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Poll: Girls und Panzer Episode 4 Discussion


Nov 4, 2012 2:28 PM
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Takuan_Soho said:
Aversa said:

So the question is is this Anime about tanks in general or tanks that where used during the war?


No, its about Girls and Panzers :-)

Definitely the first. They are not trying to recreate history. I don't know how deep they are going to get into the history of this world, but this is an alternative universe, similar, but different, so our history doesn't necessarily apply.

Smart idea. It easily allows them to avoid the moral question of the focus on Nazi tanks :-)
The German tanks used during the war greatly influenced tank design till this day if your talking about the history of tanks you can't leave out the German models.
As far as the moral aspects go tanks are weapons and the primary function of a weapon is to harm people.
 
Nov 4, 2012 4:05 PM
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Aversa said:

As far as the moral aspects go tanks are weapons and the primary function of a weapon is to harm people.


That would only be true if you lived in a world where no one wanted to harm you. People don't need weapons to harm people, watch Chimps and Apes (hell, for that matter any playground) to see the reality of this principle.

Weapons have overturned this natural rule. It is what allows the weak to defeat the strong. Guns meant that the unskilled could defeat the skilled (which is why it was called an "equalizer", in the words of a dying thug). The primary function is to deter violence, not cause it.

This is why murder rates decrease as weapon ability increases (murder rates in primitive societies are astronomical - Rousseau's Noble Savage was a myth). It makes most people think twice before trying to harm their opponent.
 
Nov 4, 2012 4:12 PM
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Takuan_Soho said:
Weapons have overturned this natural rule. It is what allows the weak to defeat the strong. Guns meant that the unskilled could defeat the skilled (which is why it was called an "equalizer", in the words of a dying thug).

God created men. Colt '45 made them equal.

Takuan_Soho said:
This is why murder rates decrease as weapon ability increases (murder rates in primitive societies are astronomical - Rousseau's Noble Savage was a myth). It makes most people think twice before trying to harm their opponent.
If you break into my house, never mind my dog; beware of owner with gun.

(ducks and runs for cover before the flaming starts)
 
Nov 4, 2012 9:52 PM

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the maneuvers and such,... the street tank battle is out off my mind LOL.. just awesome

the fish dance is another fan service for us guys LOL

so isuzu hana has been dumped by her own mother? well, that's a little tragic

reizei is awake at night and sleepy in the morning LOL. can't agree more

can't wait for next episode
 
Nov 4, 2012 10:05 PM

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Aversa said:
So the question is is this Anime about tanks in general or tanks that where used during the war?
The official rules of Senshado state that only tanks that had design completed before Aug 15 1945 can be used. But as you have already seen, it does not mean more modern tanks cannot make an appearance.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 4, 2012 10:12 PM

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Reizei must be a vampire for her to be sleepy in the mornings. lol
 
Nov 5, 2012 12:19 AM
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symbv said:
Aversa said:
So the question is is this Anime about tanks in general or tanks that where used during the war?
The official rules of Senshado state that only tanks that had design completed before Aug 15 1945 can be used. But as you have already seen, it does not mean more modern tanks cannot make an appearance.


We already have the Mitsubishi Type 10 appear, so modern tanks making cameos aren't out of the question. It's unlikely we'll see modern tanks used in actual Senshado matches though.

On an entirely different matter, this page containing a tweet from the anime production team supposedly mentions that the mistake about the StuG III participating in the Winter War was intentional on their part. Also appears that they want to play up the aspect of them being "just high school girls" a bit more by adding that mistake in.
 
Nov 5, 2012 12:47 AM

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SayuriUliana said:
On an entirely different matter, this page containing a tweet from the anime production team supposedly mentions that the mistake about the StuG III participating in the Winter War was intentional on their part. Also appears that they want to play up the aspect of them being "just high school girls" a bit more by adding that mistake in.
Those twitters by the anime production team are interesting to read. Just on the same day(Oct 22) where they tweeted about the StGIII in Winter War (think the staff must be pleased that fans actually know their history), the following information is also disclosed:

- The appearance of Mitsubishi Type 10 is due to the insistence of Director Mizushima.

