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Poll: Shakugan no Shana III (Final) Episode 17 Discussion


#1
Feb 3, 2012 9:14 AM

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THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
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Aaaaaaaaaah it looks like Shana found another food she enjoys now other than melon bread...and she looks moe as fuck when she smiles like that.


Yuji is also back in Misaki city and he has business with Yoshida, Im glad to see them showing just how much Hirai Yukari's death is still affecting Yuji after all this time. ;_;


So in the end Yoshida agrees to go with Yuji, and since Yuji is such a nice host he decides to roll the "blue carpet" for her.
 
#2
Feb 3, 2012 11:29 AM
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Very curious as to who the three people from the ending of the last episode are, since it seems they aren't the three gods of the earth.
 
#3
Feb 3, 2012 12:18 PM
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great episode finally they explained us what all the confused parts since the begining of the season was about and make the yujji and the snake merge more clear. i not see any confused parts which left to explain before the end.
 
#4
Feb 3, 2012 12:23 PM

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i really whant to see more XD
really good episode
and a epic battle coming up!!!!!!
 
#5
Feb 3, 2012 12:35 PM

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I really want to know why he needs Yoshida and if that reason is what is keeping Pheles from taking the next step in her plan.

Anyway, even though there wasn't any action it was still exciting.
 
#6
Feb 3, 2012 12:38 PM

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ClementIV, if you've seen 1st season, you know that Yoshida is a "tuner" for Misaki City. So she could change some parameters of it. Yuji is need this ability to create Xanadu there.
2e16nig.png
 
#7
Feb 3, 2012 12:57 PM
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Finally, some sense in the dialogue. This has been an extremely rare occurrence in the recent episodes, especially with all the fucked up Flame Haze logic. None of them has explained at all why Xanadu would be a liability in the long run. Who gives a fuck if the denizens splurge in Xanadu WHEN THERE ARE NO HUMANS THERE. What the hell is wrong with the Flame Hazes. If you ask me they're just sour from the fact that their services would be rendered useless and they simply cooked up a half-assed reason which is nothing but a misinformed wild guess. Yuji's side of the story is so much more convincing and at least it doesn't suffer from major logic problems.
 
#8
Feb 3, 2012 1:03 PM

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Yeah I does remember that Yoshida have some kind of power, that's not like neither side is evil that's just both have different desire.

If everyone could agreed with one thinks, it would never become a war. :)
All humans got they own desires, that's make it to a war like this.

Shana is so sweet when she smile, moe .

I can't wait to see what is going to happend :)

Nothing ventured, nothing gained (Girls und Panzer der Film ) / from Nishizumi Miho

 
#9
Feb 3, 2012 1:35 PM

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Somehow the roles of the good and the expected bad guys are switched o_O
Even though it was hinted in the previous episodes.

I don't really see any argument against Yuujis plan...
There must be a plot twist coming, otherwise it will end very strange.

Maybe there'll be something with Yoshida. I think she still has the power from Pheles...

Anyways it's nearing its end and i hope there will be some action or at least plot development in another form than pure dialogue~


 
Feb 3, 2012 1:51 PM

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Ksa said:
ClementIV, if you've seen 1st season, you know that Yoshida is a "tuner" for Misaki City. So she could change some parameters of it. Yuji is need this ability to create Xanadu there.


I don't remember this. I watched the dubbed version so I don't know if they left that out or it might be that I just don't remember.

But thanks!
 
Feb 3, 2012 2:09 PM

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Shit going to get real soon huh .. I'm expecting an epic final battle ..
 
Feb 3, 2012 2:18 PM

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Nice ending need more of this !!
 
Feb 3, 2012 2:21 PM

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Damn man, Sakai is too nice to be the antagonist in this story... He feels so much more like the protagonist compared to the flame hazes who just want to kill/seal him ._.
 
Feb 3, 2012 2:35 PM

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Really liked this episode, particularly since the Flame Hazes were kept to a minimum but even above that because they showed how Yuji's character developed; and for the first time in a long time (sad considering, war is based on this yet we see none from a certain side) we see reasoning! I liked the fact that he knew his plan was a optimistic one with faults, but at least he is looking at it from all sides; It was a given that Yoshida would go for with him since she simply doesn't know when to "give up" but i was surprised that Tanaka would sympathize with his plan as well, i guess since he isn't influenced by Margery like Satou he less biased in his standing.

The wannabe "gods" were disappointing, i didn't like the first one and this three were worse, especially the guy with one leg, but all things considering it wasn't surprising that they would answer like that since without them the inevitable Flame Haze turnaround for the sake of plot would be even less realistic.

newnar said:
Finally, some sense in the dialogue. This has been an extremely rare occurrence in the recent episodes, especially with all the fucked up Flame Haze logic. None of them has explained at all why Xanadu would be a liability in the long run. Who gives a fuck if the denizens splurge in Xanadu WHEN THERE ARE NO HUMANS THERE. What the hell is wrong with the Flame Hazes. If you ask me they're just sour from the fact that their services would be rendered useless and they simply cooked up a half-assed reason which is nothing but a misinformed wild guess. Yuji's side of the story is so much more convincing and at least it doesn't suffer from major logic problems.


Isn't that the sad truth; you know i honestly am trying to find some sympathy for them but i fall short, because i can't see aside from there pride of worth any reason to fight against it; its like Yuji said this episode Shana would go against it because it was optimistic... its like being optimistic is a bad thing, not every plan is a guarantee but its better than simply sitting on your ass when it comes to working for resolution and fighting a war with NO ending, I'm so disappointed in Shana right now, she is becoming as bad as the nun and considering where she stood before this season that is a free fall decline.

