Shakugan no Shana III (Final) Episode 14 Discussion
Jan 13, 2012 8:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Valky said:So far, all magic things in Shana is fueled with the power of existence (either taken from human or the denizen's own "soul" existence). Assuming the snake is not excluded from that rule, creating a world seems like it's going to take hell lot of sacrifice.
Declaring your plan and make your plan reality are two different things. There's no guarantee your plan will always go your way. It's not like the world that Yuuji intend to create suddenly appears out of nowhere instantly.
Have you forgotten the Reiji Maigo? The trinity was able to use that to create an endless fountain of power of existence before. No reason they can't do something similar now.
Jan 14, 2012 6:43 AM
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Jan 14, 2012 7:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
good ep, but so far the story/ plot between the flame hazes and Denizens reasons for fighting each other seems a bit weak/rushed, it would make the story better if the flame hazes had more of a stronger purpose for fighting the Denizens. Meh, we'll see how it turns out.
from what i know about the light novels, it looks like the anime will have the same ending (a good one)
Most people fight for no purpose, they fight for the sake of fighting and their pride.
Jan 14, 2012 9:59 PM
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And here I thought that this episode would be worse than the last episode.
Also, I pretty lol'ed at everyone bashing Sophie Sawallisch without looking at the context. Note that the priority of the Flame Hazes is to escape. I mean, Sophie is the leader of the Flame Hazes, aside from maintaining her political power over the Flame Hazes, it is still her responsibility to protect the lives of the Flame Hazes. We didn't her conviction from this episode, so we cannot assume that she is still stubborn. Maybe she is aware that Yuuji's plan might be good, but still maybe she knows that at this point in time, she had to maintain their morale in order to escape. Their priority right now is to escape. Listening to the enemy is too risky, I mean in the middle of the battlefield, will you listen to the enemy commander's speech? Of course, it would cost their life.
Jan 15, 2012 3:30 PM
Jan 15, 2012 3:38 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
I never understood why Flame Hazes were considered the good ones and Tomogara the bad ones and it seems I'm not alone to think like that, now the FH don't even have a reason to fight anymore since Yuji's plan seems flawless (I write "seems" because we'll probably find a flaw soon, but even then it'll be too late scenaristically to make any sense for us viewers, the points must be made at the beginning of the series, not as a Deus Ex Machina kind of plot device). Moreover, the Flame Haze's leaders have proven utterly inept and unable to take a simple decision since the beginning of this last season, with the perfect example being Sophie Sawallich leading her troops like a total retard (I know it's not LOGH but still, several millennia of experience and being so dumb...).
Well, they should definitely have stick to what Shana was all about in the beginning, a mild fantasy-action romance show with some teenage humour? Now the overly serious plot and grand-scale battles don't fit the series at all and the writer(s) are simply not skilled enough to pull anything out of it. Oh, and I didn't like the new OP, especially compared to the first one which was glorious.
Jan 15, 2012 4:02 PM
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Jan 16, 2012 1:03 AM
Jan 16, 2012 4:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2011
Eh...dunno what to say, really.
Regarding how everybody feels about the Flame Hazes...it seems everybody really dislikes them right now, either because they're 'arrogant' or 'don't think about the consequences' or whatever other reason.
But you know what I think? I think the reason why this is so is because the story actually follows both sides of the argument. That's what sets the Denizens apart from other antagonists - they have a real reason to be fighting, and aren't necessarily 'evil'. They simply want what is best for themselves. The Flame Hazes, on the other hand, fight simply to 'protect the balance'. I have a few abstract ideas myself about why they fight, but all that's purely speculative and philosophical.
Having said that, I feel that the only reason people dislike the Flame Hazes is because their side of the story has been kinda left out. In this episode, for example, Yuji talks about how they feared a 'great catastrophe' would occur were he to remake the world. This is the first mention I've ever heard of any real reason to be opposing him; before this episode, I assumed they fought simply because to fall into the God of Creation's dream would be to live a false reality (or something along those lines). Or because his dream consists of completely destroying and reworking the world.
As such, I'm much more sympathetic of the Flame Hazes; and their human bodies makes it that much easier to relate to them. Furthermore, a few of them have gotten personal battle scenes and revealed themselves to be unique, only to be slain at the last moment. The last few episodes, while epic in their own way, have really made me cringe at times. Call me a wuss if you will, but all these deaths, especially considering how unnatural some of them are, have really subdued my attitude towards the constant action going on.