- The transporter that brought the Type 10 is a 120% scaled-up version of C-2 because without scale-up it would not be able to carry Type 10.

- The way that a tank is dropped from a transporter with a parachute attached is called "Low-Altitude Parachute Extraction System"

- The カレー (curry) that was mentioned when the girls talked about the carrier making various stops at different ports has the same pronunciation in Japanese as Calais, so it is intended also as a reference to the port of Calais (which is known as the place where the Germans thought the Allies would most likely land on the Europe continent)

- The drop of magazine by Miho when her friends came to pay a visit to her room was because of her tenseness as she never had guests in her room

- The orange patch on the shoulder of the SDF officer indicates she belongs to the armored group.

- that the German tank ace Otto Carius once said that a tank commander should get out and observe things from outside whenever possible.
Modified by symbv, Nov 5, 2012 2:48 AM
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 3:35 AM

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Nice info there. Thank you for translating, symbv.

I figure now why Mhio goes outside despite there's a battlefield going on.
Modified by Magito, Nov 5, 2012 3:44 AM
 
Nov 5, 2012 4:34 AM
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The preview pics for episode 5 are out on the official site, with some interesting stuff going on:

 
Nov 5, 2012 5:17 AM

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Thank you SayuriUliana for your post #160. Here is the link to the official website which will later have the full summary of Episode 5: (Warning: Spoilers!) For now it is just a bunch of still photos from the episode. http://girls-und-panzer.jp/story_05.html

第5話 Episode 5 「強豪・シャーマン軍団です!」 "An Experienced Sherman Army Corps!"

NOTE: THIS NEXT PART WAS ORIGINALLY MEANT AS A SILLY JOKE. SORRY, NOW I REALIZE IT WAS IN BAD TASTE TO SOME.
I might as well tell you what happens in today's episode, at least, this is what Mikuru Asahina told me, even though her ability to read German is poor. They get completely wiped out by the Shermans. Of course, none of the girls are hurt. However, they all suffer from battle fatique and join the incense club instead. After that, for the remaining seven episodes of the series, it is nothing but dream episodes where they all just keep re-living the disastrous battle with the Shermans, with only very minor variations each time. So it is really true-to-life.
Modified by okanagan, Nov 5, 2012 7:05 AM
 
Nov 5, 2012 5:43 AM
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The GuP manga (which is a parallel story featuring Yukari's POV) shows us a most unexpected tank:

The Char B1!
 
Nov 5, 2012 5:49 AM

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SayuriUliana said:
The GuP manga (which is a parallel story featuring Yukari's POV) shows us a most unexpected tank:

The Char B1!


I've been reading the manga ever since the first episode 1 came out. ch5 is the latest scanlated
 
Nov 5, 2012 5:51 AM

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SayuriUliana said:
The GuP manga (which is a parallel story featuring Yukari's POV) shows us a most unexpected tank:
The Char B1!
This is not scanlated! Is there a source of the manga with the Japanese dialogue unaltered? Would prefer to read a manga in its original Japanese.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 5:54 AM

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Somebody please volunteer to translate this for us! All of the parts of this detailed cutaway diagram of the Char B1 tank are labeled in French. Thanks to SayuriUliana for linking to the manga page with the Char B1 in post #164.

http://www.drivehq.com/file/df.aspx/publish/VVJACK/wwwhome/Gembloux/b1b_ecorche.jpeg
Modified by okanagan, Nov 5, 2012 6:53 AM
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:02 AM

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symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.

That being said WATCH OUT FOR SHERMANS! They are the fastest but had a nickname. LIGHTER! Cause their gas made them most flammable despite being the fastest.

Man this sucks shit, I wanted to write more.

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Nov 5, 2012 6:04 AM

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I'm new to this show, I watched all 4 episodes in a row and this is surprisingly good.
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:05 AM

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okanagan said:

第5話 Episode 5 「強豪・シャーマン軍団です!」 "An Experienced Sherman Army Corps!"

I might as well tell you what happens in today's episode, at least, this is what Mikuru Asahina told me, even though her ability to read German is poor. They get completely wiped out by the Shermans. Of course, none of the girls are hurt. However, they all suffer from battle fatique and join the incense club instead. After that, for the remaining seven episodes of the series, it is nothing but dream episodes where they all just keep re-living the disastrous battle with the Shermans, with only very minor variations each time. So it is really true-to-life.

