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Poll: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 6 Discussion


May 13, 2012 7:19 AM
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The risk of the bees escaping from the plane along with Natalia is much higher than the risk of the bees escaping from that missile.

Kiritsugu had to make a choice.... and he didn't take any chances.

It's not about Natalia's survival. It's all about the bees.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
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May 13, 2012 7:23 AM

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Xayoz said:


It's probably a bit rude from me to point that out but...
Man, ssjokg, you must really be the biggest fanboy of Kiritsugu.
I swear - you have replied to about every single post, that has bashed him for whatever reason, in the entirety of F/Z discussion threads. This is getting somewhat amusing :D


I dont actually agree with the ideal of killing the ones you love if it saves other people(HF Shirou is way better than Kiritsugu in ideals).What I hate is people finding reasons to bash those two eps because they were flashbacks.Or why didnt they think any other way to solve the plane incident when there was no other way unless Natalia was an almighty magus.

@Arqentum.
Yeah we all are trolls that dont want to agree with you....facepalm
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May 13, 2012 7:25 AM

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I swear, this Arqentum guys loves hollywood/anime physics so much that he's making tonnes of assumptions.

Natalia already said it herself that she can't jump off, and was not prepared for skydives. Go watch the episode again before making stupid arguments.
 
May 13, 2012 7:26 AM

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She wanted to land in NY because it was safer that jumping. Land (is safer than) > Jump > Beign rocket launched.

Chances for bees to survive from explosion near the water is absolutely the same (at very least, or even less) as their chances to survive at original height.
And we are assuming that Natalia do not know Time alter: Double Accel magecraft.

jeroz said:
I swear, this Arqentum guys loves anime/hollywood physics so much that he's making tonnes of assumptions.

Natalia already said herself that she can't jump off, and was not prepared for skydives. Go watch the episode again.


She was not ready to jump from flight's height because she did not have a parachute.
I am talking about lowering to jump-able height.

And please stop with yours anime/hollywood physics cliche. It is wrong. I make assumption based on knowledge of nasuverse and Natalia's strengths.
Modified by Arqentum, May 13, 2012 7:31 AM
 
May 13, 2012 7:27 AM
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Some messed up logic he got there. I guess that's how Shirou came into being, but you know, with pussiness mounted on top.
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May 13, 2012 7:29 AM

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ssjokg said:

I dont actually agree with the ideal of killing the ones you love if it saves other people(HF Shirou is way better than Kiritsugu in ideals).What I hate is people finding reasons to bash those two eps because they were flashbacks.Or why didnt they think any other way to solve the plane incident when there was no other way unless Natalia was an almighty magus

Well. I certainly agree, that bashing on the episodes for being flashbacks is pretty silly.

The plane incident tho. I do believe there could have been some way. Just not with Kiritsugu.

But do continue. :D
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May 13, 2012 7:30 AM

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Arqentum said:
She wanted to land in NY because it was safer that jumping. Land (is safer than) > Jump > Beign rocket launched.


yeah, let's all try the most risky method, because it makes more sense this way. She already stated that she wanted to live, so why ask her to attempt something impossible?

and no, she doesn't not have the time magic.
 
May 13, 2012 7:31 AM

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Arqentum said:


1) You refocused to your own sophistry from original point using another sophistry.
I would not even argue about this "master without deep reasons and full-scaled flashback that does not want grail is a background filler" logic.

2) Khem ... are you comparing Matou family walking failure, that never ever in his existence have learned a single bit of magic called Matou Kariya with a powerful well-known mercenary?
I hope my question is self-explanatory and i will not see such terrible and awful post anymore.
Church can cover up a Grail War, what is the problem covering up a single plane in an airport during daylight comparing to that?

As you may Not know, Natalia is a mercenary that:

hunts those magi who received a Sealing Designation and sells their Crests to the Mage's Association.


