Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 12 Discussion

Forgetfulness said:

What is there to explain? Fate/stay night is the sequel to fate/zero but came first. However you should still be able. to understand it

Well to summarize,

I added some stuff from other series to help explain but it shouldnt be that hard to get

Forgetfulness said:

What is there to explain? Fate/stay night is the sequel to fate/zero but came first. However you should still be able. to understand it

Well to summarize,

I added some stuff from other series to help explain but it shouldnt be that hard to get

Hiryu12 said:
Was it really necessary for Archer to be stark naked?

Sad for Kiritsugu... =(

Great unexpected endings... <3

Definitely better than the first season...

9/10

Exaccus said:

1) The series tried too hard to make itself "mature" and "deep" by shoehorning lots of manipulative sadists, contrived shock value, and edgy scenes that all just came across as a gratuitous and a big turn off. Eg: Sakura and those bugs, Kariya strangling Aoi, Kirei strangling Iris, Zouten being a sadistic bastard to his own son, Kirei and Gilgamesh trolling Kariya, etc etc. All a compensation for a lack of worthwhile content.

2) Bizarre/anticlimactic plot progression and endings everywhere. This includes the main plot in addition to the subplots. What was the point of Kariya and his objective? Just to get trolled and die for no reason? Kiritsugu never achieved his goal. Saber didn't achieve her goal. Maiya, Kayneth, and Sola Ui all died like dogs. Assassin got no character depth or growth, or a Noble Phantasm, and was killed off early. Lancer got shat on by everyone (except Saber) and died. Rider got utterly wtfpwned by the overpowered Gilgamesh. Berserker hardly got screen time at all and his subplot with Saber seemed rushed and vaguely explained. Caster and his Ryuunosuke were just a couple insane murderers who contributed nothing substantive and worthwhile to the plot, unless you consider butchering kids a positive thing. Tokiomi hardly did anything beyond getting back-stabbed by Kirei. Kirei and Gilgamesh are basically just a couple of scheming douchebags who "won" in the end. That's pretty much it. What a pointless and extremely unsatisfying conclusion.

3) Unrelatable cast. Brooding, scheming old men with dead eyes and lifeless personalities, making them unrelatable and incomprehensible for the viewer. I'm talking mainly about Kirei, Tokiomi, and Kiritsugu. I liked Saber and Rider, though the latter's philosophy of kingship is troubling to me. Most everyone else was either just there or was one of many characters that were reprehensible.

4) Lack of fights. One would think that a show about a holy grail war would have plenty of epic battles. Oddly enough, there are very few. And even when fights do occur, they are brief and never seem to result in anything conducive to moving the plot forward. The only one I enjoyed was the short bout between Kirei and Kiritsugu near the end. Why couldn't there have been more fights as exciting as that one? All that good art and animation wasn't put to good use as it should have.

5) Slow pacing. This point is rather self explanatory. The first season especially suffered from this with almost nothing worth a damn happening each episode.

6) Tedious, straining dialogue spam. Do I even need to explain? Thankfully, there was a lot less of this in the second half of the show.

Overall, the entire anime accomplished nothing in the end. Unless you consider killing off and/or trolling cast members for no reason to be an accomplishment.

Moreover, its attempt to be deep, insightful, and mature fails and instead comes across as pretentious, fraudulent, and ultimately vacuous.

Exaccus said:
2) Bizarre/anticlimactic plot progression and endings everywhere. This includes the main plot in addition to the subplots. What was the point of Kariya and his objective? Just to get trolled and die for no reason? Kiritsugu never achieved his goal. Saber didn't achieve her goal. Maiya, Kayneth, and Sola Ui all died like dogs. Assassin got no character depth or growth, or a Noble Phantasm, and was killed off early. Lancer got shat on by everyone (except Saber) and died. Rider got utterly wtfpwned by the overpowered Gilgamesh. Berserker hardly got screen time at all and his subplot with Saber seemed rushed and vaguely explained. Caster and his Ryuunosuke were just a couple insane murderers who contributed nothing substantive and worthwhile to the plot, unless you consider butchering kids a positive thing. Tokiomi hardly did anything beyond getting back-stabbed by Kirei. Kirei and Gilgamesh are basically just a couple of scheming douchebags who "won" in the end. That's pretty much it. What a pointless and extremely unsatisfying conclusion.

