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Poll: Israel or Palestine?


Jan 7, 2013 5:27 PM

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JennyEsquire said:
Bro, you shouldn't have admitted to that. These people won't hesitate to use it against you.


You're assuming that I care. Like I said initially - I am clearly not going to change anyone's opinion here, nor am I going to waste time trying to dissect arguments on a topic this complex on a message board.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:31 PM

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neontaster said:
Shuhan said:
that sounds like a yes to me.


The answer is actually yes and no, if you're THAT curious. Yes, my "official" religion is Judaism, but for the purposes of this discussion the answer would be no because I am non-practicing (closer to atheism than Judaism) and my arguments in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are entirely political and deal with the past 150 years of history. I think "this is God's promised land for the Jews" is not an argument and I don't use arguments that are based off of the religion. So therefore my religion is irrelevant, which is also why I didn't mention it until you insisted, for whatever reason.


I insisted on it because it was obvious that you were biased. I would like to see some of your "political reasoning".

JennyEsquire said:
Shuhan said:

Free from western interference. Thats what all middle eastern countries should strive for.


Western interference =/= true freedom.

Western interference helped destabilize a facist regime give freedom to the Bosnian people. But I guess you wouldn't know anything about that.


Western interference also helped Osama Bin Laden rise to power.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:38 PM

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Shuhan said:
I insisted on it because it was obvious that you were biased. I would like to see some of your "political reasoning".


Thanks, Mr. impartiality.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:38 PM

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Shuhan said:

Western interference also helped Osama Bin Laden rise to power.

I know that, but I didn't say that it was always a good thing, like the way you equated western interference with less freedom for the people. All I did was give an example to show how you were wrong.
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Jan 7, 2013 5:39 PM

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katsucats said:
No, I am confused because you compared ethnic Jews to other religious groups, and then went on this off-topic rant when I responded to your assumption in kind.
Obviously introspection is not one of your strong suits, I merely stated that dogmatic practices are committed by people of all color/religion and that Jews should not be singled out. You retorted with a long winded response about all the bad things those evil Jews have done to separate themselves from the pack and ending with the phrase, which you see in my quote, "no other religion does this". The rest is documented so you can see it play out from there.

That being said, it is you who blurred the lines of talking about Jews as a religion and as a people. If you can't see that, I'll go ahead and just end this debate right here.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:43 PM

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JennyEsquire said:
Shuhan said:

Western interference also helped Osama Bin Laden rise to power.

I know that, but I didn't say that it was always a good thing, like the way you equated western interference with less freedom for the people. All I did was give an example to show how you were wrong.


HHAHAHAHA Ah, ask the people of Serbia if that was a good thing, considering how much of there population was wiped out in Genocide. Something the West cares not to speak on.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:48 PM

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neontaster said:
Again, I am not getting dragged into this, so I'll respond once and end it at that.

I contest your claim that Israel commits international crimes. At least to the extent that if Israel does, then so does anybody else. The U.S. killed several thousand Somalis in the space of a couple of days in 1993 (the Black Hawk Down incident) and they got a standing ovation from the UN. They kill tons of civilians in drone strikes now and I don't see anybody talking about it. Israel gets singled out in a very unfair way. Again, I could break this down for you on a case-by-case basis, but you already have an opinion on this and I'm not going to change it. I'm just telling you where I'm coming from.

Contest it all you want, but it's still a fact. Illegal settlements in Palestinian territories counts as commiting international crimes; they're a violation of the Geneva Conventions and have been deemed "illegal" by the UN. Also, pointing the finger at another country's wrong doings isn't making point, either. If the US is killing civilians, that makes it ok for Israel to?

And I don't know where you've been, but the world outside the US hasn't stopped talking (and denouncing) the drone strikes. True, most Americans are ignorant to the bugsplats, how often they're used and the destruction and deaths they cause, but the mass media doesn't want them to know either.

Israelis and Jews across the globe may be getting singled out unfairly in light of recent media attention, but the State of Israel is getting the attention it deserves for the horrendous state of the State. Just like more people need to know about the US war crimes, more people also need to know about the sick crimes that are committed on Palestinians (and Africans too) by the Israelis.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:56 PM

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Again, I'm staying out of this. I respectfully disagree with what you say here, and not because I'm blind or ignorant of the facts. I know all about article 49(6) of the Geneva convention, and I contest that it applies here, and so do several international law experts. It's not an open and shut case.

Whatever, all I'm saying is that I harbor no ill will to anyone here, but I really would rather not debate this topic on this message board. I'd rather just shoot the shit about anime and not get into political fights. Seems counterproductive.
 
