| I've never found any anime to be pretentious. Bad, maybe. But not pretentious. |
ShaolinRibiero said: I'll shut up about the film for now, watch it again, and then write, in excruciating detail, all the things that sucked about it. How does that sound to you? Unnecessary. Why waste your time? |
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ShaolinRibiero said: You know, I'm a little tired of all the Princess Mononoke fanboys aggressively defending their cherished Studio Ghibli classic whenever I present reasons for why I disliked the film. And indeed, it has been some years since I watched it. It's rather your insistence everyone who likes it are idiots and you're the only one seeing things correctly that is bothersome. That and your apparent misogeny. You can hate on it as much as you want, doesn't decrease my enjoyment of it in the least. Mononoke-hime might be a bit too clear with its message, but considering most anime have pretty much no messages beyond the point of "embrace your dreams" or "don't alienate yourself from The Collective", I'd say that's a good thing. Others may disagree. It's even very good at being nuanced with its approach to all sides - like Ghibli, and especially Miyazaki always are. And pretentious? Not in the least. There's a difference, as Leuconoe said, between something pretentious and something hitting you with the message like an anvil. Only pretentious anime I can think of is Ergo Proxy. Which might stem from my incomprehension to see the underlying themes, but until someone shows me how namedropping Husserl and Derrida had anything at all to do with the story, and how these dream-sequences said anything we didn't already know, I'll stand by that assessment. url_elf said: ShaolinRibiero said: I'll shut up about the film for now, watch it again, and then write, in excruciating detail, all the things that sucked about it. How does that sound to you? Unnecessary. Why waste your time? ShaolinRibiero said: What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment, [...] I guess that's why. |
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Kaiserpingvin said: It's rather your insistence everyone who likes it are idiots and you're the only one seeing things correctly that is bothersome. I think you need to learn how to read. Better yet, if you can actually quote anything by me that supports this ludicrous assertion, I'll agree to never write anything about your precious "Princess Mononoke" ever again. Deal? I think the problem is that I've insulted the immortal classic "Princess Mononoke", and by extension, you think I've insulted you as a human being. Grow up. Kaiserpingvin said: That and your apparent misogeny. I'm not sure what "misogeny" is, but if it's anything like "misogyny", then that's the most moronic accusation I can think of. It's even stupider than you claiming that I think anyone who disagrees with me about an anime film is an idiot, or that I've ever written anything to that effect. Princess Mononoke is indeed man-hating, and all the ridiculous non-sequitir insults by you aren't going to change that. The male characters were stupid and evil, with one exception. The one exception had a very feminine personality. Most of the female characters were sensible and kind, with perhaps one or two exceptions. The one or two exceptions had very butch, masculine personalities. How can that be any more clear? KaiserPig said: You can hate on it as much as you want, doesn't decrease my enjoyment of it in the least. Funny, sounds like something I once wrote |
YoungVagabondAug 24, 2008 2:59 PM
ShaolinRibiero said: KaiserPig said: You can hate on it as much as you want, doesn't decrease my enjoyment of it in the least. Funny, sounds like something I once wrote God damn. The sheer amount of win in this is such that it burned my eyes out. |
| I'm back. |
AnimusNathan said: Almost all Ghibli films make males look evil and idiotic. Their target audience is probably females, in which case it makes sense. EDIT: except maybe Grave of the fireflies. I'm convinced that you're mistaking the feminist themes of Miyazaki's films for male-bashing. Just off the spot I can point out Pazu (Laputa), Haku (Spirited Away) and Ashitaka (Princess Mononoke) right now as examples of non-evil, non-idioitic males from the Ghibli films. |
ShaolinRibiero said: I think you need to learn how to read. Better yet, if you can actually quote anything by me that supports this ludicrous assertion, I'll agree to never write anything about your precious "Princess Mononoke" ever again. Deal? I think the problem is that I've insulted the immortal classic "Princess Mononoke", and by extension, you think I've insulted you as a human being. Grow up. ShaolinRibiero said: In reality, it's mental garbage for eight year olds. ShaolinRibiero said: Well, if arrogant, pretentious fans like yourself are any indication, I was even more correct about "Princess Mononoke" than I originally thought. ShaolinRibiero said: Don't project your own weaknesses and self-imposed limitations as a writer onto me. You continuosly insult anyone who argues with you. I maybe read a bit too much into that but it sure seems like you think we're morons. Since you say that's not the case, I guess it isn't, but that means you should think about your tone. ShaolinRibiero said: I'm not sure what "misogeny" is, but if it's anything like "misogyny", then that's the most moronic accusation I can think of. It's even stupider than you claiming that I think anyone who disagrees with me about an anime film is an idiot, or that I've ever written anything to that effect. Princess Mononoke is indeed man-hating, and all the ridiculous non-sequitir insults by you aren't going to change that. The male characters were stupid and evil, with one exception. The one exception had a very feminine personality. Most of the female characters were sensible and kind, with perhaps one or two exceptions. The one or two exceptions had very butch, masculine personalities. How can that be any more clear? Ah, thanks, I was unsure on the spelling of that word. I'll retract my statement, beg my pardon for having been impolite. The keyword was "apparent", you seemed quite upset by the idea of strong women. (Also, for future reference, it's non sequitur.) Frankly, I can't see this at all. Yes, the men were generally weak of mind and the women strong in the same. So what? It treats them all with dignity. None of them were portrayed as "evil", indeed it shied away from absolute ethics. It portrays them all as human (in the more narrow emotive sense of the word). Compared to how women are generally portrayed in anime the strong women of Ghibli are a fresh wind. Also, Ashitaka might be the most strong-of-heart character I know of, "despite" being the male lead. Whether the traits of each individual character are "feminine" or not is unimportant, such labels are all social constructs whichever way. The feminism is very overobvious. It is certainly not man-hating. And no, not pretentious. Not that you can be convinced by these mere words. Not that your view is wrong. Nor is mine or anyone elses (unless they take extraordinary liberties of interpretation which defies even the Humpty Dumpty theory of meaning). There isn't a single way to view a piece of art - truth is subjective or nonexistent in aesthetics. So stop belittling us with differing views. |
