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Poll: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 6 Discussion


May 13, 2012 3:10 PM

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ssjokg said:
And who is Catalina? lol,jk


Epic fail, you know... [Facepalm]...

Anyways I feel a bit annoyed by all those occidental names with japanese pronunciation, the Name Shilrey appears in two different animes (weren't there more names to choose?) and still they are pronounced differently.
 
May 13, 2012 3:16 PM

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I knew he would end up doing this as soon as the plane was over-run with ghouls just because that's his nature. Good episode again providing a much needed back story.
 
May 13, 2012 3:17 PM

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Marius2005 said:
I didn't think these episodes were bad, I just don't think they lived up to the quality I have come to expect from Fate/Zero. The writing and development for Kiritsuga was really uneven which was a major disappointment for me. It felt like things were a bit rushed and that a large block of exposition at the back end was the only way to make any kind of sense out of these messy episodes. The exposition at the end was quite what I would call indigestible but it was a close call. Then you add in the over emotional scream at the end and it got to the point where I was laughing at the end of the episode.

In almost any other anime I probably wouldn't be this hard on these two episodes but these episodes barely even felt like Fate/Zero to be. The tone and the content always felt slightly off and I could never settle into their groove.

But it looks like we'll be getting back into the present storyline next week so I'm sure the show will be back to it's normal quality. I don't knock the show for doing something different with this extended flashback but I do take issue with how poorly it turned out.


That’s actually the approach that I was hoping for, back before they released episode 18. In the novel, I didn’t actually realize that it was a Kiritsugu flashback until someone dropped his real name. I wanted them to emulate that little twist in the anime, but didn’t believe that they’d actually be able to pull it off, since anime is a visual medium, in which you need to actually show what the characters look like. And since I figured that “Kerry” would look like a mini-Kiritsugu I didn’t think that anyone would fall for it.

In that regard, I’m quite pleased with the results, since according to a lot of viewers they thought that they had loaded up the wrong show. I assumed that if they pulled something like that, that it would end up sounding contrived, like in how a lot of anime the characters will go out of their way to avoid revealing a characters name by using terms such as “that person” or “that man”, but in this case it ended up being pretty natural.

Direction-wise, I think that Aoki and Kaijura really outdid themselves, since in previous episodes, it seemed as if they were really playing it safe as far as the scene transitions were concerned. In these two episodes, the visual displays matched up extremely well with what the characters were saying, without the inclusion of “talking heads”. We were actually shown the relationship between Natalia and Kiritsugu through visual motifs, such as the scene in which she corrected his holding of the gun, and the portion with the extended guitar BGM did a great job of non-orally communicating information that the novel simply narrated to us.

Overall, I actually feel the exact opposite in regard to the quality, since it seems as if they’ve really polished this section of the anime. Kaijura, for instance, had a bit of trouble impressing me before but in these episodes she went all out, while Ufotable, itself, mentioned that they had placed an extra amount of emphasis on the flashbacks, but I’m really hoping that the next episodes display the same degree of directing, animation, and musical quality that these past two have shown us. That would be love.
Modified by LunarMoon, May 13, 2012 3:20 PM
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
May 13, 2012 3:24 PM

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Bamkuro said:
ssjokg said:
And who is Catalina? lol,jk


Epic fail, you know... [Facepalm]...

Anyways I feel a bit annoyed by all those occidental names with japanese pronunciation, the Name Shilrey appears in two different animes (weren't there more names to choose?) and still they are pronounced differently.


Well same here but the only thing we can do is get used to it.What I dont know is whether VAs dont know how to pronounce western words or they do it because they fear the viewers will be confused....Now that I think about it did they choose to use Iskandar instead of Alexander because of that ( although it was like this in the LN too)?Because I am greek and I never knew of that version of the name.And even if it was really used that much isnt Alexander even more famous?Anyway he is nothing like the real person that's why I like him so much.
Modified by ssjokg, May 13, 2012 3:32 PM
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May 13, 2012 3:36 PM
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X10A_Freedom said:
Ufotable did a very nice CGI render of an A300B2 complete with wingtip fences in the old Air France colours. Even the cockpit was right, although the source picture the studio used was obviously on a shut-down aircraft on the ground. The airspeed indicator read 0 and the backup attitude indicator was tipped over. Such was the detail! Minor snag - Air France's A300B2-200s don't have the range to viably fly over the pond to New York!

Surface-to-air missile. I'd have thought it would be heat-seeking and go straight to the engine, but it went to the top of the wing instead with is rather bizarre. That said, an A300 in Iraq did survive a RPG which missed the engine and hit the outer wing from the bottom-up...


Yeah, Ufotable's render of the Airbus A300 was spot on and I was impressed by their work. However, I think the cockpit was that of a Boeing 747. In one scene where you see most of the flight instruments, I noticed that there were 4 throttles and 4 engine cut off switches, which is obviously odd for an aircraft with 2 engines. Besides that everything was accurate, even the old Air France paint scheme.



Other wise than that, awesome episode! 5/5
Modified by wenchance, May 13, 2012 11:46 PM
 
May 13, 2012 3:37 PM

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ssjokg said:
Well same here but the only thing we can do is get used to it.What I dont know is whether VAs dont know how to pronounce western words or they do it because they fear the viewers will be confused....Now that I think about it did they choose to use Iskandar instead of Alexander because of that ( although it was like this in the LN too)?Because I am greek and I never knew of that version of the name.And even if it was really used that much isnt Alexander even more famous?Anyway he is nothing like the real person that's why I like him so much.

