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Poll: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 6 Discussion


May 12, 2012 1:25 PM

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X10A_Freedom said:

Enough aviation geek banter and onto the anime. It's as if Kiritsugu was interrogating Natalia at the end about her future plans. I think Natalia's decision to retire and be a mother was the final straw in Kiritsugu's decision to shoot the aircraft down. If Natalia were to continue getting rid of wanted people, the remote possibility of releasing the insects may have been worth taking. She is one formidable assasin who can get rid of big targets into the future. Knowing she was going to retire would mean such a risk was no longer worth it as the 'return' would be zilch - she has become a civilian.


Good theory but her plans didnt matter at all.The death count would be higher(we are talking about New York city here)than the number of people they would have saved in the future in combination with the ones they saved in the past.
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May 12, 2012 1:25 PM

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Crimson_V said:
Lucena said:
Also, does anyone else think Kiritsugu's reasoning for killing Natalia is a little flawed?


nah, the plane was full of zombies he needed to blow up the plane so that the same disaster doesnt happen again, he already felt guilty for not killing shirley, so it was to be expected...


his decisions were always flawed




Good theory but her plans didnt matter at all.The death count would be higher(we are talking about New York city here)than the number of people they would have saved in the future in combination with the ones they saved in the past.


yep it was just his twisted logic at work
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 12, 2012 1:26 PM

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Crimson_V said:
Lucena said:
Also, does anyone else think Kiritsugu's reasoning for killing Natalia is a little flawed?


nah, the plane was full of zombies he needed to blow up the plane so that the same disaster doesnt happen again, he already felt guilty for not killing shirley, so it was to be expected...


Also you forget when you say his reasoning was flawed that where she was landing was no island; i mean I'm sure you know whether you have seen zombie (ghouls w/e, you get the point) movies or not how hard it is to contain that; its exactly like he said "who knows how many" could have died.

So i suppose the better question would be, what could you do better in his shoes? its easy to say i'll take the high road, but that just makes you Saber; all talk and nothing to back it up; since ideals only so far....
 
May 12, 2012 1:30 PM

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BloodRequiem said:
Crimson_V said:
Lucena said:
Also, does anyone else think Kiritsugu's reasoning for killing Natalia is a little flawed?


nah, the plane was full of zombies he needed to blow up the plane so that the same disaster doesnt happen again, he already felt guilty for not killing shirley, so it was to be expected...


his decisions were always flawed



You forget that
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May 12, 2012 1:47 PM
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Episode 1. Now we know.
 
May 12, 2012 2:02 PM

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ssjokg said:
BloodRequiem said:
Crimson_V said:
Lucena said:
Also, does anyone else think Kiritsugu's reasoning for killing Natalia is a little flawed?


nah, the plane was full of zombies he needed to blow up the plane so that the same disaster doesnt happen again, he already felt guilty for not killing shirley, so it was to be expected...


his decisions were always flawed



You forget that


As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 12, 2012 2:02 PM

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These last two episodes are better than the whole Fate/Zero series so far. Amazing. I even shed a tear at the end.
Natalia is badass.
 
May 12, 2012 2:05 PM
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Being Kiritsugu is suffering. Having to shoot down the person that help raised you is so sad to think about, amazing episode overall.
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May 12, 2012 2:12 PM

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I cried along with Kiritsugu. Poor guy keeps loosing everyone dear to him. ;_; And to know that this will never change is far too heartbreaking. T_T
 
May 12, 2012 2:13 PM
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Kiritsugu has turned his mind into steel.
My full blog post for the episode is here http://goani.me/fate-zero-episode-19/
 
May 12, 2012 2:39 PM

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Kiritsugu. Now I know why you are an emotionless bastard! =/

The conversation with Natalia before shooting down the plane was really bittersweet. It felt like Natalia expected the plane to crash or something. But man, I never thought that Kiritsugu would be the one to bring it down. Damn!