CrimsonLight said:
Damn man, Sakai is too nice to be the antagonist in this story... He feels so much more like the protagonist compared to the flame hazes who just want to kill/seal him ._.


That is why we have Anti Hero's, It's really selfless if you think about it, he knows everyone will hate him or at the very least disapprove of him (Shana included) for his actions but he does it anyway, makes me hope that even if Shana has to "win" for title character sake that his plan still bears fruit.
Modified by InfiniteDestiny, Feb 3, 2012 2:44 PM
 
Feb 3, 2012 5:10 PM

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At this point it has become obvious that the stance many people have taken in this show regarding which side has a better reason to fight is most likely fueled with the person's own personal beliefs of what is right and what is just. This is why I no longer try to explain the reason why Flame Haze's motivation for fighting are in my opinion actually well founded (even though I myself support Yuji's plan).

I did notice that MAL specially seems to have been particularly 1 sided with Yuji's side, while on many other websites and forums there is a more balanced set of opinions supporting Bal Maque or the Flame Haze's. Anyways im just rambling now.

However...
newnar said:
Who gives a fuck if the denizens splurge in Xanadu WHEN THERE ARE NO HUMANS THERE. What the hell is wrong with the Flame Hazes.

Did you watch the episode? Yuji clearly mentioned how Xanadu is a complete replica of this world right down to the humans living on it.
Modified by game8910, Feb 3, 2012 5:14 PM
 
Feb 3, 2012 5:16 PM

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Loved it :'D
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Feb 3, 2012 5:54 PM

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game8910 said:
At this point it has become obvious that the stance many people have taken in this show regarding which side has a better reason to fight is most likely fueled with the person's own personal beliefs of what is right and what is just. This is why I no longer try to explain the reason why Flame Haze's motivation for fighting are in my opinion actually well founded (even though I myself support Yuji's plan).

I did notice that MAL specially seems to have been particularly 1 sided with Yuji's side, while on many other websites and forums there is a more balanced set of opinions supporting Bal Maque or the Flame Haze's. Anyways im just rambling now.


Well you most likely have said it before but could you explain to me how it is so well founded? Because lets say worse comes to worse, and the Denizens commit all kinds of reckless acts in Xanadu like on Earth and causes unbalance (even though they said it would take thousands of years...) wouldn't it be better to try to maintain that scenario through order than fight a war for no reason? War is considered success when at the end of it all you gain something from it right? you are fighting for something aside from pride or perhaps sadistic battle tendencies what are the Flame Haze's fighting for anymore? Another key thing was actually mentioned by a Flame Haze (forget who) Flame Hazes fight for their own (selfish) reasons, like Margery's revenge and such, they have no such noble desires as protecting humans, it has been seen many times that they view them as inferior beings even though they were once human...

Also the main reason i can't sympathize with the Flame Hazes doesn't even have to do with the plan per say, it pertains to the fact that they are against the very concept of peace; when Yuji was announcing his order; the stupid nun did nothing but put her head down with closed eyes and completely shut it out.. i mean its not even worth hearing out? Its like this episode when Tanaka asked why Yuji simply couldn't talk to Shana.. if she was being reasonable then perhaps she would look at both sides thus making a conversation possible but nooo...also she hasn't even given a clear cut reason for fighting all season long.

game8910 said:
However...
newnar said:
Who gives a fuck if the denizens splurge in Xanadu WHEN THERE ARE NO HUMANS THERE. What the hell is wrong with the Flame Hazes.

Did you watch the episode? Yuji clearly mentioned how Xanadu is a complete replica of this world right down to the humans living on it.


He has a point on this one, he mentioned how they've learned by living next to humans and as such he did mention that it will be exactly identical humans and all

However... the big difference which is the reason many side against the Flame Hazes's like you mentioned on MAL is because it will have free flowing existence, there will be no need to consume humans, it would be like stealing food when you got it for free, it would make no sense.
Modified by InfiniteDestiny, Feb 3, 2012 5:58 PM
 
Feb 3, 2012 7:02 PM

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Yoshida decided to help Sakai... I'm not surprised.
 
Feb 3, 2012 7:09 PM

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InfiniteDestiny said:

Well you most likely have said it before but could you explain to me how it is so well founded? Because lets say worse comes to worse, and the Denizens commit all kinds of reckless acts in Xanadu like on Earth and causes unbalance (even though they said it would take thousands of years...) wouldn't it be better to try to maintain that scenario through order than fight a war for no reason? War is considered success when at the end of it all you gain something from it right? you are fighting for something aside from pride or perhaps sadistic battle tendencies what are the Flame Haze's fighting for anymore? Another key thing was actually mentioned by a Flame Haze (forget who) Flame Hazes fight for their own (selfish) reasons, like Margery's revenge and such, they have no such noble desires as protecting humans, it has been seen many times that they view them as inferior beings even though they were once human...

Also the main reason i can't sympathize with the Flame Hazes doesn't even have to do with the plan per say, it pertains to the fact that they are against the very concept of peace; when Yuji was announcing his order; the stupid nun did nothing but put her head down with closed eyes and completely shut it out.. i mean its not even worth hearing out? Its like this episode when Tanaka asked why Yuji simply couldn't talk to Shana.. if she was being reasonable then perhaps she would look at both sides thus making a conversation possible but nooo...also she hasn't even given a clear cut reason for fighting all season long.


