| Is it good to be a complex human or is simply existing good in and of itself? Edit: Which do you think is better: 1. Always rationalizing and philosophizing ways to better yourself or 2. Finding happiness in simply existing*? and explain why. *And let me clarify, to simply exist doesn't mean to do nothing but be. You exist AND function. To what extent, I don't really know. -------- Recently I read Rilke's Eighth Elegy (http://payingattentiontothesky.com/2011/03/31/rilke). I was greatly intrigued by the idea of directional experience. To me, it seems like people tend to think that introspection is the best way to improve oneself. And animals on the other hand, just exist facing "out" into the Open. I know lots of people who would argue that self-awareness and advanced thought are the pinnacles of evolution and allow humans to be the greatest living beings. But my idea is that maybe just life and existence are enough. We don't necessarily need to understand and control everything. |
zeffirezMar 7, 2012 2:29 PM
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| "miracles of evolution" is an oxymoron |
| In one sense of the word, yes, but I didn't mean a supernatural wonder. I just meant something really amazing and good that came about because of evolution. Thanks for your constructive input though..... Anyways.... Care to share anything a little more on topic? |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| Either your thought process or your initial statement seem very contradictory. If "lots of people" would argue that self-awareness and advanced thought, as you put it, are miracles of evolution, etc. etc., then why would you proceed to ask the question "is it good to be a complex human or is simply existing good in and of itself?" You already know the answer, you outlined it throughout your initial statement: yes, it is good to be a complex being. But lets go back a little bit, because we shouldn't even be at this point. Lets start with why you even asked that question. I would argue that self awareness and advanced thought (among other things) are what make us human, as I'm sure many others would as well. So "simply existing" as you put it, without such things as complex thought processing, is impossible. That wouldn't be human. In the greater outlook of the world, yes, we are "simply existing", but you can simply exist while being a complex human. You cannot simply exist without being a complex human.. because humans are complex by nature. The question itself doesn't make sense. Maybe I misunderstood something. |
Legendre said: Maybe I misunderstood something. Not really - I was pretty unclear. I guess what I'm asking is "What do people think is better? Simplicity or complexity (when it comes to life philosophy)?" So is it good to meditate and introspect intensely until you reach enlightenment or is true happiness found in simply being? |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| On the one hand, ignorance is bliss... but you wouldn't be able to contemplate this question if you were not a complex, introspective being, would you? It is introspection that allows us to have things like philosophy, law, education, science etc. and for that reason I think it is undoubtedly the better option, both for humanity and for the individual. |
| Losing an Argument online? Simply post a webpage full of links, and refuse to continue until your opponents have read every last one of them! WORKS EVERY TIME! "I was debating with someone who believed in climate change, when he linked me to a graph showing evidence to that effect. So I sent him a 10k word essay on the origins of Conservatism, and escaped with my dignity intact." "THANK YOU VERBOSE WEBPAGES OF QUESTIONABLE RELEVANCE!" |
| are you dumb yes simply existing is good enough No Look for answers. The dumber you are the easier it is to say I exist is good enough. If your smart you want to know everything and make new things. The reason we are here is to enjoy stuff that people make by making something that people enjoy and trading it. Smart people ask questions, dumb people just sit there being dumb. but if the dumb people weren't there, the smart people would die cause you need people to stand there at MacDonalds to give you your hamburger or the smart guy dies. but a smart guy won't like to do that job and not work well he rather look at the cosmos or whatever. |
| I'll never be perfect but I want to know as much as possible so I can be a better person and affect those around me. True happiness isn't found in simply being, not for me D: |
| Are something like self-awareness/rational thought processes something which can empirically summed up as a yes/no + good/bad question? When we're compared to other animals on the Earth, it's easy to assume that we're the greatest beings on the earth by reason of our sole capacity to engage in introspection in order to think about the world around us and strive for improvement etc. Yes, pursuits like philosophy, literature, science and all the rest of it are grander than merely living, but we believe they're better than the alternative because we can't and won't experience the alternative. Animals can't/don't contemplate things like philosophy etc, so I think it's unfair to say such a state necessarily leads to a less happy life; the ultimate aim/point of the animal's existence is focussed differently to that of our own. Besides, we could always look in the other direction. Our levels of self-awareness/ pursuit or attainment of knowledge may be, to some level of being, like us looking down on animals. We cannot comprehend whether there may be such enlightenment/alternative pursuits of knowledge, because our focus in our lives are different to those who may have achieved higher levels of enlightenment; can you say that we are less happy for it? |
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| To live is to die. So make the best out of the remaining time you have left on this Earth. |