Props for Kerry's seiyuu for that "breaking down" scene. Brought me goosebumps. :)
 
May 12, 2012 2:44 PM

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I expected it from a mile away, but still...its still sad to watch him kill his "parent" figure for the second time.

4/5

I think this flashback arc was the low point for this half so far, but it was a necessary addition :D
 
May 12, 2012 3:11 PM

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So, it looks like the past arc is over.

Now back to action!
 
May 12, 2012 3:15 PM

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Another great look into Kiri's backstory I think. Those ghouls are nasty.
 
May 12, 2012 3:22 PM

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So defensive already?

While I thought it was done well, I didn't like this flashback. Yes, Kiritsugu is the main character, but he hasn't played a prominent enough role (over any of the other characters) in the war yet for me to care for a flashback. His personality was well-established without the use of his past, and I wasn't interested in seeing how it was developed. Of course, this is my opinion, and was already recognized as inferior before its existence. I expect lots of angry responses on why I must change it.
 
May 12, 2012 3:36 PM

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MissileSoup said:
So defensive already?

While I thought it was done well, I didn't like this flashback. Yes, Kiritsugu is the main character, but he hasn't played a prominent enough role (over any of the other characters) in the war yet for me to care for a flashback. His personality was well-established without the use of his past, and I wasn't interested in seeing how it was developed. Of course, this is my opinion, and was already recognized as inferior before its existence. I expect lots of angry responses on why I must change it.


Lets see if my response is like that then.
The point is that from here on it's all about Kirei and Kiritsugu.Kariya and Waver will be the same as before in screentime.And you need those eps for the last ep(probably the last 2 eps)as things change dramatically around him(and inside).Without those flashbacks we would be like Kirei wondering "Why oes this man fight","Why do these women protect him","
" .

You can also see it this way:If it wasnt for these 2 eps FZ would be23 episodes long.
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May 12, 2012 3:38 PM

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Quick though: was Kiritsugu's mentality after the shit that happened from last episode and the info of this episode like so….”Fuck everything as long as I can put to rest what started my Hell and rest….” could it be he lives only to stop all this for his FIRST LOVE! That would be Shirley as he blushed at that part in the last episode?

Can it be though of like that of his mental change?

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May 12, 2012 3:50 PM

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ssjokg said:
...

Well, noticed I said "yet". The problem I have with these responses is that you must bring in future events. While I don't read spoilers, your first few sentences are enough for me to speculate what will happen. While I don't care too much, it has no place in a discussion of this episode and before. Just like how this episode had no impact on me within the context of what has occurred thus far. Whether or not it becomes necessary in the future is irrelevant as of now. With this flashback, disregarding what may or may not happen in the future, you are still left to wonder "why this man fight," and "why do these women protect him."
 
May 12, 2012 3:51 PM

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Yumekichi11 said:
Quick though: was Kiritsugu's mentality after the shit that happened from last episode and the info of this episode like so….”Fuck everything as long as I can put to rest what started my Hell and rest….” could it be he lives only to stop all this for his FIRST LOVE! That would be Shirley as he blushed at that part in the last episode?

Can it be though of like that of his mental change?

No I dont think so.He literally breaks down after Natalia's death unlike what happened with Shirley.When he left the island he just seemed cold for a kid that was playing around before all hell broke loose.And in 1st season he asks Iri if he should grab her and Ilya and run away from all that so I doubt that Shirley is what keeps him going.
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May 12, 2012 3:56 PM

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ssjokg said:
Yumekichi11 said:
Quick though: was Kiritsugu's mentality after the shit that happened from last episode and the info of this episode like so….”Fuck everything as long as I can put to rest what started my Hell and rest….” could it be he lives only to stop all this for his FIRST LOVE! That would be Shirley as he blushed at that part in the last episode?

Can it be though of like that of his mental change?

