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Sep 9, 2012 10:59 AM

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naruto was like my gateway drug. sure it ain't great but I still enjoy it. same goes to bleach.
 
Sep 9, 2012 11:00 AM

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I know that, my point is that there are other big franchises wich could in fact compare to if not overtake the other series in length. And this especially applies to the manga versions.

This doesn't matter at all in the topic.

Hunter x Hunter for one is far more popular, this year 1-2 volumes were sold and it ranked as a series on the top sales list. I won't argue that while Bleach slipped it still sells more than most manga but my point is there are other series that are more or should be evenly qualified for this.

Popular isn't a word you can just use because it sounds pretty. Far more popular than what exactly? Certainly not OP or Naruto, maybe Bleach. You'd still have to considered the franchises as a whole(movies, games, novels, etc). HxH made a great return to SJ and TV but isn't massive franchise of products.

I think you're entirely missing my point about the last part that i said.... i was arguing compared to the entirety of other manga/anime that exist their writing isn't truly remarkable, they can be enjoyable but they are not literary masterpieces in the slightest. Most popular doesn't mean best written.

If the question is "Why have the big 3 last so long?" then the quality of the writing clearly isn't the answer, so you have no point.

 
Sep 9, 2012 11:02 AM
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link9us said:


When you think "naruto" you favor characters like kakashi and itachi, when you think bleach, you favor byakuya, renji or yamomoto, when you think D Gray man, you think of characters like Lenalee, Road, Tyke, or Noah. When you think of hitman reborn, you look at characters like reborn, yamamato and Hayate. Because these characters are exactly depicted in that fashion, they are already strong, they have thier path set before them, they know what must be done, they are not portrayed as a clueless child like the main character is.

Dafuq?

I'll give you Kakashi and Itachi but.....

Renji is weak as hell, and got stomped by Ichigo when they first met. Call it "plotkai", but it is what it is. Byakuya, the other captains, Urahara and Yoruichi get a pass. But Renji? When has he done anything of significance? Never. Not many people favor Renji over the MC and see him as some badass, "mature" warrior.

Allen Walker was above Lenalee from the get-go, and was never "helpless Naruto-tier". Allen may be naive because he somewhat cares for his enemies, but Lenalee is a "clueless" child herself. A lot of people find her annoying btw. Marian Cross would have been a better example.

And who's Hayate? You mean Hayato Gokudera? If so, that's a bad example. He's pretty weak and he rides Tsuna's nuts like a rodeo show. Hibari would have been a better choice.
 
Sep 9, 2012 11:26 AM
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Anime_Name said:
I know that, my point is that there are other big franchises wich could in fact compare to if not overtake the other series in length. And this especially applies to the manga versions.

This doesn't matter at all in the topic.

Hunter x Hunter for one is far more popular, this year 1-2 volumes were sold and it ranked as a series on the top sales list. I won't argue that while Bleach slipped it still sells more than most manga but my point is there are other series that are more or should be evenly qualified for this.

Popular isn't a word you can just use because it sounds pretty. Far more popular than what exactly? Certainly not OP or Naruto, maybe Bleach. You'd still have to considered the franchises as a whole(movies, games, novels, etc). HxH made a great return to SJ and TV but isn't massive franchise of products.

I think you're entirely missing my point about the last part that i said.... i was arguing compared to the entirety of other manga/anime that exist their writing isn't truly remarkable, they can be enjoyable but they are not literary masterpieces in the slightest. Most popular doesn't mean best written.

If the question is "Why have the big 3 last so long?" then the quality of the writing clearly isn't the answer, so you have no point.


It does matter because i didn't knew what exactly you were arguing with me about, wether or not a series is qualified because of how long or how popular they are, you seemed to take a bite at both approaches.

If you want me to give you the sales lists that's fine with me, since that is obviously the most simple way to indicate the popularity of a series. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-06-01/top-selling-manga-in-japan-by-series/2012-first-half
Considering you apparently know the series you probably already know that the amount of volumes released by Naruto were higher than that of HxHs, so technically HxH won over Naruto because it had less volumes.

Wether or not how popular the series is considering the kind of merchandise it spawns is impossibly to discuss though, so i'll leave that point.

Actually i was kind of answering the question mainly "why are the big 3 so great", wich actually kind of implies that they are supposedly some great works of writing, wich they are not. To an extent that is indeed subjective but you aren't going to tell me that they can compare to series such as Phoenix or Lone Wolf and Cub per example.
 