HikariJake said:
Just... a great anime. I loved the ending, and how it ties into Fate/stay night (Shirou! :D). With amazing action, story, character development, and music, this series gets a 10/10 from me! :D

And I disagree with the post above, I thought that the dialogue in this series was very good and thought-provoking.
Also, I loved the Openings and the first season's Ending, just thought I should mention that, because why not.

migohunter said:
Not the best episode, but the ending at least tied up all the loose ends, and sets up for the sequel (Fate/Stay Night, which I have not watched yet...).

I'll still give this anime as a whole 10/10, because it was glorious.

ssjokg said:

Dont watch the FSN anime.

The one responsible for the script forgot to add the "making sense" part.
You will just see things happen for a reason.In some cases there isnt even one.

migohunter said:


Yeah, I've heard from many sources to stay clear away from the anime so I won't watch it. Maybe I'll read the VN, just maybe.... Shirou is already looking like an annoying main character though.

Also I am a little curious as to how Kirei actually won the war and got his wish of destruction...?

Exaccus said:
2) Bizarre/anticlimactic plot progression and endings everywhere

SimmianPrime said:
I think you misunderstood a bit.

I'm not saying Tokiomi was badass, cos he definitely he wasn't. I'm saying I expected him too be, mainly because Emiya said something like he was the 3rd most dangerous person in the war. And since he hadn't done anything badass before he got stabbed I expected his moment to come later (eg. showing back up alive and doing something important)

I expected Kariya to have some sort of an impact. Otherwise what was the point in surviving that training?

They may be epic in design but in practice destroying the reality marble certainly didn't feel epic. Gil being able to win so easily is part of the problem I had, he's too powerful to be exciting. I'm saying that (at least imo) it would have been better if he wasn't so powerful and him and Rider had truly epic 1v1.

Couldn't they use 1 seal to command him to immediately kill all the other masters and servants as fast as possible then use a 2nd to command him to kill himself immediately upon completing the 1st command? They'd even have a seal left to spare.

SimmianPrime said:
Oh yeah I totally forgot about Kayneth lol. Another character that I thought had the same sort of problem, he didn't really do much to affect the overall story. He's probably the worst offender.

I got that some of Kariya's actions had/will have massive implications for some people's lives and I actually think it was a good move to have him not really achieve any of his goals. Since (as you said) not everyone is rewarded for their actions. But he still had the problem of not doing much to effect the actual plot of this story. He didn't have to succeed in his goal but I felt that he should have done something to more to contribute to the story.

I get that Gilgamesh is OP and I think it's a mistake. Since the outcome of every fight against him is already known it takes away the possible tension.......plus I REALLY wanted to see Rider going full on toe to toe with someone.

Urek said:
ima off watching fate stay night now *ROAR*

Ozaren21 said:


Am I the only one who thinks that F/SN isn't that terribly bad?

RazielZero said:
Ending thoughts:
-So...how did Kirei survive again? He died, but the dark evil mud saved him, because he is evil? Nevermind, I don't actually care anymore.

ssjokg said:
I love how you actually throw away the explanation given because of your hate for the character.

RazielZero said:

That would make sense, but no :D I really didn't get it. Perhaps my mind really was clouded by hate :D Or it could have been lack of background knowledge. I don't wanna rewatch the scene again, but it was something about the contract between Kirei and Gilgamesh iirc. Or did the "grail" give him another chance? Or that Angra Mainyu or whoever.

ssjokg said:
So since you did get an explanation other than Kirei being evil what is the problem?