That doesn't make any sense. You're trolling, right?
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:10 AM

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In reply to: SetsukoHara Post #168
That doesn't make any sense. You're trolling, right?


Does "trolling" mean "being silly" ??? If so, then yes...
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:13 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!
Even in its rear the armor is that thick? I would think that its armor is thicker in the turret and the front, but the rear should have thinner armor, right?


SetsukoHara said:
okanagan said:

第5話 Episode 5 「強豪・シャーマン軍団です!」 "An Experienced Sherman Army Corps!"

I might as well tell you what happens in today's episode, at least, this is what Mikuru Asahina told me, even though her ability to read German is poor. They get completely wiped out by the Shermans. Of course, none of the girls are hurt. However, they all suffer from battle fatique and join the incense club instead. After that, for the remaining seven episodes of the series, it is nothing but dream episodes where they all just keep re-living the disastrous battle with the Shermans, with only very minor variations each time. So it is really true-to-life.

That doesn't make any sense. You're trolling, right?
okanagan, don't spread falsehood here please.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:18 AM

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symbv said:
okanagana, don't spread falsehood here please.


Just looked up "trolling" in Urban Dictionary.

Won't do it again.

Sorry.
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:25 AM

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^ Actually if you had included a final note (perhaps put it in Spoiler tag) that it is a joke, no one would then think you are trolling. That said, even if it is stated as a joke, it is some cruel humor which not everybody may like.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:39 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.

That being said WATCH OUT FOR SHERMANS! They are the fastest but had a nickname. LIGHTER! Cause their gas made them most flammable despite being the fastest.

Man this sucks shit, I wanted to write more.


I've watch the top ten greatest tanks on youtube, and I must say, that fatal flaw is freaking scary! Once the shermans get hit the crew needs to bail out fast or they'll get barbecue'd! One advantage of the Shermans is the ease of manufacture. It was so easy to make they made a staggering 48,000 of them in just three years. What the shermans lack in firepower and armor made it up through sheer numbers. I think that's why we see a huge number of them at the end of episode 4 and team Oorai will battle ten of them from the Saunders according to the ep5 preview.
 
Nov 5, 2012 6:53 AM

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symbv said:
Yumekichi11 said:
The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!
Even in its rear the armor is that thick? I would think that its armor is thicker in the turret and the front, but the rear should have thinner armor, right?
The Churchilll had few weak spots in its armor in general so it was all round hard to penetrate it. You are talking about like a single spot. Not obvious and really hard. Only Tigers had the special tools to aim the best for that.
Magito said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.

That being said WATCH OUT FOR SHERMANS! They are the fastest but had a nickname. LIGHTER! Cause their gas made them most flammable despite being the fastest.

Man this sucks shit, I wanted to write more.


I've watch the top ten greatest tanks on youtube, and I must say, that fatal flaw is freaking scary! Once the shermans get hit the crew needs to bail out fast or they'll get barbecue'd! One advantage of the Shermans is the ease of manufacture. It was so easy to make they made a staggering 48,000 of them in just three years. What the shermans lack in firepower and armor made it up through sheer numbers. I think that's why we see a huge number of them at the end of episode 4 and team Oorai will battle ten of them from the Saunders according to the ep5 preview.
TOTALLY EXACTO MUNDO DUDE! Yup that was the problem of the Shermans but the advantage was also in its ease of making them that's true too. It could go 45km/h while max of Germans even was 35km/h. See a good 10km/h made a difference.

Eventually they got them with 105mm to blast the King Tigers and Tigers2.

Best one was the flamethrower one. I would ROFL if they used in this series but it would not be cool to see some of the girls burn out. :/

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Nov 5, 2012 7:04 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
Yumekichi11 said:
The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!
Even in its rear the armor is that thick? I would think that its armor is thicker in the turret and the front, but the rear should have thinner armor, right?
The Churchilll had few weak spots in its armor in general so it was all round hard to penetrate it. You are talking about like a single spot. Not obvious and really hard. Only Tigers had the special tools to aim the best for that.
But Churchill did not always have an armor that only Tigers could penetrate, right? The earlier models from 1941 IIRC did not have such formidable armor.