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ShaolinRibiero said: What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment, plus I watched most of those shows (with the exception of Air Master and some of the Naruto) when I was between 10-14 years old, on a weekly or daily basis. I'm 21 years old now. Don't judge me, heh. I'm not proud of my viewing choices at that age, either. LOL. I can understand not being proud of the stuff you watched when you were younger. Even so, are you claiming that you hated them when you were 14, or that you started to hate them much later on? As for Mononoke Hime, I don't mind the fact that you hate it. I just want to know if you're hate is based purely on personal opinion, or if you are backing your perspective with valid arguments (examples would be nice as they prove that your looking at the movie in detail). Either is fine as your entitled to your opinion. I'm just curious if I missed something whilst watching the movie is all. With regards to it being man-hating though, I don't actually think it is. But then again, I wonder why there's any problem if it is actually man-hating as you say. Women have had the worst of everything that men can dish out for countless eons, so one or two movies where men are depicted as the bad guys are like a drop of water against the ocean. It seems to me that you feel the movie emasculates you in some way, something which I've never noticed. I found Ashitaka to be a strong lead male, with many admirable qualities - honest, reliable, honourable, protective, strong. Unless I'm mistaken, they're all traditional male qualities are they not? Likewise, the other men weren't portrayed as "evil" or "weak" as you say. They were portrayed as simple, rural people, like the kind you'd find in back country India, Bangladesh, Thailand, etc, right now in fact. There's nothing particularly good or bad about them, just like there's nothing particularly good or bad about anyone you might meet on the street. They're just people doing what people do, and Ghibli is generally good at capturing that atmosphere in it's movies. I guess that's why Ghibli movies appeal to many people of many different backgrounds, ages, creeds, etc, both male and female alike. They're people oriented, so saying they're sexist towards men is a bit of an oxymoron, especially given the fact that the main message of the movie is environmental rather than gender specific. AnimusNathan said: Almost all Ghibli films make males look evil and idiotic. Their target audience is probably females, in which case it makes sense. EDIT: except maybe Grave of the fireflies. I'm curious how someone who has only seen three Ghibli movies can make that claim, especially considering the following: Whispers of the Heart - no bad people in it at all My Neighbour Totoro - likewise, no bad people in it at all Spirited Away - the "bad" person was actually a witch called Yu-Baaba, and she wasn't actually bad in the normal sense. The Cat Returns - If cats count, then the male lead was a very strong good guy. Kiki's Delivery Service - no real bad people at all. Howl's moving Castle - the bad person was a witch (hint: this means she's female). Gedo Senki - Men were both good and bad guys. Pom Poko - it's actually "man" as a species that's portrayed as the bad guy. Only Yesterday - no real bad people at all. I'm curious if you still want to maintain your claim that Ghibli are man haters, as it seems to me that you're simply trying to jump on the bandwagon here. |
ArchaeonAug 24, 2008 5:08 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Kaiserpingvin said: You continuosly insult anyone who argues with you. I maybe read a bit too much into that but it sure seems like you think we're morons. Since you say that's not the case, I guess it isn't, but that means you should think about your tone. Way to quote things COMPLETELY out of context. The first part was a specific statement about the film, and not anyone who disagreed with me. The second quote was in response to someone who suggested I was too stupid to understand "Princess Mononoke". The third quote had to do with someone who chastised me for using profanity when describing parts of "Princess Mononoke". Honestly, with that last one, I should have just linked them to this very educational video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBC3hM1CLEA So, thanks for playing, but you're wrong. Next time, try reading the context of someone's quotes, instead of glossing over that. KaiserPig said: Ah, thanks, I was unsure on the spelling of that word. I'll retract my statement, beg my pardon for having been impolite. The keyword was "apparent", you seemed quite upset by the idea of strong women. (Also, for future reference, it's non sequitur.) Again, where do you get this? I'm not upset by anything, but I hate simplistic, polemical representations in ANY media, not just anime. When I watched "Princess Mononoke", it seems the film thought I was a retarded 8 year old, and was preaching to me what I should believe in. Hey, I don't mind preaching, as long as the message is good, and the film devises a creative, intelligent, and mature way of showcasing it. Princess Mononoke failed miserably in that regard, and hence it gets the label of pretentious; a movie that tries to have a powerful, overarching message, but fails by being overloaded with silly cliches, buzzwords, and naive ideas. KaiserPig said: Frankly, I can't see this at all. Yes, the men were generally weak of mind and the women strong in the same. Once again, you missed my main point. I like Black Lagoon a lot, and women are generally exulted over men in that series. What's the difference here? It's the same thing I keep mentioning over and over in this topic, and which you and the rest of the Mononoke fans keep ignoring; the men who don't suck in Princess Mononoke have feminine characteristics, while the women who suck in PM have masculine characteristics. It's the same reason Charles Dickens is considered by most literary scholars to be an early feminist writer; traditionally masculine characteristics are portrayed as idiotic and harmful. KaiserPig said: The feminism is very overobvious. It is certainly not man-hating. And no, not pretentious. I don't get this. You admit there's an abundance of feminism in the film, but it's not man-hating? What? KaiserPig said: So stop belittling us with differing views. Yeah, how dare I