Fate/Zero Episode 12 Discussion

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Thess said:
Yeap. Heaven's Feel route is the only route that fits Fate/Zero as proper continuation, IMO. Theme wise and mood wise, Fate and UBW are completely against the atmosphere.

I agree Heaven's Feel would make a good sequel to Fate/Zero, it definitely fits the mood. But I still really want to see an Ufotable version of the Fate and UBW route as well, because Studio Deen screwed up there.

Dec 19, 2011 10:55 AM

#105

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Thess said:

Day2Dream said:
Episode kinda confused me on the whole servant/master thing now. F/S Night gave me the impression that masters kept their command spell when their servant died. :o

They do. Kirei's the son of the moderator, he could have his removed (also, he can remove command spells). Until the Holy Grail trolled him.

This is not well-explained. I think the "mark" remains as a sort of birthmark but the command spells themselves leave. As Assassin is dead Kirei's command spells were redistributed (back to him again as it turns out). His old command spells should have left a "mark" where they used to be though, but it's not something easily noticeable (not in the same way some bright red mark would be).

Dec 19, 2011 1:21 PM

#106

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Okaishi said:

Thess said:
Yeap. Heaven's Feel route is the only route that fits Fate/Zero as proper continuation, IMO. Theme wise and mood wise, Fate and UBW are completely against the atmosphere.

I agree Heaven's Feel would make a good sequel to Fate/Zero, it definitely fits the mood. But I still really want to see an Ufotable version of the Fate and UBW route as well, because Studio Deen screwed up there.

Yeah, being neutral about it, UBW never really resolves any of the plotlines that appear in Fate Zero (the Tohsaka/Matou deal goes pretty much unspoken, Kotomine vs Emiya also goes unspoken, the Grail stuff isn't addressed well, ZOUKEN doesn't appear, Illya's killed off early on, etc). Fate addresses mostly the Saber issues (unfortunately, they also attach her to a poorly written romance with a Japanese teenage boy that makes little sense but oh well, being Saber is suffering) and some Gil-Kotomine stuff but nowhere as full grimdark or thematic. Heaven's Feel DOES shaft Saber and Gilgamesh (although, Saber's end had a foreshadowing in Zero), but the rest of the stuff is properly addressed, including Third Magic, the real purpose of the Grail, etc.

Sorry, Goldie ;-:

I guess they could cut one kitchen scene and replace it with Gilgamesh vs Saber king babbling... to get this summarized and put it at rest.

ThessDec 19, 2011 1:25 PM

Dec 19, 2011 2:15 PM

#107

NatalijaW

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Archer wants Kirei as his Master (I understand that way). this is interesting. I'm wondering what's Kirei's wish...

𝓻𝓮𝓽𝓾𝓻𝓷 𝓽𝓸 𝓖𝓾𝓼𝓾 𝔀𝓲𝓽𝓱 𝓶𝓮

Dec 19, 2011 2:36 PM

#108

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Thess said:

xAwakeAlivex said:
Okay, i know you guys are gonna hate me for this , but the Gil/Kirei scene was just... my first thought was 'And here come the fanart', okay i lied it was the seond thought , the first being : 'Eeeep Gilgamesh! I love this guy'. And when Gil said : ''Now you must steal a Servant (...)'' i could almost HEAR him saying something along the lines of ''So, come and steal me Kirei'' xDDD Yeah, and Archer didn't pick up a chess piece that was an actual Archer figure on purpose or anything....

Why would anyone? Both Gilgamesh and Alexander the Great are pretty famous figures in the homosexual community (before Fate, I mean the epic/historical versions) because of their bisexuality (leaning on the homoromances side). Heck, Saber herself was married to a woman.

Oh yeah I forgot to comment on this. I'm well aware that Alexander the Great was homosexual. But I never knew Gil was. I read the epic of Gilgamesh (for a myth class back in high school) a couple of years ago and I don't remember anything indicating that. Unless I missed something.