Although this anime's been one of my favorites for a long time, the thing that really changed in the third season that was different from the first two is the lack of 'slice-of-life'; the problems the main characters had to deal with started as issues of love, and now they've got all of creation and existence to worry about. There's no longer that nice little mix of normal life and action which made me really enjoy the series. The dismissal of most of the schoolmates, for example, really dampened my enthusiasm.
Tl;dr - I'm a bit more sympathetic of the Flame Hazes than most, and think there's something the writers have left out regarding why they're fighting in the first place; but in the end, all the fighting is starting to get kinda sickening, even if it's just an anime. And the way the Flame Hazes completely freaked out at the end, especially with Francois, kinda irritated me. Some of them have been fighting for thousands of years, and they choose NOW to start questioning life and existence?
Because Yuuji's declaration effectively made them useless. After Yuuji declares his plan, the flame hazes don't have any reason to fight anymore. Note that they already lost their humanity, and that they don't necessarily have some place to return to (like Khamsin's backstory ;_ ;). Some of them even exist solely for fighting Guze no Tomogara and protecting the balance, or "status quo".
The discrepancy of between season 2 and 3 is greater than the discrepancy between season 1 and season 2. Season 1, though has its dark moments (first 4 episodes), has its slice-of-life moments. Season 3 immediately discards all traces of SoL and romance, and will only work if the viewer was "absorbed" into the show.
EDIT: My favorite part of the episode was when Shana admitted in the last part that she can't do anything and that she didn't have the conviction to stand against Yuuji. Just shows that she isn't a tsundere anymore.
Modified by Dark_Pride, Jan 16, 2012 4:54 AM
Jan 16, 2012 7:36 AM
Jan 16, 2012 10:45 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Well of course Yuji's plan SOUNDS flawless...
Very few people seem to be acknowledging the extreme likelihood that his plan isn't all sunshine, lolipops and rainbows for everyone. If anything, I'd say Sophie knows the bad that will still come of his plan rather than just being a stubborn warmonger, but it could easily be both.
+ what Prism said.
This. I generally don't like Sophie either, but I don't think she's in this battle for the soul purpose of preserving status and power and the fear of change. Likewise, I don't believe that SoF has been entirely forthcoming with Yuji, despite multiple assurances otherwise. I think SoF and Sophie, as leaders to opposing ideas and factions, both know of a probable downside to SoF's/Yuji's new plan.
A dominant theme of this series has been ambiguity; most obviously in the ambiguity between right and wrong in war, but also in other aspects. I think that with that in mind, it's a big mistake to accept SoF's ambition as a flawlessly positive solution.
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Jan 16, 2012 3:29 PM
Jan 16, 2012 9:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
First and foremost i just wanna say it episodes like these that make me glad to be an otaku!!!
i felt i throw my opinion in ring: I want to with every fiber of my being want to believe that the S.N.F(yuji) plan is full proof but if there anything i;ve learned from the the numerous animes that i ve watched and manga that i've read is that No plan is full proof in anime theres obviously some huge flaw that were all missing that will ultimately ruin this plan and i believe that both sides leaders kno this. and another thing that seems to be getting at me is i kno that reji maigo is a treasure that contains a practically infinite amount of essensce but i still can't believe that it will have enough power an entire world(xanadu) EXACTLY the way it is now least not with out some drawback which is what i think the S.N.F is might be hiding from yuji even tho he said that he told him everything....
Jan 16, 2012 10:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
I love how the shows portrays the "bad guys" with reasonable reasons for doing what they're doing, but the "good guys" are portrayed as if they're arrogant and all that. It isn't that easy to really now who is really good and who is really bad, right now.
I imagine a similar situation of what's happening would be something like this:
Doctors, nurses and hospitals are used each day to cure and help people who are sick(balance and tradition) , but what if someone came saying there will be no more sick people(changing tradition), that would mean that millions of doctors and nurses would lose their job and everything they studied for would be for nothing. Why? Cause there won't be any use for them anymore. However the case of the flame haze, it isn't just a job but the very purpose and reason for their lives that they are losing.
Yuji/serpent kind of reminds me of a revolutionary, those kinds of people were always portrayed throughout history as being opposed by traditional people (in this show that would be the flame haze).
Yuji/serpent's plan seems very good and all, but I'm curious if what he's trying to do won't have any consequences. He wants to create a new world between theirs and the humans, but what if that in the end weakens the separation of both worlds and makes them collide with each other or something (this is only what I imagine of what could happen).
Jan 18, 2012 12:59 AM
Jan 18, 2012 10:33 AM