Sep 9, 2012 11:41 AM

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It does matter because i didn't knew what exactly you were arguing with me about, wether or not a series is qualified because of how long or how popular they are, you seemed to take a bite at both approaches.

A series is qualified as great when it becomes popular and lasts longer than most series around. That is just one way to qualify a series as great. You can also come up with arguments that are just about objective quality but don't ignore that subjective greatness also exists.

Considering you apparently know the series you probably already know that the amount of volumes released by Naruto were higher than that of HxHs, so technically HxH won over Naruto because it had less volumes.

Again, the term "big 3" is not a title that's going to be passed down to whatever manga/anime tops the charts. It was concocted because of Naruto, OP, and Bleach. So the Big 3 will always be those 3. If some other notable combination happens then someone will try to come up with a term them.

Wether or not how popular the series is considering the kind of merchandise it spawns is impossibly to discuss though, so i'll leave that point.

The merchandise is a key factor that showed how well those franchises perform in a variety of places for SJ. The Big 3's performance at the theater, in games, and toys all factor into why those franchises are huge. Sorry, it's not just about whether or not you think they are written well.

Actually i was kind of answering the question mainly "why are the big 3 so great", wich actually kind of implies that they are supposedly some great works of writing, wich they are not.

It doesn't imply that at all.

 
Sep 9, 2012 11:56 AM
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Anime_Name said:

It does matter because i didn't knew what exactly you were arguing with me about, wether or not a series is qualified because of how long or how popular they are, you seemed to take a bite at both approaches.

A series is qualified as great when it becomes popular and lasts longer than most series around. That is just one way to qualify a series as great. You can also come up with arguments that are just about objective quality but don't ignore that subjective greatness also exists.

Considering you apparently know the series you probably already know that the amount of volumes released by Naruto were higher than that of HxHs, so technically HxH won over Naruto because it had less volumes.

Again, the term "big 3" is not a title that's going to be passed down to whatever manga/anime tops the charts. It was concocted because of Naruto, OP, and Bleach. So the Big 3 will always be those 3. If some other notable combination happens then someone will try to come up with a term them.

Wether or not how popular the series is considering the kind of merchandise it spawns is impossibly to discuss though, so i'll leave that point.

The merchandise is a key factor that showed how well those franchises perform in a variety of places for SJ. The Big 3's performance at the theater, in games, and toys all factor into why those franchises are huge. Sorry, it's not just about whether or not you think they are written well.

Actually i was kind of answering the question mainly "why are the big 3 so great", wich actually kind of implies that they are supposedly some great works of writing, wich they are not.

It doesn't imply that at all.


It can imply at both it's size and about how well it is done. I don't exactly want to turn this into an argument about the definition of "great". So i'll just say i was making a point about both how big and how well it was done. And even so it has competitors in both.

I'm not saying that it is like that, i'm saying the "big 3" as a title in general doesn't really make sense because popularity rises and lowers as time goes. Big 3 as a name is given because they were the most popular series for an extremely short amount of time, such a short amount of time that i find it ridiculous to give it that kind of a name. My argument is that the label "big 3" is simply something that snowballed, it barely has any credibility to own upto that kind of thing. Why do you so insist on connecting my issue about the writing to my issue about the name?

And i said to drop the issue about the merchandising because there is no way to prove what is more popular through that in whatsoever way. IF there is a way for you to prove that to me worldwide or in Japan feel free to. But i don't have that kind of resource.
 
Sep 9, 2012 12:24 PM

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It can imply at both it's size and about how well it is done.

It could but it doesn't. Greatness and length of a TV show both just imply that said TV show was popular enough to continue to air for years and depending on the type of show being well written may be a factor but it isn't necessarily so.

I don't exactly want to turn this into an argument about the definition of "great".

Correct you really don't. At some point in that argument you'd have to acknowledge that there are multiple definitions for "great" and that subjective/popularity is the sort of greatness the Big 3 hold.

I'm not saying that it is like that, i'm saying the "big 3" as a title in general doesn't really make sense because popularity rises and lowers as time goes.

Time goes on but labels tend to stick for a long time. The "Big 3" titles was created at a time when Naruto, OP, and Bleach dominated theaters, manga sales, and merchandising at the same time and all happened to be from Jump. Of course the label snowballed, it was just a random term someone adopted and stuck. That's generally how labels, nicknames, memes, shorthand, and other non-official titles happen. I'm not connecting the issues together as I am dealing with each in separate paragraphs.