BTW, what is the model of Churchill used by St.Gloriana in the anime?
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 7:20 AM

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symbv said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
Yumekichi11 said:
The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!
Even in its rear the armor is that thick? I would think that its armor is thicker in the turret and the front, but the rear should have thinner armor, right?
The Churchilll had few weak spots in its armor in general so it was all round hard to penetrate it. You are talking about like a single spot. Not obvious and really hard. Only Tigers had the special tools to aim the best for that.
But Churchill did not always have an armor that only Tigers could penetrate, right? The earlier models from 1941 IIRC did not have such formidable armor.

BTW, what is the model of Churchill used by St.Gloriana in the anime?
The last one, Churchill VII which had the thickest armor.

First ones of course always had more flaws than later models.

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Nov 5, 2012 7:32 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
BTW, what is the model of Churchill used by St.Gloriana in the anime?
The last one, Churchill VII which had the thickest armor.
The last one? I thought there is a VIII too? But VII and VIII should have similar armor. Also found that the hull rear armor of VII are 25 to 50mm. Perhaps it is penetrable there?
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 7:48 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
Yumekichi11 said:
The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!
Even in its rear the armor is that thick? I would think that its armor is thicker in the turret and the front, but the rear should have thinner armor, right?
The Churchilll had few weak spots in its armor in general so it was all round hard to penetrate it. You are talking about like a single spot. Not obvious and really hard. Only Tigers had the special tools to aim the best for that.
Magito said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.

That being said WATCH OUT FOR SHERMANS! They are the fastest but had a nickname. LIGHTER! Cause their gas made them most flammable despite being the fastest.

Man this sucks shit, I wanted to write more.


I've watch the top ten greatest tanks on youtube, and I must say, that fatal flaw is freaking scary! Once the shermans get hit the crew needs to bail out fast or they'll get barbecue'd! One advantage of the Shermans is the ease of manufacture. It was so easy to make they made a staggering 48,000 of them in just three years. What the shermans lack in firepower and armor made it up through sheer numbers. I think that's why we see a huge number of them at the end of episode 4 and team Oorai will battle ten of them from the Saunders according to the ep5 preview.
TOTALLY EXACTO MUNDO DUDE! Yup that was the problem of the Shermans but the advantage was also in its ease of making them that's true too. It could go 45km/h while max of Germans even was 35km/h. See a good 10km/h made a difference.

Eventually they got them with 105mm to blast the King Tigers and Tigers2.

Best one was the flamethrower one. I would ROFL if they used in this series but it would not be cool to see some of the girls burn out. :/


The another advantage of the Shermans is speed and mobility. Against the tiger and panther during WWII, it's the Sherman's worst knightmare. For a sherman to take out a tiger normally, it needs to hit the rear, but it'll take 5 or more Shermans before to destroy one. Being inside a sherman is like a deathtrap and that your on a suicide mission. I saw a wwII where a panther directly hit a sherman, only the gunner and tank commander with blown off left leg below the knee survived. It was just...horrible. The Russian T-34 was even worse, it had next to zero crew survivability where if the ammo crate gets hit, the shells will blow up. The Shermand and T-34 are well known to be the biggest engineering fail in the 1940s.

I'm pretty sure they're not gonna use a flamethrower, because it's an anti infantry weapon to burn pillboxes or fortifications. Against the STUGIII, and the PzIV, one direct hit could take out a Sherman.
Modified by Magito, Nov 5, 2012 7:57 AM
 
Nov 5, 2012 8:24 AM

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Magito said:
The another advantage of the Shermans is speed and mobility. Against the tiger and panther during WWII, it's the Sherman's worst knightmare. For a sherman to take out a tiger normally, it needs to hit the rear, but it'll take 5 or more Shermans before to destroy one. Being inside a sherman is like a deathtrap and that your on a suicide mission. I saw a wwII where a panther directly hit a sherman, only the gunner and tank commander with blown off left leg below the knee survived. It was just...horrible. The Russian T-34 was even worse, it had next to zero crew survivability where if the ammo crate gets hit, the shells will blow up. The Shermand and T-34 are well known to be the biggest engineering fail in the 1940s.