belittle you with my pernicious, DIFFERING view. Clearly, I should just have the SAME view as everyone else, in which case no one will be belittled. I'll repeat this again; grow up. Edit Archaeon said: LOL. I can understand not being proud of the stuff you watched when you were younger. Even so, are you claiming that you hated them when you were 14, or that you started to hate them much later on? You know how it is when you're younger; something is on television, or a friend has it on tape, and being a stupid, bored kid, you watch it. I was never a huge fan of any of those, but it was on, I watched it, and didn't hate it enough as a kid to stop. It's the same reason most people think "Captain Planet" is a shitty cartoon, but everyone watched it as a kid, just because it was on all the time. I probably would have given DBZ and Kenshin a rating of 5 or 6 when I was a kid. Now, they're a 3 and a 2, respectively. Seems about right. Archaeon said: I found Ashitaka to be a strong lead male, with many admirable qualities - honest, reliable, honourable, protective, strong. Unless I'm mistaken, they're all traditional male qualities are they not? I strongly disagree here. I should probably re-watch it so I can think of specific instances, but he seemed to me to be a very feminine individual, who was far more concerned with feelings and emotions, instead of what was logical and just. |
YoungVagabondAug 24, 2008 5:29 PM
| I wonder how many ppl will or have said the perfection that is Code Geass. |
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CCs_No1_Fanboy said: I wonder how many ppl will or have said the perfection that is Code Geass. There are anime that are better than Code Geass in its kind, thus it's not perfection :P |
∞      ∞ |
Monkey_D_Luffy said: CCs_No1_Fanboy said: I wonder how many ppl will or have said the perfection that is Code Geass. There are anime that are better than Code Geass in its kind, thus it's not perfection :P Agreed. Though Code Geass have been and will always be my favorite anime. |
ShaolinRibiero said: I strongly disagree here. I should probably re-watch it so I can think of specific instances, but he seemed to me to be a very feminine individual, who was far more concerned with feelings and emotions, instead of what was logical and just. To be honest I found the qualities you're talking about made him more of a man, rather than less, especially in light of the fact that, although he preferred not to engage in combat, he wouldn't hesitate to put himself in harm's way, or even kill for if it was necessary. That he's concerned with people's feelings just means that he isn't a mindless, muscle bound oaf who's only thoughts are killing, getting laid, and proving how much of a "man" he really is. If the men in Mononoke Hime were portrayed in that light, then your argument about sexism would have some very definite grounds. As it is, even though there is a feminist streak in the movie, that doesn't automatically mean that there is a sexist element. I once had the privilege of being able to ask Germaine Greer about the difference between feminism and sexism, and she's definitely not a man hater. Believe me, there's a big difference between the two. One other thing that should be noted is the change in society itself. If you compare PM to an earlier Ghibli movie, Laputa for example, then it's actually a lot clearer in Laputa that the male characters have more traditional male persona's. Over the last ten years or so though, traditional roles across the world have changed dramatically, and where women have become more empowered and have adopted more "manly" qualities (drinking, fighting and sleeping around not being some of them), men themselves have become more "effeminate" (there's a fad for wearing pink shirts for crying out loud - I mean pink?!?!?). The characters in Ghibli movies tend to be more reflective of the time they were made than most other anime, or so I've noticed :) |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
ShaolinRibiero said: KaiserPingvin said: Ah, thanks, I was unsure on the spelling of that word. I'll retract my statement, beg my pardon for having been impolite. The keyword was "apparent", you seemed quite upset by the idea of strong women. (Also, for future reference, it's non sequitur.) Again, where do you get this? I'm not upset by anything, but I hate simplistic, polemical representations in ANY media, not just anime. When I watched "Princess Mononoke", it seems the film thought I was a retarded 8 year old, and was preaching to me what I should believe in. Hey, I don't mind preaching, as long as the message is good, and the film devises a creative, intelligent, and mature way of showcasing it. Princess Mononoke failed miserably in that regard, and hence it gets the label of pretentious; a movie that tries to have a powerful, overarching message, but fails by being overloaded with silly cliches, buzzwords, and naive ideas. Though I lost what little respect I had for you when I noticed your facepalm worthy quoting, this is the kind of argument we were looking for. We realise that it's preachy, but you never really gave a valid reason and explained as to why you found it so bad. Had you started out with something like this, we wouldn't have continued for so long. ShaolinRibiero said: KaiserPingvin said: Frankly, I can't see this at all. Yes, the men were generally weak of mind and the women strong in the same. Once again, you missed my main point. I like Black Lagoon a lot, and women are generally exulted over men in that series. What's the difference here? I actually liken Black Lagoon's presentation to Princess Mononoke's. Both feature strong female characters, but they can't function or lead without men to support them and vice-versa. ShaolinRibiero said: It's the same thing I keep mentioning over and over in this topic, and which you and the rest of the Mononoke fans keep ignoring; the men who don't suck in Princess Mononoke have feminine characteristics, while the women who suck in PM have masculine characteristics. It's the same reason Charles Dickens is considered by most literary scholars to be an early feminist writer; traditionally masculine characteristics are portrayed as idiotic and harmful. ShaolinRibiero said: Archaeon said: I found Ashitaka to be a strong lead male, with many admirable qualities - honest, reliable, honourable, protective, strong. Unless I'm mistaken, they're all traditional male qualities are they not? I strongly disagree here. I should probably re-watch it so I can think of specific instances, but he seemed to me to be a very feminine individual, who was far more concerned with feelings and emotions, instead of what was logical and just. We first must define "masculine" characteristics and "feminine" characteristics. Are you implying that men are fit to lead while women are not? That only men can act upon logic, while women