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#1
Dec 3, 2011 9:27 PM
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servants are supposed to be many times stronger than humans in terms of speed, strength, etc. even if gilgamesh is archer class and not strong in melee, he should be able to take down any human without any problems.
i dont understand how "arrogance" or "underestimation" could make the strongest servant of all(yes gilgamesh is the strongest servant. according to Nasu he can win the entire Holy Grail War in just 5 days if he tried) lose to a mere human, even if he is to become a hero in the future (yet not for many years) and even if he is a Master and a magus. one would assume as soon as one saw the chance of losing, even gilgamesh would become serious to defeat his opponent.arrogance and underestimation shouldnt be legit excuses...
i think shirou defeating gilgamesh is just downright outrageous and i think shirou got too much "main character suddenly is so f**king powerful" buff.
this is one of my biggest disappointments to fsn(i still love it) and one of the reasons why fate zero(which doesnt have these problems) is so awesome
Modified by Kimura, Dec 16, 2011 8:46 AM
 
#2
Dec 10, 2011 3:47 PM

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Gil lost because of plot like he always does.
 
#3
Dec 10, 2011 6:12 PM
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Gilgamesh didn't use his full power when he should have. He toyed with Shirou while Shirou was preparing Unlimited Blade Works. Once UBW was up, Gil had no advantage. He could have won if he had worn armor, but that's more like a plot decision there. And Nasu exagerates Gil's strenght in interviews. Technically it's Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's that could win the war easily, more especifically he has several hundreds if not thousands stored in his vault, like the Vimana he used in Zero and Ea which is his personal Noble Phantasm and is the strongest NP in terms of offense (with only Avalon being able to neutralize it).

But again, since e stores all his weapons in his vault, once he's inside Unlimited Blade Works Shirou or Archer can use their speed advantage to stop him from summoning any weapon at all. He would only be able to throw swords like he normally does which means he can't use their magical abilities.

 
#4
Dec 10, 2011 11:41 PM

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Leon-Gun said:
Gilgamesh didn't use his full power when he should have. He toyed with Shirou while Shirou was preparing Unlimited Blade Works. Once UBW was up, Gil had no advantage. He could have won if he had worn armor, but that's more like a plot decision there. And Nasu exagerates Gil's strenght in interviews. Technically it's Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's that could win the war easily, more especifically he has several hundreds if not thousands stored in his vault, like the Vimana he used in Zero and Ea which is his personal Noble Phantasm and is the strongest NP in terms of offense (with only Avalon being able to neutralize it).

But again, since e stores all his weapons in his vault, once he's inside Unlimited Blade Works Shirou or Archer can use their speed advantage to stop him from summoning any weapon at all. He would only be able to throw swords like he normally does which means he can't use their magical abilities.


I don't get how a servant can be that physically weak. His strength is B and basically any servant is much stronger then a human. He should of been able to beat Shirou in a straight up fight with his NPs.
Modified by Ragna92, Dec 10, 2011 11:44 PM
 
#5
Dec 11, 2011 1:05 AM
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Ragna92 said:
Leon-Gun said:
Gilgamesh didn't use his full power when he should have. He toyed with Shirou while Shirou was preparing Unlimited Blade Works. Once UBW was up, Gil had no advantage. He could have won if he had worn armor, but that's more like a plot decision there. And Nasu exagerates Gil's strenght in interviews. Technically it's Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's that could win the war easily, more especifically he has several hundreds if not thousands stored in his vault, like the Vimana he used in Zero and Ea which is his personal Noble Phantasm and is the strongest NP in terms of offense (with only Avalon being able to neutralize it).

But again, since e stores all his weapons in his vault, once he's inside Unlimited Blade Works Shirou or Archer can use their speed advantage to stop him from summoning any weapon at all. He would only be able to throw swords like he normally does which means he can't use their magical abilities.