I'm pretty sure they're not gonna use a flamethrower, because it's an anti infantry weapon to burn pillboxes or fortifications. Against the STUGIII, and the PzIV, one direct hit could take out a Sherman.
Worst part was that Shermans were much better choice than M3 - making it pink in series is serious improvement. If Soviets were calling something "collective grave for six people" it had to be unique.

And whait... what do you mean about T-34 being fail? Germans were really surprised when they've met them on field of battle. They had a lot of problems in dealing with them, heck more of them were damaged from various malfunctions than enemy fire. But that was common during WWII - Panthers or Tigers weren't exactly reliable.
Sure comfort of crew wasn't exactly a priority. But it had to be produced quickly, easilly and in great numbers and with this they succeded, as well as making it fit to rather difficult terrain/climate where war was taking place.
 
Nov 5, 2012 8:29 AM

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symbv said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
BTW, what is the model of Churchill used by St.Gloriana in the anime?
The last one, Churchill VII which had the thickest armor.
The last one? I thought there is a VIII too? But VII and VIII should have similar armor. Also found that the hull rear armor of VII are 25 to 50mm. Perhaps it is penetrable there?
Could be the general weakness but it was less thick before hence too easy to get to.
Dalek-baka said:
Magito said:
The another advantage of the Shermans is speed and mobility. Against the tiger and panther during WWII, it's the Sherman's worst knightmare. For a sherman to take out a tiger normally, it needs to hit the rear, but it'll take 5 or more Shermans before to destroy one. Being inside a sherman is like a deathtrap and that your on a suicide mission. I saw a wwII where a panther directly hit a sherman, only the gunner and tank commander with blown off left leg below the knee survived. It was just...horrible. The Russian T-34 was even worse, it had next to zero crew survivability where if the ammo crate gets hit, the shells will blow up. The Shermand and T-34 are well known to be the biggest engineering fail in the 1940s.

I'm pretty sure they're not gonna use a flamethrower, because it's an anti infantry weapon to burn pillboxes or fortifications. Against the STUGIII, and the PzIV, one direct hit could take out a Sherman.
Worst part was that Shermans were much better choice than M3 - making it pink in series is serious improvement. If Soviets were calling something "collective grave for six people" it had to be unique.

And whait... what do you mean about T-34 being fail? Germans were really surprised when they've met them on field of battle. They had a lot of problems in dealing with them, heck more of them were damaged from various malfunctions than enemy fire. But that was common during WWII - Panthers or Tigers weren't exactly reliable.
Sure comfort of crew wasn't exactly a priority. But it had to be produced quickly, easilly and in great numbers and with this they succeded, as well as making it fit to rather difficult terrain/climate where war was taking place.
One of the biggest wins of humanity with the T-34s is the satisfaction it gave to Russians in being fast but also to stomp out best soldiers by running over them. Best tank for that and hence why Germans feared them.

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Nov 5, 2012 8:56 AM

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T-34 outclassed the German tanks when it first came out, but it indeed had its own design flaws, and fuel catching fire when it got hit was a particular issue. Also the rushed production (particularly in the early years when there was less resource, less scale and more complicated manufacturing process) created many substandard products, which resulted in tanks breaking down on battlefield. But then the tank was efficient and effective and relatively cheap to make. Given the huge influence to tank design I would not call T-34 a fail. A win would be more appropriate.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:19 AM

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Dalek-baka said:
Magito said:
The another advantage of the Shermans is speed and mobility. Against the tiger and panther during WWII, it's the Sherman's worst knightmare. For a sherman to take out a tiger normally, it needs to hit the rear, but it'll take 5 or more Shermans before to destroy one. Being inside a sherman is like a deathtrap and that your on a suicide mission. I saw a wwII where a panther directly hit a sherman, only the gunner and tank commander with blown off left leg below the knee survived. It was just...horrible. The Russian T-34 was even worse, it had next to zero crew survivability where if the ammo crate gets hit, the shells will blow up. The Shermand and T-34 are well known to be the biggest engineering fail in the 1940s.