I don't have any problems with pronouncing Western names in a Japanese way. It would be much more awkward if they pronounced Shirley with an American "r" or something like that, since that sound doesn't even exist in Japanese.

Also, isn't Alexander derived from Al-Iskandar or something like that?
 
May 13, 2012 3:38 PM
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ssjokg said:
Bamkuro said:
ssjokg said:
And who is Catalina? lol,jk


Epic fail, you know... [Facepalm]...

Anyways I feel a bit annoyed by all those occidental names with japanese pronunciation, the Name Shilrey appears in two different animes (weren't there more names to choose?) and still they are pronounced differently.


Well same here but the only thing we can do is get used to it.What I dont know is whether VAs dont know how to pronounce western words or they do it because they fear the viewers will be confused....Now that I think about it did they choose to use Iskandar instead of Alexander because of that ( although it was like in the LN too)?Because I am greek and I never knew of that version of the name.And even if it was really used that much isnt Alexander more famous?Anyway he is nothing like the real person that's why I like him so much.
I did kind of thought it odd that they would use his Persian name, but I guess Iskandar rolls off the tongue more easily for them. Let's ignore the fact he looks more like a Northern EUropean than a Macedonian (and he was nowhere near that big). Then again, I'm sure Giles de Rais didn't look like a humanoid frog when he was alive either.

Anyway, for everyone who just keep harping on Kiritsugu's decision on blowing the Air Bus, please rewatch the episode and pay close attention to one of Natalia's "Rules" that he teaches young Kiritsugu. This is what Natalia says to Young Kiri after the scene where she stops Kiritsugu from saving the two guys who run away: "No matter what happens, do what you must to survive. No matter what happens prioritize your life above all else.If you try to save others but end up dying it'd be for naught."

Basically, regardless of what happens Natalia's rule is to save herself. She had killed the target and the Church and Magi Association could potentially kill any resulting Ghouls (even if that'd end up with a significant chunk of innocents dying) so her best bet of surviving was to land the plane and escape, potential of ghouls escaping be damned. Remember, saving others isn't Natalia's goal, it's Kiritsugu's goal. Natalia works for money, that's all. So plain and simply Kiritsugu knew Natalia would prioritize herself rather than the containment of the Ghouls and as such it was a risk he, who prioritized saving as many as possible, found unacceptable. With a cold head the decision was simple, eliminate the plane and all the ghouls are gone, problem solved. It wasn't until he pulled the trigger that the emotional shock took over and his mind realized the gravity of his action.
Modified by Leon-Gun, May 13, 2012 3:42 PM

 
May 13, 2012 3:46 PM

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ataraxial said:

Also, isn't Alexander derived from Al-Iskandar or something like that?


The name is derived from the Greek "Αλέξανδρος" (Aléxandros) meaning "defending men" or "protector of men" a compound of the verb "ἀλέξω" (alexo), "to ward off" and the noun "ανδρός" (andros), genitive of man .And Al-Iskandar sounds a bit Arabic or something.Maybe Iskandar was use by the persians?I dont know...
Modified by ssjokg, May 13, 2012 3:55 PM
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May 13, 2012 3:48 PM
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ssjokg said:
ataraxial said:

Also, isn't Alexander derived from Al-Iskandar or something like that?


The name is derived from the Greek "Αλέξανδρος" (Aléxandros) meaning "defending men" or "protector of men" a compound of the verb "ἀλέξω" (alexo), "to ward off" and the noun "ανδρός" (andros), genitive of man .And Al-Iskandar sounds a bit Arabic or something.Maybe Iskandar was use by the persians?I dont know...
Yes, Iskandar is his Persian name.

 
May 13, 2012 3:52 PM

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i really dont understand how kiritsugu Bullets work !! i found it so Ridiculous ?
 
May 13, 2012 3:52 PM

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Great episode. I feel sorry for Natalia but it's just how it is.
 
May 13, 2012 3:54 PM
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loub31 said:
i really dont understand how kiritsugu Bullets work !! i found it so Ridiculous ?
It's a Mystic Code that uses his Origin magecraft. Obviously you won't get it unless you've read up on the background of all the magical mumbo jumbo Nasu made for Fate. Anyway, the way it works is literally this: Kiritsugu's origin magecraft is to "Cut" and "Bind". The bullets literally cut the magic circuits of the person they hit and then tie them back together improperly, esentially destroying their ability to be a magus. That's part of why he's called a "Magus Killer".

Mystic Code is just a name for "magical weapons" btw. You could technically consider Noble Phantasms to be very powerfull Mystic Codes, and Rin's jewels and her knife are also another example of a Mystic Code. So yeah, just any object that is "magical" in nature.

As for what an Origin is, it's esentially the thing that defines their existence. An example would be Shirou who's Origin is sword and as such even his abilities are centered on swords.
Modified by Leon-Gun, May 13, 2012 4:03 PM

 
May 13, 2012 3:59 PM

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Leon-Gun said:
ssjokg said:
Bamkuro said:
ssjokg said:
And who is Catalina? lol,jk


Epic fail, you know... [Facepalm]...

Anyways I feel a bit annoyed by all those occidental names with japanese pronunciation, the Name Shilrey appears in two different animes (weren't there more names to choose?) and still they are pronounced differently.