Falling into the water from over twenty stories up would have been equivalent to impacting a concrete surface from the same height. In addition, the chance of landing the airliner into the water, without having it explode into shrapnel, would have been extremely low.

Arquentum, if you've read Fate Stay Night, then you probably know that reinforcement magic isn't anywhere near strong enough to allow a magus to survive such an impact.

Heaven's Feel Spoiler


There's no way that a mere human, like Natalia, could pull something like that off. Her chances of survival are discussed in posts 91 and 92 of this topic and for multiple reasons, it was basically impossible for her to actually survive this situation.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=112221&page=5
Modified by LunarMoon, May 13, 2012 7:36 AM
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May 13, 2012 7:32 AM

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Arqentum said:
She wanted to land in NY because it was safer that jumping. Land (is safer than) > Jump > Beign rocket launched.

Chances for bees to survive from explosion near the water is absolutely the same (at very least, or even less) as their chances to survive at originals height.
And we are assuming that Natalia do not know Time alter: Double Accel magecraft.


Which is the Emiya's family magecraft?You are the one trolling here not me

"I make assumption based on knowledge of nasuverse"
what knowledge?At least try using the wiki a little bit better
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May 13, 2012 7:39 AM

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She is no mere human, she is a mixed blood. Half-succubus with enhancement.

As said in the link you posted (thanks for that)


tl;dr: Natalia would only land at the airport if that was her only option left. If there was a 1% chance of surviving an ocean landing, she would have taken it.


He did not gave her that chance. That is the point. Not ocean landing, but jumping. As i said before:

Land (is safer than) > Jump > Water land > Beign rocket launched.

The 2 options she saw was Land and Water Land. Kiritsugu did not gave her any chance.

ssjokg said:

"I make assumption based on knowledge of nasuverse"
what knowledge?At least try using the wiki a little bit better


Congratulations, troll. You pointed me a small mistake. But not close enough.
I never assumed she knew time alter and made zero points involving it. L2R.
Modified by Arqentum, May 13, 2012 7:43 AM
 
May 13, 2012 7:42 AM

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ssjokg said:
At least try using the wiki a little bit better
The wiki is filled to the brim with errors and inconsistencies. Keep in mind that Nasu also retcons his works extremely often, so any examples of "oh he and she can do this" will likely be irrelevant in the future. If you want a somewhat infamous example of this, look no further than the KnK!Shiki power level circlejerk.
 
May 13, 2012 7:47 AM

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Arqentum said:
She is no mere human, she is a mixed blood. Half-succubus with enhancement.


Doesn't matter. Unlike the character that I brought up earlier, Natalia isn't Servant-level. The impact would turn her into a fine, red mist, and I'm doubtful that even the more powerful characters in the Nausverse could pull it off without the use of a healing factor.


He did not gave her that chance. That is the point. Not ocean landing, but jumping. As i said before:

Land (is safer than) > Jump > Water land > Beign rocket launched.

The 2 options she saw was Land and Water Land. Kiritsugu did not gave her any chance.


What chance was there? Natalia had no idea how she was going to deal with the Ghoul and bee problem, and her inability to deal with that would have resulted in a worldwide epidemic. All it would take is one stray bee, biting someone in the airport, and for that person to hitch a flight to London or Tokyo. As Kiritsugu mentioned, the death toll would be unimaginable.
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May 13, 2012 7:53 AM

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Zyglrox said:
ssjokg said:
At least try using the wiki a little bit better
The wiki is filled to the brim with errors and inconsistencies. Keep in mind that Nasu also retcons his works extremely often, so any examples of "oh he and she can do this" will likely be irrelevant in the future. If you want a somewhat infamous example of this, look no further than the KnK!Shiki power level circlejerk.


Which is why I question his knowledge.
If the Shiki part is about the fate/extra 99 servants thing,I thought that was way ridiculous.Even Arcuied is in the game .I didnt think people take that game seriously?