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| I am a clever tool using mammal that is omnivorous. I am inherently curious, entirely violent, and breed almost totally out of control. And some of my species have adopted the fucked logic that suggests all of reality was made out of thin air just so we could adore an unprovable being written as a mysognist bastard that thinks killing his kid to save me from an unprovable afterlife concept is a good way to make me like him. Some people clearly have no idea how much they are wasting our species intellectual qualities. |
| While not technically anime, currently I am a big fan of Hatsune Miku. At least I can go see her in concert. |
| Another fucking anti-religion post. You're worse than a broken record, because at least I could stand that. |
|
| Existing without any other purpose just to continue this game seems quite useless to me, so why don't we make a collective suicide to make this world a better place? And don't give me "pink baloon" shit like "Life is what you make it". |
| LUL |
herpinderp said: Recently I read Rilke's Eighth Elegy (http://payingattentiontothesky.com/2011/03/31/rilke). I was greatly intrigued by the idea of directional experience. To me, it seems like people tend to think that introspection is the best way to improve oneself. And animals on the other hand, just exist. I know lots of people who would argue that self-awareness and advanced thought are miracles of evolution and allow humans to be the greatest living beings. But my idea is that maybe just life and existence are enough. We don't necessarily need to understand and control everything. Is it good to be a complex human or is simply existing good in and of itself? Edit: Which do you think is better: 1. Always rationalizing and philosophizing ways to better yourself or 2. Finding happiness in simply existing? and explain why. Philosophing ways to better yourself is exactly what you're doing now. I think the answer is clear. |
| I see dead people. |
one-more-time said: Because that would be equally as useless, but a lot harder to do?Existing without any other purpose just to continue this game seems quite useless to me, so why don't we make a collective suicide to make this world a better place? Existence is pointless no matter how you look at it, at least outside of surviving, eating and breeding. But there's no point thinking about finding happiness in simply existing, because at the end of the day, humans aren't capable of that, our intelligence stops us. I'd even go as far as to say we can't find lasting happiness in anything like that, we'll always be chasing after something new off the horizon. |
| I think as human beings we have the tendency to ask questions, to wonder and philosophize. We have the need to understand and therefore we questions which ultimately leads to being 'complex'. When we know things, we never completely understand them and therefore we question. Simply existing does not bring happiness as it does not satisfy our needs of wanting to know. I don't think it's even possible to just simply exist. Every human, questions something or the other and is always trying to better them self at something, no matter how petty the thing might be. We can't choose to be complex but we simply are. |
| It's hard to answer what is best simplicity or complexity. Both of them has positives and negatives.Animals for example are beings of simplicity they live easy live, one that relies just on instincs. They do not feel emotional pain or joy, they do not have ambitions and they do not have freedome of choice . Life of complexity is a hard one. There are morals, rules, emotion and what not to uphold, not to say that we lean to self destruction too. But we have freedome and ways to self improve. Inspite of all the hardship I would choose complexity. Life is more interesting like that xDNot to forget that we are beings of complexity by nature. |
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| Whatever floats your boat. For humanity as a species it is probably advantageous to be introspective, but as we can see pretty much everywhere it leads to various (sometimes deadly and anything but progressive) conflicts as well, so.. whatever. I don't think that we are complex beings by the way, no matter how we choose to live. We are as simple and straight-forward as any other species that I know of. Surviving and breeding. |
| Be happy. Better yourself but try not to rationalize too much. You'll drive yourself crazy. |
| <!--link--><a href="http://myanimelist.net/animelist/angelfire892&sclick=1"> Being sane is over rated :) |
Mow123 said: are you dumb Do I sound dumb? Probably. But here's what I think: -humans are ridiculously insecure and are always asking "Are we doing it right?" -in doing so, we are wasting vast swaths of time -what really matters is just being, and from that perspective, nothing matters So think outside the box for a sec, forget understanding, progress, and order; and just be. I guess. P.S. I know this whole thread is huuuugely hypocritical, but it is what it is. |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| It depends on the person. Of course, existing is very important, but what's the point of existing if you cannot accomplish anything? Without being passionate, whats really the point of existing in the first place? If one exists solely to exist, and has no influence on anything, nor can have influence on anything, can we really say that this person exists? Sure, this person exists, but is so insignificant that the person may as well not exist. If you exist, but no one knows that you exist and you do not have any influence, then existing is meaningless. Pretend that you become a ghost that can't move, and is forced to look at a wall for the rest of eternity. Where everyone in the world forgets about you and you have no influence on the world. It sounds like hell, and in this case, most people would rather not exist. It really depends on the person's goals in life and the mindset you're in, if one finds happiness in just existing, then they are really simple, but easily pleased, which can be good. People like this will live a very happy life with the simplest desire which is to exist. For me, existing is not good enough, it is pointless for me to exist if I cannot influence anything nor think. There is much more to being alive than existing. |