You mention that war is fought in order to gain, I believe this only applies to the side that starts the conflict, which in this case it would be Bal Masque. In theory flame hazes are not fighting to gain anything, thats not what "protecting" means (of course this is "flame hazes" as defined by their official role). Many Flame Hazes are bitter and angry people with legitimate reasons to hate denizes so for them to look down on them as you say sounds reasonable. Its not like they are innocent and deserve our sympathy either.

As for Sophie, well all I could say is that she is old fashioned I guess...im not going to defend her. However if you really think about it, you say they could try to talk about it and not be fighting each other but has Yuji really even given them the chance to do so? The only person Yuji ever tried to talk into joining him was Shana in episode 4, and even then he didnt ask for her input. Bal Masque started attacking Outlaw bases even before Yuji and the Snake merged...no, Bal Masque does NOT want to talk things over with anyone, they all hellbent on achieving their ambition and crush anyone that opposes it.

So I will now try to explain 1 more time why I think their reasons for fighting are legitimate.

This is how I see it, Flame Hazes are branded as "protectors of the balance" (regardless of what their real intentions are). The reason Shana still wishes to stop Yuji's plan is as already explained to prevent a disaster that "could" potentially throw every world into an even greater chaos than before. For the sake of trying to enforce the idea lets say Yuji does manage to forever keep Xanadu's peace and tomogaras never eat humans again and nothing bad ever happens again. In such a situation then credit to him, Flame Hazes really wont be needed again. Now lets assume Yuji cant prevent other denizes from consuming humans, even if they dont have the need to do so, even if Xanadu has a free flowing stream of PoE. Yuji and the snake may create an utopia that can last aeons, but in reality, even as a god, an eternal utopia is something that sounds impossible even as I type it out. Nothing can truly last for all eternity no matter what it is.

Is it better to just keep things the way they are? Seeing how I actually do wish for Yuji's plan to succeed I think I dont need to answer this. However as a Flame Haze, as someone that is supposed to prevent disasters from happening, what would they do if a catastrophe does happen and they are suddenly unable to do anything about it? As protectors of the world they would have failed their mission, as people that should have prevented this from happening, no matter how unlikely or how far afar it may happen. As Centerhill mentioned once everyone leaves for Xanadu no one will be able to know what they will do.

InfiniteDestiny said:

However... the big difference which is the reason many side against the Flame Hazes's like you mentioned on MAL is because it will have free flowing existence, there will be no need to consume humans, it would be like stealing food when you got it for free, it would make no sense.

Like I mentioned before, in a real world scenario, even if you have no need to do something it doesnt mean that there wont eventually be some kind of lunatic that will attempt something crazy. Even if Xanadu is heavily regulated, just like water eventually forms canyons drop by drop, I do not believe that this is a paradise that can last for all eternity (but I do still want to see it).

GODDAMN THIS TOOK LONG TO WRITE, its hard to argue for the sake of the opposing side...
 
Feb 3, 2012 7:21 PM

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game8910 said:
InfiniteDestiny said:

Well you most likely have said it before but could you explain to me how it is so well founded? Because lets say worse comes to worse, and the Denizens commit all kinds of reckless acts in Xanadu like on Earth and causes unbalance (even though they said it would take thousands of years...) wouldn't it be better to try to maintain that scenario through order than fight a war for no reason? War is considered success when at the end of it all you gain something from it right? you are fighting for something aside from pride or perhaps sadistic battle tendencies what are the Flame Haze's fighting for anymore? Another key thing was actually mentioned by a Flame Haze (forget who) Flame Hazes fight for their own (selfish) reasons, like Margery's revenge and such, they have no such noble desires as protecting humans, it has been seen many times that they view them as inferior beings even though they were once human...

Also the main reason i can't sympathize with the Flame Hazes doesn't even have to do with the plan per say, it pertains to the fact that they are against the very concept of peace; when Yuji was announcing his order; the stupid nun did nothing but put her head down with closed eyes and completely shut it out.. i mean its not even worth hearing out? Its like this episode when Tanaka asked why Yuji simply couldn't talk to Shana.. if she was being reasonable then perhaps she would look at both sides thus making a conversation possible but nooo...also she hasn't even given a clear cut reason for fighting all season long.


You mention that war is fought in order to gain, I believe this only applies to the side that starts the conflict, which in this case it would be Bal Masque. In theory flame hazes are not fighting to gain anything, thats not what "protecting" means (of course this is "flame hazes" as defined by their official role). Many Flame Hazes are bitter and angry people with legitimate reasons to hate denizes so for them to look down on them as you say sounds reasonable. Its not like they are innocent and deserve our sympathy either.

As for Sophie, well all I could say is that she is old fashioned I guess...im not going to defend her. However if you really think about it, you say they could try to talk about it and not be fighting each other but has Yuji really even given them the chance to do so? The only person Yuji ever tried to talk into joining him was Shana in episode 4, and even then he didnt ask for her input. Bal Masque started attacking Outlaw bases even before Yuji and the Snake merged...no, Bal Masque does NOT want to talk things over with anyone, they all hellbent on achieving their ambition and crush anyone that opposes it.

So I will now try to explain 1 more time why I think their reasons for fighting are legitimate.

