place. Like she approved of their love and was happy for them even though what they had done was against her plans. I never once saw her consume a single human and the only times she fought was for defense. I really thought at first that she was going to be a big villain but it turns out that she wasn't that bad at all. I feel that she was in love with the Snake of the Festival and was not only doing what she did so that they'd have Xanadu but was also doing it out of love for him and it seems like the Snake was very fond of her too. I would have loved to know more about her but she really surprised me. She didn't even enter the final battle in any way. I think out of most of the Denizens that she will be instrumental in helping them to all learn a new way.
 
#9
Oct 9, 2015 12:00 PM
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The Flame Haze are monsters created by the Denizen, the Denizen are non-humans who are hunted by the Flame Haze for eating humans and being Denizen, The four gods murders (They don't fight Denizen, no they slaughter them in mass.) So we get stuck in an interesting situation where the Denizen caused it all, as they not only ate people to make emotional people, but some Denizen side with these emotional people and get them to kill the Denizen.

I see it this way, Hitler is often considered evil but he got that way because of varies things that happened to him like the Allies forcing an unfair treaty and debt on Germany. So I ask if its him that's evil or is it the people that caused him to do the acts that he did? Should we judge people for their actions, or should we judge the people who influenced those people's actions?

Well for me I'll say that the Flame Haze were the evil ones of the story. I liked the Denizen and watching them get massacred for simply wanting to get away is rather sad.
 
Oct 11, 2015 8:05 AM
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I don't know WTF is Happening, the only part that i liked is Shana Eating melon pan and the ending. Coz it ends
 
Jan 24, 2016 7:27 PM

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Flame haze, the non-battle crazed ones anyway, protect the world order and stop the eventual collapse of the world into chaos due to the tomogara eating humans existence or at least this is my take on it.

I do question the slaughter in the final episodes even though they couldn't exactly implement the plan without distracting the hordes, once it was done and they thought they'd won its more baffling. The thing about teaching them the fate that awaits them if they eat humans is extremely harsh but in a war between ageless beings I guess these kind of extremes can be justified.

A question that throws me off much more than this one since I came to terms with it to my own satisfaction is why the Tomogara don't just stop eating humans if they simply want to co-exist, I mean Lamies is already a precedent for the fact that the non battle-crazed flame haze won't hunt them and of course if you don't eat humans you dont get battle crazd flame haze soooooooooooooo.........
Sit back, smoke up and chill to Madoka Rebellion. A truly beautiful experience that matches and perhaps even surpasses any iyashikei....provided you're at peace with it before starting XD
 
Jan 26, 2016 2:58 AM

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ScarletSentry said:

A question that throws me off much more than this one since I came to terms with it to my own satisfaction is why the Tomogara don't just stop eating humans if they simply want to co-exist, I mean Lamies is already a precedent for the fact that the non battle-crazed flame haze won't hunt them and of course if you don't eat humans you dont get battle crazd flame haze soooooooooooooo.........

They have to consume Power of Existence in order to stay in the human world. In Xanadu, Power of Existence is overflowing and thus it is no longer required to consume humans.
 
Jan 26, 2016 10:53 AM

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Aassdddai said:
ScarletSentry said:

A question that throws me off much more than this one since I came to terms with it to my own satisfaction is why the Tomogara don't just stop eating humans if they simply want to co-exist, I mean Lamies is already a precedent for the fact that the non battle-crazed flame haze won't hunt them and of course if you don't eat humans you dont get battle crazd flame haze soooooooooooooo.........

They have to consume Power of Existence in order to stay in the human world. In Xanadu, Power of Existence is overflowing and thus it is no longer required to consume humans.


Nice one, thanks I missed that.
Sit back, smoke up and chill to Madoka Rebellion. A truly beautiful experience that matches and perhaps even surpasses any iyashikei....provided you're at peace with it before starting XD
 
Mar 18, 2016 7:50 AM
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Wow, seems some other people had the same though as me.

I just finished the show, what i dont get is, they feared the creation of xanadu cause if the dont forbid the consuming of humans the leak of power of existense would maybe backfire, but if they had they idea and the means of getting in a rule to prevent that why didnt they make that the first choice? cause lots of denizens gone, they dont have to consume humans there, no need for flame haze, that would be the best options, and even with back up from the God of Guidance to convince most of the denizens it would be the better way, why the all out battle at palace of stars/seireiden? I mean for real most of the denizens gone, escpeciallythe trinity and bal masque, no devouring anymore and killing of the rest of the remaining denizins could stillb e done. what would have happened if they had actually prevent the snake or xanadu? what if they didnt kill of hecate,yuji,belpeol,sydonay,the seeker,sabrac? it woudl have started all over again in a millenia or two.

oen other thing if some of the denizins dont want to devour humans, why did they coem to the human wolr din the first place why didnt most of them stay in the crimson world? is it ever mentioned why so much of them got to the human world in the first place?

the 4 four gods or 3 later are totally crazym the girl but the god of death also killing of hundreds of low level denizens that just wanted to leave, even if they needed a distratction for shana and the gang getting in the spell for canceling the all you can eat buffet, is like slaughtering refugee cause most of them wanted to get out of the battlezone and leave the world.

does it really make sense that so much go to xanadu of the flame haze and even the gods, they killed each other for more than 3000 years, i would think we can assume that this goes on for over far longer, so all the hatred is away just cause the denizens want to behave?

than if soem like friagne or lami need power of existence for soem purposes, why didnt the other everneeded it? like hecate sydonay after all the fighting they did, or the seekerprofessoer? they lost a lot and would have to restore it somewhere, second if power of existence is the energie that drives all, where excatly get the flames hazes their fighting skill from?

