Code Geass - Hangyaku no Lelouch R2 Episode 16 Discussion

Nayrael said:
I don't remember him ever sacrificing a friend. In fact, when Suzaku betrayed him to the emp, he was shocked of what his friend has done to him and that became the reason for his hatred.
And right now, we don't know what would he do if one of his friends became his enemy.

Freedon, peace and equality?
By making the members of UN give up their armies and embrace Black Knight as their protection, he turned them into his vassals and took from them everything they might use to resost his orders. To make a long story short, he took them their freedom.
Peace? He will turn the entire world into a battlefield and oce the Britannian Empire is crushed, ambitious nations will try to take over some parts of the world as theirs. There is no peace here until Zero crushes Britannia and every ambitious faction. There will be many. many wars before the world is destroyed and rebuilt.
Equality? Well, that one might come true. But that was his dream since R1.

Suzaku is not considered his friend since L.L. found out that Suzaku is loyal to the Empire enough to die for it and every trace of friendship dissapeared when Suzaku told him that he just wants to kill every Black Knight and Zero.
In R2, he tries to turn him into a friend again because noone else would be able to protect Nunnaly. It is not that he considers him his friend. It is that he is his only ensurance that Nunnaly will be safe. If nunnaly dies, all he fought for will be in vain (tough that would certanly turn him into a true anti-hero... perhaps even into a villain like Yagami LKight from Death Note. Man, that would be awesome...).
In fact, until the last episode, he considers Suazku one of his greatest enemies and the one who deserves to die for what he did. A true friend would think that he can still be saved.

You forget one thing: even L.L. knows that thiese friends might die during the 2nd Battle for Tokio or during anotehr incident. They are just a rememberment for what world he wanted to create.

He expected that C.C. would tell him all one day, like she promised. And there is a gerater chance that he will get thruth from her then from the Order.
He understands the power of controlling the Order but he probably also understood that it was a double aged sword and using such things is a gamble. Also, forcing people to have geass (and thereby become lonly and unfriendly) is not his picture of ideal world.

As I told few sentences before, he has no other choice but to rely on him. That ain't because he thinks of him as a friend but because he wants to turn that friendship into a weapon.
And what could he possibly do? He no longer has military holdings in Japan and the fact that emp knows that l.L. is Zero, there is no time to be lost.

But lets see this move from political move. Suzaku is a Knight of Rounds and is a powerful person in military (which increases his influence). He is also well respected by the Emp (which increases his influence and what can be used to persuade the Emp to spare Nunnaly). He is also an idol for all Honored Brittains and if he turned against the Empire for some reasons, a majority of those Honoured Britains would follow him, giving him a great militay power (Britains know this and will be more careful with him because of this which further increaes his influence). He also has at leats two good friends in Knights of the Rounds and that further increases his power.
In other words, what better move can L.L. possibly make?

And the risk?
Revealing identity? Suzaku probably alredy found out about that and since the Emp knows about it, it is no longer important to hide his own identity to those who know that he is Zero.
Coming in person? There is a great chance that Suzaku, if he rejects his offer, will want to beat him in battle. It is a gamble, but gambles are necessary if you want to win.

It is hard to come up with a plan to save nunally, and even harder if you think about the fact that time is tight. Persuading Suzaku to protect Nunnaly is the safest move he can make.

We are talking about cliche's here. In such series, he woul not go to such boundaries.

Suzaku loved Nunnaly as much as L.L. does. However, he betrayed both him and her with rejecting his offer. If he was a cliche friend, he would try to save her or at least ask more about her rather then saying "You are so naive Lelouch" and preparing to shoot.

From herois way, his actions are still justicable. Unlike sommon opinion, Nunnaly would not be hurt by what Suzaku did with the Phone scene. However, it would show that L.L. is a dangerous criminal again. He wanted to capture Zero no matter what. However, other then the Refrain scene, he has never done anything villanous. IF he was a villain, woudn't he kill those Zero's? Would anyone blame him? And he knew that letign them go would cause problems for Britannia.