I don't get how a servant can be that physically weak. His strength is B and basically any servant is much stronger then a human. He should of been able to beat Shirou in a straight up fight with his NPs.
He's not weak per-se, SHhirou was tricked out with Rin's massive amount of stored prana and he was bombarding Gil with Archer's traced collection of NP's. It's basically a one in a lifetime "perfect storm" situation. IMO Archer could have easily overwhelmed Gilgamesh in the same situation but Gilgamesh would have expected a tougher fight hence not toyed around so much. So the irony is that Shirou was saved "precisely" because he was frail. His only ace was UBW, similar to how Gil's "I win" button is Ea.

just to remind people UBW's true strength, once cast it allows Shirou inmediate access to any weapon he has traced and the normal degradation from tracing doesn't occur so he has access to perfect "fakes" complete with the history of the weapon. You mustn't also forget Shirou still has slight benefit from Avalon AND UBW can turn Shirou's body into swords. It's basically plot armor.
Modified by Leon-Gun, Dec 11, 2011 1:10 AM

 
#6
Dec 11, 2011 6:10 PM

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With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable.

There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants.

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol
 
#7
Dec 11, 2011 6:35 PM
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Day2Dream said:
With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable.

There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants.

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol
Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.

 
#8
Dec 12, 2011 7:25 AM

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Leon-Gun said:
Day2Dream said:
With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable.

There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants.

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol
Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.

Shirou = Young Archer

If his younger and weaker version was able to trace Caliburn surely the older and stronger Archer could have done the same. Plus he was still contracted to Rin.
 
#9
Dec 18, 2011 1:22 AM
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Day2Dream said:
Leon-Gun said:
Day2Dream said:
With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable.

There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants.

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol
Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.

Shirou = Young Archer

If his younger and weaker version was able to trace Caliburn surely the older and stronger Archer could have done the same. Plus he was still contracted to Rin.
Nah, Shirou only managed to do it one single time, while having a direct connection to Saber and her memories. I doubt Archer, after no longer having a contract with Saber and with no direct way of accessing Saber's memories, can actually replicate Caliburn, a sword that no longer exists. He can replicate Gram (in fact, in the movie, Gram, the original sword that spawned the legend of the sword of choosing, was already in Archer's UBW) and given some time he can replicate something close to Excalibur, but Caliburn? No.

 
Dec 20, 2011 8:20 PM

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Leon-Gun said:
Day2Dream said:
Leon-Gun said:
Day2Dream said:
With UBW up the weapon strength were pretty much the same so it's believable.

There's also the issue with mana supply. Servants need to be supplied with mana by the master. No master = death for servants.

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol
Archer didn't had enough A+ weapons and it's much or less assumed by everyone that Archer didn't get the chance to unleash Unlimited Blade Works in the VN so the whole scene in the anime was crap. Also, Caliburn with Saber's Mana = dead Berserker.

Shirou = Young Archer

If his younger and weaker version was able to trace Caliburn surely the older and stronger Archer could have done the same. Plus he was still contracted to Rin.
Nah, Shirou only managed to do it one single time, while having a direct connection to Saber and her memories. I doubt Archer, after no longer having a contract with Saber and with no direct way of accessing Saber's memories, can actually replicate Caliburn, a sword that no longer exists. He can replicate Gram (in fact, in the movie, Gram, the original sword that spawned the legend of the sword of choosing, was already in Archer's UBW) and given some time he can replicate something close to Excalibur, but Caliburn? No.

Was going to say Archer is older version of Shirou and thus should have been in this Holy Grail War before, thus should have been with Saber and seen Excalibur but he lost his memories due to fail Rin...

I guess I forgot that he forgot. :/
 
Dec 30, 2011 2:51 AM

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Well, it never explicitly states that he forgot. He might have the "data" stored away somewhere, since UBW supposedly contains the information of all weapons previously encountered. By that logic, since Archer is supposed to be the eventual outcome of post Fate-route Shirou, then said logic would dictate that Archer would be able to trace Caliburn. Whether he could use it to its full potential (or to the potential that the dropped rank allows) is unlikely given the circumstances under which it was originally used in the Fate route.

