Are you a feminist?

TheHandOfShame said:

Ok, let's pretend this is actually true, and these people have hijacked feminism and pushed aside the real feminists. It still doesn't change the fact that they constitute the overwhelming majority of people who call themselves feminists. If feminism was originally about the simple pursuit of equality, only a handful of people still practise it like that.

Post-Josh said:
These are some reasonably popular feminist blogs. Should you choose to glance over them, you will find that none of the writers (and thus few of the readers) are anti-men in any sense.

Sora_N said:
It is true. The so-called feminists you keep talking about just stand out more then us “real feminists” because they are more vocal and spreading their ignorance around. This is called stereotyping because of the minority (the so-called feminists) are making people think that “real feminists” are the same as the so-called man-hating, anti-white, anti-west (whatever) fake feminists are.

Sora_N said:
Yep, you are just as ignorant as the so-called feminists you have talked to and you are just helping them by spreading their ignorance and stupidity. Good to know that you are just their spokesperson now. Have fun spreading misinformation (I hope that you never marry because I feel sorry for any woman who has to deal with you).

TheHandOfShame said:

"Ah, he got me. I can't think of anything to say in response, so I guess I'd better start speculating about his personal life and hopefully divert the thread away from the topic. If that doesn't work, I'll just tell him he has a small penis. That usually works."

Sora_N said:
I don't give the shit what size your penis is (as I said I am a LESBIAN why would you even post something that stupid? When you know I am?) You seem to be anti-female and you just can't get it threw your head that those women you have talked to are FAKE feminists and don't speek for the real feminists. You just keep saying the same shit and I am tired and I wanted to go to bed. No, you did not win by your quote "Ah, he got me" shit.

JennyEsquire said:
I'll ask you this though: Do you believe that women in western society are actually being oppressed.

sabconth said:
You say that getting upset about women being sexualized on tv isn't that big of a deal, and it probably wouldn't be, if men were sexualized to the same extent. But they're not.

In so many area's of the media women are reduced to objects, usually sex objects, and despite the damaging effect this can have on young girls or on women's status in society at large, people still dismiss it as effective advertising.

Also, as much as I may not agree or even like Anita Sarkeesian, to call her that word so flippantly demonstrates just how low you consider women to be.

That word has the same amount of power behind it as the 'n' word does for black people. It isn't just a name to call someone, it is the very real attempt to dehumanize and degrade the person it is being said to.

AnnoKano said:


This thread is now more than ten pages long, and within it there numerous individuals who describe themselves as feminists.

Name one which fits your description of the entire feminist movement.

TheHandOfShame said:
They're not because men and women aren't the same, and men do not perceive women the same way women perceive men.

TheHandOfShame said:
This "objectification" (what does that even mean, seriously) cannot occur without the participation and support of women. The media is not some kind of being that snatches women in the middle of the night and forces them in front of a camera.

TheHandOfShame said:
One woman is a cunt, therefore they all are?

TheHandOfShame said:
It is not equivalent to nigger (it always makes me laugh when people are too scared to even type that word), it's more of a generic swear word/insult. You're grasping at straws.

JennyEsquire said:
I also hate crusty old white who want to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies,

JennyEsquire said:
... but this was in the US specifically right? Pro-choice people are first and foremost social liberals and some of those might be feminists. Even conservatives thought that that statement on rape was a stupid one to make.

JennyEsquire said:
So do you suggest that we stop objectifying women in media (advertisement mostly) or should we be objectifying men more often? If objectifying men would help sell products as well as doing the same to women would, then I doubt we'd have this ''problem''. I'd like you to elaborate on these supposed detrimental effects.

JennyEsquire said:
This actually brings to mind the type of feminists who also think the porn industry is objectifying women (which is sort of the point of porn but oh well) and therefore want to change the way it's made and impose more regulations. I think it's worth bringing up, because I hate these people.

JennyEsquire said:
Black people have had it much harder than women have in America, and that's a fact. To try and equate saying 'nigger' with calling someone a cunt is grossly offensive.

JennyEsquire said:
If I were you I would apologize

sabconth said:
Some men even view women as targets for rape and harassment, something men themselves will very, very rarely have to experience.

Objectification means to present or regard something as an object.

Sexual objectification is when someone is treated as nothing more than a tool or instrument for someone else's personal gratification. This is currently what is been done so often to women and young girls in our media.

I never said it was equivelent to the 'n' word, only that it carries the same amount of power behind it to offend women as the 'n' word does to black people.

In the UK, calling someone a cunt is becoming less and less taboo, in the US however it is viewed as one of the most reprehensible words you can call someone, so perhaps your confusion lies in how it is perceived between these two countries.

Also, no, this phenomenon sadly isn't confined to the US. Women are victim blamed and have their reproductive rights restricted all the time in every corner of the globe.

Rarely are guys taught to take into account how a woman might feel or react to being treated like something that exists solely for their amusement. This is what makes rapists think they own a woman's body. This is what makes domestic abuse such a pervasive issue, because the man is taught that the woman is his property, and that her wants and needs should never even be taken into consideration.

JennyEsquire said:
Well first off, the main reason behind the rape epidemic in Europe is because of mass immigration and the belief that certain cultures can live side by side, even though they mix like oil and water. I think this is interesting since feminists are often proponents of multiculturalism and mass-immigration, where we import a very distorted view on women and their role in society, and an honour-based culture that just doesn't belong. So the problem is much bigger in Europe, and the feminists don't seem to care for the actual reason why it's so high.

JennyEsquire said:
I thought we were going to focus on industrialized countries first?

JennyEsquire said:
The part about stigmatizing women who choose to have abortion/premarital sex is true though in many conservative societies. Liberals are against this as well though, not just feminists.

JennyEsquire said:
I think it's true that abortion would be legal in most countries if men could get pregnant.

JennyEsquire said:
Well first off, the main reason behind the rape epidemic in Europe is because of mass immigration and the belief that certain cultures can live side by side, even though they mix like oil and water.

JennyEsquire said:
About domestic abuse, men are also many times the victims, and that there is an epidemic going on is not really true. I think many people find it offensive since most men would never dream of hitting their wives.

JennyEsquire said:
You're obviously implying that it's the same thing,

sabconth said:
That word has the same amount of power behind it as the 'n' word does for black people.