cannot? Only men can be charismatic and women may only follow? As for acting on emotions, it was his arm that cursed him when emotions such as anger or love would take control of him, and his will was what allowed him to act logically in such situations. Not all women are helpless and not all men are Ladd Russo. ShaolinRibiero said: KaiserPingvin said: The feminism is very overobvious. It is certainly not man-hating. And no, not pretentious. I don't get this. You admit there's an abundance of feminism in the film, but it's not man-hating? What? Feminism does not imply androgyny. It implies a love of women and the belief that women can be of equal or *gasp* even higher status than of men. ShaolinRibiero said: I'll repeat this again; grow up. When you've succeeded in having someone 5 years your junior laugh at such a comment, you've surely succeeded in something special. ShaolinRibiero said: You know how it is when you're younger; something is on television, or a friend has it on tape, and being a stupid, bored kid, you watch it. I was never a huge fan of any of those, but it was on, I watched it, and didn't hate it enough as a kid to stop. It's the same reason most people think "Captain Planet" is a shitty cartoon, but everyone watched it as a kid, just because it was on all the time. I probably would have given DBZ and Kenshin a rating of 5 or 6 when I was a kid. Now, they're a 3 and a 2, respectively. Seems about right. Valid comments, taste grows with age and as does one's ability to critique. ShaolinRibiero said: Archaeon said: I found Ashitaka to be a strong lead male, with many admirable qualities - honest, reliable, honourable, protective, strong. Unless I'm mistaken, they're all traditional male qualities are they not? I strongly disagree here. I should probably re-watch it so I can think of specific instances, but he seemed to me to be a very feminine individual, who was far more concerned with feelings and emotions, instead of what was logical and just. CCs_No1_Fanboy said: I wonder how many ppl will or have said the perfection that is Code Geass. Geass might overdo it, but it doesn't take itself too seriously (maybe not even seriously enough : p), none of it is really pretentious at all. It's an entertaining revenge story, and it doesn't try to be anything else. |
ShaolinRibiero said: Way to quote things COMPLETELY out of context. The first part was a specific statement about the film, and not anyone who disagreed with me. The second quote was in response to someone who suggested I was too stupid to understand "Princess Mononoke". The third quote had to do with someone who chastised me for using profanity when describing parts of "Princess Mononoke". It's not the context, it's the fact that every single point you've rebutted has been full of namecalling and been patronizing. You don't leave much of a choice in interpreting you. And you certainly seem to be missing the context of my post - I admitted I were interpreting your words in a manner differing from how you intended them to be. Not that you gave me much of a choice. ShaolinRibiero said: Once again, you missed my main point. I like Black Lagoon a lot, and women are generally exulted over men in that series. What's the difference here? It's the same thing I keep mentioning over and over in this topic, and which you and the rest of the Mononoke fans keep ignoring; the men who don't suck in Princess Mononoke have feminine characteristics, while the women who suck in PM have masculine characteristics. It's the same reason Charles Dickens is considered by most literary scholars to be an early feminist writer; traditionally masculine characteristics are portrayed as idiotic and harmful. But no one sucks. No one's a bad guy. They're all quite human. They're balanced in their negative and positive traits. They're not villainous, they are not animals, they are just people who value different things differently. Sure, the world of Mononoke-hime wasn't merciful on those who had an idea too far from the message, but doing otherwise would leave it with far less impact. ShaolinRibiero said: I don't get this. You admit there's an abundance of feminism in the film, but it's not man-hating? What? So I was discussing feminism with someone who doesn't know what it is. As Archaeon said, there's a world of difference between sexism and feminism. So long, and thanks for having been a fish. ShaolinRibiero said: Yeah, how dare I belittle you with my pernicious, DIFFERING view. Clearly, I should just have the SAME view as everyone else, in which case no one will be belittled. I'll repeat this again; grow up. Correction: with your name-calling and your insults. Your view is irrelevant. And growing up even less so. In fact, I like that you have another view. It's interesting. What I don't like is your downright arrogant way of expressing it. |
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| I'll respond to the stupid posts first, the intelligent one later; qtipbrit92 said: Though I lost what little respect I had for you I never had any respect for you to begin with, and I sure as hell don't want yours. You're a 16 year old who refuses to actually debate anything concerning the anime in question, but writes passive-aggressive insults to make himself feel intelligent. You even bowed out of the debate in your second post in this topic, only to return to it now, once again, minus any actual discussion of the film. qtbrit92 said: when I noticed your facepalm worthy quoting, What does this even mean? You want to hit me in the face? You want to fight me in real life or something? I thought only 12 year olds made physical threats over the Internet, but hey, you live in San Diego, I'm close to LA, so perhaps you are serious. qtbrit92 said: The rest of the post Everything else you've written is either a play on words or fails to make any real poinnt. (you don't associate feminism with man-hating, I do. You think "preachy" and "pretentious" are different, I don't) However, let me know if you were actually serious about fighting me. Kaiserpingvin said: It's not the context, it's the fact that every single point you've rebutted has been full of namecalling and been patronizing. You don't leave much of a choice in interpreting you. And you certainly seem to be missing the context of my post - I admitted I were interpreting your words in a manner differing from how you intended them to be. Not that you gave me much of a choice. Seriously, enough with this. If you want to discuss the film, go ahead. If not, leave your insults towards me and perceived inferiority complex somewhere else. Kaiserpig said: But no one sucks. No one's a bad guy. They're all quite human. They're balanced in their negative and positive traits. They're not villainous, they are not animals, they are just people who value different things differently. Sure, the world of Mononoke-hime wasn't merciful on those who had an idea too far from the message, but doing otherwise would leave it with far less impact. After this, I'm no longer sure you've even watched the movie, let alone actually read any of my arguments. Just let Archeon post your own thoughts; he's the ONLY ONE who is actually debating with me right now about the film. |