and at the one guy who said dbz fight go on to long they do cause its a lot of smack talk and mostly only 2-4 fighting this is a large scale war and no 1 on 1 battle, even so i would have liked to see the fight between shana and yuji a bit longer.

in summary i really think its a real good story cause, people like ike, sato realize their fellings earlie or like ogata and kazumi persuing them and not the drag on about dieniyng them and playing dumb, only excluson being the mc yuji for some points, for shana she knows of here feeling but doenst know what to do about it, and they even ask adults for advice in their emotional situations, what you dont often see much in animes, cause in real life even if its not your parents there might be an older friend or sibling or some one else you feel close, too.
so the emotional growth of the characters is nice continiously and at most realisitc.

for the war well since you can see both sides there is no really good or bad. in most storys you can relate pretty good to one side. it is the realism that not everything is black or white in this anime especially the third season whic makes it so catching, well sometimes i though it was ust to aweful on how many died on both sides, especially the one god who devoured one for multipliyng his army,that i wanted to quit watching cause there is enough war in the real world. cause its for that depiction of conflicts that there is no right or wrong neither before nor after and how complicated these conlficts are that this series is so good. i though that like a dues ex machina yuji would make everything back right hwhen he asked for hirai torch from shana but than they made goood turn that he justed wanted to make everything as right as possbile and that was a part of doing so, but it would mean that some people would forget shana.

well this goes on to the last topic, yuji and shana, i actually cant understand why yuji never said a word to her, about what was going on. he wanted to save her, his city and the world, okay but why has he to hurt her so much with his way of behaving like this? and why was it impossible for the two to be together as long as she was a flame haze, sure she has atask to do but sice i got quite strong he wasnt in the way i could have been along side her. I understand the meaning of punishing oneself for the action he took and the death and misery he forced but he knew i would end the war ocne and for all does this make it acceptable to kill that many, absolutly yes and absolutly no at the same time, and i can totally understand that. But the flame of heavens and the strongest flame haze would be a good way to guide the flame hazes in the new world cause there would be still three faction with much old hatred the denizens no longer consuming humans but still could kill them on purpose or accendtally if they do anything like the seeker experimentes now with enough power of existence, the denizins against the flame haze, the flame haze against the ddenizins, cause 1300 which is alot and most except for shana and the old guy with the tuning stick and few other have not endless hatred for the denizens, and the flame hazes most of them have not that much love for humans, cause of their job they have been out of society for hundreds of years, they dont have much love for humans most, just use the reason to rpotect humans and the balance for their revenge, so most dead humans are just neglectable collateral damage, so why on earth would he put shana wish d be with him, her good purpose as a flame haze and flame of heavens good purpose over his selfhatred to punish himself? i cant seem to follow why he would to that?
 
Feb 26, 2017 8:00 PM
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Well yeah, it was a pointless fight. Yuji had good points, he destroyed the Flame Haze army motivation and that should be it. They couldn't really find a real reasoning for anything that happened after that

Not sure why did Flame Hazes went to Xanadu. Not sure AT ALL. Makes no sense, there will be no peace

But what drives me mad is the fight at episode 24, just to kill of sydonay. Absouletely 0% reason. Shame, shame...

Still enjoyed the series, the season started good for me, had some great moments. But yeah as someone said above, they tried to be too epic for their own good, also they introduced so many characters that it was hard to give a fuck. The ones I got more attached were the bad guys, that snake dragon that was their strategist, Sydonay and Hekate...

They should've done school life and drama with 3 kissing episodes in the end and that would be great for me
 
Mar 16, 2017 5:58 AM

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The real villain was whoever created this terribly written mess of trash.
 
May 31, 2017 9:45 AM

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Well, first of all war is war. It's basically two sides who are trying to impose their beliefs and interests one on each other.

Secondly, there's no universal good guy or universal bad guy. Some Flame Hazes are good, some are bad. Some Tomogara are harmless (Lamies), some are harmful. You cannot blame anyone, not even the Tomogara kind, it's like blaming the wolf for eating the lamb. Is the wolf the bad guy? No, it's all just trophic chain.

Snake wanted to create a Paradise which meant free PoE for everyone, meaning a copy of the same world only that this new one has free stuff. Still, there are a few things implied here.

First of all, that didn't mean Tomogara wouldn't eat humans anymore, even with overflowing PoE. Some of them might still do that for fun, some out of grudges. That's the main reason some Flame Hazes agreed to its creation but wanted this rule, that Tomogara should be forbidden from eating humans. That's even why Yuji and Shana went to live together in Xanadu, to teach Tomogara how to coexist with humans (as far as I know, there are still evil Tomogara and some even go for a kill or attacks them).

Secondly, Flame Hazes had their own reason. What would happen if an enemy of a nation tells it: 'You know, we have this plan of ours, it implies a MASSIVE change of the world so you should just stay out and not have say.'? It was a risky move and the plan could go all wrong, not to mention that they predicted that if they didn't interfere, I quote:

StormSky92 said:

Flame Haze - stop them from creating their paradise, because they believed that the Tomogara would continue to devour the human souls in the new world, which would eventually leak into the human world (somehow) and screw up the balance. Not for thousands of years, but it would eventually happen.


But is war all about talking peacefully into making a compromise? Fuck no
It's like: Imma screw you 'til you do as I say. From both sides.

And finally, yes, there were plenty of Flame Hazes who had selfish reasons too, like, they spent their lives as F.H. for revenge & stuff, and now they are out of reasons to live. See when Yuji held his grand speech in front of them.

But as they say, all's well that ends well.
The mindfucker.
 
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