No I dont think so.He literally breaks down after Natalia's death unlike what happened with Shirley.When he left the island he just seemed cold for a kid that was playing around before all hell broke loose.And in 1st season he asks Iri if he should grab her and Ilya and run away from all that so I doubt that Shirley is what keeps him going.
I should have mentioned it then could it be his mentality change after Natalia's death. Clearly a lot of shit that is happening is partially due to the competition of this whole ROOT and Holy Grail relics. So he would naturally to avenge both deaths of Justice itself to stop this whole thing altogether. NO MATTER WHAT. That is obvious from his aggressive stance on it.

NEED GERMAN HELP! For the spoiler
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May 12, 2012 3:56 PM

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MissileSoup said:
ssjokg said:
...

Well, noticed I said "yet". The problem I have with these responses is that you must bring in future events. While I don't read spoilers, your first few sentences are enough for me to speculate what will happen. While I don't care too much, it has no place in a discussion of this episode and before. Just like how this episode had no impact on me within the context of what has occurred thus far. Whether or not it becomes necessary in the future is irrelevant as of now. With this flashback, disregarding what may or may not happen in the future, you are still left to wonder "why this man fight," and "why do these women protect him."


But how can you say that it is irrelevant?That's what i dont get.And if you still wondering why he fights and why Iri and Maiya support him then you missed the point of those 2 eps plus some dialogues between him and Iri.
Modified by ssjokg, May 12, 2012 4:01 PM
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May 12, 2012 4:00 PM

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ssjokg said:
But how can you say that it is irrelevant?That's what i dont get.

Because you're tying in something that has not happened yet. Whether or not it will be relevant or not will depend on what happens. As of this episode, its only purpose was to flesh out the reason behind Kiritsugu's personality, a purpose which I stated I don't care for as a personal opinion.
 
May 12, 2012 4:12 PM

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MissileSoup said:
ssjokg said:
But how can you say that it is irrelevant?That's what i dont get.

Because you're tying in something that has not happened yet. Whether or not it will be relevant or not will depend on what happens. As of this episode, its only purpose was to flesh out the reason behind Kiritsugu's personality, a purpose which I stated I don't care for as a personal opinion.


So you mean all those that wonder "why is he such an asshole"since ep16 didnt find any purpose to this ep ?or how the info kirei had about him connect to those eps?
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May 12, 2012 4:18 PM

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ssjokg said:
So you mean all those that wonder "why is he such an asshole"since ep16 didnt find any purpose to this ep ?or how the info kirei had about him connect to those eps?

You'd have to ask the people that wondered that then. I didn't, and I don't see how other people's opinion has an effect on mine. The type of person he is was previously established. Whether or not you care about the reason behind it partly depends on how much you care for Kiritsugu as a character. I didn't, to that extent. Full circle.
 
May 12, 2012 4:55 PM

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just perfect. kitsurugu killed a important person to him to save other peoples. that's determination
5/5
 
May 12, 2012 5:53 PM
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Some people just didn't care about that character. Thus, it's a boring episode to watch for them. People have to understand that if someone don't care about a character, an episode featuring uniquely that character would be extremely boring. That's essentially how I felt about the entire season of Madoka.

Last thing we want to see here is a fan vs. hater argumentation between those who like and dislike Kiritsugu.

Now, this episode was a bit slower in pace but had a very touching build-up. It didn't really bring anything new to Kiritsugu's character but it's a nice break from the usual pacing. Good episode. Need to bump the scoring at this speed.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
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May 12, 2012 6:13 PM

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ssjokg said:
Yumekichi11 said:
Quick though: was Kiritsugu's mentality after the shit that happened from last episode and the info of this episode like so….”Fuck everything as long as I can put to rest what started my Hell and rest….” could it be he lives only to stop all this for his FIRST LOVE! That would be Shirley as he blushed at that part in the last episode?

Can it be though of like that of his mental change?