JennyEsquire said:
... then what do you exactly mean by ''carries the same power behind it''?

JennyEsquire said:
I don't make things complicated, if someone's acting like a cunt I might just call them a cunt.

sabconth said:
The recent 'slutwalk' protests that took place all over the world were in direct response to allegations that women should be held responsible after they've been raped if they wore revealing clothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

That sounds just ever so slightly narrow minded and even a little bigoted.

Wouldn't it make more sense to want to change the belief or patriarchal mindset that so many less developed countries have than to simply state it's impossible to live side by side one and other?

sabconth said:
That sounds just ever so slightly narrow minded and even a little bigoted.

Wouldn't it make more sense to want to change the belief or patriarchal mindset that so many less developed countries have than to simply state it's impossible to live side by side one and other?

sabconth said:
I don't even have to search far to find figures and facts about the extent of domestic violence against women. Here's just a few;

"Every minute police in the UK receive a domestic assistance call – yet only 35% of domestic violence incidents are reported to the police (Stanko, 2000 & Home Office, 2002)"
http://refuge.org.uk/get-help-now/what-is-domestic-violence/domestic-violence-the-facts/

"The U.S. Department of Justice estimates that 95 percent of the assaults on partners or spouses is committed by men against women."
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2006/who-are-the-victims-of-domestic-violence/

"Everyday in the US, more than three women are murdered by their husbands or boyfriends."
http://domesticviolencestatistics.org/domestic-violence-statistics/

sabconth said:
Certain words hit harder for certain people. Or, to put it another way, some words have a power to hurt.

For example;

You can call me the 'n' word and it won't even rustle my jimmies in the slightest.

But, call someone who happens to be black the same thing and prepare yourself for a beatdown.

So how about the word cunt? Is that a powerful word?

According to wikipedia, apparently so;
It is considered, "the most heavily tabooed word of all English words",[10][11] "Scholar Germaine Greer has said that "it is one of the few remaining words in the English language with a genuine power to shock."[2]

And how bad is it when said to women?
"In referring to a woman, cunt is an abusive term usually considered the most offensive word in that context and even more forceful than bitch.[43]"

JennyEsquire said:
I don't make things complicated, if someone's acting like a cunt I might just call them a cunt.

sabconth said:
I actually like the word cunt and wish it didn't have the severe wounding capacity that it currently carries. Unlike the 'n' word, I definitely think some people fit the definition of being a 'cunt' quite well.

But using it as a slur word towards women as a whole at this moment in time? Nah. It's simply too powerful.

TheHandOfShame said:
They seem to experience plenty of it in prison, though as far as most people are concerned it's funny and they deserve it.

TheHandOfShame said:
This is a matter of somebody thinking certain thoughts in response to witnessing certain things.

TheHandOfShame said:
There is no "objectification" occuring in an objective sense.

TheHandOfShame said:
By the way, feminists are actually responsible for this in the first place.

TheHandOfShame said:
I guess feminists thought that no matter how sexually "liberated" society gets, they'll still get to have everything their way. They'll wear whatever they want, and act however they want, and nobody will be allowed to objectify or oggle at them, unless they want them to.

TheHandOfShame said:
It's a much more generic word than that.

TheHandOfShame said:
Abortion and birth control are the norm in first world nations, but I have never heard of a man being able to abort his legal responsibilities towards a child.

TheHandOfShame said:
This is even't hyperbole, you're just plain making things up. You might as well claim women are forced to cover their hair.

TheHandOfShame said:
But that's not what was said,

TheHandOfShame said:
and if a man went out in expensive clothes and flashed money everywhere, people would laugh at him and call him an idiot if he got mugged. Not saying that's what should be done if a woman is raped, but nobody has ever explained to me why there's this gender-based double standard at work.

TheHandOfShame said:
It's dubious whether clothing has any effect on a woman's probability of
being raped,

TheHandOfShame said:
... but the idea is that women should take responsibility for their personal safety.

JennyEsquire said:

So we both agree that a black person would be much more offended if he/she was called a nigger than if a woman was called a cunt? I think it's obvious, and I know that I wouldn't be very offended if someone called me a cunt.

JennyEsquire said:
I am of the opinion that you should be able to joke about most things. I don't mind jokes about rape or the holocaust, though it matters who you're with at the time.

JennyEsquire said:
If it's a double standard it's because women run a higher risk of being raped. I think that anyone who argues that women who wear revealing clothing ''deserve'' to be raped are fucking morons.

JennyEsquire said:
I think that's the public's opinion too, that nigger is a much worse word than cunt.

JennyEsquire said:


I think that any black woman would rather called a cunt than a nigger. I think that's the public's opinion too, that nigger is a much worse word than cunt.

TheHandOfShame said:
Feminists don't complain about Muslim immigrants raping (and often gangraping) women, because they only care about rape when it allows them to attack white men (besides, Muslims are dangerous and going after them would be "racism"). Why don't feminists have a problem with false rape accusations (which discredit real victims), and why do they seek to expand the definition of rape to cover things like regretting a one night stand? Because the more rape accusations and convictions there are (legitimate or not, doesn't matter), the more white men can be attacked (even if they're statistically guilty of the least amount of rapes, doesn't matter), and the more justification feminists have for going even further with their anti-white male campaign.

sabconth said:
You know which group doesn't tolerate rape jokes no matter who the victim is?

So when the top shelf of magazine stands is filled with lads mags and nude depictions of women, that doesn't count as objectification?

So wanting to be as free and promiscuous as men means they have to suffer for it?

Are men really so irresponsible that they cannot even take the blame for their own actions?

I know right? The nerve of those siilly feminists, when will they learn that they must live to the whims of society and men's expectations. Tsk, tsk.

Yet it isn't women that made this a law, it was men. You know why? Because if every man could so easily run from his responsibility as a parent, many single mothers would be left up the creek with no way to support their child.

A layer once said it best, "For men, the time to think about having a child is before you take your pants off."

Absolutely, never, ever has a man ever considered a woman his property. And every single man alive has always taking into consideration the emotions and well being of the women they've met. Even rapists and murderers.

Because whether the person flaunting money is male or female, everybody agree's they were stupid for flashing their cash and getting mugged in the process.