YoungVagabondAug 24, 2008 6:54 PM
| Hah, internet arguments: so pointless. BTW, Shaolin guy, have you stated at all why Mononoke-Hime is pretentious? All I'm hearing is how you don't like the blatant environmentalism and (what you call) feminism. What exactly makes it pretentious? In retrospect, Paprika seemed very pretentious to me. I feel like it tried to be something complex and psychological when in actuality it was pretty basic. I love Perfect Blue (and everything else by Satoshi Kon) but Paprika was a huge disappointment for me. |
DanishAug 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Corrupt_Id said: BTW, Shaolin guy, have you stated at all why Mononoke-Hime is pretentious? All I'm hearing is how you don't like the blatant environmentalism and (what you call) feminism. What exactly makes it pretentious? Read; ShaolinRibiero said: When I watched "Princess Mononoke", it seems the film thought I was a retarded 8 year old, and was preaching to me what I should believe in. Hey, I don't mind preaching, as long as the message is good, and the film devises a creative, intelligent, and mature way of showcasing it. Princess Mononoke failed miserably in that regard, and hence it gets the label of pretentious; a movie that tries to have a powerful, overarching message, but fails by being overloaded with silly cliches, buzzwords, and naive ideas. Now, on to the INTELLIGENT POST Archeon said: To be honest I found the qualities you're talking about made him more of a man, rather than less, especially in light of the fact that, although he preferred not to engage in combat, he wouldn't hesitate to put himself in harm's way, or even kill for if it was necessary. Killing and putting oneself in harm's way is neither a female nor male feature, at least for me. And that's the thing; when you consider the male protagonist in "Princess Mononoke", he was much closer to a traditional female protagonist than a traditional male role, whether in anime or literature. ShaolinRibiero said: That he's concerned with people's feelings just means that he isn't a mindless, muscle bound oaf who's only thoughts are killing, getting laid, and proving how much of a "man" he really is. If the men in Mononoke Hime were portrayed in that light, then your argument about sexism would have some very definite grounds. No one is going to be that blatant in terms of representation, nor do they need to be. Simply exult emotional decision-making, one's "feelings", and a desire for passive action, and you're good. Archaeon said: As it is, even though there is a feminist streak in the movie, that doesn't automatically mean that there is a sexist element. I once had the privilege of being able to ask Germaine Greer about the difference between feminism and sexism, and she's definitely not a man hater. Believe me, there's a big difference between the two. Actually, Third Wave (modern) feminism is very much man-hating. While this wasn't always true of feminism, nor is it even true of feminism outside the United States, in this country, the two are very much synonymous. Archaeon said: One other thing that should be noted is the change in society itself. If you compare PM to an earlier Ghibli movie, Laputa for example, then it's actually a lot clearer in Laputa that the male characters have more traditional male persona's. Over the last ten years or so though, traditional roles across the world have changed dramatically, and where women have become more empowered and have adopted more "manly" qualities (drinking, fighting and sleeping around not being some of them), men themselves have become more "effeminate" (there's a fad for wearing pink shirts for crying out loud - I mean pink?!?!?). Absolutely agree, and the last point is widely considered the general feminization of society, which has been written about extensively. |
ShaolinRibiero said: I'll respond to the stupid posts first, the intelligent one later; qtipbrit92 said: Though I lost what little respect I had for you I never had any respect for you to begin with, and I sure as hell don't want yours. You're a 16 year old who refuses to actually debate anything concerning the anime in question, but writes passive-aggressive insults to make himself feel intelligent. You even bowed out of the debate in your second post in this topic, only to return to it now, once again, minus any actual discussion of the film. qtipbrit92 said: Had I more time, I would add on to Kaplan's replies, but they seem adequate as it is. Seems like I have more time on my hands. ShaolinRibiero said: qtbrit92 said: when I noticed your facepalm worthy quoting, What does this even mean? You want to hit me in the face? You want to fight me in real life or something? I thought only 12 year olds made physical threats over the Internet, but hey, you live in San Diego, I'm close to LA, so perhaps you are serious. My apologies, the facepalm. It does say a bit about your character if an unknown phrase or word points solely to physical action/fighting. ShaolinRibiero said: Everything else you've written is either a play on words or fails to make any real poinnt. (you don't associate feminism with man-hating, I do. You think "preachy" and "pretentious" are different, I don't) 1. Learn the language. 2. At least make an effort to avoid hypocrisy. ShaolinRibiero said: [It] was preaching to me what I should believe in. Hey, I don't mind preaching, as long as the message is good, and the film devises a creative, intelligent, and mature way of showcasing it. Princess Mononoke failed miserably in that regard, and hence it gets the label of pretentious; Cheers. And I'm not sure whether or not Archaeon is or should be happy that only his posts are being called "intelligent" by you... Especially when he is doing his best to create a median and cool things off, replying mostly to more neutral posts. |
qtipAug 24, 2008 6:48 PM