Well same here but the only thing we can do is get used to it.What I dont know is whether VAs dont know how to pronounce western words or they do it because they fear the viewers will be confused....Now that I think about it did they choose to use Iskandar instead of Alexander because of that ( although it was like in the LN too)?Because I am greek and I never knew of that version of the name.And even if it was really used that much isnt Alexander more famous?Anyway he is nothing like the real person that's why I like him so much.
I did kind of thought it odd that they would use his Persian name, but I guess Iskandar rolls off the tongue more easily for them. Let's ignore the fact he looks more like a Northern EUropean than a Macedonian (and he was nowhere near that big). Then again, I'm sure Giles de Rais didn't look like a humanoid frog when he was alive either.
.


I dont see how Diarmund is easier than Alexander but anyway.As for the appearance the same goes for Heracles even in Berserker class,the elf ears of Medea and no comment about Gilgamesh and Arturia....Medusa can be explained as having her human form before she became the gorgon...



loub31 said:
i really dont understand how kiritsugu Bullets work !! i found it so Ridiculous ?


Being forced to defend with magecraft, the impact of the Origin within the bullet affects everything all the way down to the Magic Circuits of the practitioner. If a magus' Circuits are a high-voltage power cable, then the impact of the bullet is comparatively a drop of water attaching itself to a thickly-placed electrical circuit. Once a conductive liquid becomes attached, the short-circuiting current will destroy the circuit itself, resulting in permanent damage. The more intense the pressure used to gather densely-packed prana for defense, the more active Magic Circuits will be functioning upon the moment of contact, and the more severe the destructive power of the bullet becomes. The "Severing" aspect will cause prana stored within the Circuits to ignore the paths within the body, flowing chaotically and destroying it in the process. Afterward, the circuits will be bound together again with the "Binding" aspect, rendering them permanently inoperable and destroying the target's magecraft abilities...more info http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Kiritsugu_Emiya
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May 13, 2012 4:06 PM

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Leon-Gun said:
loub31 said:
i really dont understand how kiritsugu Bullets work !! i found it so Ridiculous ?
It's a Mystic Code that uses his Origin magecraft. Obviously you won't get it unless you've read up on the background of all the magical mumbo jumbo Nasu made for Fate. Anyway, the way it works is literally this: Kiritsugu's origin magecraft is to "Cut" and "Bind". The bullets literally cut the magic circuits of the person they hit and then tie them back together improperly, esentially destroying their ability to be a magus. That's part of why he's called a "Magus Killer".

Mystic Code is just a name for "magical weapons" btw. You could technically consider Noble Phantasms to be very powerfull Mystic Codes, and Rin's jewels and her knife are also another example of a Mystic Code. So yeah, just any object that is "magical" in nature.

As for what an Origin is, it's esentially the thing that defines their existence. An example would be Shirou who's Origin is sword and as such even his abilities are centered on swords.

ok i will accept it like that

i think that Natalia didn't expect that Kiritsugu will explode the plane
 
May 13, 2012 4:49 PM
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Arqentum said:
Terrible episode:

1) 2 episodes for irrelevant filler/flashback in series? I don't mind if it was BD-exclusive OVA, but not here.

2) Situation as a whole is full of ...
There is no a single one parachute in passengers plane?
Even so, such a badass mercenary as Natalia couldn't sync her jump from cargo bay in to the water with Kiritsugu's rocket launch? Autopilot ftw.
Even so why not just land on water? All bees and ghouls will just drown with the plane. Planes are freaking hermetically sealed.
Also. Such a well-known freelancer cannot require Church/Magi help with cleansing the plane? Are you kidding me?


1. Natalia only knows how to fly a single engine Cessna, which is designed for private 1-2 people use. Odds are she probably doesn't know how to operate the autopilot functions on the aircraft. Even then, the aircraft is an Airbus a300 (built from the mid-70's) with no glass cockpit (computerized display). Autopilot feature would be much more primitive and need human assistance to properly control.

2. There is no access to the lower cargo hold from the cockpit. Primary access points lie outside of the cockpit, which means she would have to deal with the ghouls and the bees.

3. Landing an aircraft on water one of the hardest types of emergency landings to perform. Most of the time, the aircraft will break up when in makes contact. It is very rare to see a successful water landing (Hudson River). Most of the time, even trained professionals cannot successfully bring an aircraft to land on water. Such a break up would allow the bees to escape.

4. The FAA nor any other Aviation Regulation group mandates parachutes in commercial airliners. Adding 300 parachutes, each weighting at least 10 pounds would be too heavy for the aircraft. Having only one chute makes little sense. And in the case of an high altitude disaster, passengers will be unable to put a parachute on themselves. A depressurizing cabin will result in less oxygen and possible high winds if it is an explosive decompression. Jumping out of a plane while in flight as well would be more dangerous: 2 giant high speed jet turbines are designed to suck air into them. Anyone jumping out of the front of the plane would have to deal with the engine. If possible everyone would have to exit through the back, which will double the escape time and jeopardize the stability of the aircraft.

Just some food for thought.
 
May 13, 2012 5:08 PM
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Arqentum said:

She was not ready to jump from flight's height because she did not have a parachute.
I am talking about lowering to jump-able height.


In order for the plane to reach a safe jumping height, the airplane would still have to slow to approximately 180 knots (210 mph,) any slower though and the planes risks stalling and crashing. This means Natalia would have to disengage CMD (autopilot), use the throttle instruments, and engage flaps and slats, all outside of the knowledge base of a Cessna user. Even so, it would be impossible to engage any type of autopilot at that altitude. CMD controls are by 100 feet increments.