Dec 19, 2011 2:39 PM

#109

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Thess said:
Yeah, being neutral about it, UBW never really resolves any of the plotlines that appear in Fate Zero (the Tohsaka/Matou deal goes pretty much unspoken, Kotomine vs Emiya also goes unspoken, the Grail stuff isn't addressed well, ZOUKEN doesn't appear, Illya's killed off early on, etc). Fate addresses mostly the Saber issues (unfortunately, they also attach her to a poorly written romance with a Japanese teenage boy that makes little sense but oh well, being Saber is suffering) and some Gil-Kotomine stuff but nowhere as full grimdark or thematic. Heaven's Feel DOES shaft Saber and Gilgamesh (although, Saber's end had a foreshadowing in Zero), but the rest of the stuff is properly addressed, including Third Magic, the real purpose of the Grail, etc.

Most of what you say just further elaborates why Heaven's Feel would be a better sequel to Fate/Zero plot and setting wise, and I can't really disagree with most of it. Even so, I don't think Fate and UBW are unworthy of a decent adaptation and this is why I'd enjoy a remake of these routes. And I don't agree with the poorly written romance part, but everyone has their tastes I suppose. Personally I was most moved by Fate's end, I thought it was really well done. You're free to disagree ofcourse.

Dec 19, 2011 2:54 PM

#110

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sallym613 said:
Oh yeah I forgot to comment on this. I'm well aware that Alexander the Great was homosexual. But I never knew Gil was. I read the epic of Gilgamesh (for a myth class back in high school) a couple of years ago and I don't remember anything indicating that. Unless I missed something.

He was bisexual (although technically, he was EVERYTHINGIRULEsexual?). Enkidu was made lit. to restrain his lust by the gods as his perfect complement (and he's being compared as how a spouse would be now, including the sexual/romantic connotations: woman/wife/etc in text. The whole caressing and hand-holding). They were soulmates. Achilles-Patroclus style.

Anyone Gil likes in Fate is because of any SIMILITUDE with Enkidu. The way he sees women seems mostly object-rapeish due to his era standard (while homolust is more consensual).

Okaishi said:
Most of what you say just further elaborates why Heaven's Feel would be a better sequel to Fate/Zero plot and setting wise, and I can't really disagree with most of it. Even so, I don't think Fate and UBW are unworthy of a decent adaptation and this is why I'd enjoy a remake of these routes. And I don't agree with the poorly written romance part, but everyone has their tastes I suppose. Personally I was most moved by Fate's end, I thought it was really well done. You're free to disagree ofcourse.

I mean in the UNLIKELY case ufotable produce it and pimp it as 'sequel'. Get Gen to do the script please. ;;

I like the three routes. I don't have A favorite, but favorite moments, per se. I dislike the way Saber is treated outside of Fate myself.

Oh I like Saber/Shirou a bit (mostly because whatever gives her rest in peace works), but... eh, intellectually, I can't fully buy 20-30s years old King Arthur falling for a random teenage boy she met in less than two weeks (she might look 14 years old, but she certainly isn't). He doesn't even look anything remotely special? If he had Gilgamesh's or dunno Diarmuid's looks, maybe Arthuria's attraction would be justified by the physical side until they grow closer. But Shirou is... meh.

I do think the relationship was moving, but it would have worked better if was kept nonsexual/nonromantic aside of a hint here or there (see Bazett and Avenger/Angra Mainyu in Ataraxia or Shirou and Illya in HF. Hell, Waver and Rider in Fate Zero, is another. They had more impact with me as realistic, because there was no forced romance. Bazett and Avenger did this for each other without sex or romance and it was touching as hell for me, in fact, Avenger's and Bazett's love interests are other people!).

ThessDec 19, 2011 3:10 PM

Dec 19, 2011 3:12 PM

#111

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Thess said:
I like the three routes. I don't have A favorite, but favorite moments, per se. I dislike the way Saber is treated outside of Fate myself.

