Puella Magi Madoka Magica
Lekkain said: I know that is not the issue you have with her; I just expanded upon why she became cold and distant. As for her being a hypocrite, when was the line about having to give up on Sayaka delivered? Before or after she turned into a magical girl? I'm honestly asking because I can't remember. If it was said after, then, as I mentioned, it makes sense, since to Homura Magical girl = you'll become a witch, unless mercy killed; especially true in Sayaka's case. If, however, it was said before, then yup, 'logic my ass', she is a bit of a hypocrite to think she can change one girl's destiny and not the other's. Although, why would she be selfish? She went through timeline after timeline to try save who she cared for, without (almost) ever giving up. Pretty sure she said it after Sayaka turned into a magical girl. But in the past timelines shown, we've seen Homura continue to try and save Madoka until Madoka dies - even when she's already become a magical girl. We don't see Homura immediately turn back the clock the moment Madoka makes a contract. She may have, but I honestly think in all those timelines, she kept trying until the last moment before Madoka lost to despair. Can't be proven, of course. Why is Homura selfish? Copy and pasted from my previous post: Miki and Kyoko's wish for example are directly related to the target person's happiness (the guy's hand to heal, and Kyoko's father to have people who believe in his teachings). What's Homura's wish? "I wish to redo my meeting with Madoka." Like what??? How does that make sense? I bet there are at least 10 more straightforward wishes she could've made if she truly cared about Madoka's fate. Rather, this wish shows that Homura cares more about herself and her role in Madoka's life, than Madoka's happiness. |
  but you can become stronger... ...でもつよくなれるよ |
Lekkain said: True, Madoka was already a magical girl in some of the timelines. However, back then, Homura didn't know any better; even after finding out that Kyubey had tricked them, she most likely thought for a period of time that magical girls could be perhaps saved from their fate. Otherwise, as you hinted, she would have reverted time as soon as Madoka made the contract. It's only after many failures that she would've given up on the whole idea of magical girls being saved. Madoka herself would be a bit of an exception for some time, since she was special to Homura; until she would realize the only solution would be to prevent Madoka from fighting in the first place. Which is why, again, I just cannot see her as selfish; her wish was indirectly aimed at protecting Madoka; she even decided to fight by herself at one point, which is when her personality started changing towards the more cynical side. I doubt she intended initially to relive the same month over and over. She thought she could just go back in time once and fix everything; not only for Madoka's sake, but for that of everyone else (initially). Also, unlike Kyoko and Sayaka, she never really took the time to think carefully about her wish. It was thought on the spur of the moment, just after Madoka had died. Considering she barely took any time at all to think about, it was a pretty intelligent wish, giving herself the potential to change what had happened. I personally would disagree and I think that even in the current timeline, if Madoka had not made such an op wish, Homura would have played out Madoka's magical girl era till the end before restarting. But at this point I think it gets much more speculative (the reasons I wanna give for my opinion) so I'll send you a PM when I get the time. The conversation may wind up in a very different place haha. Also, I'll try and look for the episode where Kyoko made her wish. But Sayaka def did not put a lot of time into her wish. The boy flipped and she was shocked and immediately made the wish to alleviate his pain. I don't think she had really been considering it seriously before but I'll try and rewatch. |
but you can become stronger... ...でもつよくなれるよ |
| Ohhhh no, nope.....HOMURA DID NOTHING WRONG!!!!!!! |
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| Homura was the only damn reason i watched Madoka cus friend told me it was not all that special. |
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iunne said: ssjokg said: Even if Homura doesnt care for them as you say, although her reactions when they die say otherwise,she at least uses LOGIC. Sorry, I know I'm late af to the party but I just had an honest question for Homura fans. She uses logic, you say? But Homura's a complete hypocrite, is she not? When Kyoko and Madoka are worrying over Sayaka, Homura brushes it off and says: Give up, you can't change her fate. But Homura, what are you doing? Aren't you trying to change Madoka's fate? In fact, didn't you make your wish on the premise that fate could be changed? Logic my ass. Sorry, I know I'm even later to the party, but I need to get this off my chest. Is she a bitch? Somewhat. A hypocrite? Perhaps. But, no logic?! All her actions revolve around her being logical! (except for those rare moments when she breaks down). Her main objective was 1: save Madoka. Bonus goal: save the others, only if possible. It's evident this bonus objective became less important the more timelines she reset, but not entirely forgotten. The only way to save someone at that point was to prevent them from turning into magical girls in the first place. Sayaka, despite Akemi's warnings, had already formed the contract, thus was impossible to save. When you go through the same shit over and over again, you know that what is bound to happen when a character makes the same decision as in the previous timeline. She tried to prevent Sayaka from making the deal. She failed = Sayaka is doomed, like in the previous timelines. She tried to do the same for Madoka, which was her true goal all along, and her failing every time = it's rewind time! That way she stayed true to her logic. |