But only women must be careful of what they wear, men are exempt.

That's the double standard.

How about rapists taking responsibility for wanting to rape women in the first place?

Post-Josh said:
Of course they do, they care about rape from any person of any race immensely. Are white women like to be more cautious when condemning man of racial minorities? Yes, and they should be, since they need to consider how their racial privilege plays into their perspective.

You've yet to convince me that your whole anti-white male conspiracy theory is anything other than laughable at best.

Extra note: After all of your complaining about word choice, you're grossly misusing "feminist". Assuming that all feminists are women (an incorrect assumption you make regularly), either you're implying that only white women can be feminists...

...or Muslim women can be feminists too, yet Muslim women don't care about rape by Muslim men and are "out to get" white men instead. You're wrong either way, so take your pick.

TheHandOfShame said:
And yet they work to increase the number of rapes.

TheHandOfShame said:
Objectification comes from within, not without. You posted that image as if I had said something completely obvious, but you clearly don't get it.

TheHandOfShame said:
Do you really think it's reasonable to create an utterly superficial culture of sexual promiscuity and hedonism, and still expect men and women to treat each other with the utmost respect and gravity?

TheHandOfShame said:
The notion that the vast majority of men are free to be as promiscuous as they want to was and is a myth, and where did you even get the idea that promiscuity is a good thing that people should be doing?

TheHandOfShame said:
The world is full of men who don't respect women, and you better get used to it because no amount of social engineering is going to get rid of them. You may as well try to
convince bears to stop mauling people.

TheHandOfShame said:
How delusional do you have to be to think that you can somehow control the thoughts and actions of everyone around you? Even under the best possible circumstances, there will inevitably be men who behave poorly towards women, and creating an environment that encourages that kind of behavior is pretty far from best possible circumstances.

TheHandOfShame said:
We have birth control now, and women are free to abort their children on a whim.

TheHandOfShame said:
So what's the purpose this law, and why are feminists not trying to change it?

TheHandOfShame said:
And for women there presumably is no time to think, because somebody else will always take responsibility.

TheHandOfShame said:
You claimed men are "rarely" taught to care about what women feel or think, but normally taught to consider women their property. This is complete bullshit.

TheHandOfShame said:
Most men are heterosexual, and much bigger and stronger than women, therefore most rapes are male-on-female. Nature does not have double standards, it just is what it is.

TheHandOfShame said:
How about making seagulls take responsibility for shitting all over the place?

TheHandOfShame said:
Do you really think rapists care that what they're doing is immoral and illegal, and that women should trust them to behave themselves?

TheHandOfShame said:
If so, you are a rape supporter, because encouraging that kind of mindset makes women more vulnerable to rape.

TheHandOfShame said:
Blacks and Muslims just can't help but rape every white woman they see, because they don't have enough privilege points to level up their morality.

sabconth said:

You've honestly never heard of the slut/stud double standard that goes on?

A guy sleeps with lots of girls; he's a hero, a player, a normal, healthy male.

A girl sleeps with lots of guys; she's a slut, a whore, despised by everyone.

Post-Josh said:
You avoided responding to anything I said, as per usual.

First off, stop trying to oversimplify privilege. Either go learn something about it, or don't and keep making idiotic statements.

If by "feminists" you mean "white female feminists" then say so, otherwise I have no choice but to assume you're talking about all of them.

@"mangina": Ah, there is it. Was waiting for you to officially declare yourself a member of the "we're afraid of losing our privilege and manhood" camp. I bet you'd sooner die than be "pussy-whipped".

sabconth said:
But to actually think feminists are working to increase the number of rapes is insane.

Society teaches women and girls that what they look like is paramount. The pressure to conform to these increasingly impossible standards severely damages their self esteem and makes their need to be accepted for their looks even stronger.

People who aren't aware of this factor and see images of half naked women everywhere might wrongly assume that the objectification of women is something they themselves wanted all along.

No. But I do believe it's reasonable to expect some equilibrium between the objectification of the sexes rather than accept that only women should bear that burden on their own.

You've honestly never heard of the slut/stud double standard that goes on?

A guy sleeps with lots of girls; he's a hero, a player, a normal, healthy male.

A girl sleeps with lots of guys; she's a slut, a whore, despised by everyone.

Again you hold men to such low standards it's almost comical.

Yes, there will always be people who do not respect other people. But to suggest that men will never be able to learn to respect women is downright ignorant.

I'm not advocating the control of everyone's thoughts and actions, only the, according to you, delusional notion that women should be respected as people.

You say that like it's a bad thing?

Because currently men are disproportionately likely to be the ones who choose to abandon their own children and responsibilities as a father. If every man who got a woman pregnant could easily ignore the life he helped create, the strain on society and especially single mothers would be far worse than it is now.

Yes I know women have more power when it comes to deciding whether to keep the child or not, but that's because they have to actually carry it within their own bodies. If men were the ones who had to carry a baby, I'm sure they wouldn't be constrained by the wishes of the mother either.

Unless the woman decides to give the child up for adoption or abort, then she will be the one with the responsibility.

I never said it was normal, only that in domestic abuse cases, a lot of the men were taught and do actually think this way.

Rape isn't natural though. I'm not saying it'll ever be completely wiped out, it won't, but it's worth the effort to see if we as a society, as a species, can do anything to stem the cause's or symptoms that make rape as prevalent as it is.

Seagulls shit, it's natural and normal.

Rape isn't, neither is murder, the victim shouldn't be the one who has to do the expalining or take responsibility, it should be the criminal.

Most rapists, as you have admitted, are men.

I would hope that men would care what they are doing is immoral and illegal and that women could trust them to behave themselves.

Wanting less men to view women as objects and thus acceptable targets for their immoral acts makes me a supporter of rape?

Yet someone like you, who throws up their arms and seems to be resigned to the idea that men rape and nothing can be done about it, except apparently for women taking more responsibility for how they conduct themselves, that's supposed to be the attitude of someone who is against rape?

Pocketasces said:
Well, if a key can open many locks it is considered a master key... But who wants a lock that can be opened by many different keys?

The only purpose of the key is to open locks... if your key can open all of the locks, of course you will earn respect of other keyholders.