Oh I like Saber/Shirou a bit (mostly because whatever gives her rest in peace works), but... eh, intellectually, I can't buy 20-30s years old King Arthur falling for a random teenage boy she met in less than two weeks (she might look 14 years old, but she certainly isn't). I do think the relationship was moving, but it would have worked better if was kept nonsexual/nonromantic aside of a hint here or there (see Bazett and Avenger/Angra Mainyu in Ataraxia or Shirou and Illya in HF. Hell, Waver and Rider in Fate Zero, is another. They had more impact with me as realistic, because there was no forced romance).

I'm going to put this in a spoiler tag just to be on the safe side.

OkaishiDec 19, 2011 3:26 PM

Dec 19, 2011 4:39 PM

#112

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Okaishi said:

Thing is that Saber felt less than a person and more like the symbol of Shirou's ideals in other routes, kind of like Sakura got shafted in the DOMESTIC NORMAL LIFE SYMBOL before Heaven’s Feel mindfuck. Pissed me off a lot (for Saber's and Sakura's sakes), because Rin never got this treatment (rather she was treated as sidekick/second protagonist all the time). Although, I guess it balanced the fact no route was focused on her? Still… Meh.

Well, to be honest, I am frankly glad my favorite Fate girl (Bazett) did not get this treatment. Heck yeah, female protagonist in her early 20s without being attached to Shirou's harem? Sign me up!

Saber was supposed to be 14-15 years old when she took the sword out the stone, however a decade and so passed since then (she never aged, but she was emotionally mature). She is really 20-30 years old king of Britain (25 IIRC).

The difference with Rin is that Rin romance is not really portrayed as EPIC LOVE, it’s just a girlfriend/boyfriend kind of thing with an uncertain future. Hell, it's mentioned Rin did not touch him again in a month during the epilogue (she became his mentor and stuff, but the most she did was to arm reach for him in front of Issei).

Also, she's an actual teenager who has met the guy (from stalking her sister, still) on passing and I can imagine some WIP romance more easily. Mind you, I like Saber/Shirou more than Rin/Shirou (I prefer them as bros), but Rin/Shirou was more realistic.

Of course, the only romance that isn't rushed is Sakura's. But that one ends up with them being a steady couple (two years together?) while Rin's is pretty much unsaid where their relationship stands, only their feelings. It's pretty realistic end for the type of relationship they had (Sakura was practically half living in Shirou's house before the War).

Caring for each other doesn’t always indicate romantic love. I found it implausible that Saber, with all the concerns in her mind, would even care to think about romance… Sorry, but that’s my opinion. They did not develop it realistically well to my tastes in the attraction from her side. Had Shirou be at least physically remarkable, well I’ll excuse King Arthur for being more lovesick. Probably it was Nasu's babysteps as writer, he did make a better relationship (Avenger and Bazett) with a waaaay more meaningful separation without need to force the characters into a rushed romance.

Don't even let me touch that Last Episode fanservice-add on in Realta Nua. The Continuation of the Dream was perfect end for Saber, dignified and peaceful without making her a stereotypical woman waiting for her man end that the Japanese love so much.

ThessDec 19, 2011 4:52 PM

Dec 19, 2011 6:24 PM

#113

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Thess said:

sallym613 said:
Oh yeah I forgot to comment on this. I'm well aware that Alexander the Great was homosexual. But I never knew Gil was. I read the epic of Gilgamesh (for a myth class back in high school) a couple of years ago and I don't remember anything indicating that. Unless I missed something.

He was bisexual (although technically, he was EVERYTHINGIRULEsexual?). Enkidu was made lit. to restrain his lust by the gods as his perfect complement (and he's being compared as how a spouse would be now, including the sexual/romantic connotations: woman/wife/etc in text. The whole caressing and hand-holding). They were soulmates. Achilles-Patroclus style.

Anyone Gil likes in Fate is because of any SIMILITUDE with Enkidu. The way he sees women seems mostly object-rapeish due to his era standard (while homolust is more consensual).