RazielZero said:

Because it doesn't make sense. Why would it choose him (if that was supposed to be the explanation)? Only because he was there at the right place at the right time? Or was it because that Angra Mainyu thing saw potential in him? Potential for him being able to bring about his birth to this world? I don't think it was explained that well.
I don't know it just seems like it was a poor plot device to make him be able to come back even after dying. I would have felt the same way even if it was any other character, like Alexander or Kiritsugu.
The explanation itself is what I don't like, not that he actually came back. It would have been fine if he just survived (for example he run away before Kiritsugu could shoot him or something like that).

ssjokg said:
So since you did get an explanation other than Kirei being evil what is the problem?

ssjokg said:
Please pay more attention to a series.
It was fact that he would survive,it wasnt just a "random poor plot device".And since you watched FSN first you would know that.Him surviving because his connection with Gil kept him alive as well isnt strange inside the premise of the show.

RazielZero said:

Of course I knew he was going to survive. That's why I said I have no problems with him surviving. It's still the WAY he survived that bugs me. Okay I know get that it was actually the contract between him and Gilgamesh. But still, the question remains in me. HOW? WHY?
All we know (from the anime, not any kind of other source "unknown to me") that Gilgamesh gained true incarnation, for some mysterious reason (the black mud spat him out). That's 1 unknown. Kirei survived and got revived because of his contract with Gilgamesh (who got true incarnation). Is their contract somehow special or could this have happened with any other pair as well? That's 2 unknown. Or actually, the 2nd unknown comes from the 1st unknown.
We didn't get any other explanation. Even Gilgamesh only said "Who can say?" and "It's the will of the gods".
The lacking explanation we got is why I call it a poor plot device. That's like saying "IDK, who cares, we need to be alive to be in F/SN".
And even if you were to explain it to me now with your background knowledge (by reading the manga/novel), the lack of explanation of the anime would remain.

Ozaren21 said:


I watched F/SN first and I didn't even know Zero existed.... And compared to SN Zero is mind blowing, but i think they shouldn't be compared as SN is way older and Zero exist to explain its plot.

Nightwire said:
Just finished this at last. Sad to say I didn't enjoy it as much as a lot of shows I've watched. The level of cruelty was massively over the top (and it's made worse by the fact that I read up on Kirei's 'servant contracts' that involve children). Even in the end, this show gives almost no respite.

The show left a bitter taste that I won't soon miss. However, it was quite good. It made me think a lot, the animation was great, and I really enjoyed some of the characters.

Overall, I give it an 8/10. Very tempted to give it a 9, but most anime I've watched leave me wishing it wasn't over, sometimes for a very long time. I'm literally quite happy to be done with this show >_>. That alone warrants a point deduction for me.

phantom19 said:
Strong series for the most part. Animation and sound were excellent. I liked how they didn't just end with the end of the war and showed what the remaining masters did afterward.

I didn't know Sakura was already so set into where she was. That line she says before Kariya is eaten by the worms was very cold. Also I literally lol'd when Kirei gave Rin the Azoth sword. I knew this from Stay Night but it was funny to see it anyway. It was also surprising to see Rin's mom is still alive. I don't remember if she was mentioned in SN.

Kiritsugu still stayed true to his ideal of saving others, even at the cost of his family. I don't know if I could do the same. He's obviously been like that since a boy and in the end he realized that there is no way to save everyone. I kind of wonder why he doesn't try and give his opinion about becoming a hero when Shirou says he'll take over. He knows it can't be done so I wonder why he said he's relieved.

Most of the deaths coming at the later part of the story was fine (I was wondering what I'd think of this at the end of the first season). I'm sure there was a bit more to the Berserker/Saber fight especially but I guess I'll have to read the LN at some point.

Anyway I really enjoyed watching this. I think I liked the story of SN a little bit more.