And i said to drop the issue about the merchandising because there is no way to prove what is more popular through that in whatsoever way. IF there is a way for you to prove that to me worldwide or in Japan feel free to. But i don't have that kind of resource.

The fact a franchise gets merchandise is proof in and of itself. The performance and availability of merchandise for each franchise is another form of proof of popularity for that franchise. Part of being popular means that a franchise becomes well-known and common. So a franchise with the most merchandise is going to be roughly be the most popular.

 
Sep 9, 2012 12:39 PM
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Anime_Name said:
It can imply at both it's size and about how well it is done.

It could but it doesn't. Greatness and length of a TV show both just imply that said TV show was popular enough to continue to air for years and depending on the type of show being well written may be a factor but it isn't necessarily so.

I don't exactly want to turn this into an argument about the definition of "great".

Correct you really don't. At some point in that argument you'd have to acknowledge that there are multiple definitions for "great" and that subjective/popularity is the sort of greatness the Big 3 hold.

I'm not saying that it is like that, i'm saying the "big 3" as a title in general doesn't really make sense because popularity rises and lowers as time goes.

Time goes on but labels tend to stick for a long time. The "Big 3" titles was created at a time when Naruto, OP, and Bleach dominated theaters, manga sales, and merchandising at the same time and all happened to be from Jump. Of course the label snowballed, it was just a random term someone adopted and stuck. That's generally how labels, nicknames, memes, shorthand, and other non-official titles happen. I'm not connecting the issues together as I am dealing with each in separate paragraphs.

And i said to drop the issue about the merchandising because there is no way to prove what is more popular through that in whatsoever way. IF there is a way for you to prove that to me worldwide or in Japan feel free to. But i don't have that kind of resource.

The fact a franchise gets merchandise is proof in and of itself. The performance and availability of merchandise for each franchise is another form of proof of popularity for that franchise. Part of being popular means that a franchise becomes well-known and common. So a franchise with the most merchandise is going to be roughly be the most popular.


I simply interpreted the title of the topic as such, my view of point about it still stands as such.

I'm not exactly sure what you wanted to point out with your second quote. My point was exactly that there are multiple definitions of it and i commented on both of them.

Well my point is just that my POV still stands, i just find that the "big 3" label is extremely exaggerated. Were they popular? Yes. But they are made out to be some of the greatest series ever. Wich i greatly disagree with.

Well yes, but there are merchandise for both you know. To know this accurately we'd have to go to Japan to verify wich is more popular there. Since outside of Japan we can't exactly be accurate about it. Since both mediums are the most popular in Japan.
 
Sep 9, 2012 12:59 PM

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The sells.
Saving up money for Cosplay.~
 
Sep 9, 2012 1:11 PM

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I simply interpreted the title of the topic as such, my view of point about it still stands as such.

Then why not try reading the opening post, other comments, and use a bit of judgement in order to find what the context of greatness if being covered.

I'm not exactly sure what you wanted to point out with your second quote. My point was exactly that there are multiple definitions of it and i commented on both of them.

Well when I first replied you only commented about possible objective quality and find popularity alone to be a more suitable answer. Too bad understanding popularity also means you'd have to understand that many people can like something despite any objective arguments you can raise.

Well my point is just that my POV still stands, i just find that the "big 3" label is extremely exaggerated. Were they popular? Yes. But they are made out to be some of the greatest series ever. Wich i greatly disagree with.

It seems like you are just making up crap now. There's nothing exaggerated about the label. There's 3 franchises and when the term was adopted those franchises made up a significant portion of SJ's brand recognition in many different places.

Well yes, but there are merchandise for both you know. To know this accurately we'd have to go to Japan to verify wich is more popular there. Since outside of Japan we can't exactly be accurate about it. Since both mediums are the most popular in Japan.

I don't really have to tour Japan to know that Bleach has had more merchandise and axillary goods than not just this current anime run of HxH but the entire HxH franchise. You don't need to be accurate. You can eyeball all the entries in any gaming catalog, novel database, and movie theaters. But it seems you're just going to stick you head in the sand as deep as it can go when it comes to your "POV".

 
Sep 9, 2012 1:26 PM
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Anime_Name said:
I simply interpreted the title of the topic as such, my view of point about it still stands as such.

Then why not try reading the opening post, other comments, and use a bit of judgement in order to find what the context of greatness if being covered.

I'm not exactly sure what you wanted to point out with your second quote. My point was exactly that there are multiple definitions of it and i commented on both of them.

Well when I first replied you only commented about possible objective quality and find popularity alone to be a more suitable answer. Too bad understanding popularity also means you'd have to understand that many people can like something despite any objective arguments you can raise.