Couldn't help but rofl at the bolded part xD

But anyways, that's interesting. I had the impression that it was just a really special grown-men/best-friend relationship between them. Instead of what you just explained. I really dont remember the whole "caressing and hand-holding" parts though. Guess I should go reread the epic if I can find a copy.

Dec 19, 2011 7:05 PM

#114

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sallym613 said:
But anyways, that's interesting. I had the impression that it was just a really special grown-men/best-friend relationship between them. Instead of what you just explained. I really dont remember the whole "caressing and hand-holding" parts though. Guess I should go reread the epic if I can find a copy.

He is his best friend, but in that era, that involved sex... Kind of like you hug your friends now or kiss their cheeks. The comrades were usually your life partner in every sense (while the wives were there only to bear a heir and continue the bloodline). Ninsun told Gil: "You will love him as a woman and he will never forsake you". As a woman indicates... you know. When Gil mourns him in the epic, he's described as a widow and a bride grief.

Technically, Enkidu isn't a man either, he's an androgynous being made of mud (some descriptions of him are pretty androgynous, which is what the Fate/strange fake stuff was based on. It's not an asspull like Nero or Arthur). Sometimes Enkidu is referred as "It" in the tablets.

ThessDec 19, 2011 7:11 PM

Dec 19, 2011 7:43 PM

#115

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Thess said:

sallym613 said:
But anyways, that's interesting. I had the impression that it was just a really special grown-men/best-friend relationship between them. Instead of what you just explained. I really dont remember the whole "caressing and hand-holding" parts though. Guess I should go reread the epic if I can find a copy.

He is his best friend, but in that era, that involved sex... Kind of like you hug your friends now or kiss their cheeks. The comrades were usually your life partner in every sense (while the wives were there only to bear a heir and continue the bloodline). Ninsun told Gil: "You will love him as a woman and he will never forsake you". As a woman indicates... you know. When Gil mourns him in the epic, he's described as a widow and a bride grief.

Technically, Enkidu isn't a man either, he's an androgynous being made of mud (some descriptions of him are pretty androgynous, which is what the Fate/strange fake stuff was based on. It's not an asspull like Nero or Arthur). Sometimes Enkidu is referred as "It" in the tablets.

Oh I see. That aspect of the culture..I didn't know. And I almost forgot about Enkidu's origins until you mentioned it xD

Also, I have very strong mixed feelings about Enkidu being a...she in Fate/Strange fake? o.O Nvm. I just confirmed his "gender" after checking Typemoon wiki.

Nevertheless, when I first heard about Fate/Strange Fake and that Enkidu was in it, I decided to check out how his character looks like. And my initial reaction was: O__O Wth. Considering how I've always had the impression that he would look something like this:
http://www.zerochan.net/808843
Well...it was a pretty big surprise for me when I first saw the character design.

Thanks for the insights btw.

Dec 19, 2011 8:01 PM

#116

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I'll not bother quotiong the part I want to answer since it's in between a lot of text but, something I want to remind you of the Rin/Shirou deal:

Phew.

Dec 19, 2011 9:55 PM

#117

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sallym613 said:
Oh I see. That aspect of the culture..I didn't know. And I almost forgot about Enkidu's origins until you mentioned it xD

Also, I have very strong mixed feelings about Enkidu being a...she in Fate/Strange fake? o.O Nvm. I just confirmed his "gender" after checking Typemoon wiki.

Nevertheless, when I first heard about Fate/Strange Fake and that Enkidu was in it, I decided to check out how his character looks like. And my initial reaction was: O__O Wth. Considering how I've always had the impression that he would look something like this:
http://www.zerochan.net/808843
Well...it was a pretty big surprise for me when I first saw the character design.

Thanks for the insights btw.