His relationship with Kallen was always filled with that and since she knows that he is Zero, the relationship bexame closer.
However, nice talks with her increase her loyalty and she is also one if his bext pilots. Losing her is no small thing and if she is taken to Britannia or Japan, he woudn't be able to save her.

Accepting Diethard's or C.C.'s opinion would create problems. Accepting Shirley's opinion would make both sides happy and more loyal (perhaps Xinge woudn't join the Black Knight if he accepted Diethard's advice).
However, I do think that the writer wa high during that scene and thanked God when I saw that glare of his later and when he started to act like older self again.

Vengeance is villanous, not heroic. You can bet that Suzaku would not order the slughter or would at least feel regret. L.L. did none.

He saved her from being saved by Xingke's rebells who have started to take over China. L.L. could as well support him. Peopl would follow their empress and Schneizel would again order a retreat.

He was runing from Britannia and China at that time. No matter what he would have done in that situation would end being considered a forced alliance.
Also, there is no reason to use geass. Tianzi is easily manipulated with words and geass is not essential here.
Also, he would not have kidnapped her if he didn't mean to use her.

In R1, his reason for being in school was to be near Nunnaly and protect her.
In R2, it wsa to hide the fact that he became Zero, again in order to protect nunnaly.
Now, everyone important knows that he is Zero and that there is no reason to hide himself any longer. Or he just had no time to return with forming UN and all.

Eunuchs can still be used and geassed.
And Xingke's influence is strong. If there was no Zero to kidnap Tianzi, a rebellion with good chances of success would have rised. But losing Tianzi meant failure of the rebellion. A normal commander would not be able to preform this, thus showing that he is more powerful then he is allowed. Supporting Xinge's rebellion would also have been profitable.
However, he betrayed a person who helped him on various occasions in past.

Manpower is a weapon. Intents are used to gain such weapons.
In other words, he didn't cerate UN to make the battle a good Vs Evil. He used UN to gain enough power to beat his enemies.

Gave you forgotten the famous: "WE ARE THE ALLIES OF JUSTICE!" quote? Thats the philosophy the Black Knights followed and still follow.

That was like that since L.L. formed the Black Knights. The New World for Nunnaly is not a glass cage where she will be safe. He seeked and seeks to create a world that is not like Brittania and that spits on Brittania's ideology.
He always seeked to cerate such a world and he will sacrifice whatever he needs to create it. The goal justifies the means.

That is also a machiavelistic way of thinking. However, they created Orangeborg so they might pretend to help him and stab him into his back once he ends up in troubles.

Be it as it may, we are both right here and what he has done is both heroic and villanous. The alternatives are also both heroic and villanous.
However, I agree on one thing: the decision he brought was dumb.

Perhaps because V.V. forced them to do that? We do not know how much choice they had and how much they were asked. We don't know if they were preparing to betray V.V.
Also, you don't need a city of scientists to research or create something. Those innocents might have been forced to give their children to V.V.

...which blocks L.L. from creating a prefect world for Nunnaly. You just told a good reason for why L.L. attackd the Cult.

The important part here is that Britannians didn't care for what happened there and many of them still thought of Zero as of a cool guy which proves that innocents didn't see much suffering. Also, the Black Knights think of themeselves as of Allied of Justice. Slaughtering innocent Britains shows that Zero lied and if their leader lied about that then he probably lied about the Liberation of Japan. The effect of that would be faltering in loyalty.
That is important here because it does not show that Zero sacrificed much during that battle. Besides the Liberaton Front that is but then again, they are soldiers.

He would not have done it under normal circumstances because he would have done it much sooner. The fact is: he had no reason to not kill her and he is free to use the situation in his advantage.

You think in extremes. He cared a lot about her and didn't try to use her (he could have geassed her on that island) because of that on various occasions, but he has his limits with her and will use her for his own goals if needed.
He is not Yagami Light from Death Note, no matter what many people think. He always had a heart and he will try to protect his friends whenever possible. However, he is evil enough to use some of them for his own goals if the need should arise.