@Arqentum your words:"And we are assuming that Natalia do not know Time alter: Double Accel magecraft"
you should know that it is impossible for her to know Time alter.What do you think people would thought when you throw that here when you support her chances of survival while we dont eh?
And I thought the argument was about Natalia surviving without the death count going sky high.If we are to exclude Kiritsugu from that, this discussion is pointless.
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May 13, 2012 8:02 AM

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I do wonder about the water landing. You know, most passenger jets are designed with that possibility in mind. That's why you get life jackets under your seats. With her actually being in the cockpit and perhaps possessing some defensive magic, her chances of survival would have been pretty damn high. In fact, that would have been the most logical course of action for her to take.

Not sure what was her plan for the airport tho. Maybe seal up / destroy the plane, while Association/Church sent someone to handle the situation? Some further casualties would have been likely tho.
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May 13, 2012 8:09 AM
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Shooting down the plane was such a Kiritsugu thing to do.

"SHE SHOULD HAVE JUMPED OUTSIDE THE PLANE AND USED HER PLANE NO LANDING JUTSU!!!!"

some of you have ADD or watch too many action movies or something
 
May 13, 2012 8:11 AM

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Xayoz said:
I do wonder about the water landing. You know, most passenger jets are designed with that possibility in mind. That's why you get life jackets under your seats. With her actually being in the cockpit and perhaps possessing some defensive magic, her chances of survival would have been pretty damn high. In fact, that would have been the most logical course of action for her to take.


I dont know about the design so I wont argue about that but the story takes place somewhere in the middle of 90's.I dont know if airplanes were made like that at that time.If it's true then Natalia didnt know about it or she didnt think the water landing would be successful due to lack of experience with passenger planes like this....
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May 13, 2012 8:30 AM

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Its a really good episode imo..
at the same time a really bad episode (Natalia Dying (T_T) WHY?????????????!!!!)...

Then again makes you think back as you can see clearly just when the plane exploded and the camera was focused on Natalia's face, she actually (went from :( <-- to ---> :) smiled thinking Kiri did the right thing or else if Natalia successfully landed, stayed alive )but ended up making New York a Ghoul's City, she would've killed Kiritsugu..

But yes if you re watch the last part and look at her Mouth, she smiled....

Still it sucks that she died (T_T)..









Modified by T-K-x_, May 13, 2012 8:47 AM
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May 13, 2012 8:41 AM

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ssjokg said:

If the Shiki part is about the fate/extra 99 servants thing,I thought that was way ridiculous.Even Arcuied is in the game .I didnt think people take that game seriously?


 
May 13, 2012 8:45 AM
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Again, I have to reiterate that the destruction of the bees is more important than Natalia's life for Kiritsugu. And I agree.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
May 13, 2012 8:50 AM

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Zyglrox said:
ssjokg said:

If the Shiki part is about the fate/extra 99 servants thing,I thought that was way ridiculous.Even Arcuied is in the game .I didnt think people take that game seriously?




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May 13, 2012 9:01 AM

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Sad stuff :/
GensoAsch said:
zimno said:
why....


5/5


Caster is alive O_O

lmfao my thoughts exactly.
 
May 13, 2012 9:13 AM

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Arqentum said:

He did not gave her that chance. That is the point. Not ocean landing, but jumping. As i said before:

Land (is safer than) > Jump > Water land > Beign rocket launched.

The 2 options she saw was Land and Water Land. Kiritsugu did not gave her any chance.

ssjokg said:

"I make assumption based on knowledge of nasuverse"
what knowledge?At least try using the wiki a little bit better


Congratulations, troll. You pointed me a small mistake. But not close enough.
I never assumed she knew time alter and made zero points involving it. L2R.


Sigh, you what to play the assume game? Lets assume.

Situation= Plane full of ghouls and bees which even one has the potential to start a nice little zombie Apocalypse. Natalia was confined to the cockpit and is flying the plane based on experience with a similar model and guidance from control tower.