TBH, I like manlier Enkidu better, but I like the green hair (somehow the connection to nature fits Gilgamesh's gold-metal as complement). The whole thing of having the face of a woman is on some takes of the epic/legend, so... it's accurate (not a Saber case). This is the closest to a canon Enkidu (from Complete character materials) FOR NOW:

Enkidu, the fairest of all. Only the best for the King of Heroes. I don't think Enkidu is fully female, it's just genderless? He certainly has a bishie-boyish male voice in the Fate Zero CD drama. It's a person made of mud who shapeshifted itself. Probably can be whatever they want (was beastly first, then not, etc).

ThessDec 19, 2011 10:02 PM

Dec 19, 2011 10:06 PM

#118

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Thess said:
TBH, I like manlier Enkidu better, but I like the green hair (somehow the connection to nature fits Gilgamesh's gold-metal as complement). The whole thing of having the face of a woman is on some takes of the epic/legend, so... it's accurate (not a Saber case). This is the closest to a canon Enkidu (from Complete character materials):

Same here. Tbh, I really thought of Enkidu as someone very hairy with a big body build. I was going to show you another fanfic picture that has the perfect impression or image that I have of him in mind but I couldn't find it anymore online (at least on zerochan)

You pointed out something interesting about the reason why they made Enkidu's hair green. I've actually always wondered why they chose green out of all the other hair colors they could have chosen. I was thinking that they could have made his hair brown (I'm thinking about his origins of how he was made from mud) but I guess the green hair isn't too bad. I was initially baffled about why they chose green, let alone that shade of green.

Hmmm..I don't remember the parts about Enkidu having a face of a woman. That's probably the main reason why I reacted like I did when I first saw Fate/Strange Fake's version of Enkidu. I was expecting him to look more...manlier with a huge body xD Not someone...somewhat petite-looking. I admit though..Enkidu has a pretty (in a feminine way) face lol.

Dec 20, 2011 12:03 AM

#119

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sallym613 said:

Thess said:
TBH, I like manlier Enkidu better, but I like the green hair (somehow the connection to nature fits Gilgamesh's gold-metal as complement). The whole thing of having the face of a woman is on some takes of the epic/legend, so... it's accurate (not a Saber case). This is the closest to a canon Enkidu (from Complete character materials):

Same here. Tbh, I really thought of Enkidu as someone very hairy with a big body build. I was going to show you another fanfic picture that has the perfect impression or image that I have of him in mind but I couldn't find it anymore online (at least on zerochan)

You pointed out something interesting about the reason why they made Enkidu's hair green. I've actually always wondered why they chose green out of all the other hair colors they could have chosen. I was thinking that they could have made his hair brown (I'm thinking about his origins of how he was made from mud) but I guess the green hair isn't too bad. I was initially baffled about why they chose green, let alone that shade of green.

Hmmm..I don't remember the parts about Enkidu having a face of a woman. That's probably the main reason why I reacted like I did when I first saw Fate/Strange Fake's version of Enkidu. I was expecting him to look more...manlier with a huge body xD Not someone...somewhat petite-looking. I admit though..Enkidu has a pretty (in a feminine way) face lol.

The one who was supposed to be manly and beardy is Gilgamesh.

Swap his design with Alexander the Great and you get a closer appearance for both of them lol.

http://www.piney.com/Enki.html

Read that. Enkidu was originally hairy and bestial because he communed with animals (including er bestiality lol Mesopotamians), but after meeting Shamhat, he molded himself to resemble her.

Dec 20, 2011 3:30 AM

#120

Darkfater

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So i guess Gilgamesh finally offered himself to Kirei, if only subtly :) He's too proud to say it directly. :) I like how he awakens the sadistic bastard side of Kirei we knew and loved in F/SN.

Dec 20, 2011 9:27 AM

#121

Sigsig

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Lestrade said:
While quite uneventful this episode was very interesting nonetheless.
I really like how the equality of all masters is reinforced once again hence the small number of defeated servants. Hell, if Kirei would have cared about the grail to begin with Assassin probably would have been still alive.

I guess the spells Irisviel casted in the storehouse are the reason why Saber got summoned by Shiro unintentionally one decade later.