I'm pretty sure they're not gonna use a flamethrower, because it's an anti infantry weapon to burn pillboxes or fortifications. Against the STUGIII, and the PzIV, one direct hit could take out a Sherman.
Worst part was that Shermans were much better choice than M3 - making it pink in series is serious improvement. If Soviets were calling something "collective grave for six people" it had to be unique.

And whait... what do you mean about T-34 being fail? Germans were really surprised when they've met them on field of battle. They had a lot of problems in dealing with them, heck more of them were damaged from various malfunctions than enemy fire. But that was common during WWII - Panthers or Tigers weren't exactly reliable.


Well according to one comment it was failure. Oh well, screw him. Despite the innovative slope armored, it doesn't guarantee it will save them from harm. The T-34 suffers from unprotected ammo the same as the Shermans, but here the ammo would actually explode.

Dalek-baka said:

Sure comfort of crew wasn't exactly a priority. But it had to be produced quickly, easilly and in great numbers and with this they succeeded, as well as making it fit to rather difficult terrain/climate where war was taking place.


The ergonomics of a T-34, a vital part of crew survivability were so horrible that its just as criminal as the M4. The only real plus was their reproducibility. Once a German tank crew gets a bead, that tank is dead. It mostly won by sheer numbers against the Germans, same as the shermans.

 
Nov 5, 2012 9:20 AM

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symbv said:
T-34 outclassed the German tanks when it first came out, but it indeed had its own design flaws, and fuel catching fire when it got hit was a particular issue. Also the rushed production (particularly in the early years when there was less resource, less scale and more complicated manufacturing process) created many substandard products, which resulted in tanks breaking down on battlefield. But then the tank was efficient and effective and relatively cheap to make. Given the huge influence to tank design I would not call T-34 a fail. A win would be more appropriate.
First years of war had problem that they had to move all those factories and create places like Tankograd to build weapons. So no problem that construction had it's faults.
At least they fixed some of them and it didn't end up as other abominations like KV, T-35 or BT-7 (I would still love to see KV in series). Other were connected with well being of crew and that really wasn't priority for Soviets, it had to work.

But they were still more reliable than Tigers XD
after all during their first operation in 1942 many had malfunction and one was captured almost intact by the Soviets.
and then there was Kursk and fail of Panthers.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:21 AM
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Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.
Ermm... that is simply not true. It's so not true I don't even no where to start.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:27 AM

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symbv said:
A win would be more appropriate.


Yes, because they won the war. It was kind of deemed as an engineering failure because it easily breaks much like the Shermans, the ergonomics was horrible as I said to Dalek-baka.

TL;DR: Despite their flaws, the Russians won the war. So I'll just leave it like that. I have good respect for the T-34 and I'm looking forward to make an apearance in the series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:32 AM

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Cratex said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.
Ermm... that is simply not true. It's so not true I don't even no where to start.
Yeah it's true and you can start in by reading the testimonies from the people that wrote books about their encounter with the tanks. It's simply true and till it got realized it was quite a problem to kill Churchills that and their weak point.

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Nov 5, 2012 9:35 AM

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Magito said:
The ergonomics of a T-34, a vital part of crew survivability were so horrible that its just as criminal as the M4. The only real plus was their reproducibility. Once a German tank crew gets a bead, that tank is dead. It mostly won by sheer numbers against the Germans, same as the shermans.
Ergonomics is one of its bigger flaws, but I would still rank it higher than the M4 and not just because of its reproducibility. When T-34 first came out no German tanks at that time could destroy it beyond 500m but T-34 could knock out the German tanks (III or IV) from 1000m or beyond. T-34 definitely has the firepower, armor and field-crossing ability. Its main flaws are ergonomics, optics, radio communication and issue with catching fire. There are mechanical problems too but that would be due more to manufacturing problem instead of engineering flaws.
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:36 AM

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Magito said:
symbv said:
A win would be more appropriate.

Yes, because they won the war.
US won the war, but I would not say M4 is a win ;-)
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:37 AM
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M4 Sherman...

First, when the Sherman was introduced in 1942 it was actually better armored than any German tank (the Tiger was not introduced for a few more months yet) and it's gun was only slightly inferior to the long 75mm on the "new" Mk IV F. The problem was the Sherman's armor was never significantly upgraded and compared very poorly with the German Panthers and Tigers. (there was a very limited production run of M4A3E2 Shermans with VERY heavy armor, but only about 300 or so).