Land= Highly risky. Anything could happen while trying to get her out of there. Some idiots could open the doors to find out what happened and hello hell.

Jump= As we know she was confined to the cockpit. So no parachutes and the only exit zombie infested. So she would need to break a hole in the wall or destory a window. Now Question people, what happens when you open a door or window in the middle of a airtight plane flying through the air? A vacuum. Which would rip open the door already on it's last legs holding off ghouls and proceed to shoot bees into the atmosphere to unleash hell.

Water land= I admit this is a good alternative. However the person flying the plane is an amateur. Even if she could pull it off it could damage the plane and you know the rest.

Call the mage/church= Natalia is a freelancer. They don't give a shit about her. They would just tell Kiritsugu to blow it up. They would do the same if they arrived on scene.

Rocket launch= Bee's incinerated. Threat destoryed. Least risky.

And yes, you did assume that she had time alter. Otherwise what was the point of mentioning it at all?

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May 13, 2012 9:29 AM

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This episode made me so sad. :(
 
May 13, 2012 9:32 AM

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Jump - parachute = Dead.
Get real folks.
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May 13, 2012 9:40 AM

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damn why didn't he just let her land the plane then escape through the cockpit window then blow up the plane ~ HAPPY END.
 
May 13, 2012 9:54 AM

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnM64N-JH7M
It makes sense people...>_>

@sly777
if they had the time to do that before the airport personnel opens the hatch.All zombie apocalypse scenarios start by that kind of situations.
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May 13, 2012 10:09 AM

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sLy777 said:
damn why didn't he just let her land the plane then escape through the cockpit window then blow up the plane ~ HAPPY END.


HAHA this is what i was thinking exactly. aside from the awkward moment they may have, i don't see anything wrong with that ending!
 
May 13, 2012 10:24 AM

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Excellent episode, although more in-episode justification for shooting down the plane would have been much appreciated. You could argue that it makes sense, but it would've been better if it made more sense. Or I guess Kiritsugu is just that twisted, but that's not really fair either.
 
May 13, 2012 10:45 AM

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ataraxial said:
Or I guess Kiritsugu is just that twisted, but that's not really fair either.

Exactly.
If you see Kiritugu's action from the point of view of someone who believes in" justice" then you can find justification in his actions without more scenes in the anime.

How much he loved her doesnt matter in the face of justice.Even if you end up hating him for that, he still did the right thing.He would be more of a monster if he allowed Natalia to land and cause thousands of deaths.

Now if you believe that the life of someone you love matters more than thousands of people or the world itself, I agree(I wouldnt be able to do what he did) but it isnt more right or wrong than his beliefs/actions.
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May 13, 2012 10:51 AM

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Impressive!!!! 5/5
 
May 13, 2012 10:52 AM

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ssjokg said:
ataraxial said:
Or I guess Kiritsugu is just that twisted, but that's not really fair either.

Exactly.
If you see Kiritugu's action from the point of view of someone who believes in" justice" then you can find justification in his actions without more scenes in the anime.

How much he loved her doesnt matter in the face of justice.Even if you end up hating him for that, he still did the right thing.He would be more of a monster if he allowed Natalia to land and cause thousands of deaths.

Now if you believe that the life of someone you love matters more than thousands of people or the world itself, I agree(I wouldnt be able to do what he did) but it isnt more right or wrong than his beliefs/actions.

No, I meant that the anime should have been more clear in showing that it would have been dangerous for her to land with all the bees onboard. Since she was able to get to the cockpit without much trouble, and the ghouls weren't really doing much in the cabin, it gave the impression that it would have been easy for her to land/escape from the plane without putting anyone else in danger.

If the anime had made the situation more clear, I would have been much happier with the episode.
 
May 13, 2012 11:02 AM

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ataraxial said:
ssjokg said:
ataraxial said:
Or I guess Kiritsugu is just that twisted, but that's not really fair either.