Overall, this episode mainly served to give the viewers more information concerning the rules of the holy grail war but it also fleshed out Kirei's character. I think it is also the first time when Kirei is seen losing his composure. Archer certainly did a nice job in analyzing Kirei's true nature which even Kirei himself wasn't fully aware of. Everything is set up for Kirei's betrayal of his mentor now...

On another note I wonder what Kirei sees in Kariya as Archer pointed out since he doesn't seem to pose such a great threat. Though, it would be convenient to have him as the last opponent to face as one could just wait until Kariya is weakened to such a extent that he isn't able to control Berserker anymore and would be an easy prey, I guess.

Looks like we get to see Lancer and Caster next episode. I wonder if one of them will bite the dust seeing that it will be the last episode before the break .

That, and also Shiro has avalon.
Kariya is suffering, and he will likely suffer to his death. I guess that makes Kirei a sadist? :/

Yea, can't wait for the next episode.. probably some epic scramble to kill Caster for the extra reward

オタクなんじゃねぃよ
I'm not an otaku.

Dec 20, 2011 3:01 PM

#122

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Thess said:

Thing is that Saber felt less than a person and more like the symbol of Shirou's ideals in other routes, kind of like Sakura got shafted in the DOMESTIC NORMAL LIFE SYMBOL before Heaven’s Feel mindfuck. Pissed me off a lot (for Saber's and Sakura's sakes), because Rin never got this treatment (rather she was treated as sidekick/second protagonist all the time). Although, I guess it balanced the fact no route was focused on her? Still… Meh.

Well, to be honest, I am frankly glad my favorite Fate girl (Bazett) did not get this treatment. Heck yeah, female protagonist in her early 20s without being attached to Shirou's harem? Sign me up!

Saber was supposed to be 14-15 years old when she took the sword out the stone, however a decade and so passed since then (she never aged, but she was emotionally mature). She is really 20-30 years old king of Britain (25 IIRC).

The difference with Rin is that Rin romance is not really portrayed as EPIC LOVE, it’s just a girlfriend/boyfriend kind of thing with an uncertain future. Hell, it's mentioned Rin did not touch him again in a month during the epilogue (she became his mentor and stuff, but the most she did was to arm reach for him in front of Issei).

Also, she's an actual teenager who has met the guy (from stalking her sister, still) on passing and I can imagine some WIP romance more easily. Mind you, I like Saber/Shirou more than Rin/Shirou (I prefer them as bros), but Rin/Shirou was more realistic.

Of course, the only romance that isn't rushed is Sakura's. But that one ends up with them being a steady couple (two years together?) while Rin's is pretty much unsaid where their relationship stands, only their feelings. It's pretty realistic end for the type of relationship they had (Sakura was practically half living in Shirou's house before the War).

Caring for each other doesn’t always indicate romantic love. I found it implausible that Saber, with all the concerns in her mind, would even care to think about romance… Sorry, but that’s my opinion. They did not develop it realistically well to my tastes in the attraction from her side. Had Shirou be at least physically remarkable, well I’ll excuse King Arthur for being more lovesick. Probably it was Nasu's babysteps as writer, he did make a better relationship (Avenger and Bazett) with a waaaay more meaningful separation without need to force the characters into a rushed romance.

Don't even let me touch that Last Episode fanservice-add on in Realta Nua. The Continuation of the Dream was perfect end for Saber, dignified and peaceful without making her a stereotypical woman waiting for her man end that the Japanese love so much.

OkaishiDec 20, 2011 3:05 PM

Dec 20, 2011 3:07 PM

#123

Orulyon

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Gil is such a sadistic king XD and geez he really drinks a lot, doesnt he? XP

ワンダーランド花 ♥

Dec 20, 2011 3:23 PM

#124

Veethorn

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Gilgamesh you sly dog, what do you mean?? Great episode, although at this point I crave for some mad servant action!!

