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Poll: Shakugan no Shana III (Final) Episode 16 Discussion


May 11, 2012 2:41 PM

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Their motivation for fighting really was weak. Probably the biggest reason why I'm not liking the show that much.

Although I could kinda see why preventing catastrophe thounsands of years down the road might be a right thing to do, it's kind of ignorant because they don't really know for sure. They're just assuming as long as the tomogara exist and do their existence business, then the world will continue to be distorted and the only solution is to wipe them out.

ON the other hand the story kinda stuck itself in a hole because for the Flame Hazes it's kind of hard for them to just trust their opponent all of a sudden even if their opponent seem to seek peace by moving into a new world. If anything their will to fight is more or less to seek their own survival, not really humanity's existence. After all, even when Yuji declared his goals the Denizens was still killing every flame haze they could see. :/

In the end both side refuse to listen and negotiate with each other. One side is just doing their business and the other is doing theirs. When the only negotiation is between Yuji and Shana it was kinda silly when mostly Shana was thinking about love and Yuji was thinking about grander things.
Modified by Tachii, May 11, 2012 2:46 PM
 
Jun 22, 2012 5:33 PM

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haha, marco is hilearous, start of the episode. Everyone's all gloomy and he tries to cheer everyone up. I just love that guy lol.


So most of this episode deals with the planning of thier next move. I don't understand shana's reasoning at all. It makes no sense to me. Didn't yuji already clearly state that the reason he is creating a replica world is so all of the tomagara can live off of the infinite amount of existence, their for they do not have to cross over to any other world to feed off of the denizens. Leaving that word safe for ever. So how does shana come to a conclusion that in the near future, which in a millennium that eventually both worlds will become distorted. Once again a very nonsensical plot that makes no sence, either that or shana is just idiotic and doesn't know the hell she is taking bout.

Now they are on thier way to new york to meet the other 3 gods of the motherland.

It was nice seeing yuji's dad agian even though he doesn't remember his existence any longer. Shana walked right past him and he didn't even realize.

So now shana's group heads to new york and the trinity heads back to misaki city in japan.

preview of next ep



New ending theme was pretty cool. This episode was ok, but the next is what i really want to see.
Modified by link9us, Jun 22, 2012 5:41 PM



 
Jun 22, 2012 5:34 PM

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ClementIV said:
Other than Pheles's brief screen time and the new ED there wasn't much to be excited about this week.

Also, I kind of wish that they would have had more time to add more material. They just threw out the fact that Sale was an artificial flame haze. Hopefully there is an OVA or something in the future.


What do you mean exactly?



 
Jul 18, 2012 6:41 PM

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Tachii said:
f anything their will to fight is more or less to seek their own survival, not really humanity's existence. After all, even when Yuji declared his goals the Denizens was still killing every flame haze they could see. :/.


That, and the fact there is a way to live without killing humans as shown by Lamies/Spiral Organ, together with no Tomogorra decided this on his own, and Yuji didn't order them to do so leaves me with the impression that Yuji would still create this new world if they could show that it would ineviatable come to this catastrophe.

He would argue "i will figure something out in the mean time". What? You had some thousand years to figure something out.

If he would be interested in real peace, he would have done several things:

Started negotiating even before retrieving his body, order the Tomogora to stop eating people (at least if they can avoid it, would depend on the amount of Torches available at all times), and stopped them from pursuing the retreating flame haze.

Especially the last..really? He was like: "Why do you fight? We can have peace! Drop your weapons now, so my army can slaughter you, once you are all gone, there will be no more war, ever! See? I have everything planned out!".

Instead they started to attack Outlaw all over the world, he went retrieving his body, and when the Flame Haze started a counterattack he did not stop the fighting, but decided this was the best moment to finally announce his plans he was asked about several times before by Shana, which surprisingly (a god that had thousand of year to plan his comeback down to the minute surely didn't think of the impact his speech would have on the enemy..) led to a drop of moral in the Flame Haze army which were slaughtered without mercy, many Tomogora actually seemed to enjoy it.

And Sydonay would even have killed Shana, just because Yuji didn't explicitily tell him not to. So either Yuji did this on purpose, because he no longer has any use for Shana, or even now his subordinates go knowingly against his wishes (he clearly showed that Shana is not to be killed in the incident with Hecate - and Hecate is even Sydonays superior).