If see wanted to really escape, she would have to open the port cockpit window, leave the controls, nudge her way out of a very small window, hope she is not ingested by the left engine. And risk hitting the water at over 200 miles per hours.

I don't know if nasuverse can keep her alive though.

Now don't forget that if she jumps out, the planes breaks up in the water, bees will escape and you can say good bye to New York and the Eastside of the Continental US.
 
May 13, 2012 5:12 PM

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wenchance said:

If see wanted to really escape, she would have to open the port cockpit window, leave the controls, nudge her way out of a very small window, hope she is not ingested by the left engine. And risk hitting the water at over 200 miles per hours.

I don't know if nasuverse can keep her alive though.


If she could survive that then she would become a Heroic Spirit for sure after her death.I mean come on that would be really awesome.
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May 13, 2012 5:14 PM
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wenchance said:
Arqentum said:

She was not ready to jump from flight's height because she did not have a parachute.
I am talking about lowering to jump-able height.


In order for the plane to reach a safe jumping height, the airplane would still have to slow to approximately 180 knots (210 mph,) any slower though and the planes risks stalling and crashing. This means Natalia would have to disengage CMD (autopilot), use the throttle instruments, and engage flaps and slats, all outside of the knowledge base of a Cessna user. Even so, it would be impossible to engage any type of autopilot at that altitude. CMD controls are by 100 feet increments.

If see wanted to really escape, she would have to open the port cockpit window, leave the controls, nudge her way out of a very small window, hope she is not ingested by the left engine. And risk hitting the water at over 200 miles per hours.

I don't know if nasuverse can keep her alive though.

Now don't forget that if she jumps out, the planes breaks up in the water, bees will escape and you can say good bye to New York and the Eastside of the Continental US.
It really is amazing to how far fans would go to hate on "in the spot and logical" choices just because they hate a character or just don't want to ccept the character was in a "no way out" situation. Nasu would probably find some way to bullshit his way out of it but Gen is more in the "let's kill her" side of writing.

 
May 13, 2012 5:18 PM

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Holy crap, he killed Natalia, I don't want that, I liked her. It seems like he has lost it, those empty eyes make it even worse.

I would've liked to see how the hell she made it into the cockpit, did she use vents or what, no way she got past 300 ghouls without a scratch.
Modified by Zhou, May 14, 2012 3:16 AM
 
May 13, 2012 5:37 PM

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she smiled in the end....
DaisyDuck3008 said:
"Hey Kerry, what do you want to be when you grow up?"

"I.......


It breaks my heart when I think about it...^_____^

5/5


 
May 13, 2012 6:37 PM
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Zhou said:
Holy crap, he killed Natalia, I don't want that, I liker her. It seems like he has lost it, those empty eyes make it even worse.

I would've liked to see how the hell she made it into the cockpit, did she use vents or what, no way she got past 300 ghouls without a scratch.
Oh I dunno, maybe that's why her clothes were full of blood and she seemed wore out?

 
May 13, 2012 6:54 PM

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Airing this episode on Mother's Day. Well played.
 
May 13, 2012 7:10 PM

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This episode was incredible. The scene when he shoots the rocket was AMAZING in all possible ways, god dammit. Epic chills occured, and I got teary after.

10/5
 
May 13, 2012 8:06 PM

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i got manly tear watching this ep
 
May 13, 2012 10:20 PM
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I think his "mom" can escpe from the plane throught the window(no bee inside that place) when the plane landed, then only bomb the plane. poor "mom"... you taught him how to kill, but not taught him how to save one's life
 
May 13, 2012 10:41 PM

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LunarMoon said:
We were actually shown the relationship between Natalia and Kiritsugu through visual motifs, such as the scene in which she corrected his holding of the gun, and the portion with the extended guitar BGM did a great job of non-orally communicating information that the novel simply narrated to us.


this may be over analysing, but if you pay attention where he pointed the gun in that scene, it's natalia who made him aim at her head. It's as if to illustrate that it's her teachings that made him being able to kill her.

again, it may be just me thinking too much.
 
May 13, 2012 11:37 PM
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kelvinchan said:
I think his "mom" can escpe from the plane throught the window(no bee inside that place) when the plane landed, then only bomb the plane. poor "mom"... you taught him how to kill, but not taught him how to save one's life


Possibly a good idea, but try explaining to Air Traffic Control, the NYPD and the other institutions that you have a plane full of zombie like things with diseased bees and I have a friend with an ground to air missile launcher and that he will take out the plane once I land the plane.

And even then, bomb the plane on the tarmac, odds are one bee may escape. And in a densely populated region like NYC? Sounds like a party.

If you really want to stretch it, Natalia would have to 1. successfully land a wide body jet at 200 miles an hour. 2. Escape out of the cockpit window and fall 30ish feet (survivable, happened coincidentally on an Air France flight) 3. Smoke the cabin to neutralize the bees (possibly some apparatus through the cockpit window) 4. With a hazmat suit, enter the cabin and systematically burn the aircraft to the ground. (Don't forget to de-fuel the plane)

I'm really over-doing this, but hey it's fun.
 
May 14, 2012 12:17 AM

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....Almost dropped...