qtipbrit92 said: Seems like I have more time on my hands. Then use it to discuss the anime. qtbrit92 said: My apologies, the facepalm. It does say a bit about your character if an unknown phrase or word points solely to physical action/fighting. Glad you cleared that up. I'm not a huge expert on Internet captioned pictures or memes in general, so when someone mentions a hand hitting a face, I make the obvious connection. There are probably about a dozen or so articles on feminism I could link you to, since you're arguing about things you don't really understand. Suffice to say that NOWADAYS, IN THE US, feminism is very much associated with man-hating, and portraying men as weak, stupid, and insensitive. Even portraying their traditional qualities as such is very much an aspect of hatred towards the gender. I realize a discussion like this is quite off-topic for this forum in general, but it's important for comprehending my feelings about the film. And I love how you and Kaiser are arguing against my point about man-hating, but have been oddly silent about the film's very militant environmentalism. Does this mean you concede that point? qtbrit92 said: And I'm not sure whether or not Archaeon is or should be happy that only his posts are being called "intelligent" by you... Yet another very passive aggressive insult about the intelligence of someone who disagrees with you. Way to show how smart and mature you are, kid. |
YoungVagabondAug 24, 2008 7:00 PM
ShaolinRibiero said: When I watched "Princess Mononoke", it seems the film thought I was a retarded 8 year old, and was preaching to me what I should believe in. Hey, I don't mind preaching, as long as the message is good, and the film devises a creative, intelligent, and mature way of showcasing it. Princess Mononoke failed miserably in that regard, and hence it gets the label of pretentious; a movie that tries to have a powerful, overarching message, but fails by being overloaded with silly cliches, buzzwords, and naive ideas. You're looking to deep into it and criticizing the film for trying to be something it was never meant to be. Studio Ghibli films are aimed at children; sure adults can enjoy them too but in the end they're basically made for children. Kids aren't looking for a message when they watch a Ghibli film, they watch it to be entertained. I think you've just come to expect too much from anime; you expect everything to live up to your own standards. |
Corrupt_Id said: You're looking to deep into it and criticizing the film for trying to be something it was never meant to be. Studio Ghibli films are aimed at children; sure adults can enjoy them too but in the end they're basically made for children. Kids aren't looking for a message when they watch a Ghibli film, they watch it to be entertained. I think you've just come to expect too much from anime. You expect everything to live up to your own standards. All the more reason for children's films to carry a message. The kids don't even realize the film is trying to alter their opinions on the world, while adults are more cynical by nature, and quickly realize this. Surely, you don't think all the children's films about the danger of strangers, drugs, alcohol, and smoking were there purely for the entertainment aspect? |
ShaolinRibiero said: There are probably about a dozen or so articles on feminism I could link you to, since you're arguing about things you don't really understand. Suffice to say that NOWADAYS, IN THE US, feminism is very much associated with man-hating, and portraying men as weak, stupid, and insensitive. Even portraying their traditional qualities as such is very much an aspect of hatred towards the gender. Seems like you might need to be around some happier people. : / ShaolinRibiero said: And I love how you and Kaiser are arguing against my point about man-hating, but have been oddly silent about the film's very militant environmentalism. Does this mean you concede that point? I actually came back a bit too late to see you bring it up, though I do agree that Mononoke and Nausicaa are two films with very environmentalistic films. "Militant" might not be the word, though, as it's not on such a level. Humans are not the only instigators of conflict, though they are easily portrayed to be. The boars knowingly attack when they know a trap is set up, the apes are closed by nature, hating both human and animal when provoked. ShaolinRibiero said: qtipbrit92 said: And I'm not sure whether or not Archaeon is or should be happy that only his posts are being called "intelligent" by you... Yet another very passive aggressive insult about the intelligence of someone who disagrees with you. Way to show how smart and mature you are, kid. Passive-aggressive insults are how I try to maintain the status quo, though they fail since their rage stats can't compare to a true targeted insult. : ( |
qtipbrit92 said: Seems like you might need to be around some happier people. : / The Women's Studies department at most US colleges doesn't have ANY happy people in it. If you decide to attend a liberal arts college in two years, you'll understand this. In fact, that was actually a huge reason why I decided to go to a technical school. I don't enjoy people with depressing personalities. qtbrit92 said: I actually came back a bit too late to see you bring it up, though I do agree that Mononoke and Nausicaa are two films with very environmentalistic films. "Militant" might not be the word, though, as it's not on such a level. Humans are not the only instigators of conflict, though they are easily portrayed to be. The boars knowingly attack when they know a trap is set up, the apes are closed by nature, hating both human and animal when provoked. Militant, absolutely. In the film, industrial elements are PHYSICALLY ATTACKED for daring to improve their lot by (presumably) responsible logging, and urban developers are seen as mostly greedy, ethic-less pigs. Hey, there are environmental groups that actually support violence and arson against animal testing labs or small-town loggers. I'm sure they would love a lot of Princess Mononoke's message. As an aside, it's funny that I've posted a lot of my negative opinions about other anime classics, such as Trigun, Fullmetal Panic, and the FMA movie. Yet, the only one that ever spawned any hostility (and quite a bit of it) were my views on Princess Mononoke. What is it with people and this film? I've seen Star Wars fans get less outraged when someone mentions a fault in the originals. |
| shaolin - i frankly don't think you have a problem with the movie, just it's message and themes. preachy? sure, but so what. i can disagree with every statement and theme of an anime, but it can still be a masterpiece. about your statements of the presentation in princess mononoke, well, i doubt anything i say will change your opinion, but don't you think a children's movie should present ideas in a relatively simplistic manner? just because the presentation of a message is simple, does not mean it was incompetently done. about the female argument, yes, females were presented in a more positive light, but common, there are so many animes where women are shown as idiots with no social skills, but you have to attack one movie that does the opposite, and only to a small extent. @DCIAO - how was texnolyze pretentious? it was ambitious, but surely it doesnt deserve to be called pretentious, since it was fairly simple and straightforward in its' concepts. and it wasn't even that artsy, i love artsy stuff, and texnolyze falls short from being an "artsy-fartsy" piece of work. |