If you have a lock that is loose and easy to open, of course we will open it.. but we will not respect the person who bears such a lock

TheHandOfShame said:
They don't want women taking responsibility for their personal safety. They encourage behavior that increases the risk of rape. They support mass immigration from third world countries where women are little more than walking sex toys. How does this not constitute a deliberate effort to increase the number of rapes?

TheHandOfShame said:
For women, it is paramount for the purpose of finding a mate. As for those "increasingly impossible standards," they come from other women.

TheHandOfShame said:
They must all be forced to do it at gun point, and whenever they go out dressed like streetwalkers it's because they're wearing explosive collars. The slutwalks were probably orchestrated by the patriarchy as well.

TheHandOfShame said:
What's to stop women from objectifying men? It's all in their heads, they can think whatever they want to. I'm also fascinated by your approach to this issue: instead of suggesting that we should work towards a culture of mutual respect, you want women to step up their objectification so that men and women disrespect each other in equal measure.

TheHandOfShame said:
What does this have to do with what I said? Anyway, the flip side of that double standard is that inexperienced men are pathetic losers while inexperienced women are virtuous. And who is it that keeps rewarding and enabling promiscuous men? That would be women. They find players attractive and exciting.

TheHandOfShame said:
The notion that the vast majority of men are free to be as promiscuous as they want to was and is a myth,

TheHandOfShame said:
... and where did you even get the idea that promiscuity is a good thing that people should be doing?

TheHandOfShame said:
Some men will never learn. No matter what you do, there will always be some men who are like that. There is not a damn thing you can do about this without some fantastical technology that allows complete control over human behavior.

TheHandOfShame said:
It is a delusional notion to think that you can socially engineer every last man to respect women.

TheHandOfShame said:
Of course not, because what could be bad about aborting a pregnancy on a whim. It's no big deal. Just think of it as retroactive birth control.

TheHandOfShame said:
This is what feminists actually believe.

TheHandOfShame said:
If a woman can abort her child, then it must be made possible for men to abort their financial responsibilities towards the child. That's equality (you know, that thing you claim you're in favor of).

TheHandOfShame said:
In the old days, people got married before they had children. But feminists thought this arrangement was oppressive or whatever, and now they're wondering why the random guy who impregnated them after a drunken one night stand is not eager to stick around and be a dad.

TheHandOfShame said:
Geez, why are men so irresponsible?

TheHandOfShame said:
While receiving child support from the father, and/or welfare from the government.

TheHandOfShame said:
The entire paragraph was suggesting that by default men are raised as rapists and thugs who can't perceive women as people.

sabconth said:
Rarely are guys taught to take into account how a woman might feel or react to being treated like something that exists solely for their amusement.

sabconth said:
This is what makes rapists think they own a woman's body. This is what makes domestic abuse such a pervasive issue, because the man is taught that the woman is his property, and that her wants and needs should never even be taken into consideration.

TheHandOfShame said:
Rape is just as natural as a female mantis eating the male's head during mating. Natural isn't synonymous with good. By your logic homosexuality could be argued to be unnatural.

TheHandOfShame said:
A rapist isn't going to cease raping because you tell him it's wrong.

TheHandOfShame said:
Yeah, women should definitely trust rapists not to rape them. They should also trust burglars not to steal their television. Sound logic right there. Nothing could go wrong with it.

TheHandOfShame said:
Putting women's safety in the hands of their would-be rapists makes you a supporter of rape.

TheHandOfShame said:
Yes, because I acknowledge the fact that there will always be rapists no matter what,

TheHandOfShame said:
...and that women should therefore take appropriate precautions to protect themselves. This actually works, whereas your philosophy does the exact opposite.

sabconth said:
Also, as I said before, most victims of rape are attacked by someone they know. So no matter the precautions they take it still wouldn't have mattered and the only person to blame in the attacker.

The standards are not dictated by other women either, they are set down by society and the media.

You and I have no idea of the types of pressure women face to be beautiful or sexually desirable by their peers, the media, advertising or the workplace. Men can have receding hairlines or expanding waistlines and still be considered desirable partners, women don't get the same privilege.

The culture we currently live in is obsessed with sex, and while men are starting to be objectified more, the disrespect is still only aimed towards women.

I then used the stud/slut analogy to show that yes, men are free to be as promiscuous as they want. Certainly more so than women.

Sex is good. Having sex with lots of people can also be quite good, so long as you're using protection and it's what you want of course.

But currently, only men are allowed to be promiscuous without the fear of being called disparaging names.

If a woman doesn't want to have kids and decides to terminate her pregnancy it doesn't matter if she thinks it over for a week or one second, it's her choice.

I know it sounds really unfair that he should have to take responsibility for the life he created, and that he should be the one who should have to pay child support instead of the rest of society, but it's not like anybody put a gun to his head or put an explosive collar around his neck and forced him to not wear a condom is it?

If you think women should be held responsible sometimes in cases of rape, then there ain't no fucking way you can't hold men to the same standard when it comes to creating a baby.

More like they're making sure the guy who helped get them pregnant doesn't manage to escape from the life he inadvertently helped create. An unwanted pregnancy is a mistake that takes two people to make.

I don't know. You'd think they'd know enough not to have unprotected sex with a woman and end up getting her pregnant in the first place. Especially if they don't want to pay child support.

Yes, that's how it works. It turns out that having a baby makes working kinda hard. And raising a child takes up a whole ton of free time.

I stand by this statement and you may notice I am not saying all guys are raised to be rapists or thugs either, only that they aren't taught to be considerate to how a woman might feel to being treated like a slab of meat.

A man rapes a woman because he chooses to. Whether that's because he has a psychological problem, a need to feel power over someone or something else, it is always a choice.

Quit comparing people to animals, it's so lazy.

Again, women are most commonly raped by someone the know. So they are trusting that the men in their lives do not want to rape them.

I'm not putting their safety into the hands of rapists, I never even suggested such a demonstrable idea. I am simply stating that I think the men that decide it is okay to rape for no other reason than because they grew up with negative portrayls of women or their own sexuality could have made different choices if they had been presented with more positive and respectful messages towards women.

Please explain to me, oh sage one, what precautions can a woman take to stop her boyfriend or husband from raping her. What proper protections is she able to put in place to ensure she won't be abused by her older brother? What safety methods can she enact to make sure a cousin or an uncle or even her own father will be unable to have the chance to rape her?