Exactly.
If you see Kiritugu's action from the point of view of someone who believes in" justice" then you can find justification in his actions without more scenes in the anime.

How much he loved her doesnt matter in the face of justice.Even if you end up hating him for that, he still did the right thing.He would be more of a monster if he allowed Natalia to land and cause thousands of deaths.

Now if you believe that the life of someone you love matters more than thousands of people or the world itself, I agree(I wouldnt be able to do what he did) but it isnt more right or wrong than his beliefs/actions.

No, I meant that the anime should have been more clear in showing that it would have been dangerous for her to land with all the bees onboard. Since she was able to get to the cockpit without much trouble, and the ghouls weren't really doing much in the cabin, it gave the impression that it would have been easy for her to land/escape from the plane without putting anyone else in danger.

If the anime had made the situation more clear, I would have been much happier with the episode.


It was way to clear for LN readers like us I dont doubt that, but there were more than enough anime only people here that understood that.Well I wouldnt mind more scenes but I cant say anything for others.
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May 13, 2012 11:05 AM

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sLy777 said:
damn why didn't he just let her land the plane then escape through the cockpit window then blow up the plane ~ HAPPY END.


That is a possible solution. But not really a safe solution.

There are some factors that reducing the success rate of that option :

1. Church or Magi Association won't help a single independent mercenary and taking a risk of zombie outbreak, if they had a much simpler solution (a.k.a "just blow the fu**ng plane!").
2. Setting the entire airport of NEW YORK to act according to the plan must be monstrously hard. With no backing from Church/Magi, what could a single mercenary boy (Kerry) do? Even if Magi is willing to help, I'm betting that it's will be far from easy, since it's that NEW YORK, a normal, busy city. It's not that Fuyuki city that had been prepared for a magi war (where even a Godzilla can show up and nobody outside the town will know anything about that).
3. They didn't have a C4 or any explosive weaponry prepared inside the plane. Kerry have to bring a rocket launcher to airport and shoot it in the public. Hey, police and other authorities in this world exists, you know?
4. Even if no. 3 succeed, I'm betting there would be a good chance of some bee escaping the explosion > Bee could escape in public place = BAD END
5. There's also a chance of failure landing > Bee could escape = BAD END

I can keep my rant, adding more and more possibility of failure if Kerry want to pick that solution. And... Hey, he didn't have any luxury of time to think and plan a better solution, not like us who just sit, watch, and nitpick or troll as free as we want.

Seriously, some people should accept that their nitpicking don't always sound logical to the story.
 
May 13, 2012 11:22 AM

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wakka9ca said:
Again, I have to reiterate that the destruction of the bees is more important than Natalia's life for Kiritsugu. And I agree.
Yeah but I still WTF at the bees being dead and they still come back. I mean clearly we saw Natalia burn some.

BTW these bees are mutated for sure but more than anything the real species of this exists ONLY IN JAPAN! So they took realism and melded in fiction. EXCELLENT! Very well done. Indeed the largest bees like that are only found in Japan.

Another thing I don't get is WTF with the crest than POOF mage is dead bleeding out. Now WTF is that magic? WTF it came from? Who taught her that? What element is it? You know TONS of questions or questionable scenes.

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May 13, 2012 11:26 AM

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ssjokg said:
It was way to clear for LN readers like us I dont doubt that, but there were more than enough anime only people here that understood that.Well I wouldnt mind more scenes but I cant say anything for others.

Heck, not even a scene, but just one more well-crafted line of thought/dialogue from Kiritsugu would have been enough to make it clear that it would really put a lot of people at risk.

zeroyuki92 said:
sLy777 said:
damn why didn't he just let her land the plane then escape through the cockpit window then blow up the plane ~ HAPPY END.


That is a possible solution. But not really a safe solution.