This is how I see it, Flame Hazes are branded as "protectors of the balance" (regardless of what their real intentions are). The reason Shana still wishes to stop Yuji's plan is as already explained to prevent a disaster that "could" potentially throw every world into an even greater chaos than before. For the sake of trying to enforce the idea lets say Yuji does manage to forever keep Xanadu's peace and tomogaras never eat humans again and nothing bad ever happens again. In such a situation then credit to him, Flame Hazes really wont be needed again. Now lets assume Yuji cant prevent other denizes from consuming humans, even if they dont have the need to do so, even if Xanadu has a free flowing stream of PoE. Yuji and the snake may create an utopia that can last aeons, but in reality, even as a god, an eternal utopia is something that sounds impossible even as I type it out. Nothing can truly last for all eternity no matter what it is.

Is it better to just keep things the way they are? Seeing how I actually do wish for Yuji's plan to succeed I think I dont need to answer this. However as a Flame Haze, as someone that is supposed to prevent disasters from happening, what would they do if a catastrophe does happen and they are suddenly unable to do anything about it? As protectors of the world they would have failed their mission, as people that should have prevented this from happening, no matter how unlikely or how far afar it may happen. As Centerhill mentioned once everyone leaves for Xanadu no one will be able to know what they will do.

InfiniteDestiny said:

However... the big difference which is the reason many side against the Flame Hazes's like you mentioned on MAL is because it will have free flowing existence, there will be no need to consume humans, it would be like stealing food when you got it for free, it would make no sense.

Like I mentioned before, in a real world scenario, even if you have no need to do something it doesnt mean that there wont eventually be some kind of lunatic that will attempt something crazy. Even if Xanadu is heavily regulated, just like water eventually forms canyons drop by drop, I do not believe that this is a paradise that can last for all eternity (but I do still want to see it).

GODDAMN THIS TOOK LONG TO WRITE, its hard to argue for the sake of the opposing side...


Amen!! I would like to that that aeons are probably pretty short compared to the life span of the Denizens and it's only a matter of time before that energy runs our or some monomaniac decides to wage war against Yuji. . I just wonder how Yuji has managed to make a world that has seemingly unlimited energy or atleast alot of it.
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Feb 3, 2012 8:11 PM

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game8910 said:
InfiniteDestiny said:

Well you most likely have said it before but could you explain to me how it is so well founded? Because lets say worse comes to worse, and the Denizens commit all kinds of reckless acts in Xanadu like on Earth and causes unbalance (even though they said it would take thousands of years...) wouldn't it be better to try to maintain that scenario through order than fight a war for no reason? War is considered success when at the end of it all you gain something from it right? you are fighting for something aside from pride or perhaps sadistic battle tendencies what are the Flame Haze's fighting for anymore? Another key thing was actually mentioned by a Flame Haze (forget who) Flame Hazes fight for their own (selfish) reasons, like Margery's revenge and such, they have no such noble desires as protecting humans, it has been seen many times that they view them as inferior beings even though they were once human...

Also the main reason i can't sympathize with the Flame Hazes doesn't even have to do with the plan per say, it pertains to the fact that they are against the very concept of peace; when Yuji was announcing his order; the stupid nun did nothing but put her head down with closed eyes and completely shut it out.. i mean its not even worth hearing out? Its like this episode when Tanaka asked why Yuji simply couldn't talk to Shana.. if she was being reasonable then perhaps she would look at both sides thus making a conversation possible but nooo...also she hasn't even given a clear cut reason for fighting all season long.


You mention that war is fought in order to gain, I believe this only applies to the side that starts the conflict, which in this case it would be Bal Masque. In theory flame hazes are not fighting to gain anything, thats not what "protecting" means (of course this is "flame hazes" as defined by their official role). Many Flame Hazes are bitter and angry people with legitimate reasons to hate denizes so for them to look down on them as you say sounds reasonable. Its not like they are innocent and deserve our sympathy either.

As for Sophie, well all I could say is that she is old fashioned I guess...im not going to defend her. However if you really think about it, you say they could try to talk about it and not be fighting each other but has Yuji really even given them the chance to do so? The only person Yuji ever tried to talk into joining him was Shana in episode 4, and even then he didnt ask for her input. Bal Masque started attacking Outlaw bases even before Yuji and the Snake merged...no, Bal Masque does NOT want to talk things over with anyone, they all hellbent on achieving their ambition and crush anyone that opposes it.

So I will now try to explain 1 more time why I think their reasons for fighting are legitimate.

This is how I see it, Flame Hazes are branded as "protectors of the balance" (regardless of what their real intentions are). The reason Shana still wishes to stop Yuji's plan is as already explained to prevent a disaster that "could" potentially throw every world into an even greater chaos than before. For the sake of trying to enforce the idea lets say Yuji does manage to forever keep Xanadu's peace and tomogaras never eat humans again and nothing bad ever happens again. In such a situation then credit to him, Flame Hazes really wont be needed again. Now lets assume Yuji cant prevent other denizes from consuming humans, even if they dont have the need to do so, even if Xanadu has a free flowing stream of PoE. Yuji and the snake may create an utopia that can last aeons, but in reality, even as a god, an eternal utopia is something that sounds impossible even as I type it out. Nothing can truly last for all eternity no matter what it is.

Is it better to just keep things the way they are? Seeing how I actually do wish for Yuji's plan to succeed I think I dont need to answer this. However as a Flame Haze, as someone that is supposed to prevent disasters from happening, what would they do if a catastrophe does happen and they are suddenly unable to do anything about it? As protectors of the world they would have failed their mission, as people that should have prevented this from happening, no matter how unlikely or how far afar it may happen. As Centerhill mentioned once everyone leaves for Xanadu no one will be able to know what they will do.

InfiniteDestiny said:

However... the big difference which is the reason many side against the Flame Hazes's like you mentioned on MAL is because it will have free flowing existence, there will be no need to consume humans, it would be like stealing food when you got it for free, it would make no sense.