Dec 20, 2011 7:21 PM

#125

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Okaishi said:

I like Saber more than Sakura as character by far, but I agree with Nasu when he said that Sakura’s the first girl in Shirou’s heart. She’s the most suitable love interest and works thematically better when contrasted with the story of Zero and Kiritsugu’s ideals (Illya can work too, thematically speaking. Saber and Rin seem thrown in there for the sake of eroge, IMO). Illya acts pretty mature during HF and she is a modern girl. Arthuria lived in an age where 25 years old meant middle 40s, you know? She was a King of a nation.

That episode made me rage so hard. Firstly, because Saber isn’t some lovesick girl who cannot live without the guy she met for less than two weeks. That’s Sakura-behavior, and at least she met Shirou for longer than that. They basically destroyed her characterization to shoehorn that pipedream that logistically is impossible to accomplish in Nasuverse. It WAS “Waiting for her man.” It was even explicitly said that she remained there, waiting endlessly for him. How it doesn’t undermine her characterization and the acceptance of their separation which was the beauty of that conclusion? IT was never about their love or relationship, it was about their IDEALS. They never had a romantic relationship in the first place (they had feeling for each others, but they were never a couple).

Japanese fiction is filled with the I WILL WAIT FOR YOU cliché and it annoys me unless it’s done well. Saber’s characterization certainly doesn’t fit it (neither does Rin’s, for that matter).

I don’t think you understand what I meant: I just don’t think realistic for Saber to fall for Shirou, to care for him? Sure. You don’t HAVE to fall in love for that or to connect with others. She is still a middle aged king (for her era) that just happens to be in teenage body. How come a Japanese boy even catches her eye so suddenly? That’s why, IMO, Avenger’s and Bazett’s relationship is a thousand of time more well-crafted. There’s no sexing up forced scene, no shoehorn feelings, no unrealistically expectations for a woman in her 20s falling for someone who looks in his teens, etc.

It seems that Saber just did because it’s an eroge, so the whole thing was forced. Had this last longer and wasn’t so rushed (it… just came out after the forced sex scene which didn’t help at all), then sure…

I do love Continuation of the Dream so much. I love it because it’s about Saber’s peace and not about her feelings for Shirou. The other ending smears this and makes her a cutesy love interest. I can understand why people like it, I just dislike it. The music is awesome, though.

ThessDec 20, 2011 7:25 PM

Dec 20, 2011 8:07 PM

#126

walyi_desu

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Nov 2011

10

I remerber that this season has 13 EP.
Gill's chessboard make a lot of hint from staff, actually I think it preview a lot of change of the relationship between master and servent.
Umm..I think next EP will show stop at rider's attack~

Dec 20, 2011 9:46 PM

#127

Ragna92

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Aug 2010

3861

Awesome episode. I can't believe an episode filled with dialogue went by so fast.

The conversation with Gil and Kotomine was really interesting. Hopefully the finale of this season will end well.

Dec 21, 2011 6:44 AM

#128

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Thess said:

I like Saber more than Sakura as character by far, but I agree with Nasu when he said that Sakura’s the first girl in Shirou’s heart. She’s the most suitable love interest and works thematically better when contrasted with the story of Zero and Kiritsugu’s ideals (Illya can work too, thematically speaking. Saber and Rin seem thrown in there for the sake of eroge, IMO). Illya acts pretty mature during HF and she is a modern girl. Arthuria lived in an age where 25 years old meant middle 40s, you know? She was a King of a nation.

That episode made me rage so hard. Firstly, because Saber isn’t some lovesick girl who cannot live without the guy she met for less than two weeks. That’s Sakura-behavior, and at least she met Shirou for longer than that. They basically destroyed her characterization to shoehorn that pipedream that logistically is impossible to accomplish in Nasuverse. It WAS “Waiting for her man.” It was even explicitly said that she remained there, waiting endlessly for him. How it doesn’t undermine her characterization and the acceptance of their separation which was the beauty of that conclusion? IT was never about their love or relationship, it was about their IDEALS. They never had a romantic relationship in the first place (they had feeling for each others, but they were never a couple).