There are some factors that reducing the success rate of that option :

1. Church or Magi Association won't help a single independent mercenary and taking a risk of zombie outbreak, if they had a much simpler solution (a.k.a "just blow the fu**ng plane!").
2. Setting the entire airport of NEW YORK to act according to the plan must be monstrously hard. With no backing from Church/Magi, what could a single mercenary boy (Kerry) do? Even if Magi is willing to help, I'm betting that it's will be far from easy, since it's that NEW YORK, a normal, busy city. It's not that Fuyuki city that had been prepared for a magi war (where even a Godzilla can show up and nobody outside the town will know anything about that).
3. They didn't have a C4 or any explosive weaponry prepared inside the plane. Kerry have to bring a rocket launcher to airport and shoot it in the public. Hey, police and other authorities in this world exists, you know?
4. Even if no. 3 succeed, I'm betting there would be a good chance of some bee escaping the explosion > Bee could escape in public place = BAD END
5. There's also a chance of failure landing > Bee could escape = BAD END

I can keep my rant, adding more and more possibility of failure if Kerry want to pick that solution. And... Hey, he didn't have any luxury of time to think and plan a better solution, not like us who just sit, watch, and nitpick or troll as free as we want.

Seriously, some people should accept that their nitpicking don't always sound logical to the story.

Your analysis makes sense on all fronts, but you have to admit that the anime could've done a better job making it clearer so that everyone watching could appreciate the risks involved. The anime made it seem like Natalia had things more or less under control and could have landed the plane safely, which is a bit of a misrepresentation.
 
May 13, 2012 11:28 AM

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Yumekichi11 said:
wakka9ca said:
Again, I have to reiterate that the destruction of the bees is more important than Natalia's life for Kiritsugu. And I agree.
Yeah but I still WTF at the bees being dead and they still come back. I mean clearly we saw Natalia burn some.

BTW these bees are mutated for sure but more than anything the real species of this exists ONLY IN JAPAN! So they took realism and melded in fiction. EXCELLENT! Very well done. Indeed the largest bees like that are only found in Japan.

Another thing I don't get is WTF with the crest than POOF mage is dead bleeding out. Now WTF is that magic? WTF it came from? Who taught her that? What element is it? You know TONS of questions or questionable scenes.

The other bees came out of the mage's body - they stated this explicitly in the episode.
The spell isn't really that important. It caused instant death, and that's all that really matters.
 
May 13, 2012 11:34 AM

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ataraxial said:
Yumekichi11 said:
wakka9ca said:
Again, I have to reiterate that the destruction of the bees is more important than Natalia's life for Kiritsugu. And I agree.
Yeah but I still WTF at the bees being dead and they still come back. I mean clearly we saw Natalia burn some.

BTW these bees are mutated for sure but more than anything the real species of this exists ONLY IN JAPAN! So they took realism and melded in fiction. EXCELLENT! Very well done. Indeed the largest bees like that are only found in Japan.

Another thing I don't get is WTF with the crest than POOF mage is dead bleeding out. Now WTF is that magic? WTF it came from? Who taught her that? What element is it? You know TONS of questions or questionable scenes.

The other bees came out of the mage's body - they stated this explicitly in the episode.
The spell isn't really that important. It caused instant death, and that's all that really matters.
Yeah it was only from his mouth? I though there was more to it. Oh well, then Natalia should have burned the body but too many persons, so I understand. That sucks though.

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May 13, 2012 11:46 AM

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damn second episode in a row I cried;
Kuritsugu's past gives me chills...
 
May 13, 2012 11:51 AM

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Great episode.

At first, I was like "What is he doing in the middle of ocean?" And with that family talk, I said "Nah, he won't do it."

And then he took a missile launcher and aimed on the plane, I was like O_O.

Well, I understand why he did it. Even Natalia smiled at the end. I find it mind-opening.
 
May 13, 2012 11:52 AM

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I wonder how many people will say “what the hell?” lol… amazing episode, i found it very nostalgically bitter sweet.

