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Poll: Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 5 Discussion


May 5, 2012 5:48 PM

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ssjokg said:

maybe the "Dead" meant that she looked like a dead body"Skin white as wax.
"The blue-black veins that popped up tore her looks into shards.
An expression, full with near-death anguish, filled her face.
She is about to die – that was obvious.
Although she’s about to die, she was still writhing." and not a reference in the The Dead,since the only way to become one is to become one is to be bitten by a vampire(aka Dead Apostle) which means you will take some of his blood in you


Could be, I know some of the translation is awkward and at least some of it is translated from the Chinese translation, so it could just be an error, too.

Since you can turn yourself into a Dead Apostle through magical research maybe you can fail and just end up as one of the Dead; I can't remember if it was ever specifically said that can't happen in Tsukihime or not, I just remember that being bitten it's not common to turn into a Dead Apostle, so even if she became one it's almost certain the rest of the people there didn't.
 
May 5, 2012 6:36 PM
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Isn't it sad, Shirley?


Yeah, yeah, beating a dead horse, or rather, a Dead Apostle.
 
May 5, 2012 6:52 PM

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Man never knew Kiritsugu witnessed a Vampire-zombie outbreak while having to kill his father shits tough.


and pretty much the mages = Unbrella corp of magic :_;
 
May 5, 2012 7:00 PM

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Well done ufotable. You guys have successfully, hands down, given me a new number 1 spot.

Everything about this episode was perfect, the characters, visuals, music, everything.

I can not wait till the next episode and the ones after that. I need more Fate/Zero. More.
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May 5, 2012 7:02 PM

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1. You don't turn into a Dead Apostle that quickly ... and not everyone can ...
2. Cornelius Alba !!!!!!!!!!!!! Spontaneous combustion !!!!!! I wanted to see hoono no umi animated :(

In Tsukihime I thought I read only 1/100 (or was that even less?) could turn into a DP. And that it wasn't instant.
Modified by Yanoflies, May 5, 2012 7:10 PM
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May 5, 2012 7:09 PM

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Yanoflies said:
1. You don't turn into a Dead Apostle that quickly ... and not everyone can ...
2. Cornelius Alba !!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Tsukihime I thought I read only 1/100 (or was that even less?) could turn into a DP. And that it wasn't instant.


Tsukihime Spoiler
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May 5, 2012 7:20 PM

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Great flashback episode, I was like "Wait, they turn into zombies?", lol. They said "Vampires (Dead Apostles)" but they looked more like Zombies :P
 
May 5, 2012 7:29 PM

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My impression of this episode of Fate/Zero.

 
May 5, 2012 7:31 PM

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Too many replies already?
and little kiritsugu is cool.
Good episode.
 
May 5, 2012 7:31 PM

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LunarMoon said:
Yanoflies said:
1. You don't turn into a Dead Apostle that quickly ... and not everyone can ...
2. Cornelius Alba !!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Tsukihime I thought I read only 1/100 (or was that even less?) could turn into a DP. And that it wasn't instant.


Tsukihime Spoiler




For those who wants a quick run down on the world of the dead in Nasuverse:



But since this is magic craft related Dead, it's not really a real vampire (one that originates from a True Ancestor).



Oh and the red eyes you guys were talking about: those are low level Mystic Eyes found in The Deads.
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May 5, 2012 8:00 PM

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Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.
 
May 5, 2012 8:09 PM

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>This topic
>People complaining that the MAIN CHARACTER is getting screentime

I swear to god nobody would complain if it was a Saber episode. Or three.

There's not enough left of the flashback in the LNs to make a whole other episode about this, and the Heart of Freaks story is just a random side story thing. There's no way that'll be in the next episode. All that's really left for this flashback is
 
May 5, 2012 8:10 PM

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Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.
Yeah totally. There was a perfect balance of horror and plot along with action in this one episode. The question is are there Zombie adaptations left to adapt?

That being said I cannot see how people would dislike the fact that Fate Zero incorporated once again unique elements into a fluid set-up. I will leave it that.

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May 5, 2012 8:17 PM

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Kiritsugu had a very difficult past. He lost his girlfriend and had to kill his own father. I saw her death coming, but I was not expecting it to turn out like this, that was so messed up. :'(
 
May 5, 2012 8:28 PM

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TheRealBoyd said:
>This topic
>People complaining that the MAIN CHARACTER is getting screentime

I swear to god nobody would complain if it was a Saber episode. Or three.