Like I mentioned before, in a real world scenario, even if you have no need to do something it doesnt mean that there wont eventually be some kind of lunatic that will attempt something crazy. Even if Xanadu is heavily regulated, just like water eventually forms canyons drop by drop, I do not believe that this is a paradise that can last for all eternity (but I do still want to see it).

GODDAMN THIS TOOK LONG TO WRITE, its hard to argue for the sake of the opposing side...


Well i gotta say it was informative for a argument for the Flame Hazes provided with reason, but even so i still can't buy there way of thinking. You mentioned how if some lunatic went wild and started causing problems right? well lets say that does happen that there are leaks in Yuji's "rule" wouldn't it take many of them for it to even make a difference, i doubt a few incidents would mean anything to the overall balance. As for eternity.. well i don't know exactly why you agree with Yuji plan yourself but from my standpoint i would say that thousands of years of paradise is better than an eternity of crap; and the world could end tomorrow for all they know; they are looking thousands of years in the future when they can't even maintain the present.

Your view on Flame Haze's and humans was interesting; so would you say that distaste is jealousy? since humans (well most anyway) have the lives Flame Hazes have lost and can never regain, even an ordinary life might appease to a Flame Haze, yet since they can't have it they hate them for it? I suppose Margery just gave off a bad example, her killing that little Flame Haze last season didn't help her cause either; it just appears that they are truly selfish; like they forgot what it means to be human (don't misunderstand, humans can be SELFISH as hell, but what i meant was other things such as emotions and such).

As for the whole conversing and trying to talk things over; if The Flame Hazes gave a white flag and no i don't mean surrender their whole army so you can slaughter us, but send a "representative" like Shana to talk with Yuji, then that's one way and I'm sure there are many others; i guess my point was that they showed zero interest in such a conversation, they didn't care about Yuji's side from the get go. Also i don't think they attacked Outlaw before he merged since; its implied he merged at the end of last season when he "chose" Shana before he left.

Also wouldn't you say that Shana's approach is as the SoF put it "naive", i mean she is fighting him for the reason you gave to prevent a possible disaster but she doesn't even know what she wants after that, its like i mentioned, they are looking so far ahead to the potential future without even giving care to the messed up present; Lets say they beat Yuji, everything goes there way; what do they do go straight back to their eternal war like nothing happened?

War is fought for gain by the initiators; this i can agree to however; would you say the "protectors" are protecting humans and existence or their own sense of worth and perhaps even there pride?

BXRBudda said:
Amen!! I would like to that that aeons are probably pretty short compared to the life span of the Denizens and it's only a matter of time before that energy runs our or some monomaniac decides to wage war against Yuji. . I just wonder how Yuji has managed to make a world that has seemingly unlimited energy or atleast alot of it.


I think the Reiji Maigo ties into the plan for limitless existence, since the SoF failed before but this time believes it will be successful, i think the reasoning for this is because of his knowledge of the "rift" and the presence of the Reiji Maigo.
 
Feb 3, 2012 9:22 PM

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InfiniteDestiny said:

Well i gotta say it was informative for a argument for the Flame Hazes provided with reason, but even so i still can't buy there way of thinking. You mentioned how if some lunatic went wild and started causing problems right? well lets say that does happen that there are leaks in Yuji's "rule" wouldn't it take many of them for it to even make a difference, i doubt a few incidents would mean anything to the overall balance. As for eternity.. well i don't know exactly why you agree with Yuji plan yourself but from my standpoint i would say that thousands of years of paradise is better than an eternity of crap; and the world could end tomorrow for all they know; they are looking thousands of years in the future when they can't even maintain the present.

I do agree with your "thousands of years of paradise is better than an eternity of crap" views, remember that my previous post is me trying to express why I personally dont find the Flame Haze views as "weak" as you do. I dont deny that Yuji has the stronger case in this situation but I wont go as far as to claim the Flame Hazes reasons are dumb. I guess it all boils down to our own views on what is right like I said before.

InfiniteDestiny said:

Your view on Flame Haze's and humans was interesting; so would you say that distaste is jealousy? since humans (well most anyway) have the lives Flame Hazes have lost and can never regain, even an ordinary life might appease to a Flame Haze, yet since they can't have it they hate them for it? I suppose Margery just gave off a bad example, her killing that little Flame Haze last season didn't help her cause either; it just appears that they are truly selfish; like they forgot what it means to be human (don't misunderstand, humans can be SELFISH as hell, but what i meant was other things such as emotions and such).

I think you misunderstood, I didnt say they were jealous. The reasons why a flame haze would look down upon a tomogara would come from the hatred they harbour for them in general. I mean they became flame hazes BECAUSE their kind destroyed things important to them as humans. Its like early Margery who went around killing all denizens due to her hatred. The poor flame haze that died last season was pretty much used as a decon that allowed Synoday and Margery to retreat...she was not going to let some kid put her life in dander before getting her revenge.

InfiniteDestiny said:

As for the whole conversing and trying to talk things over; if The Flame Hazes gave a white flag and no i don't mean surrender their whole army so you can slaughter us, but send a "representative" like Shana to talk with Yuji, then that's one way and I'm sure there are many others; i guess my point was that they showed zero interest in such a conversation, they didn't care about Yuji's side from the get go. Also i don't think they attacked Outlaw before he merged since; its implied he merged at the end of last season when he "chose" Shana before he left.