| I think I'd propose Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence. While its predecessor managed to provoke the odd thought amidst its fine action sequences and (mostly) kept the lid on confusing speechmaking (because if you want to write a philosophical treatise, you should write a philosophical treatise, not a film script), Innocence gave speechmaking free reign and, worse, it introduced reams of quotation. I don't mind the occasional quiet reference, but stonking great paragraphs, overtly shoved in one's face, tend to offend. It doesn't help our grasp of the characters, either: is Section 9 suddenly full of bibliophiles, or something? Seems unlikely. In all fairness, Innocence did look very nice, its action sequences were good fun and it wasn't unwatchable. But it did come across as having an exaggerated sense of its own intellectual value. Pretentious. |
| It's pretty funny/amazing how some of the people here end up being bigger pompous pricks than the work they are criticizing.It really feels like Starbucks in here. Great thread :-) |
Leuconoe said: I think I'd propose Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence. While its predecessor managed to provoke the odd thought amidst its fine action sequences and (mostly) kept the lid on confusing speechmaking (because if you want to write a philosophical treatise, you should write a philosophical treatise, not a film script), Innocence gave speechmaking free reign and, worse, it introduced reams of quotation. I don't mind the occasional quiet reference, but stonking great paragraphs, overtly shoved in one's face, tend to offend. It doesn't help our grasp of the characters, either: is Section 9 suddenly full of bibliophiles, or something? Seems unlikely. In all fairness, Innocence did look very nice, its action sequences were good fun and it wasn't unwatchable. But it did come across as having an exaggerated sense of its own intellectual value. Pretentious. i have to agree with you. i did enjoy it though. |
AnimusNathan said: Lol I haven't added every single thing I've seen to my list. You add stuff when you remember to add it. And by the way, calm down. I didn't say they were necessarily "man-hating" but made males look bad, there is an audience of females that like that sort of thing. Calm down, lassie. Strange. I thought it was fairly easy to remember if you'd seen a particular Ghibli movie or not. The fact that your list goes from A to Z does kind suggest that it's up to date though, wouldn't you say? As for making males "look bad", well that's the kind of puerile sentiment that need backing up with valid arguments. In other words, give me examples from other Ghibli movies - Mononoke Hime cannot apply here as: 1. You made the claim that "Almost all Ghibli films make males look evil and idiotic." (personally I would have classified that as man hating, but that's just me I suppose). 2. Mononoke Hime is already being discussed, so rather than giving you an easy ride by allowing you to "jump on the bandwagon" (which I still think you are doing, and you've yet to prove me wrong on this), I'd like for you to come up with examples from other Ghibli movies which you claim to have seen @ ShaolinRibiero - Thanks for the vote of confidence. @ qtipbrit92 - I don't mind how my posts are perceived. As long as they make people think then everything's cool. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
M_A said: @DCIAO - how was texnolyze pretentious? it was ambitious, but surely it doesnt deserve to be called pretentious, since it was fairly simple and straightforward in its' concepts. and it wasn't even that artsy, i love artsy stuff, and texnolyze falls short from being an "artsy-fartsy" piece of work. To be fair, the first episode was pretentiousness incarnate. After that though, I agree it gets more straightforward. |
| GunBuster....it was just ridiculous Captain how can you hate Eva but not GunBuster? |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
| I don't see how Princess Mononoke is pretentious considering the target audience is children. It presents its ideas on nature and humanity's relationship with nature in fairly straight-forward ways. And its certainly not man-hating. Disagreeing with the ideas presented in it is perfectly acceptable, but to say that its pretentious? I think that is unwarranted. That said, I still like Nausicaa more xD Definitely got to agree with the person who mentioned GITS: Innocence. As much as I love the franchise, I was extremely disappointed with Innocence. |
| not a job creator |
| SKY CRAWLERS!! All they do is chug away at cigarretes, be depressed then die. That film was LAME, other than the 1 minute or so of actual fighting which was awesome. I understand what they were trying to achieve but they failed HARD. |
| Heads I win. Tails you lose. |
| http://myanimelist.net/anime/730/Houkago_no_Shokuinshitsu edit: You seriously have to stop posting promoting this show :p |
desolatoJan 26, 2011 2:29 AM
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madeener said: Pretty much.Pretentious anime = any intelligent anime you dislike a great deal :P It's an extremely overused and subjective word that doesn't leave any impact whatsoever. Calling a show "pretentious" without being able to back that statement up with some valid criticisms is a sign of extreme laziness, an inability to express oneself or, more often than not, an underdeveloped mind. The word isn't a synonym for "I disliked it", which some doesn't seem to get. |
GuZSep 8, 2012 9:45 AM
| Holy necro. Anyway, usually shows that are so obviously trying to be "intelligent" are pretentious, at least to some degree. Just don't pretend to have insight when you don't, it looks bad. A few that come to mind are Kino no Tabi, Ghost Hound, Ga-Rei: Zero, Fate/Zero, 5 cm/s. They can't just do their thing and let the viewer decide, instead they're practically screaming "look at how thought provoking this is, you should probably reflect now." HappyRadio3000 said: Yeah, you can call pretty much any anime you don't like that have Philosophy and Symbolism, Moral Values and Lessons in it "pretentious" t including any anime on my favorites list, but that really doesn't make it true. Like you said, GuZ, At the end of the day, people here only use that word to describe anime that they dislike. Do you think that the vast majority of anime deal with these in any meaningful way though? Just like there is moe for moe lovers, there is pseudo-intellectual material for intellectuals. Obviously it's subjective, like everything else, but that doesn't mean it's a bad discussion topic imo. I mean, surely even the biggest of Fate/Zero fans should be able to admit that the show was extremely pretentious at times. With all the shallow talks of Gods, what it means to be a leader, etc. etc. |
JoshSep 8, 2012 10:00 AM
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