There's not enough left of the flashback in the LNs to make a whole other episode about this, and the Heart of Freaks story is just a random side story thing. There's no way that'll be in the next episode. All that's really left for this flashback is


It's pretty funny, actually. Anyone exposed to Fate/Stay Night, even through the terrible DEEN Anime, should have been able to see the heavy focus on Kiritsugu from episode 1, especially now that they've killed off a large portion of the other masters.

Other than that, it's interesting how the reception of this episode is so heavily split between Type-Moon veterans and anime-only viewers. To viewers who are experienced with the Nasuverse, the episode comes off as a really squee inducing bit of story-universe integration with Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai. To an anime-only viewer, the inclusion of vampires probably does seem like an ass-pull.
Modified by LunarMoon, May 5, 2012 8:31 PM
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
May 5, 2012 8:35 PM

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TheRealBoyd said:
>This topic
>People complaining that the MAIN CHARACTER is getting screentime

I swear to god nobody would complain if it was a Saber episode. Or three.


Exactly, this is Fate/Zero not FSN.

Any ways,

Man, oh man... Kiritsugu's past was really emotional, I'm left speechless. From the happy, lively and cute beginning to the bitter end in the last few minutes... That ending theme really fit the mood perfectly. I'm really looking forward to the "next few years" Kiritsugu speaks of, it looks like we'll get to see the birth of the true Magus killer and dark hero, Emiya Kiritsugu. Also, I wonder when he first met Irisviel, I really want to "feel" the impact she had on his life and the events leading up to the birth of Ilya.

SHIRLEY NO!
 
May 5, 2012 9:10 PM
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Wow awesome episode! Really reminds me of fullmetal alchemist for some reason
 
May 5, 2012 9:12 PM

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Pretty damn enjoyable, not without its faults though.
 
May 5, 2012 10:15 PM
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Looks like the Kiritsugu episodes will split the fans in some way. That's to be expected, because not that many has Kiritsugu as their favourite character and the first season seems to left out Kiritsugu a lot so the sudden spotlight on his character surprised many people.

But the new OP and ED reminds us again that essentially the MC of Fate/Zero is Emiya Kiritsugu, so whether you like it or not he's going to have 2 episodes dedicated to his past.

However I do question whether they should make it 2 ep, from the interviews I thought it was going Ep 18 only, and the rest about his past will be included in the Blu-ray, considering the many cuts of Ep 17. Looks like ufotable decided that Kiritsugu is more important than Kirei for TV viewing.
 
May 5, 2012 10:16 PM

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Damn he had a pretty messed up past. It's good to finally see the mages association. I didn't expect to see Dead Apostles in Fate/Zero. If Kiritsugu had shot Sherry, then the town would've been saved. I'm guessing he regretted not killing Sherry when he had the chance.

Looks like the next episode will show some more of his past. Looking forward to it.
Modified by Ragna92, May 5, 2012 10:43 PM
 
May 5, 2012 10:40 PM

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Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.

It's often referred to as Madoka Magica. Not your typical zombies though.

Thess said:
It's exactly like Rin episode. They take a small instance and stretch it unnecessarily while they cram actual relevant plot developments for the story: Irisviel's condition, Kirei's transformation. Both that actually, you know, move the plot?

LunarMoon said:
Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair.

You can't compare Kiritsugu's importance in Fate/Zero to that of Rin's.


It's still irrelevant to this story. I don't need to know who Kiritsugu's crush was when he was a teenager. He's less interesting now than he was. Previously, when Kotomine was slapping Kiritsugu's wife and girlfriend around, it bothered him that he couldn't understand what motivated those women to act as they did, given his understanding of Kiritsugu. I bet he knew that this episode was coming and that's why he's lost interest in Kiritsugu and becoming more interested in Matou.

Maybe it's unrelated but I can't for a moment see who the despair quote is about. Not anyone in this episode, at least, 'cause it didn't seem like any of them had any ideals.

While as a throwaway episode, this was done well, I think it would have been better as an OVA. I dunno how this story is going to end up, but given the torrid pace they've kept, I can't see them being able to waste at least a full episode here. The flashback during his earlier battle was tolerable because it was relatively brief, and because it fit the moment. It's easy to see a character, as he waits, reflecting on how he got there.