Now, gun wise, the original Shermans were equipped with a medium powered 75mm. In early 44 a more powerful 76mm gun was developed, though for doctrine and supply reasons it didn't get deployed to Europe in numbers until the fall of 44. Still, the 76mm wasn't able to penetrate the frontal armor of the Panther or tiger except at close range, though it could deal with the side armor at range.

the side armor of the Panther was actually fairly week. Even the weak 75mm could penetrate it at well over 500 yards.

Sherman's brewing up - studies found that the majority of fatal sherman fires occured because of poor ammo storage - a combination of design and crew tendency to store ready rounds in bad spots. In early 44 "wet storage" was introduced that considerably reduced the chance of a fire.

Note that ANY tank is subject to catastrophic fires/explosions if the right spots are hit.

I should note that the highly successful US 4th armored division was able to score considerable tactical victories against German panthers and tigers using only the M4/75mm shermans right to the end of 44 - skill counts for much.
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:43 AM
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Yumekichi11 said:
Cratex said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.
Ermm... that is simply not true. It's so not true I don't even no where to start.
Yeah it's true and you can start in by reading the testimonies from the people that wrote books about their encounter with the tanks. It's simply true and till it got realized it was quite a problem to kill Churchills that and their weak point.


Let's start by examining what you first said: " if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO!'"

NO German tank had a gun larger than 88mm. When you can get your facts straight on that, come back and talk.

(there was a tank destoryer with a 122mm gun, and a couple of assault guns with 105mm or larger, but the former was not a factor on the western front and the later were HE weapons)

" you can start in by reading the testimonies from the people that wrote books about their encounter with the tanks."

List your sources, please.

Off the top of my head, I can point to a book called Flame Thrower where the author talks about his service in British armor and served in a late war Churchill - German tigers and panthers were able to deal with the churchill, and even the Mk IV H was capable of taking it out, at close range
Modified by Cratex, Nov 5, 2012 9:59 AM
 
Nov 5, 2012 9:49 AM
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Mind you, I'm not saying it was easy - but at shorter ranges the 75mm armed Mk IV H, and at longer ranges the 88mm armored tiger and the 75mm armed panther, could deal with the Churchill.
 
Nov 5, 2012 10:07 AM

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Cratex said:
Note that ANY tank is subject to catastrophic fires/explosions if the right spots are hit.

I should note that the highly successful US 4th armored division was able to score considerable tactical victories against German panthers and tigers using only the M4/75mm shermans right to the end of 44 - skill counts for much.
Main positive side of Sherman was number it was produced in and easy to so.
Germans could have superior Panthers or Tigers but one side they had to stop Soviets and they were difficult to buit (not to mention lunacy in creating all those variants of tanks or prototypes).
So sending those 5 (that was the statistics?) Shermans to deal with one Tiger wasn't hard thing to do.
But than Western from wasn't place that determine design of German tanks - there is not so much reason to use there things like Konigstiger.

And about dealing with heavy tanks. I don't know if this was mentioned here but Soviets had one interesting way to destroy them. Instead of anti-tank ammo they were using HE.
One effect would be that crew inside the tank would be killed by pieces of metal flying around. Other was fact that due to limitations in quality of used materials turrets were breaking into pieces.
 
Nov 5, 2012 10:08 AM
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"Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well."

I have an Osprey Publishing book somewhere on the T34 that relates an interesting story. Not long after the Tiger II (king tiger) was introduced a single Soviet T34/85 - with the 85mm gun, which was about the same power as the 75mm on the Panther - ambushed and destroyed three (3!) German tiger II tanks.

I will admit what set me off was the comment about needing a 105mm gun or larger to deal the heavies. Maybe I'm just having a bad day at work, as well.
 
Nov 5, 2012 10:22 AM
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In fact, just forget I said anything. I'm having a bad day. Sorry.
 