madeener said: How serious can any show be with a Japanese speaking freak from the underworld hovering around eating apples? I don't think there's anything wrong with 'acting' as if ideas are valid. It is has more to do with allowing viewers to be submerged in the presented alternative reality than claiming importance. How exactly are the characters 'dignified' btw? Through the whole show it just felt like a pair of crazy schemers (kids) trying to outdo each other. Didn't exactly have the air of dignity floating around. I actually agree. Many people find that Death Note is pretentious, but I think that's only because of what themes the series tends to provoke in people's minds. If anything the creators even explained how they just wanted to do a fun shonen, nothing preachy at all. GuZ said: madeener said: Pretty much.Pretentious anime = any intelligent anime you dislike a great deal :P It's an extremely overused and subjective word that doesn't leave any impact whatsoever. Calling a show "pretentious" without being able to back that statement up with some valid criticisms is a sign of extreme laziness, an inability to express oneself or, more often than not, an underdeveloped mind. The word isn't a synonym for "I disliked it", which some doesn't seem to get. Haha this. ^_^ @Post-Josh I'm no Fate fan (heck I have a hard time truly liking the whole franchise) yet I greatly enjoyed Fate/Zero. I actually don't think Fate/Zero was pretentious at all, if anything it was like an exercise of seeing different clashing ideals and morals in a fantasy deathmatch scenario. It didn't feel like it was preaching to me what was right or wrong, rather I always see it as a well-told deconstruction of the anti-hero archetype as well as the common ideal of a "hero." I think people find an anime pretentious every time they feel like they're being forced to think in a certain way when most of the time, I find that a lot of them use such ideas to simply back up character motivations and developments (whether or not they're done effectively is subject to debate of course.) Anyway, regarding the Princess Mononoke discussion, I actually thought it was well-balanced in terms of gender. Both female leads were very extreme in their views (thus having strengths and weaknesses in their stance in the film), yet they were portrayed as strong and dignified women whereas the main male protagonist acted as a balance between both, and by being the one to prevent the main conflict in the story (forest god losing its head), he essentially retained his significance as a neutral character within the story. |
ronriSep 8, 2012 10:15 AM
| Being pretentious isn't necessarily about preaching. It's just: "Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed." First thing first in terms of Fate/Zero, the battle is called the "Holy Grail War". Second, all of the people fighting are historical warrior/savior figures with ridiculous nicknames, like "King of Knights" "King of Conquerors" "King of Kings", and so on. Quotes like "If you cut a thread, and then tie it, the thickness will be different where you originally cut it, right? In that sense, it means irreversible change." Talking about sophisticated subjects while sitting around drinking wine out of gold cups?! If all that isn't the textbook definition of pretentious, then I don't know what is. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
Post-Josh said: Being pretentious isn't necessarily about preaching. It's just: "Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed." First thing first in terms of Fate/Zero, the battle is called the "Holy Grail War". Second, all of the people fighting are historical warrior/savior figures with ridiculous nicknames, like "King of Knights" "King of Conquerors" "King of Kings", and so on. Quotes like "If you cut a thread, and then tie it, the thickness will be different where you originally cut it, right? In that sense, it means irreversible change." If all that isn't the textbook definition of pretentious, then I don't know what is. Fair enough, in that regard I will definitely agree that Fate/Zero is pretentious. I'll be one to admit that the "nicknames" don't really feel pretentious in that they're truly what the "characters" were referred to so using them simply made sense (rather it's the idea of using the characters that's pretentious in the first place). Still I'll be one to admit that I may have misjudged your post due to the initial tone of it so my apologies. |
| I must admit, I have a problem with any environmental show or movie. They tend to act like all humans do every day is purposely go out and destroy the environment, like flowers are evil. Except of course for the main character who naturally speaks for the environment and thinks it should be protected. And every single freakin' time, the forest is always sentient enough to purposely kill humans, either directly or by sending giant insects or vicious animals (under the control of the forest) to do it. Yet a human picks a single flower, and they're evil and "destroying the forest" but when the forest kills a human, it's a-ok. But my problem is that real life does not work like that. I'm not even talking about the magical fantasy killing forests, I'm talking about how most of us do not go out of our way every single day to try and destroy trees. It's like, the humans in these sorts of movies, instead of walking a few feet around a tree, they immediately consider chopping it down to be the best course of action. For me, making the morality on an everyday grey and gray morality issue so clear cut black and white pisses me off. But there's also another part of these sorts of things: Humans suck and are evil. I love it when shows celebrate humanity precisely because they are reminding us that we are species of higher intellect than trees, or mice, or goats, or amoeba, or whatever. I hate it when things go "look at all the evil in the world, that is all your fault! Hitler caused WW2, and by being human, you are supporting Hitler!" instead of going "look at what humanity has accomplished! We have gone to the freakin' moon! We have doubled our lifespan since the 1830s and have created medical and scientific advancements to accomplish this! We take cats and dogs into our homes, rescue them from the streets, and treat them like family! Humanity has done great good in this world! Yes, Hitler was evil, but Hitler does not equal all humanity!" And I feel like I never see anything of the good, only of the bad, and it's so one sided that it simply disgusts me. And that is why I find movies like Nausicaa and Princess Mononoke pretentious. Origin: Spirits of the Past was pretty bad too, though that movie had other problems I suppose. But yeah, of all the forms of pretentiousness, humans vs nature annoys me the most. Because only Osamu Tezuka can seem to do it correctly. |
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