Check season 2 episode 17, Synodai was already ambushing Outlaw offices since then.
As for trying to talk things over...again I dont think it would work, even if you sent Shana. Yuji's words and actions throughout the season have made it clear that he is not going to change his stance, he is being as stubborn as Shana is right now and some of the older Flame Hazes know this (like Sophie). Lets say that they do get to talk, the whole point would be trying to find some kind of common ground between both sides, but as I said, Yuji and Bal Masque are hellbent on carrying this out the way they planned for all of these years without any modifications.

InfiniteDestiny said:

Also wouldn't you say that Shana's approach is as the SoF put it "naive", i mean she is fighting him for the reason you gave to prevent a possible disaster but she doesn't even know what she wants after that, its like i mentioned, they are looking so far ahead to the potential future without even giving care to the messed up present; Lets say they beat Yuji, everything goes there way; what do they do go straight back to their eternal war like nothing happened?

No you are right, snake mentions it himself...her views sound like a fairy tale and he does not accept it. But also think about it the other way, Centerhill also said that he cannot agree with the views of a "naive" god that thinks he can create an innocent new world and keep it stable forever.
As for remaining in this eternal struggle...well being a "protector" of the status quo entails that radical change is not welcome either. In this case the problem comes from the core definition of what a Flame Haze is so I cannot really argue against it. Again, im just trying to put their perspectives into a clearer light even if I know they are flawed at times.

InfiniteDestiny said:

War is fought for gain by the initiators; this i can agree to however; would you say the "protectors" are protecting humans and existence or their own sense of worth and perhaps even there pride?

There is no doubt that there are people like that, but that is not the case for any of our current flame haze protagonists since they are all clearly fighting for other reasons now.
 
Feb 3, 2012 9:26 PM

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I see why everyone is siding with the Denizens as I am too. But what if Yuji's own intent is different from the Snake of the Festival? What IF he actually wants to just trap every Denizen in there and send them to oblivion? And if not him the Snake of the Festival's intent is to do just that? Or what if he DOES create this new world but something/someone destroys it in the process? Killing all of the Denizens. What would happen then? o_0
"Ogon’ po gotovnosti!"
 
Feb 3, 2012 10:15 PM

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game8910 said:

I do agree with your "thousands of years of paradise is better than an eternity of crap" views, remember that my previous post is me trying to express why I personally dont find the Flame Haze views as "weak" as you do. I dont deny that Yuji has the stronger case in this situation but I wont go as far as to claim the Flame Hazes reasons are dumb. I guess it all boils down to our own views on what is right like I said before.


I suppose my reasoning for not being as open as you are to both sides is because of it appears that all Flame Hazes are as "old fashioned" as you said and stubborn as Sophie, and Shana isn't helping matter by being naive with her concept of a resolution.

game8910 said:

I think you misunderstood, I didn't say they were jealous. The reasons why a flame haze would look down upon a tomogara would come from the hatred they harbour for them in general. I mean they became flame hazes BECAUSE their kind destroyed things important to them as humans. Its like early Margery who went around killing all denizens due to her hatred. The poor flame haze that died last season was pretty much used as a decon that allowed Synoday and Margery to retreat...she was not going to let some kid put her life in dander before getting her revenge.


I guess i did misunderstand, but at the same time i also think it can be perceived as jealousy, because while this may not apply to the Flame Haze's it isn't so unnatural for one to be jealous of someone else having something you lost, its a nasty trait but very common especially since they used to be human. I also see your point about Margery, but at the same time i find it ironic that she is mad at Yuji (it was in the dialogue last episode, i forgot word for word what she said though) when she was the one who was ignorant the whole time.

game8910 said:
No you are right, snake mentions it himself...her views sound like a fairy tale and he does not accept it. But also think about it the other way, Centerhill also said that he cannot agree with the views of a "naive" god that thinks he can create an innocent new world and keep it stable forever.
As for remaining in this eternal struggle...well being a "protector" of the status quo entails that radical change is not welcome either. In this case the problem comes from the core definition of what a Flame Haze is so I cannot really argue against it. Again, im just trying to put their perspectives into a clearer light even if I know they are flawed at times.


You are doing a much better job than i could at putting their perspectives to light, but even with light as bright as the sun you said it yourself its sometimes flawed which is what i think applies here, Shana is way too naive; If Yuji is an optimist for his plan for paradise, than Shana is naive for thinking she could come up with something better by defeating him. The problem here for me is that it appears like she can't give actual reasoning like Yuji did this entire episode; so instead she figures if i win i'm right... kinda like what Yuji said this episode; the winner gets what they desire.

game8910 said:
There is no doubt that there are people like that, but that is not the case for any of our current flame haze protagonists since they are all clearly fighting for other reasons now.


I would have to disagree with this one; last episode they gave practically no reason in a episode dedicated to revising their "reasons"; what i made out of it was "we are too deep into this fight, so we can't back out now"... ya that sounds nice and all, but it really doesn't do to well for reasoning which should be able to stand on par with Yuji's reason, in terms of resolve i think its a no contest, since i view their reasons as shallow. Shana may be the only one with a reason, granted her reason is naive but at least it still exists.
 
Feb 3, 2012 10:35 PM

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Well, this looks like fun.

As much as I like Yuji's good intentions, I err on the side of caution. And that's just me. If I were charged with protecting the balance of a universe, I'd probably opt to strike prior to anything bad happening, given the history of the PoE-consuming denizens.

Maybe it's just me but while I trust Yuji personally, I do not trust the majority of the Denizens under his command. Even in this episode he already shows a level of mistrust of them that I think is a red flag.