Well my point is just that my POV still stands, i just find that the "big 3" label is extremely exaggerated. Were they popular? Yes. But they are made out to be some of the greatest series ever. Wich i greatly disagree with.

It seems like you are just making up crap now. There's nothing exaggerated about the label. There's 3 franchises and when the term was adopted those franchises made up a significant portion of SJ's brand recognition in many different places.

Well yes, but there are merchandise for both you know. To know this accurately we'd have to go to Japan to verify wich is more popular there. Since outside of Japan we can't exactly be accurate about it. Since both mediums are the most popular in Japan.

I don't really have to tour Japan to know that Bleach has had more merchandise and axillary goods than not just this current anime run of HxH but the entire HxH franchise. You don't need to be accurate. You can eyeball all the entries in any gaming catalog, novel database, and movie theaters. But it seems you're just going to stick you head in the sand as deep as it can go when it comes to your "POV".


Asking everyone to always read the entirety of a thread before commenting is a little ridiculous no? Sorry if that goes against you but i'm not gonna read the entirety of every thread before commenting.

I do understand that it is popular (for whatever reason), but i seperated the point of popularity and how the writing itself is done, for some reason you seem to connect the two. I do not. If you want me to break it down as simple as possible. They are popular series but they aren't examples of great writing, my point about its writing isn't colliding with my point about its popularity at all.

Like hell am i making up stuff, if i was the label itself would be obscure now. Wich it is not. My problem with it is that it's still being treated as bigtime stuff, while it's kinda not. It is treated as a current phenomenom.

Stick my head into the sand? No. You don't have a single idea about how the dealings are being made of doing movies, animes, merchandise and whatnot and nor do i, it is impossible for you to decide wich is factually more popular. The only way to know that would to have Togashi make a clear public statement about that.
 
Sep 9, 2012 1:42 PM

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How about stop making up shit? I didn't say to read the entirety of the thread. I don't see how suggesting to read the opening post and some other comments before running off with an opinion that doesn't really match the discussion as being ridiculous.

I did not connect the two and have been only speculating one the greatness of the Big 3 in regards to their popularity. I've did make one comment about the quality of writing not being a factor for the success of the Big 3. So where is this connection you say I am making at?

Why would the label be obscure now? It still applies and is still being used by a lot of people. Labels don't just fall into obscurity because you don't agree with them.

I didn't say anything about the dealings. All you need to do is count what has been made and check the sales. There is no need to Togashi to make a statement because it is clear to anyone that Bleach has more associated goods than HxH. Which means a higher brand recognition and popularity when not strictly speaking about the anime or manga. So yeah for you it's going to be tough to measure popularity if you choose to ignore every other factor that doesn't support what you believe.

 
Sep 9, 2012 7:04 PM
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Anime_Name said:
How about stop making up shit? I didn't say to read the entirety of the thread. I don't see how suggesting to read the opening post and some other comments before running off with an opinion that doesn't really match the discussion as being ridiculous.

I did not connect the two and have been only speculating one the greatness of the Big 3 in regards to their popularity. I've did make one comment about the quality of writing not being a factor for the success of the Big 3. So where is this connection you say I am making at?

Why would the label be obscure now? It still applies and is still being used by a lot of people. Labels don't just fall into obscurity because you don't agree with them.

I didn't say anything about the dealings. All you need to do is count what has been made and check the sales. There is no need to Togashi to make a statement because it is clear to anyone that Bleach has more associated goods than HxH. Which means a higher brand recognition and popularity when not strictly speaking about the anime or manga. So yeah for you it's going to be tough to measure popularity if you choose to ignore every other factor that doesn't support what you believe.


If you so deliberately seem convinced that i am making shit up then tell me what am i making up? What exactly am i fabricating out of nowhere here?

Also i did read the first post mind you. And it still contained the word "great" wich you seem to cling onto only one definition of it, interpretation of what someone says can be different from person to person you know? I'd say you're making up shit of your own now.

As to where the connection you seem to be pointing at is? You just seem to be pulling it at me sometimes under wich on post 201.

I agree that it was popular upto a certain point, right now it kind of is incorrect.

That is exactly wich i said, i don't have the accessibility to these supposed sales. As i said, if you have some sort of source about this feel free to share it. And no i don't choose to ignore it, you just can't come up with tangible proof unless you cite some sort of source.

Anyway i think this thing got entirely blown up since my point is just that this big 3 thing is still considered current by a lot of people wich it is not.
 