Are there even situations where you actually believe that the man can be held 100% responsible for raping a woman?

JennyEsquire said:


I wonder what they think about fan service

fameONE said:
...or tentacle rape, lolicon, harem and the majority of the industry which caters exclusively to men. I didn't dream up something as disgusting as lolicon, but yet, as a man, I'm blamed for how women of the world are treated?

I... I don't understand this logic.

TheHandOfShame said:
That is beside the point

TheHandOfShame said:
Society and media consist of people.

TheHandOfShame said:
Men may be able to skate by with subpar looks, but only if they can compensate for them with their personality, achievements, or social status. This does mean that a woman who is born ugly will remain ugly, while a man is able to improve his lot. However, this is nobody's fault. We didn't decide human biology and psychology. If you want to blame someone, blame God.

TheHandOfShame said:
Most women don't actually have to do all that much to be attractive to men. They just think they do, and it's not because men told them so.

TheHandOfShame said:
Men don't read women's magazines.

TheHandOfShame said:
Men receive plenty of disrespect, it just doesn't necessarily take the same forms. The reason why our culture is obsessed with sex is because feminists (and liberals/leftists at large) made it that way. I guess you guys should have thought this through a bit more carefully, huh?

TheHandOfShame said:
If having sex was that easy, the Internet would not be filled with millions of bitter and angry foreveraloners, and PUAs selling books and seminars to them.

TheHandOfShame said:
And nowadays everyone is free to do pretty much whatever they want to, but of course feminists will complain if there is so much as one man in the universe who frowns at their antics.

TheHandOfShame said:
Studies have shown that the more sex partners a woman has, the more likely she is to divorce.

TheHandOfShame said:
Having many sex partners also makes a woman a less desireable long-term partner for men..

TheHandOfShame said:
On a societal level, promiscuity is destabilizing.

TheHandOfShame said:
But currently, only women are allowed to be virgins without the fear of being called disparaging names.

TheHandOfShame said:
Abortion is not something that should be done on a whim or used as a form of birth control. It's not a fucking manicure, it's the termination of a fetus.

TheHandOfShame said:
It's not like anybody forced the woman to get pregnant, but there she is at the abortion clinic regardless.

Just give it up, there's no way you can justify this obvious double standard.

TheHandOfShame said:
I have not actually said anywhere that women should be held responsible for rape.

TheHandOfShame said:
If you want to raise a child well, you should get married to someone who also wants a child.

TheHandOfShame said:
But nope, that's too oppressive and cis-normative etc. for our little princesses, so instead let's fuck anything that moves and then get really dismayed when a pregnancy occurs and the random douchebag who fucked you doesn't give a shit.

TheHandOfShame said:
Feminists are supposed to be in charge of everything and strong and independent and don't need no man and can abort all the stupid babies they like because they're the ones giving birth to them, but when an accidental pregnancy occurs they immediately delegate all responsibility to the man and demand him to foot the bill.

TheHandOfShame said:
The point was to illustrate the way feminists make disastrous choices and then blame it all on men. They could choose better, but they won't.

TheHandOfShame said:
There used to be this thing called a marriage where a man and woman would live together, pool their resources and raise the child together. I hear it fell out of favor when it was determined to be heteronormatively privileged oppression by the patriarcy, and was preventing women from realizing their true calling as the town bicycle.

TheHandOfShame said:
If the majority of men are raised to not take into account how women feel or what they want, and this is the mentality that makes men rape and beat women, then by default society is raising men to be rapists and thugs.

TheHandOfShame said:
So anything we choose to do is unnatural. Uh huh. I can see you've really thought this through.

TheHandOfShame said:
I was using an example to illustrate the fact that natural does not equal good. Something is not unnatural just because it's terrible.

TheHandOfShame said:
We are talking about stranger rape.

TheHandOfShame said:
You keep insisting that women shouldn't have to care about their safety because it's the rapists who must take responsibility (even though they won't), which is exactly what every other feminist has told me.

TheHandOfShame said:
Please explain what these scenarios have to do with stranger rape.

TheHandOfShame said:
Legally and morally speaking he is always 100 % responsible

TheHandOfShame said:
but

TheHandOfShame said:
that doesn't mean the woman didn't do something stupid to put herself in unnecessary danger.

Post-Josh said:
You don't think privilege exists, but you think manhood exists. That would be cool and all, if they didn't come as a package.

sabconth said:
Only because it doesn't help your argument.

Yes, that's right, society and media do consist of people, very good.

And since the people who control the media are made up of only the most powerful and influential, can you take a big swinging guess as to who that group might be made up of?

Or, perhaps, just maybe, we should blame something that actually exists and sets the standards for society... you know, like patriarchy.

And who gave them that idea? It wouldn't be the... media, would it?

Yet a lot of the information in these magazines is about articles telling them what men want, how they should look, how they should act, even how they should dress. Most of it is quite damaging.

We went through a long history of feeling guilty for having desires in the first place, and the numerous religions/conservative factions throughout the world who have gone out of their way to shame the human race for having these natural urges are finally starting to lose control.

It's only natural that people would finally relish their new-found sexual freedom. Yet women seem to be the only ones facing a backlash for wanting, having and actually enjoying their own bodies.

The reason why most guys can't get laid is because they simply cannot think of or treat women as people. (I wonder who taught them to think like that?)

These antics being the demand that women be respected as equals I presume?

So?

Yet the same isn't true when the roles are reversed... very peculiar.

It's almost as if men are taught to think less of women who have lots of sex, where could they have got these double standards from?

How?

If men could get pregnant there would be home abortion kits available at all good retailers, you can bet your ass they wouldn't have to think too long about it if they suddenly discovered they were expecting the unexpected.

But boy, it would be great if you had this same passion of injustice towards women being raped no matter the circumstances.

Guys don't just slip and fall into a woman and make her pregnant, they make the willful decision to have sex with someone without protection and thus enter the gamble of possibly creating a life.

If they don't want to go through with this dilemma they simply have to wear a condom or even choose to get a vasectomy if they wish. No one's stopping them from exercising those rights.