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May 14, 2012 1:05 AM

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Real gem of an episode, had some serious manly tears the toward the end of this and not felt so involved in fate/zero's story period. More episodes like this please.

10/5
Modified by ReasonDesu, May 14, 2012 1:12 AM
 
May 14, 2012 1:58 AM

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Is it just me or I saw Natalia smiling in her last moment of life ?
 
May 14, 2012 2:48 AM

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Last 2 episode were boring and completely random. I know they are mportant for future episodes blah blah but they were throw into a middle of a war without any reasoning! It would have been much better if they were shown when it got relevant or at the beginning of the season. Or at least they could have made it like Kiritsugu recalling them and thrown in random adult Kiritsugu parts. This just feels as if they forgot about them but needed to have them aired before the ending so they threw them in when they remembered about them. About the boring part, slow pacing and I don't give a damn about Kiritsugu. Otherwise they were very good.

Anyway, I guess it was good to see that flashback for Kiritsugu's charatcer development (although I don't see any that couldn't be summed up in "and he became a cold murderer"). Natalia was cool and if nothing else, these epsiodes weren't a waste of time because of her. TBH I kinda hoped flashbacks would change my opinion about Kerry but at this point, I really doubt anything can do it. He maybe a unique lead with supposedly "tragic past" but all of that "tragic" part was his fault. I really can't feel sorry for him. Those were his decisions, I admit he had to destroy the plane but it was still his decision. He just keeps justifying it just to feel better about it. His charatcer is extremely flat. He does the same thing over and over and justifies it over and over and that happens over and over. On top he refuses to face his doings and acts as if the whole world wronged him. I just can't bring myself to feel the least bit bad about him. Or at least care a little. Worst lead I've ever seen. It's not even fun hating him because everything he does hurts himself. But I can't feel sorry for him because those things are only his decisions and no one elses. The fact that until now he felt more like a side character doesn't help it either.
 
May 14, 2012 3:19 AM

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Leon-Gun said:
Zhou said:
Holy crap, he killed Natalia, I don't want that, I liker her. It seems like he has lost it, those empty eyes make it even worse.

I would've liked to see how the hell she made it into the cockpit, did she use vents or what, no way she got past 300 ghouls without a scratch.
Oh I dunno, maybe that's why her clothes were full of blood and she seemed wore out?

But there was almost no blood on her, a bit on her face and her breast, that's it.
 
May 14, 2012 3:22 AM

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HikaruIzumi said:
Anyway, I guess it was good to see that flashback for Kiritsugu's charatcer development (although I don't see any that couldn't be summed up in "and he became a cold murderer"). Natalia was cool and if nothing else, these epsiodes weren't a waste of time because of her. TBH I kinda hoped flashbacks would change my opinion about Kerry but at this point, I really doubt anything can do it. He maybe a unique lead with supposedly "tragic past" but all of that "tragic" part was his fault. I really can't feel sorry for him. Those were his decisions, I admit he had to destroy the plane but it was still his decision. He just keeps justifying it just to feel better about it. His charatcer is extremely flat. He does the same thing over and over and justifies it over and over and that happens over and over. On top he refuses to face his doings and acts as if the whole world wronged him. I just can't bring myself to feel the least bit bad about him. Or at least care a little. Worst lead I've ever seen. It's not even fun hating him because everything he does hurts himself. But I can't feel sorry for him because those things are only his decisions and no one elses. The fact that until now he felt more like a side character doesn't help it either.


I can't fault you to not watch things properly since it's clear you weren't paying much attention.

I think the placement is fine since you have to put it after that stare in ep16 when Saber questioned his belief. If you put it earlier than it won't make much sense. Putting in at the beginning of the season only kills the impact, since it's very clear that the story want us to see his ruthless side first before getting to know his true nature. If it's there before ep1 then all we know is "awww" and won't question his methods. By making us feel disgusted with the way he operates first it creates a conflicting feeling when we know the reason behind it. Again, I am able to see it since I already knew that he is the main character so I paid extra attention to how he's portrayed since episode 1.

The fun thing about style of tragedy Urobuchi is good at is that he set the world up so that the character only has one way out, and they often ends up worse due to that logical decision. They make the best decision possible, but it always turn out worse than before. Kiritsugu never faults the world, he hates his ideal but he has to follow it through. He embodies the belief to the point that he goes beyond what normal characters cannot, and that's what makes him interesting. You can't argue against the fact that he had been choosing the best outcome possible by his knowledge. yes, that kind of thinking has its flaws, but that makes a tragedy more tasty. He is quite a complex character with two different sides of him, the stoic side and the human side, constantly in conflict throughout the series so far. Although most of the time we only see the efficient "mage killer" side of him, the two times he broke down showed that he has a very emotional side.

It's easy to call a character flat when you missed out a lot of the little details.
 
May 14, 2012 3:23 AM

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HikaruIzumi said:
Last 2 episode were boring and completely random. I know they are mportant for future episodes blah blah but they were throw into a middle of a war without any reasoning!


Maybe they were following the novel?I'm just saying....

I like how everyone becomes an amazing director when they dont like an episode.

HikaruIzumi said:
On top he refuses to face his doings and acts as if the whole world wronged him.


Uh how about the end of this ep?And he never feels better for his actions you should have noticed that.The fact that he seeks the miracle of the grail is to reach his goal and finaly feel a little bit batter.

And these eps didnt have the purpose to make anybody like his character or actions but just to see why he ended up like that.