Even now he didn't use the time to negotiate, he didn't even consider it once, instead he orders to immediately move the Sereiden to Misaki city, not even taking time to cloak it again, because Outlaw could find our or they could be attacked.

Really? The Flame Haze lost 80% of their army they had *after* the Tomogora destroyed many Outlaw offices, they even killed two of the most powerful Flame Haze with Samuel and Centerhill, and they still have to hurry and have no time for anything because of the Flame Hate?

This is not even a lame excuse, it's outright bullshit. Yuji could take all the time he needs to explain it in detail to every single flame haze one by one until they are convinced he is right, after all, he can simply proceed with it like he does now if needed, or order his army to attack them again.

This together with even Centerhill (and the others probably too, they wouldn't be waiting for them otherwise) agreeing to join the fight and telling them the real reason what causes the unbalance, there is simply no reason to believe any word Yuji says.

He could have avoided everything if he talked to Shana once he was back, he decided not to. Also, it's not the Flame Haze job to negotiate. They were created to fight against anyone who disturbs the balance. If the Flame Haze attack you in your own city, you clearly did something very wrong. Either the reason for the attack is true, or you failed terriblly in trying to prevent it. Or you never tried, like Yuji, after all, you can only fail if you try.

I don't exactly agree on the way the Flame Haze do some stuff, like Sophie is really weird, that they immediately lost reason to fight there, and them suddenly coming up with a new reason thats essentially the same..but given the circumstances, they are doing a pretty good job.

@ClemensIV: They didn't throw that out, he mentioned that at least once directly. He even said the one that created him is "there" when heading to the battle then.
 
Aug 14, 2012 5:31 AM

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Shana's reason for fighting is stupid. If a disaster were to occur in a few thousand years, that gives the flame haze's a few thousand peaceful years to determine what to do if it happens.

But if they get Pheles and the last 3 gods of earth....what a killing team!
"We're nothing more than fools and whores with sad highs"
 
Dec 23, 2012 10:52 AM

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How Chigusa remembers Shana? In her previous appearance where Carmel asked Chigusa about Shana, Chigusa asked her back 'who is Shana?'. WTF plot-hole?


 
Dec 23, 2012 2:20 PM
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Sa-chan_ said:
How Chigusa remembers Shana? In her previous appearance where Carmel asked Chigusa about Shana, Chigusa asked her back 'who is Shana?'. WTF plot-hole?


Think it probably had something to do with Shana's powers being sealed.
 
Mar 20, 2013 1:44 PM

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Marco has cracked me up since season 1, cause hes funny & he has big mouth LOL
 
Oct 30, 2013 7:15 AM

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For Shana's big character growth being a gaining of love she is sure fast to hate denizens and give them no chance to redeem themselves.

The only flame hazes I agree with their reason to fight are Sale who just wants to stop the person who created him(and really I have wanted that scientist dead since he first appeared), and Rebecca who thinks it is too good to be true.
My anime list
 
Dec 6, 2013 8:50 AM
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Nocturcity said:
Sophie needs to die already...and Wilhelmina is getting a bit annoying...
I agree, she's annoyed me from the start!

Tachii said:
f anything their will to fight is more or less to seek their own survival, not really humanity's existence. After all, even when Yuji declared his goals the Denizens was still killing every flame haze they could see. :/.


Look at it from the perspective of the Denizens and the God of Creation! Flame Hazes were created to restore balance to the world. Well, that is what we were led to believe until this episode.

Now we know that is BS. Flame Hazes were not created to balance the world they were created out of revenge for the tomogora.

So as soon as Yuji made his announcement their reason for existing was gone. That's why the Flame Hazes threw their weapons to the ground. They were dead already which is why the denizens attacked them.

Anyway, with that said, I have to agree/disagree with both sides. The plan may not go as well as Yuji believes it will, but Shana isn't really trying to understand the possibility of it at all.

Now then, let's talk about the actual episode.

BORING! That is all.
 
Feb 11, 2014 5:04 AM

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So battle restarts next episode.
 