This digression is disappointing. It feels like the show's creators took their collective foot off the pedal.
 
May 5, 2012 10:48 PM

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Mockman said:
Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.

It's often referred to as Madoka Magica. Not your typical zombies though.

Thess said:
It's exactly like Rin episode. They take a small instance and stretch it unnecessarily while they cram actual relevant plot developments for the story: Irisviel's condition, Kirei's transformation. Both that actually, you know, move the plot?

LunarMoon said:
Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair.

You can't compare Kiritsugu's importance in Fate/Zero to that of Rin's.


It's still irrelevant to this story. I don't need to know who Kiritsugu's crush was when he was a teenager. He's less interesting now than he was. Previously, when Kotomine was slapping Kiritsugu's wife and girlfriend around, it bothered him that he couldn't understand what motivated those women to act as they did, given his understanding of Kiritsugu. I bet he knew that this episode was coming and that's why he's lost interest in Kiritsugu and becoming more interested in Matou.

Maybe it's unrelated but I can't for a moment see who the despair quote is about. Not anyone in this episode, at least, 'cause it didn't seem like any of them had any ideals.

While as a throwaway episode, this was done well, I think it would have been better as an OVA. I dunno how this story is going to end up, but given the torrid pace they've kept, I can't see them being able to waste at least a full episode here. The flashback during his earlier battle was tolerable because it was relatively brief, and because it fit the moment. It's easy to see a character, as he waits, reflecting on how he got there.

This digression is disappointing. It feels like the show's creators took their collective foot off the pedal.


I want to facepalm so much right now.
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May 5, 2012 11:14 PM

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I'll join you with the face palming.
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May 5, 2012 11:40 PM
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You know, while I kinda see some people know well enough how the stages of "vampirism" work in Nasuverse, Shirley was "at the very least" a Living Dead. The Dead (which is different from a Living Dead btw) and Ghouls are both mindless beasts, and the Dead themselves are literally just sacks of flesh under the command of a Dead Apostle, literal zombies. Shirley was created by way of magic so she skipped some stages but seeing as she kept some sanity you wouldn't considered her a Ghoul, let alone one of the Dead. Satsuki was a far rarer case in the fact she was a complete accident that instantly jumped to the ranks of a Dead Apostle. Just chalk it up to some little bits of info which Type-Moon should already properly clarify.

And Kiritsugu's dad was researching Dead Apostles as there's no recognized way of magi becoming "True Ancestors". As far as I remember True Ancestors are created by the World using Crimson Moon as the basis. No magus can even hope to replicate knowledge only found in Akasha when they can't even reach it to begin with. Let alone the fact True Ancestors are natural enemies of humanity due to their role as protectors of Gaia. Seems pretty...impossible, for a human to become a Nature Spirit.
Modified by Leon-Gun, May 5, 2012 11:49 PM

 
May 5, 2012 11:42 PM

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All this complaining/praise for Kiritsugu's back-story helped me realize why there is a need for this episode.

Totentanz said:
Interestingly, Kiritsugu's father appears to bear similarities with Tokiomi Tohsaka as both of them consider searching for the root more important than anything else, with negative outcome for the ones around them.

In both cases it's an error of judgment they made that led to their demise. Just like Tokiomi never fully understood his student Kirei, Kiritsugu's father failed to understand what was truly important to his son, resulting in getting backstabbed by them. His seemingly lack of caring destroyed Kiritsugu's image of his father, whom he believed to be a "good" person, a man who sought to help humanity.


What Totentanz brought up about the similarities in the two deaths is crucial to one's understanding of Kirei. No wonder Kirei finds Kiritsugu ominous and someone very much like himself. If we did not know the motivation for Kirei in killing Tokiomi and the motivation for Kiristsugu in killing his father, the similarities between the two would lead one to conclude that their intent was very similar. However, that is not true. Kiristsugu killed because he was affected by the death of his first love and the demise of his village; whereas, Kirei killed to essentially amuse himself.

The lack of humanity in Kirei contrasts with our main character, who is very much human. Before this episode, we couldn't have identified whether Kiristugu was the product of his tragic environment or some idealist distanced from the rest of humanity, like Kirei (Kirei is an idealist in the sense, he only cares about getting his job done or his amusement at the end of the day). This episode and the next as well will further clarify Saber's incorrect statement: Kiritsugu is a monster. It isn't Kiritsugu who is the monster, it's Kirei.
 