 "I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
herpinderp said: Indeed, the best form of existence would probably be much like a ant hive, with us all being bred for a singular purpose and honed to perfection for that role, mindlessly working or destroying any enemies with perfect predatory instincts.-humans are ridiculously insecure and are always asking "Are we doing it right?" -in doing so, we are wasting vast swaths of time But it would be kind of boring. |
| you can say that simply existing is for the ignorant... but i have to disagree. this is how it goes from dumbest peopel to smartest; dumbest: "i dont care i just live my life" smart: "i want to know what it all means" smartest: "i don't care i just live my life" |
 |
| Why ask a question and search for an answer when it's impossible to get it? Sounds like a massive waste of time to me. |
InfiniteRyvius said: Why ask a question and search for an answer when it's impossible to get it? Sounds like a massive waste of time to me. Addressing issues like these and passing around our ideas around will help us get closer to the truth. "At the very least, the process helps make us aware of our reasons for believing what we believe, and it enables us to use reason when we discuss our beliefs with other people." Basically this quote. |
"I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
DarkShards said: InfiniteRyvius said: Why ask a question and search for an answer when it's impossible to get it? Sounds like a massive waste of time to me. Addressing issues like these and passing around our ideas around will help us get closer to the truth. "At the very least, the process helps make us aware of our reasons for believing what we believe, and it enables us to use reason when we discuss our beliefs with other people." Basically this quote. Quick reply: No it won't. This isn't an exam where the examiner has the answer, there is no answer lying around anywhere, no matter what humanity does, it might get close to the answer, if there is one, but it won't know it is, it might be completely wrong, but we won't ever know. Isn't that worthless? How could we possibly get closer to the truth? We could be getting further away from it for all we know. Is there even an answer? If there is a God, there must be an answer, but if there is no God, there's no answer? It even depends on how you interpret the question. What's the point of trying to answer a question that means different things to different people, where there might not be an answer, and if there is, there's no way of ever knowing unless a God tells us when we die? Even if a God told us, would he/she it be right? What right does the God have to assign us a purpose? It's a useless question, it has no actual answer, people just assign an answer that suits them and comforts them. Challenging people on why they believe it is pointless, you can't prove them right or wrong, neither can they prove you right or wrong. If I believed that God looked like a grapefruit and started the universe by accident, my belief, my "answer" would be just as valid as Christianity, it's just more people are Christian. They couldn't prove me wrong, neither I them. Why bother thinking too hard? If you are concerned you might go to hell if you choose wrong, chances are you will anyway, since there are hundreds if not thousands of different sub-sets of different religions which say you'll go to a hell of some sort if you don't believe their exact faith, you're bound to get it wrong. It doesn't matter. Don't worry about it too much, if anything happens after you die, come to it then. Edit: It was supposed to be a quick reply when I started writing... |
| Attending to these questions, we do not expect to come to a solid answer in which everyone will agree to. We pass around ideas and arguments in order to strengthen our own beliefs. We get closer to the truth as in we strengthen our beliefs on certain subjects and challenge ourselves to ask why things are like this instead of just accepting the way things are. What is pointless to some, is interesting to others. We do not need to discuss what 2+2 is because we already know those answers. If we already know the answer, then why would we discuss it? You also talked about the afterlife which was completely off topic with what we are discussing here haha, if you want to talk about why we ask these sorts of questions, it belongs in another topic. |
"I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
Baman said: be much like a ant hive... But it would be kind of boring. But wrap your head around this: As an ant worker in a ant colony, you don't even have the subjectivity to care about boring/interesting. So you just exist. You aren't even content, because you just are. InfiniteRyvius said: Why ask a question and search for an answer when it's impossible to get it? Sounds like a massive waste of time to me. I just wanted to share my idea and see what people thought. But people are kind of missing the original idea... |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| Oh, by the way, anyone want to peer-edit my essay on that Rilke Elegy and the difference between human and animal worlds? Just putting it out there...... |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| It is because we understand, that we exist longer. If we did not understand certain things, and use this understanding to influence how we live, then we would not live as long as we do. Over time, because we understand more, the average life span has increased dramatically. I'm not saying that this is the only reason that we live longer, but it is a important reason. |