But, most importantly, most of everything discussed is pretty much theory and conjecture. For starters, we don't really have any concrete information to confirm or deny any of this, and, perhaps more importantly, shit that doesn't make sense happens ALL THE TIME in the Nasuverse simply for the sake of plot. Whoever hasn't figured that out yet hasn't seen enough Nasu material yet...
 
Oct 21, 2012 1:32 AM

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Day2Dream said:

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol

Well, something had to be done to prevent the first route from becoming UBW.

There's also the mention of caster and her master. Having his master be able to fight saber in hand to hand combat still feels wrong. You feel cheated when a story tries to explain the workings of its fictional universe to the audience and then cheats and breaks those rules, without explanation, for no other reason than to advance the plot.
 
Oct 30, 2012 11:36 AM

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AzureBlues said:
Day2Dream said:

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol

Well, something had to be done to prevent the first route from becoming UBW.


It's not to prevent occurring the UBW route. Besides, in UBW, Archer didn't fight head on but on a very long range shot yet in Fate, he fought Berserker head on. That concludes Archer has no match against Berserker. Archer just fought him head on just to buy time for Shirou and the rest. Also, it was explained on Shirou and Saber vs Berserker episode about Caliburn that the Caliburn is a "1 hit KO" sword.


 
Mar 7, 2013 6:11 AM

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Sa-chan_ said:
AzureBlues said:
Day2Dream said:

I'm more curious on how Archer lost to Berserker in the original F/S Night then Shirou/Saber beating him. lol

Well, something had to be done to prevent the first route from becoming UBW.


It's not to prevent occurring the UBW route. Besides, in UBW, Archer didn't fight head on but on a very long range shot yet in Fate, he fought Berserker head on. That concludes Archer has no match against Berserker. Archer just fought him head on just to buy time for Shirou and the rest. Also, it was explained on Shirou and Saber vs Berserker episode about Caliburn that the Caliburn is a "1 hit KO" sword.
Actually Caliburn isnt a 1-hit KO sword.If Archer hadnt killed Berserker 6 times(VN) they would be dead.
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Mar 31, 2014 10:39 AM

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i can explain it in 2 ways

1.main charcters never die

2.till they enterd the reality marble, gilgamese was going easy on him(i know it isnt an excuse but its the truth)

and in the marble (i assume) emiya and his blades becamed stronger and till gilgamese started takeing it siriesly, emiya already was at his full powers (marble/excaliber)

so i think humans CAN kill servents
i got no gif for my signature..... imagine some cool swords clashing and light and fighting everywhere!
 
Jun 20, 2017 4:57 PM
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Gilgamesh could just have destroyed the space shirou created the same way he did while fighting Rider. He should be able to destroy space that are created by others, using his own noble phantasm right?
One of the first infos told of the Ea is that she destroys the alternative reality and shit. So the UBW wouldnt work at all and yet the anime let Shirou win whit that...
Modified by simoxxon, Jun 20, 2017 5:10 PM
 
Aug 8, 2017 10:36 AM
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His official title is the "king of jobbers" for a reason
also look to goku and his holding back ability for reference
 
Mar 11, 12:36 AM
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Yeah, you are right. I've seen shirou fanboys just whine about "Oh UBW is better than GOB" and "Oooh he can trace weapons faster". But we know that GOB has weapons close to the original and UBW has degraded weapons. UBW also uses more mana, so its hard to keep it going. Also, the reality marble dosen't matter. Ea can wipe it out as we saw with Iskandar. Also, the part about gil not acknowledging shirou is really dumb plot armor because he is known to acknowledge people who put in effort and he also didn't acknowledge Enkidu at the start, but he ended up acknowledging him later in that fight. The writers just wanted to make their crappy MC win and had to come up with an excuse. Shirou vs angelica proved what would happen if shirou went up against a serious gil. And even in that fight, angelica didn't have gils full power.
 
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