| Anime wasnt saved. |
| |
Luananee said: Sorry, I know I'm even later to the party, but I need to get this off my chest. Is she a bitch? Somewhat. A hypocrite? Perhaps. But, no logic?! All her actions revolve around her being logical! (except for those rare moments when she breaks down). Her main objective was 1: save Madoka. Bonus goal: save the others, only if possible. It's evident this bonus objective became less important the more timelines she reset, but not entirely forgotten. The only way to save someone at that point was to prevent them from turning into magical girls in the first place. Sayaka, despite Akemi's warnings, had already formed the contract, thus was impossible to save. When you go through the same shit over and over again, you know that what is bound to happen when a character makes the same decision as in the previous timeline. She tried to prevent Sayaka from making the deal. She failed = Sayaka is doomed, like in the previous timelines. She tried to do the same for Madoka, which was her true goal all along, and her failing every time = it's rewind time! That way she stayed true to her logic. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Akemi ever telling Sayaka not to make a contract - in the current timeline or in previous timelines. In the timeline we're shown, I only remember seeing Akemi make a comment to Madoka about not changing the status quo/throwing away the things she has now. Sayaka makes a contract every time, Madoka makes a contract every time. Is there something that calls for a difference in expectations within Homura? Unfortunately we aren't given more details about previous timelines, but we know a few things:
There is a goal shift between these two points, at least verbally. In episode 10, Homura says this to Kyubey: "I want to relive meeting Kaname-san for the first time again--not as someone she protects, but as someone who can protect her instead!" I think it's very important to point out that the main subject of the wish is not about Madoka, but actually about Homura. Logic is about rational actions that will lead to the desired result. Homura's unsaid true objective: to be Madoka's protector. There is a subtle difference between this and "to protect Madoka." If Homura's true goal was to protect Madoka, her wish was completely illogical and misguided.
I'm calling out Homura because she acts like she has always been putting Madoka first, but in reality it's always been about herself. Movie 3 only reinforces this too. Basically, her claimed goal does not match her actions. |
iunneOct 10, 2019 6:01 AM
but you can become stronger... ...でもつよくなれるよ |
iunne said: Luananee said: Sorry, I know I'm even later to the party, but I need to get this off my chest. Is she a bitch? Somewhat. A hypocrite? Perhaps. But, no logic?! All her actions revolve around her being logical! (except for those rare moments when she breaks down). Her main objective was 1: save Madoka. Bonus goal: save the others, only if possible. It's evident this bonus objective became less important the more timelines she reset, but not entirely forgotten. The only way to save someone at that point was to prevent them from turning into magical girls in the first place. Sayaka, despite Akemi's warnings, had already formed the contract, thus was impossible to save. When you go through the same shit over and over again, you know that what is bound to happen when a character makes the same decision as in the previous timeline. She tried to prevent Sayaka from making the deal. She failed = Sayaka is doomed, like in the previous timelines. She tried to do the same for Madoka, which was her true goal all along, and her failing every time = it's rewind time! That way she stayed true to her logic. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Akemi ever telling Sayaka not to make a contract - in the current timeline or in previous timelines. In the timeline we're shown, I only remember seeing Akemi make a comment to Madoka about not changing the status quo/throwing away the things she has now. Sayaka makes a contract every time, Madoka makes a contract every time. Is there something that calls for a difference in expectations within Homura? Unfortunately we aren't given more details about previous timelines, but we know a few things:
There is a goal shift between these two points, at least verbally. In episode 10, Homura says this to Kyubey: "I want to relive meeting Kaname-san for the first time again--not as someone she protects, but as someone who can protect her instead!" I think it's very important to point out that the main subject of the wish is not about Madoka, but actually about Homura. Logic is about rational actions that will lead to the desired result. Homura's unsaid true objective: to be Madoka's protector. There is a subtle difference between this and "to protect Madoka." If Homura's true goal was to protect Madoka, her wish was completely illogical and misguided.