Apr 6, 2014 11:56 PM

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Anyone that claims that Shana and her fellow Tool Flame Crazes have solid reasons to oppose Yuji's plan must be watching a different show. A supposed theoretical catastrophe that MIGHT occur in THOUSANDS of years????

Please don't insult us anymore.
 
Apr 7, 2014 7:23 PM

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The thing I'm the most curious about is why did they insisted so much on showing that Yuuji dad was coming back to Japan. What does that mean? Will something happen to him? Will he be victim of a Tomogara? By bringing the Seireiden to Japan, he put them has an easy target...

I'm also curious about Shana plan. After getting the help of the other three Earth Gods, what will be her next move? Rebecca talked about getting the Tendokyu.

Why was Pheles looking for those people? Were they Tomogara?
«Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.»
- Kurisu Makise a.k.a. The Zombie
 
Jun 17, 2014 11:13 AM

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This time some chilled episode
 
Jul 3, 2014 7:38 PM
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SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ROOTING FOR THE FLAME HAZES!! I get that Yuji isn't a saint and that his plan isn't perfect but the only thing I've gotten from these past few episodes is that a catastrophe MAY happen in a hundred or thousand years. It seems like the plan is to defeat the Snake of the Festival and then stick with the current order...which is obviously very flawed.
 
Oct 27, 2014 7:37 AM

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Pheles. Nuff said.
 
Dec 20, 2014 9:16 PM
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May I inquire, if anyone knows the song that is played during 17:10 this episode, when all the Flame Haze make their decisions regarding whether to join Shana or not?
Modified by OR242, May 26, 2015 6:48 PM
 
May 5, 2016 2:20 PM

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A new opening for enjoy...

---
Nuevo opening para disfrutar...


Hello, my litte boy!


 
Jun 15, 2017 4:11 PM

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Cool that we got to see Pheles again.

Nice build up episode. I'm sure it will take at least another one before it's back to the action.
Kokoro did nothing wrong.

 
Jul 18, 2017 6:38 AM
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otakukid said:
SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHY WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE ROOTING FOR THE FLAME HAZES!! I get that Yuji isn't a saint and that his plan isn't perfect but the only thing I've gotten from these past few episodes is that a catastrophe MAY happen in a hundred or thousand years. It seems like the plan is to defeat the Snake of the Festival and then stick with the current order...which is obviously very flawed.


When in doubt don't side with the group that mercilessly slaughters a disarmed retreating army.
 
Sep 29, 2017 4:17 AM

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emeraldrosary said:
Nocturcity said:
Sophie needs to die already...and Wilhelmina is getting a bit annoying...
I agree, she's annoyed me from the start!

Tachii said:
f anything their will to fight is more or less to seek their own survival, not really humanity's existence. After all, even when Yuji declared his goals the Denizens was still killing every flame haze they could see. :/.


Look at it from the perspective of the Denizens and the God of Creation! Flame Hazes were created to restore balance to the world. Well, that is what we were led to believe until this episode.

Now we know that is BS. Flame Hazes were not created to balance the world they were created out of revenge for the tomogora.


that's not 100% right they were created to restore balance to the world, but the gods or how to call them used their grudge against the tomogora to create them :)
 
Dec 1, 2017 6:18 PM

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To no surprise their reasons behind continuing to fight becomes more stupid as the episodes pass by. So they refuse to allow Yuji/Snake to create another world because something might happen thousands of years down the road? What kind of bullshit is this? Seriously it may seem too optimistic but at least it's an attempt to bring peace rather than war. Which the Flame Haze's seem to adore clearly. I have liked Shana but jeez she's just turning back into a plain regular Flame Haze who fights just to fight. I know I probably won't be right but hopefully the next episode is better.
 
Jun 21, 5:35 AM

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link9us said:
haha, marco is hilearous, start of the episode. Everyone's all gloomy and he tries to cheer everyone up. I just love that guy lol.


So most of this episode deals with the planning of thier next move. I don't understand shana's reasoning at all. It makes no sense to me. Didn't yuji already clearly state that the reason he is creating a replica world is so all of the tomagara can live off of the infinite amount of existence, their for they do not have to cross over to any other world to feed off of the denizens. Leaving that word safe for ever. So how does shana come to a conclusion that in the near future, which in a millennium that eventually both worlds will become distorted. Once again a very nonsensical plot that makes no sence, either that or shana is just idiotic and doesn't know the hell she is taking bout.