Killing Natalia made him feel like shit but allowing the airplane land would be the same.

Doesnt anyone think that having a character wishing for world peace without knowing his past and what he had to sacrifice is the stupidest thing ever?
Might as well watch a Beauty contest were everyone wishes for world peace and a world without hunger....
Modified by ssjokg, May 14, 2012 4:09 AM
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May 14, 2012 4:59 AM
Acid flashback

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AceIII said:
Is it just me or I saw Natalia smiling in her last moment of life ?


Yeah, I saw that too. I think she knew it was coming, otherwise she wouldn't have had the conversation she had with him.

Now I get Kiritsugu's attitude and behaviour. No wonder he can't take Saber seriosuly.
"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii

There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov

 
May 14, 2012 5:30 AM

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I haven't yet read the Light Novel, but judging from the lines in the preview:

the actually full effect of this mini arc doesn't come until the next episode.

I have a feeling that those two episodes are asking you to understand, while the next one will make you sympathise. If what I'm thinking is correct, then the flow on effect will be massive next episode.
Modified by jeroz, May 14, 2012 5:34 AM
 
May 14, 2012 5:37 AM

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HikaruIzumi said:
Last 2 episode were boring and completely random. I know they are mportant for future episodes blah blah but they were throw into a middle of a war without any reasoning! It would have been much better if they were shown when it got relevant or at the beginning of the season. Or at least they could have made it like Kiritsugu recalling them and thrown in random adult Kiritsugu parts. This just feels as if they forgot about them but needed to have them aired before the ending so they threw them in when they remembered about them. About the boring part, slow pacing and I don't give a damn about Kiritsugu. Otherwise they were very good.


If they show it way at the beginning of the anime, it might be even more irrelevant. Because it's like "I didn't even know who this character is(therefore not interested)." And also, I somehow feel more sympathy towards Kiritsugu and even admire him than if compared to showing it at the beginning of the season.

Kiritsugu had closed his emotions and his past. He didn't want to talk about it when Saber questioned him. Therefore it's probably highly impossible for him to think about it, especially halfway during the Grail War.

Of course, people who don't find Kiritsugu interesting will find it boring, and I don't really disagree with it. But it's probably because more people would find these two episode interesting, than those who doesn't.

I think that Kiritsugu is going to do something really cruel(again). Therefore these episode are shown at this time. So instead of feeling disgusted by what he did, we might feel sympathy instead.
(I didn't read the novel or any other thing, it's just my opinion.)
 
May 14, 2012 5:48 AM
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ssjokg said:
HikaruIzumi said:
Last 2 episode were boring and completely random. I know they are mportant for future episodes blah blah but they were throw into a middle of a war without any reasoning!


Maybe they were following the novel?I'm just saying....

I like how everyone becomes an amazing director when they dont like an episode.

HikaruIzumi said:
On top he refuses to face his doings and acts as if the whole world wronged him.


Uh how about the end of this ep?And he never feels better for his actions you should have noticed that.The fact that he seeks the miracle of the grail is to reach his goal and finaly feel a little bit batter.

And these eps didnt have the purpose to make anybody like his character or actions but just to see why he ended up like that.

Killing Natalia made him feel like shit but allowing the airplane land would be the same.

Doesnt anyone think that having a character wishing for world peace without knowing his past and what he had to sacrifice is the stupidest thing ever?
Might as well watch a Beauty contest were everyone wishes for world peace and a world without hunger....
I know right, everyone seems to think all of the material is filler when the gist of it was in the novel itself, and only a "little" earlier. Considering the director actually made a big deal at the start of the season announcing that they WERE going to add Kiritsugu's backstory (and not just dispatch it in an OVA) it means that some fans wanted it. Maybe it's just a MAL thing.

 
May 14, 2012 6:43 AM

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I've been wondering about all the Kiritsugu-hate and people saying how he's boring and irrelevant character... Sure, I don't mind people hating on him and all, each have their own opinions.
But since those people like this anime despite that, who is there to like in the cast anymore? I can't think of any other interesting and likeable characters other than Kiritsugu and Iri in this anymore, so who do the Kiritsugu-haters like? Don't tell me "Kirei"... Difficult to find more boring and uninteresting character than him.
Well, I guess Saber or Rider are candidates but they are there just to fight for the Grail and to get what they want, I don't really find anything specially interesting in it..

Anyway, awesome episode! One of the best in the whole series so far, including the 1st season. Finally we learnt of the tear-jerking past of Kiritsugu and his reasons for why he is like that.
I would like to see more of his past, specially between Iri and him, but I don't think we're gonna get that...
 
May 14, 2012 7:16 AM

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Pyr0 said:
I would like to see more of his past, specially between Iri and him, but I don't think we're gonna get that...
Let me point you to the drama CDs included in the BD box of the first season. That's about what we'll get about them. Get them at the usual sites.
 
May 14, 2012 8:04 AM

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Pyr0 said:
I've been wondering about all the Kiritsugu-hate and people saying how he's boring and irrelevant character... Sure, I don't mind people hating on him and all, each have their own opinions.
But since those people like this anime despite that, who is there to like in the cast anymore? I can't think of any other interesting and likeable characters other than Kiritsugu and Iri in this anymore, so who do the Kiritsugu-haters like? Don't tell me "Kirei"... Difficult to find more boring and uninteresting character than him.
Well, I guess Saber or Rider are candidates but they are there just to fight for the Grail and to get what they want, I don't really find anything specially interesting in it..