Only that women are responsible for their safety and that if they get raped it might have been because they did something stupid.

Maybe choosing to step foot out the door without a male escort is grounds enough to hold them responsible if they are attacked?

Actually if you want to raise a child well you should treat it with love and kindness. Plenty of married couples do a fantastic job of screwing up their kids while single mothers, even a few single fathers too, do a much better job of rearing a child on their own.

You're such an angry, frustrated guy. The issues you have with feminists and women in general seem to run deeper than meets the eye.

Yup they delegate all the responsibilities... except the upbringing, well-being and emotional health of the child, but other that that though, they foist everything onto the man.

The point is you think only a woman should bear the consequences of getting pregnant, yet decry the fact that men don't get a say in what happens once conception occurs.

If you think men should have a greater choice in what to do with the child they helped create, you will have to acknowledge that men must be held responsible too. You can't have half the control with none of the responsibility.

Again you express contempt for women who enjoy having sex outside a committed relationship, it's a pretty vile attitude to have.

And once more you also advocate marriage as this fairytale magic solution that can solve so many of the problems women face. I agree that it is better if two people raise a child together, but who says it has to be within the confines of a marriage, especially since so many of them fail?

Or that it has to be a man and woman? Why not two women, or two men?

No, only that society is fostering a culture and an attitude that can condition some men into becoming thugs or rapists.

No, but when we act without accordance of accepted standards of behavior of right and wrong then yes, that is unnatural.

If your defining natural as something produced and found in nature, then yes, technically nothing is ever really unnatural. Nor can you qualify anything found in nature to be good or bad.

However, that doesn't remove the fault of the person who chooses to commit the act of rape, or any other crime.

We were talking about rape. I was never restricting the discussion to stranger rape alone.

Doesn't matter if the rapist wants to take responsibility or not, he and he alone is the only one that should be held accountable for his actions.

If, as you said, the responsibility lies completely with the rapist, she cannot be blamed for falling victim to an attack, no matter the circumstances.

I'd also like to point out that you and I are speaking from enormous positions of power and privilege.

Immahnoob said:
Many feminists are hypocrites, that's all I have to say. And note that I did not say all, but Internet ones and fanatics.

You can seriously find feminazis on the Internet.

dankickyou said:

I can seriously find ACTUAL nazis on the internet

AnnoKano said:


Regarding women getting raped... why is it fair that women should be afraid to wear certain clothes because there is an increased risk they will be harassed or physically threatened for doing so? What kind of person thinks that this is acceptable?

AnnoKano said:
Still waiting on those extremist feminists I have heard so much about. But something tells me I'm not going to be introduced to one, because you anti-feminists will be damned if you're going to back up your position with anything more than anecdotes about those tumblr pages you've visited, as though these people are going to provide us with a balanced view of modern feminism.

TheHandofShame, you're just being flippant now- this stuff about Zionism and Dinosaurs becoming extinct is just pathetic.

Regarding women getting raped... why is it fair that women should be afraid to wear certain clothes because there is an increased risk they will be harassed or physically threatened for doing so? What kind of person thinks that this is acceptable?

You can argue that women are 'responsible' because they should be aware that wearing such clothing means it is more likely they will be harassed. This reasoning might be acceptable if we were talking about trying to climb a mountain during a snowstorm, but in order for someone to be raped one party needs to make a conscious decision to do so- the rapist. Sexy clothing does not send these men into an uncontrollable frenzy either, they make a conscious decision to rape- therefore they are entirely responsible for it.

I am sure many women are grateful for your concern about rape TheHandofShame, but they would probably prefer it if your solution was not for them to spend their lives living in fear and having to make clothing choices based on the attached risk of physical violence. Finally how are you unable to understand how this subjugates women?

TheHandOfShame said:
No, because it actually is beside the point. We are talking about stranger rape, and you're just trying to change the subject. The fact is that stranger rape still happens, even if it's not as common as rape by somebody the victim knows. It is profoundly fucked up to tell women to not care about their personal safety whether stranger rape is the most common form of rape or not.

TheHandOfShame said:
Don't try to act like you already knew that. You obviously were talking about them as if they were some kind of extraterrestrial entities.

TheHandOfShame said:
Women are heavily involved, and not everything in the media is run by only the most powerful and influential people in the world. Rupert Murdoch does not determine what some women's magazine writes. or what Oprah tells people.

TheHandOfShame said:
Right, because the patriarchy is responsible for human biology and psychology. That is a very reasonable thing to say. We can also assume the patriarchy was responsible for the extinction of dinosaurs.

TheHandOfShame said:
The part you bolded was followed by: and not because men told them so.

TheHandOfShame said:
Tell women to stop writing that stuff, then.

TheHandOfShame said:
Do you think promiscuity made any sense prior to the invention of reliable birth control? It doesn't even make sense AFTER the invention of reliable birth control.

TheHandOfShame said:
And yet they are free to do so anyway, and anyone who has a problem with it is immediately drowned out by people screaming: "SLUT SHAMING SLUT SHAMING SLUT SHAMING."

TheHandOfShame said:
Assuming for a moment that this is true, the answer you're looking for is feminism.

TheHandOfShame said:
No, just whatever they decide to do.

TheHandOfShame said:
Also, if women are all about the equality, then why do we still have the double standard of mocking male virgins but not female virgins? What you still refuse to acknowledge is that this double standard cuts both ways (and that women are the ones who adore promiscuous men, thus doing their part in upholding both sides of the double standard).

sabconth said:
True, and who's to blame?

sabconth said:
Hint; It rhymes with anarchy.

TheHandOfShame said:
For a moment there I completely forgot you're a degenerate.

TheHandOfShame said:
Right, of course you can't understand why divorce matters.

TheHandOfShame said:
From nature. It is biological. Promiscuous women cannot be trusted to not cuckold the man (even in the 21st century).

TheHandOfShame said:
But now you're wondering how promiscuity could destabilize society? These dots are not that hard to connect. Single motherhood (which is particularly a problem among black Americans and white Britons) is also destabilizing because the children are disproportionately likely to grow up as criminals and delinquents.

TheHandOfShame said:
If men could get pregnant, the biology and power balance of the sexes would be completely different than they are now, so this is a laughably pointless argument to make.