"I like to expose what people hide. I'm an intellectual rapist." - Furudo Erika |
herpinderp said: Well, obviously.But wrap your head around this: As an ant worker in a ant colony, you don't even have the subjectivity to care about boring/interesting. So you just exist. You aren't even content, because you just are. But looking at the world from our current perspective, it would all in all be damn boring, a world of perfect order and predictability. Without the flames of chaos to fan up conflicts and inspire passion in us, I'd sure change channels. |
| I'm a complex being 'cause my cells are complex eukaryotes. So suck it, nihilists! |
 |
Lesley_Roberta said: I am a clever tool using mammal that is omnivorous. I am inherently curious, entirely violent, and breed almost totally out of control. And some of my species have adopted the fucked logic that suggests all of reality was made out of thin air just so we could adore an unprovable being written as a mysognist bastard that thinks killing his kid to save me from an unprovable afterlife concept is a good way to make me like him. Some people clearly have no idea how much they are wasting our species intellectual qualities. Should have kept religion out of this as it has no place in this discussion. |
lucjan said: I'm a complex being 'cause my cells are complex eukaryotes. So suck it, nihilists! Speak for yourself, I'm an archaebacterium. I live inside Mt. Fuji, which is how I found anime. |
Baman said: looking at the world from our current perspective If I was an ant with a human mind, that would be terrible, but that isn't even possible. So you're human. That means that you were raised to think rationally and conditioned to crave order, control, and progress, to the point of addiction. Don't you think that this perspective can be very limiting? For example, say someone shares an idea with you that goes against everything you understand and shatters your whole system of belief. Since humans are so insecure and always need a method to the madness, you'll probably just refute it, deny it, or change it so that it works within your system (You can see this a lot even in this thread). Summary: Humans crave order, understanding, and progress like a crack addiction. This addiction allows us to function in society (unlike the latter haha), but it blinds us and closes our minds, just to comfort us and buffer us to our surroundings. You can take it or leave it, but I think that we are missing out here. |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
lucjan said: What does nihilism have to do with anything here?I'm a complex being 'cause my cells are complex eukaryotes. So suck it, nihilists! herpinderp said: Well, that's the way we are, nothing we can do about it. Summary: Humans crave order, understanding, and progress like a crack addiction. This addiction allows us to function in society (unlike the latter haha), but it blinds us and closes our minds, just to comfort us and buffer us to our surroundings. You can take it or leave it, but I think that we are missing out here. And that's also what makes us so fun, craving to make order out of the primordial chaos on the one hand, whilst still causing conflict and pursuing wild dreams and passions on the other hand. Take away any one, and we would cease to be human. Being wholly logical and orderly, we would lose all sense of excitement and likely die out from lack of passion, and without any order and restraint like in today's slave morality, we would revel in chaos and personal gain, ruining our civilizations and all hope for progress. |
Baman said: lucjan said: What does nihilism have to do with anything here?I'm a complex being 'cause my cells are complex eukaryotes. So suck it, nihilists! Nihilism doesn't acknowledge truth or the "importance" in anything. Complexity would be an utterly void subject to them. |
|
herpinderp said: Is it good to be a complex human or is simply existing good in and of itself? Edit: Which do you think is better: 1. Always rationalizing and philosophizing ways to better yourself or 2. Finding happiness in simply existing*? and explain why. I know lots of people who would argue that self-awareness and advanced thought are the pinnacles of evolution and allow humans to be the greatest living beings. But my idea is that maybe just life and existence are enough. We don't necessarily need to understand and control everything. For some people though, the feeling of satisfaction comes from their level of understanding. Some people may be satisfied with simplicity, but others are satisfied with discovery and optimization. I prefer optimization so I'm always on constant questioning of myself and my philosophies. I'm constantly analyzing the best ways to perceive things in the most logical manner, even going as far as optimistically and confidently seeking harmony between grey concepts such as morals and emotions, with logic that tries to get as close to numerical reasoning as best as I can. Call me Optimus Prime. Autobots, roll out. Inb4: bad joke. Fun fact: My Internet Service Provider is called Optimum Online. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos"    Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
herpinderp said: Is it good to be a complex human or is simply existing good in and of itself? Edit: Which do you think is better: 1. Always rationalizing and philosophizing ways to better yourself or 2. Finding happiness in simply existing*? and explain why. --------  If you want, I can expand. But this depends on your definitions of "functioning", "better", "happiness" and what perspectives or context you are giving to this. |
PhilosopherKingMar 10, 2012 11:03 PM