I'm calling out Homura because she acts like she has always been putting Madoka first, but in reality it's always been about herself. Movie 3 only reinforces this too. Basically, her claimed goal does not match her actions. Oooohhh, so that's what you meant. Sorry, I misunderstood. I still think she acted logically for the most part. Just because there are other better solutions, doesn't mean yours isn't logical. By being a fundamental part of Madoka's life, by redoing their meeting, she could protect her and change her fate. All of their fates, if possible. Or so she thought. Your solution of having their roles switched is better. But that doesn't make Homura's wish illogical. Plus, cut her some slack, her best friend died in front of her eyes, how was she gonna think of a better wish in her state of mind?! That, and it's only thanks to Akemi that Madoka was able to make her uber wish, so, in a way, she was able to change Madoka's fate in the end. I watched this eons ago, but I'm pretty sure Akemi warned both Kaname and Miki not to make the deal with Kitty the Incubator. Her focus was Madoka, obviously, but she did also warn Sayaka...then chastise her later for having made the pact...then offer her a grief seed to buy her some time...or kill her if she didn't accept...all for Madoka's fate, ultimately. What I'm to get to is that she is somewhat selfish, and did those things mostly for herself, not just for Madoka (but perhaps she thought she was only doing them for Kaname, out of selflessness, not selfishness?); but the decisions she took, while desperate on occasion, were entirely logical. Yes, her selfishness was made more obvious in Rebellion, I agree with that. I just wish she had accepted her dying fate in the end, and be reunited with Madoka, not turned herself into the Devil! Never mind that, as entertaining as Rebellion was, it ruined the perfect ending of the Madoka Magica Tv series. I wish movie 3 didn't happen because of it! |
Luananee said: Plus, cut her some slack, her best friend died in front of her eyes, how was she gonna think of a better wish in her state of mind?! That, and it's only thanks to Akemi that Madoka was able to make her uber wish, so, in a way, she was able to change Madoka's fate in the end. Yes, the incubators are geniuses xD Having emotionally unstable preteens whose brains are nowhere near fully developed make wishes that defy universal law... tragedy could not be more guaranteed LOL Of the 5 girls shown, Kyoko, Sayaka, and Homura's wishes were probably not optimal at all. Mami's was obviously made on the spot, and Homura and Sayaka's wishes were also made in a rush during some emotional peak, even though they had a lot of time to think over it prior. Added edit: That being said, I categorize their wishes like this: 1) Basically/Purely selfless: Madoka, Kyoko and Miki, and 2) Basically/Purely selfish: Mami (I don't mean this negatively for Mami at all) and Homura Also, you've defined what "fate" Madoka wished to be saved from. Madoka still became a magical girl, so that wasn't the "fate" being referred to, I guess. So going off that, if Madoka's fate wasn't sealed despite making a contract, why was Sayaka's? Anyway, we can probably just agree to disagree regarding Homura's rationality. But I will say that I agree in that Movie 3 didn't really add anything super valuable to the series. Great visuals, though haha |
iunneOct 10, 2019 7:06 AM
but you can become stronger... ...でもつよくなれるよ |
iunne said: Luananee said: Plus, cut her some slack, her best friend died in front of her eyes, how was she gonna think of a better wish in her state of mind?! That, and it's only thanks to Akemi that Madoka was able to make her uber wish, so, in a way, she was able to change Madoka's fate in the end. Yes, the incubators are geniuses xD Having emotionally unstable preteens whose brains are nowhere near fully developed make wishes that defy universal law... tragedy could not be more guaranteed LOL Of the 5 girls shown, Kyoko, Sayaka, and Homura's wishes were probably not optimal at all. Mami's was obviously made on the spot, and Homura and Sayaka's wishes were also made in a rush during some emotional peak, even though they had a lot of time to think over it prior. Added edit: That being said, I categorize their wishes like this: 1) Basically/Purely selfless: Madoka, Kyoko and Miki, and 2) Basically/Purely selfish: Mami (I don't mean this negatively for Mami at all) and Homura Also, you've defined what "fate" Madoka wished to be saved from. Madoka still became a magical girl, so that wasn't the "fate" being referred to, I guess. So going off that, if Madoka's fate wasn't sealed despite making a contract, why was Sayaka's? Anyway, we can probably just agree to disagree regarding Homura's rationality. But I will say that I agree in that Movie 3 didn't really add anything super valuable to the series. Great visuals, though haha That's a categorization I can agree with, the wishes one I mean. By fate, I actually meant that of being turned into a witch, the first step being magical girl. Once Sayaka became a magical girl, she was doomed to become a witch (her fate was sealed), given that Homura saw it happen in pretty much every other timeline. Same goes for Madoka. Or, that's what should have happened hadn't Madoka made such an unpredictable wish that prevented everyone from becoming witches, herself and Miki included, stuffing up every magical girl's ultimate fate. I'm just sorry that as an alternative Sayaka had to disappear; truly the most tragic character in the series, never to find true happiness: either a witch, or a magical girl destined to disappear, all because she fought the hardest for what she believed in. Then Rebellion ruined that too. |