TheHandOfShame said:
We might as well debate what would happen if women could shoot lasers from their vaginas, or what would happen if sentient clouds ruled the Earth.

TheHandOfShame said:
I am the one who wants women to not get raped, you're the one who's trying to get them raped.

TheHandOfShame said:
Also, nice job completely dodging the issue by changing the subject.

TheHandOfShame said:
Wow, it's almost like it takes two people to cause a pregnancy. But only one of them is unable to choose whether to take responsibility. This is not equal, and if you disagree then you are lying about supporting equality.

TheHandOfShame said:
These are facts, not opinions.

sabconth said:
So how about you teach everyone here, particularly the women and girls, what you consider to be proper safety techniques to avoid getting themselves raped. Other than the most common error of wearing a shirt with "rape me" written on it while walking down Rape Street in Rape Town of course.

Should they dress conservatively?

Only go out drinking with a large group of friends?

Not drink at all?

Get home before dark?

Make sure they don't appear to be sending out mixed signals?

Avoid dark alleys? (which is a popular myth as 85% of rapes occur by someone the victim knows usually at a place familiar to them0

Maybe choosing to step foot out the door without a male escort is grounds enough to hold them responsible if they are attacked?

TheHandOfShame said:
So in conclusion, your problem with all this is that women are no longer 100 % free to do whatever they wish with no negative consequences. Do you really think men don't have to ever worry about crime?

TheHandOfShame said:
"Because some married couples raise their children poorly, let's do away with marriage and let single mothers raise all the children." Yet another cunning plan from sabconth that is sure to end well for everyone involved.

TheHandOfShame said:
"He's right. Shit, I'd better change the subject quickly by playing Dr. Phil and speculating about his personal life."

TheHandOfShame said:
As far as they're concerned, they're not responsible at all.

TheHandOfShame said:
I never said they have no responsibility. I am trying to remind you of the fact that women are responsible too, and in fact more responsible since they are the ones who ultimately choose whether sex occurs, and have the biggest responsibility for the child. But now the attitude is that they don't have to give a shit about anything, and if an accident occurs they can either abort it or have somebody pay for it.

TheHandOfShame said:
Not quite as vile as your contempt for marriage.

TheHandOfShame said:
Feminism is responsible for a good chunk of that failure rate, and you even said yourself that divorce doesn't matter. Little wonder that women are divorcing their husbands in droves (and stealing all their shit in the process, which I'm sure is entirely incidental).

TheHandOfShame said:
Because a man and a woman raising a child is the most balanced and optimal way, and the natural way of things (after all, two people of the same sex can't create a child).

TheHandOfShame said:
However, even if society made every conceivable effort to reduce rape, there would still be rape. It's unavoidable.

TheHandOfShame said:
Then promiscuity and gay marriage are unnatural.

TheHandOfShame said:
And where did I say otherwise?

TheHandOfShame said:
Well you should have, because that's what we were talking about.

TheHandOfShame said:
And women shouldn't care about their own safety because it's not their responsibility to do so. That is the feminist position.

TheHandOfShame said:
I said "morally and legally."

TheHandOfShame said:
Speak for yourself.

TheHandOfShame said:
Whenever I talk about how feminists are awful, I am talking about people like sabconth. Oh, what's that? He isn't "extreme"?

TheHandOfShame said:
...sabconth's views may seem utterly ordinary and sensible to you, but to non-feminists he is a raving lunatic.

TheHandOfShame said:
What's pathetic is believing privilege is a real thing, and believing that The Patriarchy is such an all-powerful force that it's responsible for human biology. People say many things about Jews, but at least I've never heard anyone accusing them of time travel

TheHandOfShame said:
Nature does not know the concept of fairness, only humans do. From our perspective it is unfair that some children are born with a disability, but you wouldn't try to blame someone for it, because you understand that nobody is responsible. So why is rape any different?

TheHandOfShame said:
There will always be rapists no matter what. Some people are defective in the mind as surely as some people are defective in the body. It's all fine and well to hold the rapist accountable, but you can't make rapists disappear.

TheHandOfShame said:
There are many dangers in life, both natural and man-made. Dealing with those dangers involves inconviniencing yourself and doing things you don't want to do.

TheHandOfShame said:
For example, what is the proposed feminist solution the underrepresentation of women in the video game industry? Is it "let's make some fucking games and show those guys what's up," or is it "there should be more women in leadership positions in the industry"? The latter, of course. The world should simply rearrange itself to meet feminist expectations. Why should they have to do anything? It's not fair, mommy!

Saying women should sometimes be held responsible for getting themselves raped would fall under your definition of 'fucked up' though.

No I wasn't, and what on earth do you even mean by extraterrestrial? Did you think I was implying the media comes from sources outside our atmosphere?

Patriarchy is responsible for much of human psychology.

It's what tells men they are losers if they aren't having lots of sex. It's what tells women their most important duty in the world is to have babies. It's what tells us that men must be strong at all costs, and if they aren't, then they should be looked down upon or ridiculed.

I said patriarchy is responsible for making people define women by their beauty alone, so you interpret this to somehow mean that what I was saying is patriarchy is responsible for all human biology.

No, men didn't tell them to, only the media did. The media which is controlled by men, for men and tells women what men really want.

"The Frontman Fallacy" is a term I invented myself. What happened was that someone on the Usenet newsgroup alt.mens- rights asked for help in devising a term. The term was to encapsulate the wrongheadedness of a common Feminist assumption. This was the assumption that the fact that men held most of the positions of power in the world meant that men ruled the world principally for their own benefit -- i.e. they "oppressed" women.

My suggestion, which was accepted by the person who had asked for the help, was "The Frontman Fallacy". So the Frontman Fallacy is the mistaken belief that people (men, specifically) who are in positions of authority in democratic systems use their power mainly to benefit the categories of people (the category of "men", in particular) that they belong to themselves.

Like I said, not every woman who is involved in media is thinking about the advancement and respect of women in mind.

Now though, between healthy, informed adults in the 21st century, it's a lifestyle anyone should be able to choose.

As for making sense? Well, people like sex. They like having sex with lots of different people. Maybe you think that's wrong, but as you might say, it's 'natural.'

Actually anyone who has a problem with it is usually seen as the jealous type who isn't getting any themselves.