Nov 5, 2012 10:29 AM

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Cratex said:
In fact, just forget I said anything. I'm having a bad day. Sorry.
Actually I find your posts pretty informative. Judging from the armor data I found for various Churchill tanks, I have a feeling that the PzIV could have a chance if it hit its rear at point-blank range. Do you agree?
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 12:02 PM
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symbv said:
Cratex said:
In fact, just forget I said anything. I'm having a bad day. Sorry.
Actually I find your posts pretty informative. Judging from the armor data I found for various Churchill tanks, I have a feeling that the PzIV could have a chance if it hit its rear at point-blank range. Do you agree?
If you mean the Pz IV our heroes are using, it would depend upon the version of the Churchill - if it is a VII, then as @Yumekichi11 says I doubt the crew of the Churchill would even care it was being shot at.
 
Nov 5, 2012 12:13 PM

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Cratex said:
If you mean the Pz IV our heroes are using, it would depend upon the version of the Churchill - if it is a VII, then as @Yumekichi11 says I doubt the crew of the Churchill would even care it was being shot at.
I think the Churchill is a VII and has 25 to 50mm armor for its hull rear. You mean that PzIV could not even penetrate that thickness of armor?
So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.
 
Nov 5, 2012 1:59 PM
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symbv said:
Cratex said:
If you mean the Pz IV our heroes are using, it would depend upon the version of the Churchill - if it is a VII, then as @Yumekichi11 says I doubt the crew of the Churchill would even care it was being shot at.
I think the Churchill is a VII and has 25 to 50mm armor for its hull rear. You mean that PzIV could not even penetrate that thickness of armor?
It all depends upon what ammo our heroes have access to (as the war went on ammo was improved as long as the gun could handle the charge). And that lower armor value for the Churchill VII is probably for the hull top and rear, very unlikely targets - the actual "rear" was probably the '50'. But, yes, early versions of the Mk IV with the short 75 might not have the power to punch through 50mm of armor - it wasn't intended to fight other tanks.
FYI - when I want exact numbers I usually refer to this excellent site. It's aimed at people playing ASL, but it's the best site for hard numbers I've ever found.
 
Nov 5, 2012 7:08 PM

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Cratex said:
Yumekichi11 said:
Cratex said:
Yumekichi11 said:
symbv said:
soluuloi said:

2. Amateur hiting target is hard.

All the more impressive to see in ep.3 when the PzIV managed to score a critical hit at the front of the StgIII. Otherwise it would not have been possible to knock out that SPG at the front.




After checking the video a few times and reading comments in Japanese forums, I think what happened in the last duel between the Churchill and PzIV was that the PzIV actually managed to fire and hit the Churchill first but its turret is so thickly armored that the hit failed to knock it out. Churchill fired only very shortly after PzIV but it destoryed its gun and knocked it out. So in terms of tactics, Miho in fact won brilliantly but limited by the hardware she and her team could not snatch victory at the end.

NO NO! You need tank experts for this.

The Churchills have such a tick armor that no shell under 105mm can kill it nor penetrate it. If your tank is under 105mm your shells do TINK! TINK! BOUNCE! Nothing!

Hence only Tigers killed them easily and same problem for Tigers, if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO! Can't do shit against the armors of Tigers and Churchill along with KV2 as well.
Ermm... that is simply not true. It's so not true I don't even no where to start.
Yeah it's true and you can start in by reading the testimonies from the people that wrote books about their encounter with the tanks. It's simply true and till it got realized it was quite a problem to kill Churchills that and their weak point.


Let's start by examining what you first said: " if your shells are smaller than those of a 105mm. BOO BOO!'"

Cratex said:
NO German tank had a gun larger than 88mm. When you can get your facts straight on that, come back and talk.

(there was a tank destoryer with a 122mm gun, and a couple of assault guns with 105mm or larger, but the former was not a factor on the western front and the later were HE weapons)
Yes they did put some on Tigers later on to counter it. At least the shells were better too. So either way Tigers became better at destroying heavy armored tanks.
" you can start in by reading the testimonies from the people that wrote books about their encounter with the tanks."

Cratex said:
List your sources, please.
ASAP, that might take time but I do have some.

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Nov 6, 2012 1:43 AM

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Im surprised, how this one can be one of best anime of the season...
And we have best comments here because they teach and help me a lot on understanding the anime.
Thank you.
 
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