Japanese fiction is filled with the I WILL WAIT FOR YOU cliché and it annoys me unless it’s done well. Saber’s characterization certainly doesn’t fit it (neither does Rin’s, for that matter).

I don’t think you understand what I meant: I just don’t think realistic for Saber to fall for Shirou, to care for him? Sure. You don’t HAVE to fall in love for that or to connect with others. She is still a middle aged king (for her era) that just happens to be in teenage body. How come a Japanese boy even catches her eye so suddenly? That’s why, IMO, Avenger’s and Bazett’s relationship is a thousand of time more well-crafted. There’s no sexing up forced scene, no shoehorn feelings, no unrealistically expectations for a woman in her 20s falling for someone who looks in his teens, etc.

It seems that Saber just did because it’s an eroge, so the whole thing was forced. Had this last longer and wasn’t so rushed (it… just came out after the forced sex scene which didn’t help at all), then sure…

I do love Continuation of the Dream so much. I love it because it’s about Saber’s peace and not about her feelings for Shirou. The other ending smears this and makes her a cutesy love interest. I can understand why people like it, I just dislike it. The music is awesome, though.

OkaishiDec 21, 2011 6:49 AM

Dec 21, 2011 8:14 AM

#129

Yunoleff

Offline

Jan 2010

180

I enjoyed the episode, but then again its difficult for me to not enjoy a Fate/Zero episode, especially one with Kirei and Gilgamesh being Kirei and Gilgamesh.
Season 1 has been very good and I hope they finish it on a high note. It will be painful to wait for the 2nd season though, maybe I'll read the LN but I'm not sure.

And regarding Thess and Okaishi's discussion, I'm gonna have to agree with Thess, I didn't care for Last Episode that much, I thought Fate's ending was good the way it was(one of the strongest points of the route in my opinion), no reason for it to be "expanded". But I guess it was a nice treat for Saber fans. As for which girl was more suited for Shirou, it's a matter of preference...

YunoleffDec 21, 2011 10:55 AM

Dec 21, 2011 11:01 AM

#130

ChronosXIII

Offline

Mar 2009

2460

What? ALL of Assassin was killed last episode? Heh, I thought there would have been more.

Holy crap, the new base looks a lot like that "inn" in Fate/stay Night.

Oh damn, Gilgamesh's constant questioning finally broke Kirei's current state of mind. But...why would he need to steal another Servant? Hell, I'm just confused. A Master lost his Servant so the Command Seals should have been given to the judge who is Kirei's dad right? Why would he get them again if a Servant was the one that died and not a Master?

Dec 21, 2011 12:00 PM

#131

Offline

Dec 2007

4845

ChronosXIII said:
What? ALL of Assassin was killed last episode? Heh, I thought there would have been more.

Holy crap, the new base looks a lot like that "inn" in Fate/stay Night.

Oh damn, Gilgamesh's constant questioning finally broke Kirei's current state of mind. But...why would he need to steal another Servant? Hell, I'm just confused. A Master lost his Servant so the Command Seals should have been given to the judge who is Kirei's dad right? Why would he get them again if a Servant was the one that died and not a Master?

The judge gets them at the end of the War, not before it ends. And he needs to steal one because he's currently a Servant-less Master. Listen to Kirei's explanation again. If you yell that F/SN didn't had this happenning, just chalk it up to different writers.

Dec 21, 2011 5:07 PM

#132

ScarletMuse

Offline

Feb 2010

839

More conversation between Kerei and Archer. Other than Rider, I'm high anticipating the events between those two and Tokiomi.

Dec 22, 2011 11:13 AM

#133

Gamaliel

Offline

Aug 2011

71

All right, pictures of episode 13 . the last of the season.

Nothing much to say, or see.

Dec 22, 2011 12:30 PM

#134

scholes18

Offline

Oct 2011

380

i really don't understand why Gil is so interesting about Kirie ?

Dec 22, 2011 1:24 PM

#135