It's only referred to as slut shaming when someone says that woman are sluts for doing so or that they should be held responsible if they are attacked.

So feminists taught guys not to think or respect women as people, because, as you've stated many times before, they are actively working to increase the number of actual rapes to further their own goals.

So what you're saying is that the feminists wanting women to be allowed to decide whatever they want to do is wrong.

And that if they do things that displease men, they should have to be judged for that accordingly.

Yet you seem to think it's feminists who are to blame. I don't remember feminists ever teaching that men who don't have sex should be ridiculed. Just the opposite actually, they think guys who wait or want to find the right person are a rare and commendable breed.

And it isn't women that say a female virgin is a great thing to be, that would once again be the patriarchy.

You mean that thing that happens in over 50% of marriages and causes a mountain of heartache for everyone involved, particularly the children? Yeah I've heard of it.

I've also got a solution for it: don't get married.

But promiscuous men can be trusted not to sleep around?

Sounds like a double standard to me.

Also, if the guy's wife really is cheating on him, he can easily walk away or get a divorce.

Then the answer to that problem would be better sex education, freer access to birth control and the legalization of abortion across every nation.

You say women shouldn't decide abortion on a whim, because that's wrong.

I say that if men were the ones having babies they too would also choose to have abortions on a whim, and they would want that freedom to exercise that right without being judged.

In other words, if women want to decide to have an abortion on a whim, I say that's fine, because if the roles were reversed I, as a man, would want the same privilege too.

You are the one who is saying women should take responsibility for putting themselves into situation where they might be raped.

I am the one saying that the rapist is the only one to blame and that blaming the women is a monstrous idea in the first place.

Neither should be unable to take responsibility in the first place. But women will be the ones having to deal with a possible abortion or an unwanted child all on their own, the guys simply have to pay money. There isn't a comparison between who is handed the greater responsibility here.

If you truly believe that, then how about you point out some situations where a woman did something stupid that resulted in her getting attacked.

Here, I'll re-post the rest you didn't bother to answer.

No one is 100% free to do whatever they want with no negative consequences.

But women have to deal with being told they should have less freedom than men because they are more at risk of being a victim of crime. And that even if they follow all these safety measures and are still raped, it might still be their fault.

And what feminists and I say is that removing part of the blame from the attacker and placing it on the victim in cases of rape is wrong because a woman should not be held responsible for the actions of a rapist.

Yet again you present what I said as a straw man argument and even go so far as to put words into my mouth that I never even said.

I didn't say 'let's do away with marriage', just that it isn't the only way to raise a child, nor in some cases even the best way.

Again you try to speak for me and attempt to make me claim things I never said.

I am well aware of the responsibilities of a woman who gets pregnant. No matter what she chooses, unlike the man, she cannot walk away from this obligation. She will have to choose to keep the baby and either raise it herself or give it up for adoption, and if she chooses to abort it she has to bear the responsibility of this decision alone and follow through to the end.

A marriage is just an idea, people can hate, belittle or demean it all they like, it isn't harming anyone and it's everyone's choice to do so.

But you openly dislike and ridicule women who want to have sex outside of a monogamous relationship. These are real people your judging and hating.

Perhaps marriage isn't for everyone and you'll just have to accept that.

You say that women are stealing all 'their', meaning men's, shit when they get divorced.

But doesn't a marriage mean both partners are bound together by law and must share the wealth together?

Then it makes perfect sense that a woman, or a man for that matter, should receive 50% of the assets during a divorce.

But jeez, when you think about it, that really isn't an attractive prospect for many people. It kinda makes marriage seem like a bad idea.

But like you said, natural doesn't equal good, so even if it was the standard practice it doesn't mean it was the best or even the right way to do things.

And while two people of the same sex cannot technically make a baby between themselves, they can help create one through IVF or a surrogate donor.

Going by my definition of what constitutes accepted standards of behavior of right and wrong then yes some would and still do consider them unnatural. But attitudes towards things can change. Porn was once considered the most unnatural of vices, now it's common and accepted. Even marijuana is undergoing a rethink amongst many people and what was once considered an unnatural and illegal drug may one day be seen as natural and as safe as painkillers.

You didn't. I'm just explaining why rape or any other crime is still the fault of the person committing it.

But why would you be unwilling to talk about the most common and prevalent form of rape? Is it because you can't find a way to blame it on feminists? Is it because there is so little the women can be held responsible for?

Women shouldn't have to be blamed for being raped is the feminist position, everyone should try and be as responsible as possible when it comes to their own safety.

So under what definition is the woman responsible for being raped? 'rationally?' 'usually?'

Then you're privileged.

TheHandOfShame said:


Yet when it comes to any other crime, people will not hesitate to call somebody out for being stupid and careless, and nobody has ever explained to me what makes rape any different.

TheHandOfShame said:

They started a war on men, created a culture promoting promiscuity and hedonism, and rejected all traditional values. The result is mutual hatred, distrust and dehumanization.

sabconth said:
Yes but what AnnoKano, and a few others, have been asking is who were these extreme feminists you were talking about before you became aware of me.

And nobody accused the patriarchy of wiping out the dinosaurs but you.

Because somebody doesn't choose to be born disabled, a rapist chooses to rape.

Most of the time a man doesn't rape a woman because he is mentally defective, it's because he was brought up believing that women should serve as sex objects and that what they want doesn't matter.

If we can change that attitude we owe to to ourselves as a species to do so.

Yes this is true, but women are living in fear even in situations where they cannot prevent nor did nothing to provoke an attack.

Men don't have to worry about being raped by their wives, or their sisters, mothers, girlfriends or female acquaintances., yet when the genders are reversed women do have to worry about these possibilities.

The problem is that convincing the big game companies to make your game is not an easy task, man or woman.

And since the video game industry is still heavily focused on targeting males, it can be difficult to find women who want to get involved in wanting to make games or study game design in the first place.

extraspectra said:
I might be wrong, but I think the blaming the women for being raped is one aspect of attribution bias, and many people do not feel that it is alright to blame the victims of most crimes

Was going to go further, but you have got to be just messing with people. There is simply no way that is sincere.

JennyEsquire said:
Sabconth didn't reply to the links I sent him regarding domestic abuse. Maybe he missed it