| Gil lost because of plot like he always does. |
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| Gilgamesh didn't use his full power when he should have. He toyed with Shirou while Shirou was preparing Unlimited Blade Works. Once UBW was up, Gil had no advantage. He could have won if he had worn armor, but that's more like a plot decision there. And Nasu exagerates Gil's strenght in interviews. Technically it's Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's that could win the war easily, more especifically he has several hundreds if not thousands stored in his vault, like the Vimana he used in Zero and Ea which is his personal Noble Phantasm and is the strongest NP in terms of offense (with only Avalon being able to neutralize it). But again, since e stores all his weapons in his vault, once he's inside Unlimited Blade Works Shirou or Archer can use their speed advantage to stop him from summoning any weapon at all. He would only be able to throw swords like he normally does which means he can't use their magical abilities. |
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Leon-Gun said: Gilgamesh didn't use his full power when he should have. He toyed with Shirou while Shirou was preparing Unlimited Blade Works. Once UBW was up, Gil had no advantage. He could have won if he had worn armor, but that's more like a plot decision there. And Nasu exagerates Gil's strenght in interviews. Technically it's Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's that could win the war easily, more especifically he has several hundreds if not thousands stored in his vault, like the Vimana he used in Zero and Ea which is his personal Noble Phantasm and is the strongest NP in terms of offense (with only Avalon being able to neutralize it). But again, since e stores all his weapons in his vault, once he's inside Unlimited Blade Works Shirou or Archer can use their speed advantage to stop him from summoning any weapon at all. He would only be able to throw swords like he normally does which means he can't use their magical abilities. I don't get how a servant can be that physically weak. His strength is B and basically any servant is much stronger then a human. He should of been able to beat Shirou in a straight up fight with his NPs. |
Ragna92Dec 10, 2011 11:44 PM
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Ragna92 said: He's not weak per-se, SHhirou was tricked out with Rin's massive amount of stored prana and he was bombarding Gil with Archer's traced collection of NP's. It's basically a one in a lifetime "perfect storm" situation. IMO Archer could have easily overwhelmed Gilgamesh in the same situation but Gilgamesh would have expected a tougher fight hence not toyed around so much. So the irony is that Shirou was saved "precisely" because he was frail. His only ace was UBW, similar to how Gil's "I win" button is Ea.Leon-Gun said: Gilgamesh didn't use his full power when he should have. He toyed with Shirou while Shirou was preparing Unlimited Blade Works. Once UBW was up, Gil had no advantage. He could have won if he had worn armor, but that's more like a plot decision there. And Nasu exagerates Gil's strenght in interviews. Technically it's Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's that could win the war easily, more especifically he has several hundreds if not thousands stored in his vault, like the Vimana he used in Zero and Ea which is his personal Noble Phantasm and is the strongest NP in terms of offense (with only Avalon being able to neutralize it). But again, since e stores all his weapons in his vault, once he's inside Unlimited Blade Works Shirou or Archer can use their speed advantage to stop him from summoning any weapon at all. He would only be able to throw swords like he normally does which means he can't use their magical abilities. I don't get how a servant can be that physically weak. His strength is B and basically any servant is much stronger then a human. He should of been able to beat Shirou in a straight up fight with his NPs. just to remind people UBW's true strength, once cast it allows Shirou inmediate access to any weapon he has traced and the normal degradation from tracing doesn't occur so he has access to perfect "fakes" complete with the history of the weapon. You mustn't also forget Shirou still has slight benefit from Avalon AND UBW can turn Shirou's body into swords. It's basically plot armor. |
Leon-GunDec 11, 2011 1:10 AM
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| With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable. There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants. I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol |
Day2Dream said: Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable. There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants. I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol |
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Leon-Gun said: Day2Dream said: Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable. There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants. I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol Shirou = Young Archer If his younger and weaker version was able to trace Caliburn surely the older and stronger Archer could have done the same. Plus he was still contracted to Rin. |