Anyway, awesome episode! One of the best in the whole series so far, including the 1st season. Finally we learnt of the tear-jerking past of Kiritsugu and his reasons for why he is like that.
I would like to see more of his past, specially between Iri and him, but I don't think we're gonna get that...


Saber have the same path as Kiritsugu,and she is ready to continue with her ideals,Rider is her counterpart as a King (Gilgamesh has some of work in this too),and his relationship with Waver is very important for the development about Waver character later(i can't say much about this because spoilers),Kirei is the counterpart about Kiritsugu Ideals,he only seek his sense on life with evil,even if this mean kiling his loved ones,and his questions about his distorted existence,his rare existence is why i'm interest about his character(And other things i can't say again because spoilers), well,about the rest,just wait and see.
 
May 14, 2012 8:05 AM

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Natalia ;_;

Pyr0 said:
But since those people like this anime despite that, who is there to like in the cast anymore? I can't think of any other interesting and likeable characters other than Kiritsugu and Iri in this anymore, so who do the Kiritsugu-haters like? Don't tell me "Kirei"... Difficult to find more boring and uninteresting character than him.

I love everyone except for Kiritsugu, Zouken (obviously) and Diarmuid. Seriously, which part of Kirei is boring? He's one of the most unique and well-developed characters in the series. You can enjoy a show without liking the main character (hello, Shirou), you know.
 
May 14, 2012 8:12 AM

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ssjokg said:

Maybe they were following the novel?I'm just saying....

I like how everyone becomes an amazing director when they dont like an episode.

Just because they follow the original doesn't mean it's immediatelly perfect. Maybe it doesn't matter to you but to me it destroys the fluency of the war.

I like how everyone criticises someone's opinion just because they disagree. I never said I could do it better. I never dissed the director. I simply said that it kills the pace of the main story. Not to mention that I never said I didn't like it, I just found it boring. This episode was gold just like every until now but since I don't care about Kerry, I was bound to find this boring. Just my subjective opinion.

ssjokg said:

Killing Natalia made him feel like shit but allowing the airplane land would be the same.

Doesnt anyone think that having a character wishing for world peace without knowing his past and what he had to sacrifice is the stupidest thing ever?
Might as well watch a Beauty contest were everyone wishes for world peace and a world without hunger....


I'm not sure if that really belonged to me, because if so, you didn't read my post. I wrote that I agree that destroying the plane was the only option, I also wrote that it was nice to have his flashback shown. I just found it boring because I don't care about him, that's all.

jeroz said:

I can't fault you to not watch things properly since it's clear you weren't paying much attention.


No, I really don't consider reading into main character's mind for something that's not there not paying attention. Kiritsugu was never portrayed as if he didn't like doing it and the way how he killed his father doesn't help it either. He was eager to kill him for "greater good". He is convinced that what he's doing is right because it's for a good goal. The hints we saw that he's ashamed/regrets doing it are subconscious (the glare he gave Saber, looking away from Keyneth), what means that he has feelings of guilt but he decides to ignore them. He isn't genuinely sorry for those things he keeps justifying it for himself to shut up his consciousness. Just like we saw at the end of this episode. While he feels bad and guilty for killing Natalie, he "kills" those feelings because he wants to believe it's right. If he truly, consciously felt bad about it and admited it was wrong, he would want to change. He doesn't, why? Because it's his way of achieving world peace. See what I mean? He just keeps doing horrible things by saying it's right but then he feels guilty about it and tortures himself inside. I can't sympathise with him for his ways but since he punishes himself it's not even fun hating him.

jeroz said:

I think the placement is fine since you have to put it after that stare in ep16 when Saber questioned his belief. If you put it earlier than it won't make much sense. Putting in at the beginning of the season only kills the impact, since it's very clear that the story want us to see his ruthless side first before getting to know his true nature. If it's there before ep1 then all we know is "awww" and won't question his methods. By making us feel disgusted with the way he operates first it creates a conflicting feeling when we know the reason behind it. Again, I am able to see it since I already knew that he is the main character so I paid extra attention to how he's portrayed since episode 1.

I actually disagree with this. To me, the main character is a medium that connects me with plot. And for that you actually have to know him in order to fully understand what he's doing (unless the whole plot is driven by main charatcer's background, such as Lain, what this isn't). I'm not talking about sympathising with him, I'm talking about understanding. If this was at the beginning of the season, I would understand what and why he did to Keyneth. I do understand him better afte those flashbacks but to me they came way too late to make me care about him. I could have liked him more if this came before. That's my point. But I'm not saying everyone fels that way, I'm usually the odd one out in everything, I was just saying my opnion. :-D

Pyr0 said:
I've been wondering about all the Kiritsugu-hate and people saying how he's boring and irrelevant character... Sure, I don't mind people hating on him and all, each have their own opinions.
But since those people like this anime despite that, who is there to like in the cast anymore? I can't think of any other interesting and likeable characters other than Kiritsugu and Iri in this anymore, so who do the Kiritsugu-haters like? Don't tell me "Kirei"... Difficult to find more boring and uninteresting character than him.
Well, I guess Saber or Rider are candidates but they are there just to fight for the Grail and to get what they want, I don't really find anything specially interesting in it..