What Yuji is doing is satisfying the desires of his subordinates ... sure, that's great. Give them all the free-flowing PoE that you want in some alternate world that may or may not have human copies in them. What are they going to do with this power of existence? As far as I recall, Denizens only expend Power of Existence while outside of their own dimension, which is one of the reasons they seek more. But we've already seen what entities can do with power of existence: it's manifested as ... well, power.

If you throw a bunch of power-hungry denizens into a pocket universe where they can all consume as much as they want, they'll probably end up in a state of perpetual war. One of the things that bothers me about Yuji's plan is that even if he can bring these Denizens to the other world, who's to say that they wouldn't end up coming back? The Denizens by nature are a curious folk, and unless a path is permanently and unfailingly closed (which I doubt is possible considering how everyone just seems to be warping to and fro from worlds and whatnot this season), it would only take a few rogue Denizens to screw up Yuji's entire plan. Some crafty Denizen might just meander back to the human world in order to enjoy the comforts of being availed as a true god rather than being the equal of countless other denizens in a world full of freeflowing PoE. What would make this worse for the Hazes remaining in the human world is that these rogue Denizens would probably be unfathomably powerful after soaking up in the utopia PoE rays for a few thousand millenia.
 
Feb 4, 2012 12:15 AM
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This episode reminded me why I loved the Shakugan no Shana series so much. Unfortunately its coming to an end soon... :(
 
Feb 4, 2012 1:11 AM

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Ciddypoo pretty much explained the potential clusterfuck right here, wait didn't this same situation but on a elevated level happen in Fairy Tail?

But if a situation like that did happen wouldn't the Flame Hazes in the eternal POE realm be just as powerful? And more saner i might add.

 
Feb 4, 2012 5:28 AM

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I dont understand a thing =D :D =D :D =D :D
 
Feb 4, 2012 10:18 AM

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Back when I saw Shana 1 and 2, I thought the Flame Hazes were the good guys and the tomogara the bad guys. Now, all of it have changed. Honestly, each episode the Flame Hazes appear to be more villains in my eyes.

Why can't they just accept that the Tomogara go to Xanadu?; why can't they at least have a conversation with Yuuji/Snake of the Festival?, only fighting, fighting and pointless deaths.

And the 3 new gods of this episode were boring and dull, like the nun.
 
Feb 4, 2012 11:01 AM

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I'm curious as to why everyone has only warm fuzzy feelings for Yuji's plan. He's stepping on fingers and toes to get what he wants. He is still an anti-hero at best, and he's walking that line where he has to really decide whether ends justify means.

Bal Masque had been attacking Outlaw outposts all over the world prior to the start of the season. We even see the Shanghai part get wrecked.

Yuji goes to have the 'conversation' with Shana and co, attacks and disables Wilhelmina and Margery, then tries to force Shana to join him. When she declines, they fight. In the end, Shana ends up kidnapped, Alastor is taken away, and Margery is in a coma.

Then the Hazes find out that Yuji is amassing a huge army of Denizens that begin to attack, leaving their homebase mostly unsecured.

So, where is the part where I'm supposed to just have another talk with Yuji and see if we can iron out differences? The Hazes and Yuji are both diametrically opposed, and as much as Yuji wants to call stubbornness on the Hazes, it goes the same way. Shana didn't want to have anything to do with Yuji's plan in episode 4 and look what happened to her -- Alastor taken from her, treated like a doll and attacked by Hecate. Yuji will not be able to control all of his little minions forever.

All of this nice-Yuji stuff also hinges on the assumption that Yuji and the Snake of Festival are actually separate and that Yuji's persona still even exists. Obviously there's parts of him here and there since as a Torch he would've been forgotten if his PoE had completely extinguished but ... hey, what if the guy really was possessed by the Snake? He wouldn't be able to tell. That's not something I'd wanna gamble with given all the crap that he's done this season.

His activities aren't all sunshine and rainbows. He has funnel-vision just like the Hazes, but he's starting more fires than he's putting out at the moment and will continue to do so in the near foreseeable future.
 
Feb 4, 2012 11:45 AM

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Well, all the fighting would stop if the Tomogara went to Xanadu but for some strange reason the Flame Haze don't want that.

Oh, and the conversation with Shana and Yuuji was interrupted by Margery and Wilhemina.

 
Feb 4, 2012 1:42 PM

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This pretty much sums up what i feel ( hope it doesnt spoil anything)


Sure they have every right to fear this insane plan the snake/yuji has. They've been fighting for so long that they see no other way. Thats why yuji is practically an extremist right now. And i feel this extremist to be just.
Modified by Arkychan, Feb 4, 2012 4:39 PM
"How electrifying"
 
Feb 4, 2012 3:26 PM

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Arkychan said:
the final light novel reveals

Stop drop and roll. Or at least put a tag before everything else. I stopped reading right there.
 
Feb 4, 2012 5:14 PM

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This anime is starting to feel more like Darker than Black: Gemini of the Meteor with the way things are progressing.
 
Feb 4, 2012 5:33 PM

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Arkychan said:
This pretty much sums up what i feel ( hope it doesnt spoil anything)

Thanks for posting that. I already knew how the novels ended thanks to some lurking on animesuki but didn't understand well why the Flame Hazes were so stubborn.
 
Feb 4, 2012 6:20 PM

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I like when Tanaka opens his eyes.

Anyways, great ep as usual.. looking forward to the next ^-^
 
Feb 4, 2012 7:36 PM

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Linkark07 said:
Well, all the fighting would stop if the Tomogara went to Xanadu but for some strange reason the Flame Haze don't want that.