Kiritsugu: “I’ve always thought of you as my mother.”
-she smiles-

What a lovely ending in every way, put in Kiritsugu's perspective.
 
May 13, 2012 12:08 PM
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Linkark07 said:
Besides, I can't see how would Natalia escape the plane without being bitten by one of those bugs


Natalia could have landed the plane in a secluded area. She could have broken the cockpit glass and get out, and then proceed to blow up the plane.
 
May 13, 2012 12:13 PM

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Ftimis said:
Linkark07 said:
Besides, I can't see how would Natalia escape the plane without being bitten by one of those bugs


Natalia could have landed the plane in a secluded area. She could have broken the cockpit glass and get out, and then proceed to blow up the plane.


Professional pilots need a runway to land an airliner. An amateur like Natalia wouldn't even be able to consider something like that.
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
May 13, 2012 12:19 PM

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ataraxial said:
ssjokg said:
Blablabla

Heck, not even a scene, but just one more well-crafted line of thought/dialogue from Kiritsugu would have been enough to make it clear that it would really put a lot of people at risk.

zeroyuki92 said:
Blablabla

Your analysis makes sense on all fronts, but you have to admit that the anime could've done a better job making it clearer so that everyone watching could appreciate the risks involved. The anime made it seem like Natalia had things more or less under control and could have landed the plane safely, which is a bit of a misrepresentation.


Thank you. Yeah, I also notices that, but I guess I myself just like this way of indirect storytelling more. How Kerry and Natalia's speech didn't mention any plan of 'blow the airship' bring a kind of emotional twist for me(not really unpredictable, but most people still hopes that it won't be the way things happened, right?).

And I ended up rewatching the entire scene, and I read a mention of "If Natalia had landed successfully, there's no telling how many people might have died". For me it's already enough to describe Kerry's situation, and I remembered that I accepted Kerry's position in that exact dialogue when I was watching the first time. "Her sacrifices prevented that" also strengthen Kerry's way of thinking for the watcher.

Of course, there's no way that everybody think in that way, so I guess we should drop this discussion of people's way of interpretation here. But for me (who also a non-LN reader), this is one of the best F/Z episode up till now (although I didn't really like the previous flashback episode).

Also, I liked some little touches such as Natalia's last smile, sunrise and a flock of flying birds. Really set the mood right.
 
May 13, 2012 12:38 PM

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I've read the spoilers for the novel awhile ago, so I saw this coming. Pretty tragic. So that about sums up Kiritsugu. Where he has killed everyone he's ever cared about, and the only person he didn't kill he cared about he regrets not killing.

Oh yes and before I forget: Happy Mother's day, Natalia.
 
May 13, 2012 1:00 PM
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LunarMoon said:
Ftimis said:
Linkark07 said:
Besides, I can't see how would Natalia escape the plane without being bitten by one of those bugs


Natalia could have landed the plane in a secluded area. She could have broken the cockpit glass and get out, and then proceed to blow up the plane.


Professional pilots need a runway to land an airliner. An amateur like Natalia wouldn't even be able to consider something like that.

Maybe she could just jump out of the cockpit glass when the plane was still flying and then the boom and happy end~
Well we can make many assumptions which may hold true or not but it's actually pretty meaningless when Kiritsugu himself decided to blow her up along with the plane without even trying to save her.
Yeah that's the Kiritsugu we know.
 
May 13, 2012 1:14 PM

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rejer said:
LunarMoon said:
Ftimis said:
Linkark07 said:
Besides, I can't see how would Natalia escape the plane without being bitten by one of those bugs


Natalia could have landed the plane in a secluded area. She could have broken the cockpit glass and get out, and then proceed to blow up the plane.


Professional pilots need a runway to land an airliner. An amateur like Natalia wouldn't even be able to consider something like that.