lucjan said: That depends on the form of nihilism. And epistemological nihilism is pretty damn retarded no matter how they twist or turn it, so don't lump that in the same category as the more common moral and existential nihilism.Nihilism doesn't acknowledge truth or the "importance" in anything. Complexity would be an utterly void subject to them. |
DarkShards said: Ookay...Attending to these questions, we do not expect to come to a solid answer in which everyone will agree to. We pass around ideas and arguments in order to strengthen our own beliefs. DarkShards said: I call bullshit. As soon as you attempt to bring 'truth' into the picture it's pure bullshit. You simply cannot determine what 'truth' is. You are NOT supposed to determine what truth is, either.We get closer to the truth as in we strengthen our beliefs on certain subjects and challenge ourselves to ask why things are like this instead of just accepting the way things are. What is pointless to some, is interesting to others. DarkShards said: It's best not to discuss things you have absolutely no idea about, such as, but not pertaining to, Number Theory, Operations, definitions, mathematical foundations, logic, etc...We do not need to discuss what 2+2 is because we already know those answers. If we already know the answer, then why would we discuss it? Which do you think is better: 1. Always rationalizing and philosophizing ways to better yourself or 2. Finding happiness in simply existing*? and explain why. Again, I call bullshit on 'better.' Keyword here leads to various assumptions: That there is a 'best.' That there is an 'end' of which 'best' is one, and this is the general teleological argument/assumption. The second isn't much better, but it definitely isn't worse. At least it's vague enough to evade any challenge I would want to give. After all, there are many ways of 'finding happiness.' Is it about finding it or having it? etc etc... which make up a vague statement which leads to it not really having much to argue about, unless you really want to argue about definition. |
 「みんながいるからだ。」 － 棗鈴 |
Zmffkskem said: Again, I call bullshit on 'better.' Keyword here leads to various assumptions: That there is a 'best.' ----> teleological argument/assumption. You sure do like to call bullshit. You got that on speed dial? Ok, that's just a terrible pun, I'll stop. Anyways, some people might go from embetterment to striving for "the best," but I believe that you can't reach "the best," but instead, just seeking embetterment is inherently good. Maybe it's an American thing. Or capitalist. My idea is not about extremes or even lifelong embetterment. It's just something between simply being and functioning. That's the human condition. Or something along those lines. PhilosopherKing said: If you want, I can expand. But this depends on your definitions of "functioning", "better", "happiness" and what perspectives or context you are giving to this. I can't really do that. The nature of good/better ... I'm not going to try. I'm not talking about seeking happiness (even though I probably am, subconsciously). Functionality I can define, vaguely. To function is to be with a purpose. Often when I say to function, I take into perspective all of the aspects of coexistence and society. To function is to exist within the rules of nature or human law. I'm probably forgetting something, but too bad. |
| <img src="http://hinata.taigaforum.com/?sigid=87220" /> |
| I'm a realist. Pragmatism instead of philosophy. I'll leave it to the people that enjoy sitting down doing nothing but turning old and grey before their time to figure this nonsense out. In the meantime I'll be learning practical information and knowledge. Such as medical and earth science, biology and enterpreneurism. I'm in interested in being smart, not sounding smart. |
Svard said: I'm a realist. Pragmatism instead of philosophy. I'll leave it to the people that enjoy sitting down doing nothing but turning old and grey before their time to figure this nonsense out. In the meantime I'll be learning practical information and knowledge. Such as medical and earth science, biology and enterpreneurism. I'm in interested in being smart, not sounding smart. Well, smart is a synonym for intelligence. Intellect is completely different from knowledge. What you meant to say was "I'm interested in being knowledgeable". Furthermore, whether you like to actively admit it or not, you are actively using philosophy. Your concept of preferring practical and "realistic" information is itself a philosophical path you chose. It's the path you deem philosophically "efficient" for yourself. So my point is, this really isn't a matter of philosophy vs anything else, it's a matter of the complexity of the philosophy that we each chose to use to drive us down the paths we take. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos" Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
Bloodcalibur said: What you meant to say was "I'm interested in being knowledgeable". Heh. Because knowledge isn't synonymous with intelligence? |
Svard said: Bloodcalibur said: What you meant to say was "I'm interested in being knowledgeable". Heh. Because knowledge isn't synonymous with intelligence? Knowledge is the data or information that you know. Intellect refers to your ability to process logic, information, and your ability to acquire knowledge. Two different things. I dunno which school taught you the two were the same exact entities. Example: Knowing how to add is knowledge of addition. Intelligence is what you use to process that piece of knowledge and execute the action of addition. You know that 2's value is 2 and 3's value is 3. You know that in order to find the sum of the two values you have to add them together. This is knowledge. The actual act of adding the two values is the realm of intelligence. |
"I will close my eyes and let the darkness be the light that guides me through the path of chaos" Call me the Jelly Factory. I'm the world's largest producer of jelly. |
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