Yuuji's goal is to create a copy of the real world where all denizen will be 'exiled' to.

This copy will be free of flame haze as flame haze are human linked to tomogara that stay in Guze, it is then impossible for Yuuji to create a link between the copy of a flame haze and the tomogara he/she is normal contracted with. In return this is one of the flaw with the scripting as a complete copy shouldn't be able to be made if flame haze never existed since how they influenced the world's history in the shadow for ages.

Denizen and humans will lives together, tomogara won't have to eat human since there will be as much power of existence as they want in the air.
That truly sound good but this got flaw which give good reason to Shana for wanting to stop it.

Yuuji's plan imply that human and tomogara will be able to live together in harmony. Even if things go well for a while there is bound to be conflict between human and tomogara in the long run.
(Going to refer to flame haze as FH from now on)
Xanadu will be situated between the FH world and Guze, if Xanadu is unstable it will then dramatically affect both the FH world and Guze and FH will have no way to do anything as FH will not exist in Xanadu.

Legitimate reason for FH side : In present time FH have a mean to protect the balance and the world. Yuuji promise peace in Xanadu but if he lose control of it and the balance is endangered then the FH world, Guze and Xanadu will get destroyed without either Guze or the FH being able to act.

Also is it morally right to clone a world? In our world cloning is morally debatable so why wouldn't it here?

People that say that Yuuji and the FH should talk definitively didn't get something straight, something that was clear at start but was forgotten with this season: The tomogara ain't friendly.
Remember how tomogara were before Yuuji actually took the king position?
Tomogara feed off human and enjoy it, the only reason they stick with Yuuji and stoped eating human is because Yuuji promised them something much grander.

Even though Xanadu coincide with Yuuji's wish, it is to say that this is not the reason why the tomogara listen to Yuuji. Most tomogara do not wish for a world to live in peace with human, they want power of existence and the freedom of doing whatever they want.

Yuuji trying to make a deal with FH could be very badly seen on his side and he could lose the authority he gained.

I understand Yuuji, if I were in his shoes I would probably do the same. Xanadu might lead to the world's end but the world's end will happen eventually even without Xanadu's creation.
Xanadu promise to give a temporary solution to the problem which they could be working on while it last.

I'm siding with Yuuji but I'm understanding the FH's worries. The problem is a lack of communication which can't be solved due to the position both party are.

Sweet another tl;dr on me.
 
Feb 4, 2012 8:23 PM

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The final battle is close, good episode.
 
Feb 4, 2012 10:49 PM

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Go go Yuji.
 
Feb 5, 2012 12:17 AM

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For all i care, i just can't wait to see how would things turn out in the end. And it's quite near to it. I love this series though, it's something that won't change. {B)
 
Feb 5, 2012 12:21 AM

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Just guessing Yuji is really just bullshitting. He's just sacrificing himself to get rid all of this denizen stuff cause he knows that Shana can stop him.


 
Feb 5, 2012 2:01 AM

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Dat Tanaka eyes.
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I CAN ALWAYS SHOW MY EVERYTHING TO YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUU
 
Feb 5, 2012 9:44 AM

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Best episode so far. Yuji better win
 
Feb 5, 2012 11:01 AM

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Good episode. I prefer these development episodes more than the fighting episode to be honest.

Also too much big posts in this topic >_>. The pros and cons of Yuji's world are simple. Don't know why you guys are making huge posts about it. lol

New world pros and cons
PROS: Lots of powers of existence to live off so human consumption is not needed.
CONS: Bad guys "might" still hunt humans, creating unbalance again.
NOTES: Humans will be cloned in the new world.

Arctic_Wolf said:

I like when Tanaka opens his eyes.

Anyways, great ep as usual.. looking forward to the next ^-^

LOL.
 
Feb 5, 2012 3:42 PM

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awesome episode go Yuji!!! can't wait for another war o_O!
 
Feb 5, 2012 6:24 PM
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Centerhill is spelt Centrehill everyone.
 
Feb 5, 2012 6:46 PM
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jahern1 said:
Centerhill is spelt Centrehill everyone.


Both spellings are acceptable.
bla bla bla
The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.
Niko-kun said:
On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard?
 
Feb 5, 2012 10:45 PM
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Yuji a Boss!!!!
 
Feb 5, 2012 11:25 PM

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InfiniteDestiny said:
Another key thing was actually mentioned by a Flame Haze (forget who) Flame Hazes fight for their own (selfish) reasons, like Margery's revenge and such, they have no such noble desires as protecting humans, it has been seen many times that they view them as inferior beings even though they were once human...


Saying that the Flame Hazes are inferior beings reminds me of what Shana said to Yuji very early on in the first season.
Shana: I'm only a flame haze. Nothing more. In a way I'm the same as a torch.
Yuji Sakai: Why do you keep saying only. Just stop it.
Shana: Because it's the truth. You're only a torch. And I'm only a flame Haze. Nothing more.

The Flame Hazes seem to feel like they're inferior beings, so they need something to make it seem what they're doing worth it.
Modified by Zfish9, Feb 5, 2012 11:35 PM
 
Feb 6, 2012 12:30 AM

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I really can't believe that the Shakugan no Shana that I loved in the first two seasons is really going in a direction like this and for an ending like this. From episode 1 of the third season I have felt like I am watching a completely different anime from Shakugan no Shana. It just feels so different from what it used to be, and I miss the way it used to be. I am really disappointed in where the series has gone, and I don't know if it can really fix itself. I don't like how I think it is going to end at all.
 
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