Day2Dream said: Nah, Shirou only managed to do it one single time, while having a direct connection to Saber and her memories. I doubt Archer, after no longer having a contract with Saber and with no direct way of accessing Saber's memories, can actually replicate Caliburn, a sword that no longer exists. He can replicate Gram (in fact, in the movie, Gram, the original sword that spawned the legend of the sword of choosing, was already in Archer's UBW) and given some time he can replicate something close to Excalibur, but Caliburn? No.Leon-Gun said: Day2Dream said: Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable. There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants. I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol Shirou = Young Archer If his younger and weaker version was able to trace Caliburn surely the older and stronger Archer could have done the same. Plus he was still contracted to Rin. |
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Leon-Gun said: Day2Dream said: Nah, Shirou only managed to do it one single time, while having a direct connection to Saber and her memories. I doubt Archer, after no longer having a contract with Saber and with no direct way of accessing Saber's memories, can actually replicate Caliburn, a sword that no longer exists. He can replicate Gram (in fact, in the movie, Gram, the original sword that spawned the legend of the sword of choosing, was already in Archer's UBW) and given some time he can replicate something close to Excalibur, but Caliburn? No.Leon-Gun said: Day2Dream said: Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable. There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants. I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol Shirou = Young Archer If his younger and weaker version was able to trace Caliburn surely the older and stronger Archer could have done the same. Plus he was still contracted to Rin. Was going to say Archer is older version of Shirou and thus should have been in this Holy Grail War before, thus should have been with Saber and seen Excalibur but he lost his memories due to fail Rin... I guess I forgot that he forgot. :/ |
| Well, it never explicitly states that he forgot. He might have the "data" stored away somewhere, since UBW supposedly contains the information of all weapons previously encountered. By that logic, since Archer is supposed to be the eventual outcome of post Fate-route Shirou, then said logic would dictate that Archer would be able to trace Caliburn. Whether he could use it to its full potential (or to the potential that the dropped rank allows) is unlikely given the circumstances under which it was originally used in the Fate route. But, most importantly, most of everything discussed is pretty much theory and conjecture. For starters, we don't really have any concrete information to confirm or deny any of this, and, perhaps more importantly, shit that doesn't make sense happens ALL THE TIME in the Nasuverse simply for the sake of plot. Whoever hasn't figured that out yet hasn't seen enough Nasu material yet... |
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Day2Dream said: I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol Well, something had to be done to prevent the first route from becoming UBW. There's also the mention of caster and her master. Having his master be able to fight saber in hand to hand combat still feels wrong. You feel cheated when a story tries to explain the workings of its fictional universe to the audience and then cheats and breaks those rules, without explanation, for no other reason than to advance the plot. |
AzureBlues said: Day2Dream said: I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol Well, something had to be done to prevent the first route from becoming UBW. It's not to prevent occurring the UBW route. Besides, in UBW, Archer didn't fight head on but on a very long range shot yet in Fate, he fought Berserker head on. That concludes Archer has no match against Berserker. Archer just fought him head on just to buy time for Shirou and the rest. Also, it was explained on Shirou and Saber vs Berserker episode about Caliburn that the Caliburn is a "1 hit KO" sword. |
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Sa-chan_ said: Actually Caliburn isnt a 1-hit KO sword.If Archer hadnt killed Berserker 6 times(VN) they would be dead.AzureBlues said: Day2Dream said: I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol Well, something had to be done to prevent the first route from becoming UBW. It's not to prevent occurring the UBW route. Besides, in UBW, Archer didn't fight head on but on a very long range shot yet in Fate, he fought Berserker head on. That concludes Archer has no match against Berserker. Archer just fought him head on just to buy time for Shirou and the rest. Also, it was explained on Shirou and Saber vs Berserker episode about Caliburn that the Caliburn is a "1 hit KO" sword. |
| i can explain it in 2 ways 1.main charcters never die 2.till they enterd the reality marble, gilgamese was going easy on him(i know it isnt an excuse but its the truth) and in the marble (i assume) emiya and his blades becamed stronger and till gilgamese started takeing it siriesly, emiya already was at his full powers (marble/excaliber) so i think humans CAN kill servents |
| i got no gif for my signature..... imagine some cool swords clashing and light and fighting everywhere! |
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