Jan 7, 2013 5:57 PM

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Defiance said:
katsucats said:
No, I am confused because you compared ethnic Jews to other religious groups, and then went on this off-topic rant when I responded to your assumption in kind.
Obviously introspection is not one of your strong suits, I merely stated that dogmatic practices are committed by people of all color/religion and that Jews should not be singled out.
You didn't say color, you said religion. You brought religion into a discussion about politics, and I took your bait; so if anything, it was my mistake, but your dishonesty.

Defiance said:
You retorted with a long winded response about all the bad things those evil Jews have done to separate themselves from the pack and ending with the phrase, which you see in my quote, "no other religion does this". The rest is documented so you can see it play out from there.
Yes I did, because you were the one that compared Jews in a political context to "dogmatic practices that are committed by other religions".

Defiance said:
That being said, it is you who blurred the lines of talking about Jews as a religion and as a people. If you can't see that, I'll go ahead and just end this debate right here.
End it if you're going to lie about it to save face.
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Jan 7, 2013 6:00 PM

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JennyEsquire said:
katsucats said:
There are no victories when billions of dollars are going to a racist populace (more than 40% of Israel are right-wing) and hundreds of people are dying as a result.
Because right wing equals racist? The term ''Right-wing'' can be quite ambiguous
I guess not, just like how not all right-wing Christians are anti-gay... I've never seen as many people call threats to a US politician until I stepped into the Jerusalem Post comment board (and I've had plenty of arguments with Muslim fanatics).
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Jan 7, 2013 6:14 PM

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katsucats said:
You didn't say color, you said religion.
Actually I did, I specifically said, and I mean word for word, "dogmatic practices by people of all color/religion".

Now you are flat out lying about what I've said. I don't know if it's because you are simply blinded by trying to prove your own point or are intentionally doing it because Tachii deleted the proof of me saying it due to that flame war, but this is unacceptable. I might poke my head back into this discussion with you when you are ready to act like an adult, but until then I'm done with you.
 
Jan 7, 2013 7:13 PM

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Defiance said:
katsucats said:
You didn't say color, you said religion.
Actually I did, I specifically said, and I mean word for word, "dogmatic practices by people of all color/religion".

Now you are flat out lying about what I've said. I don't know if it's because you are simply blinded by trying to prove your own point or are intentionally doing it because Tachii deleted the proof of me saying it due to that flame war, but this is unacceptable. I might poke my head back into this discussion with you when you are ready to act like an adult, but until then I'm done with you.
Taking advantage of the situation when a mod removes a post, huh? If I'd "act like an adult", I would just ignore your petty lies because we both know what really happened. You laid out a trap and I fell for it -- end of story. Gloat about it, I'll let you have your 15 minute of fame.
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Jan 7, 2013 7:15 PM

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moose1 said:
25 people want to die in a suicide bombing

really, there's no reason for the U.S. to support anyone but Israel. We need someone to keep the middle east in check, I wonder if all these Palestine supporters know most Palestinians would have us all killed if they had the chance.
Really, most Palestinians would have? How many do you personally know?
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Jan 7, 2013 7:52 PM

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moose1 said:
You can't deny that muslim countries would wipe us out if they had the chance.
Yes I can.

moose1 said:
We have more in common with Israel, politically and culturally, than we do with muslim countries.
Possibly.

moose1 said:
And as the only foothold the west has in the region, it's in our best interest to support them.
If we dumped billions of dollars into any other country annually and give them unconditional support, they would be a foothold too.

moose1 said:
Without USA/Europe backing them up the surrounding muslim countries would wipe them off the map in days.
Aside from possibly Iran (and not because of nuclear capacity), no country in the Middle East has the capacity to touch a stray hair from Israel's underbelly. You're taking something Admadinejad (who has no real power in his own country) said and acting like every country will immediately declare war as soon as we pull out.
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Jan 7, 2013 8:24 PM

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neontaster said:
katsucats said:
Then why are you in a political thread getting your feet wet but claiming to refuse to go into the water?


Popped in to see what was up and got mad at the post. Why am I refusing? Two reasons:

1) I spend A LOT of time discussing this topic already elsewhere (hell, I work in Middle East research, so it's also kinda my job)

2) Doing it here is CLEARLY a losing battle for me. I get it. There is something romantic about supporting the underdog and looking at the Western, more powerful country as the bad guy. I just think in this case it is highly misguided. Why you would want to support a bunch of people who danced on their roofs after 9/11? Who give the death penalty to homosexuals or those who sell land to Jews? Who mercilessly mistreat women and deny them of basic human rights? Who horrifically murder each other like Hamas did to Fatah when they took over the Gaza Strip? Personally, I don't understand it, but I'm pretty sure I am in the minority on this message board, and hence it feels like a Sisyphean Task and I'd rather not bother, honestly. It's too tiring.