May 5, 2012 11:46 PM

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s2012k1993 said:
All this complaining/praise for Kiritsugu's back-story helped me realize why there is a need for this episode.

Totentanz said:
Interestingly, Kiritsugu's father appears to bear similarities with Tokiomi Tohsaka as both of them consider searching for the root more important than anything else, with negative outcome for the ones around them.

In both cases it's an error of judgment they made that led to their demise. Just like Tokiomi never fully understood his student Kirei, Kiritsugu's father failed to understand what was truly important to his son, resulting in getting backstabbed by them. His seemingly lack of caring destroyed Kiritsugu's image of his father, whom he believed to be a "good" person, a man who sought to help humanity.


What Totentanz brought up about the similarities in the two deaths is crucial to one's understanding of Kirei. No wonder Kirei finds Kiritsugu ominous and someone very much like himself. If we did not know the motivation for Kirei in killing Tokiomi and the motivation for Kiristsugu in killing his father, the similarities between the two would lead one to conclude that their intent was very similar. However, that is not true. Kiristsugu killed because he was affected by the death of his first love and the demise of his village; whereas, Kirei killed to essentially amuse himself.

The lack of humanity in Kirei contrasts with our main character, who is very much human. Before this episode, we couldn't have identified whether Kiristugu was the product of his tragic environment or some idealist distanced from the rest of humanity, like Kirei (Kirei is an idealist in the sense, he only cares about getting his job done or his amusement at the end of the day). This episode and the next as well will further clarify Saber's incorrect statement: Kiritsugu is a monster. It isn't Kiritsugu who is the monster, it's Kirei.


kirei looking to find pleasure in his life- not human
kiritsugu hanging on to reality through a childish ideal-human
rlly? whats that logic?

anyways this episode is not pointless
it just shows us how twisted the world and kiritsugu's sense of justice is which all ties into his realization in the conclusion

also that potion noritaka made must be some strong shit to have made shirley into a vampire in a few hours when normally its a rarity that takes decades
Modified by BloodRequiem, May 5, 2012 11:50 PM
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 5, 2012 11:50 PM

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ZOMBIES! Should have a part where otto-san forces Shirley to take the pillz because if she took it herself then she is dumb.
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May 6, 2012 12:36 AM

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Thess said:
My God, Kiritsugu is a failure as main character. Where is his charisma? I'm so disconnected to him. I nearly fell asleep halfway of this episode.

Meh worthy. The only remarkable thing I can praise about it is of the production values: great animation and music. Oh and the Alba cameo.

Overall, this season has been so weak compared to the first one in terms of adaptation where the only episode which I can say was terrible was the Rin's episode. The only episode I can say it was good of this season was the premiere one.

So disappointing Ufotable.


Yeah no. Your clearly watching this for the wrong reasons if your looking for a charismatic main character.
 
May 6, 2012 12:55 AM

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NoobHunterD said:
ZOMBIES! Should have a part where otto-san forces Shirley to take the pillz because if she took it herself then she is dumb.


imo perhaps the point is to show that deep inside kiritsugu is a weak man
subconsciously he refuses to admit that its his inability to kill shirley that caused the extermination of the island but instead pushes the blame onto his father (not saying that his father isnt at fault) and this eventually leads him to become the man he is
he only knows how to destroy evil but doesnt know how to create good
and if his father forced shirley to take the potion then maybe we dont get that insight
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 6, 2012 1:01 AM

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Thess said:
My God, Kiritsugu is a failure as main character. Where is his charisma? I'm so disconnected to him. I nearly fell asleep halfway of this episode.

Meh worthy. The only remarkable thing I can praise about it is of the production values: great animation and music. Oh and the Alba cameo.

Overall, this season has been so weak compared to the first one in terms of adaptation where the only episode which I can say was terrible was the Rin's episode. The only episode I can say it was good of this season was the premiere one.