Maybe she could just jump out of the cockpit glass when the plane was still flying and then the boom and happy end~
Well we can make many assumptions which may hold true or not but it's actually pretty meaningless when Kiritsugu himself decided to blow her up along with the plane without even trying to save her.
Yeah that's the Kiritsugu we know.


And that comes right back to the whole thing about how landing on water from that height would be just as fatal as landing on concrete from over twenty stories up. Both of them had several hours to come up with a solution to the ghoul problem, but neither of them could find one, as admitted by Natalia.

Kiritsugu immediately suggested that she sky dive out the plane, but then she mentioned that she hadn't brought a parachute. Seriously, if Natalia found a way to save herself, then she would have done so after informing Kiritsugu.
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
May 13, 2012 1:39 PM
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Well damn.
 
May 13, 2012 1:46 PM

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I felt that this episode was kind of the opposite of the last episode. The previous episode was a decent horror story until it messed up with a terrible rushed ending that did the Kiritsuga no favors in the development department.

This time around the majority of the episode was kind of bland and boring with the last few minutes being the only really worthwhile part. The final conversation between Kiritsuga and Natalia along with his ending exposition did a great job of summing up his personal philosophy as well as his character arc up to that point, however, I felt the episodes themselves were something of a let down.

I didn't think these episodes were bad, I just don't think they lived up to the quality I have come to expect from Fate/Zero. The writing and development for Kiritsuga was really uneven which was a major disappointment for me. It felt like things were a bit rushed and that a large block of exposition at the back end was the only way to make any kind of sense out of these messy episodes. The exposition at the end was quite what I would call indigestible but it was a close call. Then you add in the over emotional scream at the end and it got to the point where I was laughing at the end of the episode.

In almost any other anime I probably wouldn't be this hard on these two episodes but these episodes barely even felt like Fate/Zero to be. The tone and the content always felt slightly off and I could never settle into their groove.

But it looks like we'll be getting back into the present storyline next week so I'm sure the show will be back to it's normal quality. I don't knock the show for doing something different with this extended flashback but I do take issue with how poorly it turned out.
 
May 13, 2012 2:02 PM

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It was an interesting and pretty "food for thought" episode, and, eventhough it's a flashback and moves away from the original storyline, I can't consider it a filler, since it showed exactly what I wanted to know since episode 4, this is Kiritsugu's way of seeing things and his idea of how he might use the grail.

As for this philosophy I think he is pretty similar to characters like Lelouch Lamperouge or Itachi Uchiha (CG and Naruto) following the path of the End justifies the Means as long as there is no other better way of reaching that End, and that End is relatively necessary. On that process he does not let his personal feelings interfere, killing so his own father or his adoptative mother if necessary. He acts this way as a result of his failure of not killing Shirley and therefore letting all the village to be killed.

The question that comes to my mind is this: Where does he see himself between all the fate and obligation of doing the world better? Does he blame himself for not killing Shirley and therefore killing all the villagers and so he does not want to repeat failure which leads to innecessary victims? Even in this choice, is it just for personal redemption or for love to the world and Sirley? Or does he kinda play with the world likely as Kira from DN does? That analogy is quite important imo, hence the end you want to achieve is a direct consequence from your true intentions and motivations.

Although he follows the path of "Machiavelli" (supposedly), it wouldn't make me happy if he tries to kill every single man in the world who is bad, like Natalia dissuades him, primarily because that is a too subjective idea supported only by mad people unable to understand human nature. So I hope he is mature enough to use that logical and intrepid mind of his to use the grail in the most realistic and human way possible.

Btw: Natalia smiled at the end because she awaited 'Kelly' would kill her, you could say she desired it as a proof of how she has raised him up and what he has become.
Modified by bitchin_free, May 14, 2012 6:35 AM
 
May 13, 2012 2:25 PM

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Bamkuro said:
So I hope he is mature enough to use that logical and intrepid mind of his to use the grail in the most realistic and human way possible.


Well you will be really surprised that's for sure...

And who is Catalina? lol,jk
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