That's basically it. That and I'd rather not ruin the good image I have of many people around here by hearing their opinions on this topic.
I love how you're generalizing in your 2nd point, yes that's the definition of Islam you have, no that's not how people are in the region. Islam is reshaping itself in the region and people there have a different meaning of the Islam you guys talk about. Did you ever go to the countries around Israel and tried to see the situation in there? So let's start by your post a bit by bit:
Why you would want to support a bunch of people who danced on their roofs after 9/11?
Yes they did that. Ever wondered why? People were happy because the US citizens were feeling the pain the US is giving them middle-eastern with their interfering in the region. And that's 10 years ago, are people sad that Bin Laden died right now? Few are those who gave a fuck, and a lot were actually happy he died. The region is evolving right there and the Islamic values and basics are changing slowly, to better ones, especially in the countries around Israel. Also especially that people are introduced more widely to the internet and facebook with all those problems that are happening there.
Who give the death penalty to homosexuals?
I'm from the region and I've never heard of a homosexual was given a death penalty.
Who mercilessly mistreat women and deny them of basic human rights?
Again, ever tried going to the countries around Israel? Women in Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, all have their basic rights. Women also have all of their rights in most of the Arabic countries.
Who horrifically murder each other like Hamas did to Fatah when they took over the Gaza Strip?
They're just retarded and a lot of the people in the region think the same.

Stop seeing all the Arabic countries the same as KSA and Iran and some of other middle-eastern countries, because they're not. There might be some remnants but the region there is slowly evolving and a lot of Islamic basics are changing for better bit by bit.

I don't want you to get involved in the thread more, but just get your facts right, I'm from the region, from Syria to be more precise. No one in my country likes the BS the Saudian government is doing, nor anyone likes the BS Iran is doing. The arabic media are trying to stand for the rights of women in KSA and in the countries that still have no women rights, they're trying to make people more open-minded, they're trying to make people not side with Iran, and they're doing a great job. So how about giving them a chance to develop themselves more to make them get rid of the old and replace it with new other than just hating them more and more?

Edit: Added some things to the long paragraphs.
Modified by Candor, Jan 7, 2013 9:05 PM
 
Jan 7, 2013 8:49 PM

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katsucats said:
Aside from possibly Iran (and not because of nuclear capacity), no country in the Middle East has the capacity to touch a stray hair from Israel's underbelly. You're taking something Admadinejad (who has no real power in his own country) said and acting like every country will immediately declare war as soon as we pull out.


Israel's military gets really overrated nowadays. Good air force. So-so infantry and abysmal navy.
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Jan 7, 2013 9:11 PM

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Candor said:


I appreciate you not trying to drag me back into this. I'll just say one thing - In my opinion, message board posts are not a good way to argue this topic (which is part of the reason I don't wanna do it), and most of the stuff you accuse me of here is not stuff that I actually think. Just for the record.
 
Jan 7, 2013 9:33 PM

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dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Aside from possibly Iran (and not because of nuclear capacity), no country in the Middle East has the capacity to touch a stray hair from Israel's underbelly. You're taking something Admadinejad (who has no real power in his own country) said and acting like every country will immediately declare war as soon as we pull out.


Israel's military gets really overrated nowadays. Good air force. So-so infantry and abysmal navy.

That they have nuclear weaponry is enough to deter attacks from other nations though.
 
Jan 7, 2013 9:34 PM

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neontaster said:
Candor said:


I appreciate you not trying to drag me back into this. I'll just say one thing - In my opinion, message board posts are not a good way to argue this topic (which is part of the reason I don't wanna do it), and most of the stuff you accuse me of here is not stuff that I actually think. Just for the record.
I honestly don't want to get into this argument myself, I don't like getting into these stuff tbh, but I also don't like people assuming such things about where I'm from and thinking the old-fashioned way about the middle-east and Muslims just because they saw some retarded Muslims or Arabs doing some retarded things, whether on TV or irl, or for some other reason related to that.

Anyway, I apologize if my post felt rude or something. And, have a good day.
Modified by Candor, Jan 7, 2013 9:47 PM
 
Jan 7, 2013 9:40 PM

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uzu-dragons said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Aside from possibly Iran (and not because of nuclear capacity), no country in the Middle East has the capacity to touch a stray hair from Israel's underbelly. You're taking something Admadinejad (who has no real power in his own country) said and acting like every country will immediately declare war as soon as we pull out.


Israel's military gets really overrated nowadays. Good air force. So-so infantry and abysmal navy.

That they have nuclear weaponry is enough to deter attacks from other nations though.