So disappointing Ufotable.



this episode wasnt as bad as rin's episode
i thought it was ok...
until the preview for the next episode
i mean its ridiculous to drag out 1 chapter into 2 episodes
maybe they combined it with heart of freaks or something idk
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 6, 2012 1:09 AM

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BloodRequiem said:
NoobHunterD said:
ZOMBIES! Should have a part where otto-san forces Shirley to take the pillz because if she took it herself then she is dumb.


imo perhaps the point is to show that deep inside kiritsugu is a weak man
subconsciously he refuses to admit that its his inability to kill shirley that caused the extermination of the island but instead pushes the blame onto his father (not saying that his father isnt at fault) and this eventually leads him to become the man he is
he only knows how to destroy evil but doesnt know how to create good
and if his father forced shirley to take the potion then maybe we dont get that insight

I agree with that,but that doesnt mean that you cant sympathize with him.
And he does good deeds later

You cant except someone like him with that kind of past to believe in something more than "become a greater evil to destroy all evil".

And I think s2012k1993 talks about humanity.Kiritsugu would discard it at times to save as many as he can while Kirei simple finds joy through the pain of others.Ryuunusuke is also human but totally lacks human nature.
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May 6, 2012 1:40 AM

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I LOVE how the Type-Moon series are connected to each other!
 
May 6, 2012 1:40 AM

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So here we have Mahou Zombies......
 
May 6, 2012 2:09 AM

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Mockman said:
Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.

It's often referred to as Madoka Magica. Not your typical zombies though.

Thess said:
It's exactly like Rin episode. They take a small instance and stretch it unnecessarily while they cram actual relevant plot developments for the story: Irisviel's condition, Kirei's transformation. Both that actually, you know, move the plot?

LunarMoon said:
Let us tell the story of a certain man. The tale of a man who, more than anyone else, believed in his ideals, and by them was driven into despair.

You can't compare Kiritsugu's importance in Fate/Zero to that of Rin's.


It's still irrelevant to this story. I don't need to know who Kiritsugu's crush was when he was a teenager. He's less interesting now than he was. Previously, when Kotomine was slapping Kiritsugu's wife and girlfriend around, it bothered him that he couldn't understand what motivated those women to act as they did, given his understanding of Kiritsugu. I bet he knew that this episode was coming and that's why he's lost interest in Kiritsugu and becoming more interested in Matou.

Maybe it's unrelated but I can't for a moment see who the despair quote is about. Not anyone in this episode, at least, 'cause it didn't seem like any of them had any ideals.

While as a throwaway episode, this was done well, I think it would have been better as an OVA. I dunno how this story is going to end up, but given the torrid pace they've kept, I can't see them being able to waste at least a full episode here. The flashback during his earlier battle was tolerable because it was relatively brief, and because it fit the moment. It's easy to see a character, as he waits, reflecting on how he got there.

This digression is disappointing. It feels like the show's creators took their collective foot off the pedal.


I think you dont know that Fate/zero is a story MOSTLY about Kiritsugu and what Lunar moon posted were the very first lines of the LN.It's about his struggle.

And you dont need ideals in order to despair.The woman he loved died,his village was burned and friends died and in the end he killed his father.I dont see how he wouldnt despair after all that.His back story isnt irrelevant at all.Kirei and Kiritsugu are the mains here.Kirei has more than enough screentime already stop bitching about it.

I am so satisfied that we get one more ep(or half) just to annoy people like you
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May 6, 2012 2:17 AM
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Splendid episode once again, it adds quite a bit of depth to the character of Kiritsugu despite the suddenness of the developments. Conventional but great flashback.

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May 6, 2012 2:23 AM

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Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.


It would be awesome, do want this. There's not enough dark & serious zombiepocalypse animes out there. (animes like HotD contains more fanservice that action)

About the episode, I think Kiritsugu needs more expression.
Modified by Reim_Seranth, May 6, 2012 2:29 AM

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May 6, 2012 2:25 AM

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wishbook said:
Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.


It would be awesome, do want this. There's not enough dark & serious zombiepocalypse animes out there. (animes like HotD contains more fanservice that action)


i consider HOTD hentai without sex
anyways id like to see him deconstruct the zombie/vampire genre...tsukihime 2 perhaps?
As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all.
 