No I dont think so.He literally breaks down after Natalia's death unlike what happened with Shirley.When he left the island he just seemed cold for a kid that was playing around before all hell broke loose.And in 1st season he asks Iri if he should grab her and Ilya and run away from all that so I doubt that Shirley is what keeps him going.


tbh the problem is that they stretched half a chapters worth of material into an episode which seemed almost filler like
perhaps if they merged it with a bit of heart of freaks then i would find it acceptable

heres my interpretation:

natalia's death is quite similar to HF

natalia was killed by his own hands so of course it was going to have more of an impact on him
Modified by BloodRequiem, May 12, 2012 6:18 PM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 12, 2012 6:18 PM
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I've enjoyed this episode, all in all, very, very good execution. In that last moment, Natalia made a little smile...
btw, great music during initial airplane scenes, great CGI for water & rocket hitting the plane.
 
May 12, 2012 6:31 PM

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Jesus seems like every event Kiritsugu took place in could of started a world-wide zombie outbreak! :C but that ending got to me i knew it was coming but having to do that most likely broke whatever bit of humanity he had left if he did.
 
May 12, 2012 6:38 PM

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MissileSoup said:
While I thought it was done well, I didn't like this flashback. Yes, Kiritsugu is the main character, but he hasn't played a prominent enough role (over any of the other characters) in the war yet for me to care for a flashback. His personality was well-established without the use of his past, and I wasn't interested in seeing how it was developed. Of course, this is my opinion, and was already recognized as inferior before its existence. I expect lots of angry responses on why I must change it.
on the " His personality was well-established without the use of his past" i agree
and given how the flashbacks turned out i don't think i would have missed much at the current time if i happened to skip those
but there is a thing i think the flashbacks managed to achieve, they removed the doubt about the original cause of his actions

ssjokg said:
So you mean all those that wonder "why is he such an asshole"since ep16 didnt find any purpose to this ep ?or how the info kirei had about him connect to those eps?
i was curious to get an answer from these flashback, something traditional and redeeming for kiritsugu
i only got he's a born killer trying too hard to be heroic,
and over time, to the present, he started despising heroism as if the outcomes of his actions weren't his fault to be unable to apply it successfully

in a way his past desire to be "heroic" felt like the wish of a robot to be human, which in itself is commendable, what breaks it its his inability to fully understand or even visualize his goal, which brings him to be more harmful than helpful

it's like seeing a destruction machine attempting to create something artistic, he's a mess,
but now i'm imagining it and it feels a bit amusing... :| finally i've managed to pity him.... >.> (only his past self)
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May 12, 2012 7:04 PM

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Awww I totally knew he was going to shoot it down. Looks like Kiritsugu will finally use one of his command spells next episodes.
 
May 12, 2012 7:08 PM
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Linkark07 said:
Oh darn, that must be quite painful for Kiritsugu kill the only family he had at that time. I was hoping we would see at the end how Kerry met Iri.

Doubt they'd animate their meeting...there wasn't much mention of it in the novels iirc

The Drama CD from the1st blue-ray box does elaborate on how their first meeting is, and well other things leading to them of course falling in love.

Though it also makes the ED for this 2nd half of F/Z all the more heart wrenching...
 
May 12, 2012 7:27 PM

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It's quite a thing to see a stoic character like Kiristugu flip out and loose his shit.
 
May 12, 2012 7:31 PM

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On Mother's Day?

Wow.

Man, I'm speechless. Those last few minutes, I really felt it.

The animation wasn't as smooth as other episodes, but that's alright.
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May 12, 2012 7:47 PM

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Great episode. These two flashback episodes took F/Z to another level.

Just like many mentioned, it was on Mother's Day too. Which makes it all the more sad. The timing became too perfect to be coincidental.

5/5
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May 12, 2012 7:49 PM

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What a blow out for mother's day lol.
Natalia is one hell of a mother and what a badass episode.
I miss shirley again xD
 
May 12, 2012 8:20 PM
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Wow can this show get any better...? Amazing...
 
May 12, 2012 8:23 PM

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So emotional. Great episode. ;__;



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May 12, 2012 8:23 PM

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Really liked this episode.
 