Sep 9, 2012 7:32 PM

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Vorlianis said:
Anime_Name said:


That is exactly wich i said, i don't have the accessibility to these supposed sales. As i said, if you have some sort of source about this feel free to share it. And no i don't choose to ignore it, you just can't come up with tangible proof unless you cite some sort of source..


Really????

I present to you www.google.com
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Sep 9, 2012 10:20 PM

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At one point of time One Piece, Naruto, and Bleach were the three most popular mangas and as such received the most discussion. The previously popular manga site OneManga noticed this and in its forums it allocated these three mangas in one section called "The Big Three". This term eventually grew popularity and spread to the anime community despite the fact that the One Piece anime was not very popular at that time.

I hope this clears things up.
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Sep 10, 2012 10:58 AM
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Shibunari said:
Vorlianis said:
Anime_Name said:


That is exactly wich i said, i don't have the accessibility to these supposed sales. As i said, if you have some sort of source about this feel free to share it. And no i don't choose to ignore it, you just can't come up with tangible proof unless you cite some sort of source..


Really????

I present to you http://www.google.com


Yes. Search it up on me for google then if you wish and give me the top sales lists for the last 5 years or so.
 
Sep 10, 2012 12:28 PM

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Unlike a lot of people on here I definitely think that those 3 anime are really good, I'm really into shounen and everything though. I don't like naruto shippuden as much as I used too, I think it should have stopped at just the first season. Bleach is a top notch shounen in my opinion, but one piece out does them all by far. One piece is definitely a masterpiece.
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Oct 30, 2012 3:28 AM
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I like to watch the fight scenes of the big 3, when the MC gets serious.
 
Oct 30, 2012 4:16 AM

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What makes the big 3 so great is a mixture of many things in my opinion; it underlines many morals, is extremely popular all over the world, and is just pure awesome.
Most shounen anime have a great deal of morals that they want to teach to their target audience (ages 12+). One Piece shows how it's always important to trust and believe in your friends. Naruto shows that you should never give up on friends and.... I'm not sure about bleach but there's definitely something there :P
The big 3 are the most popular anime in the world and it's no surprise for me who is UP TO DATE on ALL 3. Shows like Cartoon Network would always try to buy the anime to show on tv. Many westerners don't take anime that is for older people seriously (josei & seinen) because they think that anime is just another word for cartoon and so people who watch cartoons in their countries would only be people who watch Simpsons or flinstones.
The pure entertainment value in the Big 3 is probably the main reason why it's so great. Each of them are different and have their own crazy main characters. The storylines are probably typical shounen ones but artists have obviously done something different to make it more appealing for a typical otaku (me).
To conclude it's true that many people think that shounen anime's are boring and derivitave but that's probably because they dropped it after 50 episodes or so. To really understand why One Piece is awesome you'd have to get to Enies Lobby Arc (264). In all honesty Naruto was pretty average but Naruto Shippuden really made things EPIC. Bleach is pretty boring until Aizen becomes the main antagonist.
 
Oct 30, 2012 8:02 AM

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One Piece is okay, but the other two don't really appeal to me. They're popular for the same reason DBZ was: they have a lot of appeal to a younger audience. Even though I'm 20 and still love DBZ
 
Oct 30, 2012 10:14 AM

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Well I don't buy the crap about shounen series delivering any moral teachings of friendship or comradeship or good and evil in general. Those moral talks are just used in the big 3 as a convenient conversation tool to repeat before every and any fight, they don't have any real indepth in them.

Why they are big three? Well.. I believe because each of them has a good idea for shounen and they have large variety of characters to attract maxium audience so each would have atleast one favorite character. That added with strong first 100 chapters / 50 episodes and you have landed a hit that you make money for the rest of your life. After they became famous they became more easily accessible to read and watch. Because they are easily chewable series that doesn't hold any difficult concepts or thought provoking controversial ideas they suit pretty much everyone. You just watch how they gradually run out of ideas and how it becomes apparent that series hasn't been planned and they find themselfs in tight spot on how to continue the story (One Piece is an exception for most parts here). Deus ex machina effects are common in all three if there's a problem of contradiction to originally said just use ninjutsu or create devil fruit to explain it. Someone died? No problem lets raise him with ninjutsu, devilfruit ability or time reversing fairy magic.

Summary: Easily accessable, easy to understand concept, good first few arcs, large variety of characters and interesting enviroment,
 
Oct 30, 2012 11:37 AM

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they are big and they are 3.
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