May 6, 2012 2:39 AM

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BloodRequiem said:

kirei looking to find pleasure in his life- not human
kiritsugu hanging on to reality through a childish ideal-human
rlly? whats that logic?

anyways this episode is not pointless
it just shows us how twisted the world and kiritsugu's sense of justice is which all ties into his realization in the conclusion


It's not that seeking pleasure is inhuman, but seeking pleasure by killing is a quality we associate with a monster. On the other hand, Kiritsugu kills because of his experiences as a human. The emotional juggernaut he experienced as a child can explain his rationale behind his killing, which I would consider to be very human. When it comes to killing others, Kiritsugu is more human (we can empathize more with) than Kirei. However, I don't claim that killing is better if it's done by a human than a monster. That is up for grabs.

I agree with you on the point that Kiritsugu is weak in that he is willing to take the path of least resistance to achieve his goals. I'm sure there was an alternative to killing his own father, but he never realizes that. Focusing on a certain goal, he is unwilling to discriminate between methods i.e. he has no principles when it comes to killing. Is this the right way to treat killing? That is up for debate between believers in just war, realists and pacifists. But weak does not necessarily translate into wrong. Therefore, we may call Kiritsugu weak, but most certainly, not wrong.

All this begs the question: is Kirei any stronger or is he simply a sadistic monster with the sole goal of increasing his own pleasure.
 
May 6, 2012 2:52 AM

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BloodRequiem said:
wishbook said:
Wasabi said:
Urobuchi should just make a zombiepocalypse story.


It would be awesome, do want this. There's not enough dark & serious zombiepocalypse animes out there. (animes like HotD contains more fanservice that action)


i consider HOTD hentai without sex
anyways id like to see him deconstruct the zombie/vampire genre...tsukihime 2 perhaps?


count me in for that...


s2012k1993 said:
BloodRequiem said:

kirei looking to find pleasure in his life- not human
kiritsugu hanging on to reality through a childish ideal-human
rlly? whats that logic?

anyways this episode is not pointless
it just shows us how twisted the world and kiritsugu's sense of justice is which all ties into his realization in the conclusion


It's not that seeking pleasure is inhuman, but seeking pleasure by killing is a quality we associate with a monster. On the other hand, Kiritsugu kills because of his experiences as a human. The emotional juggernaut he experienced as a child can explain his rationale behind his killing, which I would consider to be very human. When it comes to killing others, Kiritsugu is more human (we can empathize more with) than Kirei. However, I don't claim that killing is better if it's done by a human than a monster. That is up for grabs.

I agree with you on the point that Kiritsugu is weak in that he is willing to take the path of least resistance to achieve his goals. I'm sure there was an alternative to killing his own father, but he never realizes that. Focusing on a certain goal, he is unwilling to discriminate between methods i.e. he has no principles when it comes to killing. Is this the right way to treat killing? That is up for debate between believers in just war, realists and pacifists. But weak does not necessarily translate into wrong. Therefore, we may call Kiritsugu weak, but most certainly, not wrong.

All this begs the question: is Kirei any stronger or is he simply a sadistic monster with the sole goal of increasing his own pleasure.


The fact that Kirei needed Gil's help to realize it shows how weak he is as a human.Weak but a different kind than the weakness Kiritsugu has. Kiritsugu is a "moster" since the beginning
while Kirei didnt accept it when Gilgamesh opened his eyes.
If you take into account how they chosed their paths I would say Kiritsugu is stronger.
Thats how I see it...
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May 6, 2012 3:05 AM

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It's really disappointing that shirley have to die.But it's part of kiritsugu's character development.

It seems the setting is on philippines since "alimango" is a filipino word.
 
May 6, 2012 4:13 AM

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F/Z Is TYPE-MOON at it's best. More elaborate and longer than KnK, more spectacular than Tsukihime and darker than FSN, but not too dark. Also, I think this is my second favorite episode after 16, which is my number 1 so far.

And to the person who said "I thought this is going to be a funny episode because I see children playing on the beach" - LOL, really? When I see focus on kids playing, in THAT kind of setting, it spells "trouble" from the very beginning, and I just countdown the time until shit hits the fan.



-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=-
 
May 6, 2012 4:40 AM

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Cratex said:
belatkuro said:
Doesn't make sense for Kerry to find a gun, place the magazine and then shoot. Doubt he would know how to manipulate a gun. Oh well.
Why? I learned how to use guns at around 12 or 13 - was hunting not long after. Also, a semi-auto pistol is easy to use - by design - shove the magazine in, cock it (if even required), and start shooting. The only tricky part would be the safety, and often that's obvious as well.