I find Kiritsugu boring and like Kirei, you find Kirei boring and like Kiritsugu. See how it works? You ask who people like if not Kiritsugu. People actually might like those you don't just as much as they dislike someone you like. There's also Gilgamesh, Kariya, Iri and Berserker among the more popular characters. Although, I do agree that most of people like Rider and Saber. There's really not much room to dislike them unless you find their ideals dumb but that's possible with all characters.
Modified by SuiNoByakko, May 14, 2012 8:23 AM
 
May 14, 2012 8:31 AM

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Kiritsugu's past has been very impressive and has let me stunned. I love how they have stop in the middle of the war and are showing us Kiritsugu's past and the answer to his behavior/actions in the present. Love the BGM used when Natalia was in the plane taking out the mage. Overall what an amazing episode... 10 out of 10.
 
May 14, 2012 9:28 AM

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And so, this completes Kiritsugu's backstory segment, huh. The man is a naturally talented assassin, as Natalia attested to. Having to kill someone who was "family" again, and breaking down after, however, also demonstrated that he retained some of his humanity and was not reduced to a mere killing machine by his early experiences. Oh, the irony that this episode aired just in time for Mother's Day. Oh wait, maybe it was intentional...
 
May 14, 2012 10:13 AM

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KIRITSUGU!

Oh man... I'm left speechless once again.

Natalia and Kiritsugu's entire conversation at the end was very touching but at the same time, it felt like they both knew what was about to happen. Also, Natalia smiling at the end further supports that. She even stated a few minutes prior that Kiritsugu has the ability to shoot while disregarding his personal feelings and emotions "temporarily", no matter how strong.

When Kiritsugu finally broke down, I felt like I was breaking down with him! He killed his own father, and now his mother. But this time, it wasn't so simple. She openly stated her love for him and the intention of quitting her lifestyle after the mission. But Kiritsugu knew that the risk of that plane full off ghouls landing in New York (an overpopulated city) could create a great Crisis. He learned from his past mistake with Shirley. I understand the reasoning, but it still kills inside.

Hang in there Emiya Kiritsugu.

10/10
 
May 14, 2012 11:44 AM

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A good day for mother otakus. :)

So that's how Kiritsugu became Justice. Very nice to finally find out.
Dutch anime blogger with a love for Ikuhara's antics and proper storytelling.
 
May 14, 2012 11:45 AM

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A mother's day ep. Well played.

a good ending would be:

Natalia lands the plane, escapes through the cockpit's canopy window; By then, Kiritsugu blows the plane with the RPG.

But realizing how the earlier episodes had all sorts of tragedy in them, I predicted she'd die. But now through Kiritsugu's hands. D:
Modified by Seiji_S, May 14, 2012 11:57 AM



thx 2 Rinjii 4 d sigy^^
 
May 14, 2012 11:54 AM

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HikaruIzumi said:

No, I really don't consider reading into main character's mind for something that's not there not paying attention. Kiritsugu was never portrayed as if he didn't like doing it and the way how he killed his father doesn't help it either. He was eager to kill him for "greater good".


“I don’t deserve to hold that child,” was Kiritsugu’s first line in the anime, during the prologue of episode one, letting us know right away that he was filled with self-loathing. From then on, the most that we ever got from him was dispassionate professionalism whenever he was performing his assassination duties as a Master. Ryunosuke obviously enjoyed killing people, but with Kiritsugu, it always just appeared to be a dirty job.

He is convinced that what he's doing is right because it's for a good goal. The hints we saw that he's ashamed/regrets doing it are subconscious (the glare he gave Saber, looking away from Keyneth), what means that he has feelings of guilt but he decides to ignore them. He isn't genuinely sorry for those things he keeps justifying it for himself to shut up his consciousness. Just like we saw at the end of this episode. While he feels bad and guilty for killing Natalie, he "kills" those feelings because he wants to believe it's right. If he truly, consciously felt bad about it and admited it was wrong, he would want to change. He doesn't, why?


Why would he stop killing people if experience has taught him that it allows him to save dozens, if not billions? There are plenty of soldiers that feel bad about killing people, and even go into Post-Traumatic Shock, but it doesn’t mean that they’re going to stop doing their job if the alternative would perceivably be worse or if they believe that it’s a job that needs to be done.


I find Kiritsugu boring and like Kirei, you find Kirei boring and like Kiritsugu. See how it works? You ask who people like if not Kiritsugu. People actually might like those you don't just as much as they dislike someone you like. There's also Gilgamesh, Kariya, Iri and Berserker among the more popular characters. Although, I do agree that most of people like Rider and Saber. There's really not much room to dislike them unless you find their ideals dumb but that's possible with all characters.


Agreed. The great thing about Fate/Zero is that the author doesn't focus on the primary characters to the disadvantage of the rest of the cast, as in say, Naruto. You can actively dislike the main character and still the enjoy the show, since there are other developed characters that you can root for.

Rikuunojuu said:
The only thing I disliked in this episode was Kiritsugu's voice as a teenager/young adult, it was totally unfitting.


I also found it a bit jarring, but it was either that or going with his voice as a child, and I have somewhat of a rule against that practice being done with male characters that are fifteen years old or over, since most boys have hit puberty by that point. It kind of reminds me of the whole issue that someone had with a 20-year old Batman being done with Kevin Conroy’s deep voice, when Conroy, himself, has probably had that voice since his teens. It’s all in perception, and deep, stereotypically masculine voices make male character sound older.
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
May 14, 2012 12:01 PM

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Nice ep, but I expected to see main story instead of flashbacks
 
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