May 12, 2012 8:29 PM

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MissileSoup said:
So defensive already?

While I thought it was done well, I didn't like this flashback. Yes, Kiritsugu is the main character, but he hasn't played a prominent enough role (over any of the other characters) in the war yet for me to care for a flashback. His personality was well-established without the use of his past, and I wasn't interested in seeing how it was developed. Of course, this is my opinion, and was already recognized as inferior before its existence. I expect lots of angry responses on why I must change it.


I can agree a little. I'm glad they kept it in to some extent since it's in the LN, but I think you're right that he is pretty established at this point. The main reason it's there is due to the direction things go later on, and also probably to give a little origin story after his proxy conversation with Saber. Since obviously as people get eliminated toward the end certain characters who survive will appear more, but it's really a pretty short bit in the novels either way. I think it could have gotten by on one episode, or 1.5 and jumping back to the present for the second half, but it's not a big enough deal to bother me at all.

Second season is Volume 3 and 4, I just took a look and this part takes basically 24 pages out of the total of 480 for both, so it's been given more focus for sure and there were definitely some minor bits added (like basically the whole early part of this episode, which also repeated the quick flashback explaining Kiritsugu's Mystic Code that was also shown in the first season) They should still have plenty of time for the remainder since there are of course cases where the opposite happens, like the description of Saber's motorcycle which I remember being pretty long.

It's something that was probably given more focus for people who didn't read the LN before and I can't really say if the extra focus is that important for an average anime only viewer, knowing the plot and characters beforehand. All I can say is I'm looking forward to seeing how some of the upcoming scenes are handled.
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May 12, 2012 9:20 PM

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NO NO NO!
I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY KILLED NATALIA!!!! I knew it was coming but I felt so anxious still! It really made me sad knowing that Natalia wanted to settle down afterwards....
Holy craap Kerry seriously broke down too.....

Best episode so far.

R.I.P. Natalia
 
May 12, 2012 9:38 PM

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Hm, not sure how I feel about this. This was a good episode and I liked it, but I didn't think they'd expand the airliner part this much. I guess in the end it'll be okay if the last half of the series doesn't feel rushed but...

I guess I'll wait and see.
 
May 12, 2012 10:05 PM

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Kiritsugu is one cold and mess up individual, why Natalia why? she was so bad ass and his mother in a way, like she said he had way to much potential just cold hearted, in the end that mental breakdown just goes to show ya that some shit you just cant recover from.



5/5


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May 12, 2012 10:20 PM

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I was just speechless after Kiritsugus breakdown.. RIP Natalia. I'm really starting to understand Kiritsugu now. He just took over the 2nd half of the show.
 
May 12, 2012 10:58 PM

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Such a great episode, fitting for mothers day
Really wanted to see how Kerry met Irisviel
Back to the grail war next episode
 
May 12, 2012 11:27 PM

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It was so obvious that that was his plan all along... but damn. A grown man crying like that... =/
 
May 12, 2012 11:29 PM

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I bet people will bitch, but those people clearly have no taste. This episode was great, very emotional. The dialogue was excellent.

 
May 12, 2012 11:43 PM
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Discord said:
a weird mother's day special from fate/zero 2



yep a tragic mothers day courtesy of fate/zero 2
 
May 12, 2012 11:55 PM

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wow. Kiritsugu is a pretty fucked up dude. Could tell Natalia wouldn't make it, but awww. I don't think she would have been mad, but still. Guy has already murdered his rather, and the person that became like a mother to him.
 
May 12, 2012 11:57 PM

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This episode is awesome! It's very emotional. Natalia knew that Kiritsugu is going to destroy the plane, yet she didn't try to prevent it. Instead, she spend her final moments talking to Kiritsugu. This show how much Natalia understand Kiritsugu. This somehow move me.
I'm sure many people would had guess that Kiritsugu is going to shoot down the plane when he set sail with his err bazooka?
Anyway this episode is 5/5
 
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