Now they are on thier way to new york to meet the other 3 gods of the motherland.

It was nice seeing yuji's dad agian even though he doesn't remember his existence any longer. Shana walked right past him and he didn't even realize.

So now shana's group heads to new york and the trinity heads back to misaki city in japan.

preview of next ep



New ending theme was pretty cool. This episode was ok, but the next is what i really want to see.


marco is always hilarioud with hes big mouth 😁
 
Jun 21, 5:38 AM

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NwAurion said:
Tachii said:
f anything their will to fight is more or less to seek their own survival, not really humanity's existence. After all, even when Yuji declared his goals the Denizens was still killing every flame haze they could see. :/.


That, and the fact there is a way to live without killing humans as shown by Lamies/Spiral Organ, together with no Tomogorra decided this on his own, and Yuji didn't order them to do so leaves me with the impression that Yuji would still create this new world if they could show that it would ineviatable come to this catastrophe.

He would argue "i will figure something out in the mean time". What? You had some thousand years to figure something out.

If he would be interested in real peace, he would have done several things:

Started negotiating even before retrieving his body, order the Tomogora to stop eating people (at least if they can avoid it, would depend on the amount of Torches available at all times), and stopped them from pursuing the retreating flame haze.

Especially the last..really? He was like: "Why do you fight? We can have peace! Drop your weapons now, so my army can slaughter you, once you are all gone, there will be no more war, ever! See? I have everything planned out!".

Instead they started to attack Outlaw all over the world, he went retrieving his body, and when the Flame Haze started a counterattack he did not stop the fighting, but decided this was the best moment to finally announce his plans he was asked about several times before by Shana, which surprisingly (a god that had thousand of year to plan his comeback down to the minute surely didn't think of the impact his speech would have on the enemy..) led to a drop of moral in the Flame Haze army which were slaughtered without mercy, many Tomogora actually seemed to enjoy it.

And Sydonay would even have killed Shana, just because Yuji didn't explicitily tell him not to. So either Yuji did this on purpose, because he no longer has any use for Shana, or even now his subordinates go knowingly against his wishes (he clearly showed that Shana is not to be killed in the incident with Hecate - and Hecate is even Sydonays superior).

Even now he didn't use the time to negotiate, he didn't even consider it once, instead he orders to immediately move the Sereiden to Misaki city, not even taking time to cloak it again, because Outlaw could find our or they could be attacked.

Really? The Flame Haze lost 80% of their army they had *after* the Tomogora destroyed many Outlaw offices, they even killed two of the most powerful Flame Haze with Samuel and Centerhill, and they still have to hurry and have no time for anything because of the Flame Hate?

This is not even a lame excuse, it's outright bullshit. Yuji could take all the time he needs to explain it in detail to every single flame haze one by one until they are convinced he is right, after all, he can simply proceed with it like he does now if needed, or order his army to attack them again.

This together with even Centerhill (and the others probably too, they wouldn't be waiting for them otherwise) agreeing to join the fight and telling them the real reason what causes the unbalance, there is simply no reason to believe any word Yuji says.

He could have avoided everything if he talked to Shana once he was back, he decided not to. Also, it's not the Flame Haze job to negotiate. They were created to fight against anyone who disturbs the balance. If the Flame Haze attack you in your own city, you clearly did something very wrong. Either the reason for the attack is true, or you failed terriblly in trying to prevent it. Or you never tried, like Yuji, after all, you can only fail if you try.

I don't exactly agree on the way the Flame Haze do some stuff, like Sophie is really weird, that they immediately lost reason to fight there, and them suddenly coming up with a new reason thats essentially the same..but given the circumstances, they are doing a pretty good job.

@ClemensIV: They didn't throw that out, he mentioned that at least once directly. He even said the one that created him is "there" when heading to the battle then.

@emeraldrosary @Lorezhno

the reason they continued killing after flame hazes gave up was a strategy, what if they find their resolve and get back in to fight, so bettel kill them so they won't get a chance to return
Modified by Sugram22, Jun 21, 5:47 AM
 
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