As a deterrence. But their ability for conventional warfare isn't as impressive as a lot of people are harping.
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Jan 7, 2013 9:42 PM

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dankickyou said:
uzu-dragons said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Aside from possibly Iran (and not because of nuclear capacity), no country in the Middle East has the capacity to touch a stray hair from Israel's underbelly. You're taking something Admadinejad (who has no real power in his own country) said and acting like every country will immediately declare war as soon as we pull out.

Israel's military gets really overrated nowadays. Good air force. So-so infantry and abysmal navy.

That they have nuclear weaponry is enough to deter attacks from other nations though.

As a deterrence. But their ability for conventional warfare isn't as impressive as a lot of people are harping.
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
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Jan 7, 2013 9:59 PM

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katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
uzu-dragons said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Aside from possibly Iran (and not because of nuclear capacity), no country in the Middle East has the capacity to touch a stray hair from Israel's underbelly. You're taking something Admadinejad (who has no real power in his own country) said and acting like every country will immediately declare war as soon as we pull out.

Israel's military gets really overrated nowadays. Good air force. So-so infantry and abysmal navy.

That they have nuclear weaponry is enough to deter attacks from other nations though.

As a deterrence. But their ability for conventional warfare isn't as impressive as a lot of people are harping.
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.


None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:05 PM

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dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:09 PM

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katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.


Israel's military machine may not be able to support itself without US money. Military logistics is crazy expensive.
The Art of Eight
 
Jan 7, 2013 10:27 PM

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dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.

Israel's military machine may not be able to support itself without US money. Military logistics is crazy expensive.
Not in the long-term, which is why withdrawing US money will give Israel an impetus or urgency towards peace.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:37 PM

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katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.

Israel's military machine may not be able to support itself without US money. Military logistics is crazy expensive.
Not in the long-term, which is why withdrawing US money will give Israel an impetus or urgency towards peace.

Maybe. Wait, like that will ever happen.



^Only peace there is a fiery one.
The Art of Eight
 
Jan 7, 2013 10:39 PM

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dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.

Israel's military machine may not be able to support itself without US money. Military logistics is crazy expensive.
Not in the long-term, which is why withdrawing US money will give Israel an impetus or urgency towards peace.
Maybe. Wait, like that will ever happen.

^Only peace there is a fiery one.
Then that would be their own fault, and they can self-destruct without billions of US dollars going down the drain.
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Jan 7, 2013 10:52 PM

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katsucats said:
Then that would be their own fault, and they can self-destruct without billions of US dollars going down the drain.

This may sound mean but maybe one day they will do us a favor and blow that area of the map. then hopefully an actual working non-retarded country can actually rise from the ashes.


moose1 said:
The only country with nuclear bombs in the Middle East is Israel.

Pakistan has them, not really middle-east I know, but same shit.

Pakistan and India are so tsundere for each other.
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Jan 8, 2013 4:17 AM

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Well the US supplies Israel with something like 3.2 billion annually for military hardware and supply... The US sets them up for a doctrine it ultimately push's. Hence terrorist attacks to the US because it supports that kind of thing in the middle east. The US answer is sending more military power into the middle east...

my sympathy goes to the Palestinians.
 
Jan 8, 2013 5:01 AM
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katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.

Israel's military machine may not be able to support itself without US money. Military logistics is crazy expensive.
Not in the long-term, which is why withdrawing US money will give Israel an impetus or urgency towards peace.

witch will never happen or reasons i stated before
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Jan 8, 2013 5:48 AM

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katsucats said:
dankickyou said:
katsucats said:
Yeah but what are you comparing it to? They have already shown their ability to completely level Lebanon in under 2 months.
None. Just mentioning that Israel's military gets overrated a lot. Their industrial and manpower base is pretty weak too and the country is geographically terrible against any enemy with a good navy. Also, beating Lebanon in two months isn't terribly impressive for a modern military.A modern combined arms assault by their neighbors can actually shake up Israel bad without big old USA aroundl.
It's hard to say if something is overrated without a comparison, but in this context I stand by my original statement that there is no near-term existential threat to Israel, even if we spontaneously pulled out of the area and stopped funding anyone. Turkey and Egypt are both comparatively moderate. Israel has no enemies around that could strike it with a navy.


I'm pretty sure Iran would be a threat to Israel if the US pulled out and the Israelis carried on with the conflict with the Palestinians. Though I doubt Iran would be willing to risk it because the US would probably intervene. US intervening could lead to China and Russia also intervening.... it could all lead to a new WW. But Israel is also trying to get the US to open war on Iran though Obama is unwilling to do that.
 
Jan 12, 2013 8:31 PM

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Gaza, the largest concentration camp in the history of mankind.
 
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