Luananee said: That's a categorization I can agree with, the wishes one I mean. By fate, I actually meant that of being turned into a witch, the first step being magical girl. Once Sayaka became a magical girl, she was doomed to become a witch (her fate was sealed), given that Homura saw it happen in pretty much every other timeline. Same goes for Madoka. Or, that's what should have happened hadn't Madoka made such an unpredictable wish that prevented everyone from becoming witches, herself and Miki included, stuffing up every magical girl's ultimate fate. I'm just sorry that as an alternative Sayaka had to disappear; truly the most tragic character in the series, never to find true happiness: either a witch, or a magical girl destined to disappear, all because she fought the hardest for what she believed in. Then Rebellion ruined that too. The only problem with that definition of fate is that actually it's easily avoidable if you cheese it haha. Basically do what Mami did that one timeline where she "prematurely" killed Kyoko by destroying her soul gem. So yeah... the "fate" that Madoka asks to be saved from and the "fate" that Homura tries to save Madoka from aren't clearly outlined enough for me. May be a huge part of the reason why I greatly prefer Sayaka/Kyoko/Mami over Madoka/Homura. |
but you can become stronger... ...でもつよくなれるよ |
iunne said: Luananee said: That's a categorization I can agree with, the wishes one I mean. By fate, I actually meant that of being turned into a witch, the first step being magical girl. Once Sayaka became a magical girl, she was doomed to become a witch (her fate was sealed), given that Homura saw it happen in pretty much every other timeline. Same goes for Madoka. Or, that's what should have happened hadn't Madoka made such an unpredictable wish that prevented everyone from becoming witches, herself and Miki included, stuffing up every magical girl's ultimate fate. I'm just sorry that as an alternative Sayaka had to disappear; truly the most tragic character in the series, never to find true happiness: either a witch, or a magical girl destined to disappear, all because she fought the hardest for what she believed in. Then Rebellion ruined that too. The only problem with that definition of fate is that actually it's easily avoidable if you cheese it haha. Basically do what Mami did that one timeline where she "prematurely" killed Kyoko by destroying her soul gem. So yeah... the "fate" that Madoka asks to be saved from and the "fate" that Homura tries to save Madoka from aren't clearly outlined enough for me. May be a huge part of the reason why I greatly prefer Sayaka/Kyoko/Mami over Madoka/Homura. So good to see someone else who prefers the 'supporting girls', as I like to call them, rather than dull ordinary Madoka (though I guess she was done like that on purpose), or the one almost everyone seems to adore, Homura. Nothing against Ms Edginess, but I greatly prefer the Sayaka/Kyoko team, I'm pairing them because I feel they complete each other perfectly, them dying together had me in tears😢, and Tomoe Mami most of all, who above everyone else is my favourite anime character of all time! One of the few good things Rebellion did was give her more screentime and that awesome fight where she totally owned Homura! |
iunne said: Luananee said: That's a categorization I can agree with, the wishes one I mean. By fate, I actually meant that of being turned into a witch, the first step being magical girl. Once Sayaka became a magical girl, she was doomed to become a witch (her fate was sealed), given that Homura saw it happen in pretty much every other timeline. Same goes for Madoka. Or, that's what should have happened hadn't Madoka made such an unpredictable wish that prevented everyone from becoming witches, herself and Miki included, stuffing up every magical girl's ultimate fate. I'm just sorry that as an alternative Sayaka had to disappear; truly the most tragic character in the series, never to find true happiness: either a witch, or a magical girl destined to disappear, all because she fought the hardest for what she believed in. Then Rebellion ruined that too. The only problem with that definition of fate is that actually it's easily avoidable if you cheese it haha. Basically do what Mami did that one timeline where she "prematurely" killed Kyoko by destroying her soul gem. So yeah... the "fate" that Madoka asks to be saved from and the "fate" that Homura tries to save Madoka from aren't clearly outlined enough for me. May be a huge part of the reason why I greatly prefer Sayaka/Kyoko/Mami over Madoka/Homura. I was going to send you a PM, but apparently I have to be a MAL member for minimum 3 days in order to do so. How does that even make sense😅? I've written the message and will send it as soon as I'm authorised. Short version of it? I've accepted your friend request. Thank you for it. |
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