Lol..bad parenting.
"I left everything I own in One Piece" ~ Gol D. Roger
 
May 6, 2012 5:20 AM

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BossLuffy said:
Cratex said:
belatkuro said:
Doesn't make sense for Kerry to find a gun, place the magazine and then shoot. Doubt he would know how to manipulate a gun. Oh well.
Why? I learned how to use guns at around 12 or 13 - was hunting not long after. Also, a semi-auto pistol is easy to use - by design - shove the magazine in, cock it (if even required), and start shooting. The only tricky part would be the safety, and often that's obvious as well.


Lol..bad parenting.


I wouldn't say that. There are a lot of kids from rural areas that learn how to hunt at an early age, to the extent that even Hilary Clinton once said that her father taught her how to use a gun, for that reason, throughout her childhood. There's also the safety aspect that Cratex mentioned.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-502443_162-3842857-502443.html
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Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!
 
May 6, 2012 5:57 AM

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Best episode so far easily.

I always liked Kiritsugu but now I have all the more reason to, it's so hard not to sympathise with him. He could have been living a normal life as a researcher and probably wound up with Shirley eventually had the shit not hit the fan.

Such a damned shame...though it's a really good incentive for why he became as cold as he is...killing your own father will probably do that to anyone.


 
May 6, 2012 6:11 AM

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"He says a demon will possess me if I keep working there"

Oh that Irony.

...and it's not really his fathers fault Shirley used it on herself.

It's good to be trusting but using yourself as a guinea pig? What a dumb girl.
 
May 6, 2012 6:55 AM

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I couldn't help but think of "Dead Island" when hell broke lose and the vampire's attacked.

I thought it was a very good episode. It was nice it see what young Kiritsugu was like before he becomes the cold Magus Killer we know today.
Modified by Nara-Sama, May 6, 2012 6:58 AM
 
May 6, 2012 6:58 AM
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yokaii said:
For some reason I'm really getting bored with this anime, the last season was far superior by this point.
But still, the visuals and sound don't stop to amaze me.
nigga you high?
 
May 6, 2012 7:06 AM

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Holy shit, I didn't see any of this coming. Is Shirley really dead, Kiritsugu didn't kill her since he didn't touch the dagger, right? That expression when he killed his father and said he has nothing to take with him, he has lost it.

Okay, I didn't read the LN and I didn't read/watch Tsukihime nor Kara no Kyoukai, so I have pretty much no idea what you are talking about (interesting, though) but since you guys say they are taking place in the same universe (which I didn't know) I should do it to fully understand everything. I did plan on watching KyK but any advices on which to go with first?

Nara-Sama said:
I couldn't help but think of "Dead Island" when hell broke lose and the vampire's attacked.

Except that they didn't party all night long haha
Modified by Zhou, May 6, 2012 7:12 AM
 
May 6, 2012 7:11 AM

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Zhou said:
Holy shit, I didn't see any of this coming. Is Shirley really dead, Kiritsugu didn't kill her since he didn't touch the dagger, right?
She was probably killed by the Church or Mage's Association.
 
May 6, 2012 7:17 AM

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Maurox said:
F/Z Is TYPE-MOON at it's best. More elaborate and longer than KnK, more spectacular than Tsukihime and darker than FSN, but not too dark.


While I agree that F/Z is more spectacular than Tsukihime, in the case of KnK and FSN?

More elaborate, longer and being darker =/= better

Personally (keyword here), I still think that KnK is Type-Moon's masterpiece, primarily because it pretty much embodies a more personalized and isolated story that is quite rare to find in such a busy universe. If the final chapter/movie is any indication, I'm glad that it practically focuses less on the Nasuverse and more on the human drama which was rather refreshing.

Zhou said:
Okay, I didn't read the LN and I didn't read/watch Tsukihime nor Kara no Kyoukai, so I have pretty much no idea what you are talking about (interesting, though) but since you guys say they are taking place in the same universe (which I didn't know) I should do it to fully understand everything. I did plan on watching KyK but any advices on which to go with first?


If you're going for Tsukihime, go for the VN otherwise, ignore the anime. As for KnK head straight for the movies (watch them based on their release order). If you like the KNK movies enough, you can check out the novels for extra knowledge though I don't think it's that necessary especially when you consider that even Nasu prefers the movie adaptations over his own original novels.
Modified by ronri, May 6, 2012 7:23 AM
 
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