Muroi is one of the worst characters in anime

Animefreak17a said:

God damn I love debating about this I could go on all day..........thank you for the awesome chat

fukushi said:


I know what you mean, it's been a while I watched the show, but it's still fresh in my memory and it provides so many points of discussion. I don't really know the manga/novel differences, since I'm not much of a reader, so I can judge only from the anime perspective. I did read the whole discussion, though. Normally I'd refrain from commenting, but here I just couldn't stop myself.

I don't see Toshio as a hypocrite for accepting Natsuno's help. As I've already mentioned, he was fighting something which he viewed as a plague thinking that he is alone in this and Natsuno told him straight away that he himself has to be killed with the rest of the shiki. And, once again, what he did to his wife he did as a professional doctor. You see him in a darker light than he really is. He chose his side and fights for his beliefs. And it wasn't him who went mad killing everyone in sight, while of course he was the one who triggered the event.

I understand both points of view. The one which suggests that shiki are still people and the one which suggests that they are just walking dead who should be put to rest. I love vampire anime and I normally side with the vampires, but in this show I liked the characters who resisted it and tried not to hurt other people more. Didn't know Natsuno didn't rise in the novel, so if it was a trick to put him in the anime - it worked on me. Especially the part where Tohru was forced to feed on him. It made a huge impression on me. I had shivers every time I saw ED 2 where Natsuno and Tohru are sitting still while the screen gets drown in blood (the song by BUCK-TICK adds to this greatly for sure). But as you see, in the anime Natsuno asked Tohru to escape with him, but Tohru declined. And you can't blame Natsuno for Megumi. She is a stalker, I wouldn't be nice to a person who stares in my window every evening.

I know about Sunako's pre-story. But I don't see it being that deep. I mean it is pretty understandable how she got turned into a shiki and abandoned by her parents and then, since she was alone all the time, she tried to compensate for what she had to come through. But it's the main argument of whether shiki deserve to live or whether they are just a plague which makes the story deep. So it's not really related to Sunako directly. It's just voiced through her. Yes, she is a shiki, but so are the same Natsuno and Ritsuko.

Also calling someone an idiot because they disagree is not a valid point. As I've said, it was easy for Sunako to manipulate Seishin because he was bitten by her and he felt that they were similar. Bitten people were under hypnosis and Seishin let Sunako feed on him - even though he knew this was going to happen. There are two ways to look at it - he didn't resist it because he was weak and gave up, trying to escape his life instead of changing it and basically giving up on his responsibilities to the village people, knowing that many of them will die or there is a way of viewing it the way you do. Both have the right to exist. I can agree that in the end he does make a choice and partially it is influenced by his own beliefs, but it's also influenced by Sunako and his own weaknesses.

And you don't have to apologize for disagreeing with me. It's fine to disagree. If this story wasn't so controversial it wouldn't be as great and deep.

Animefreak17a said:


A professional doctor doesn't use live creatures while there still moving and alive* I still believe what he did was wrong what he did to his wife even if she was a shiki* how would you feel if one of your loved ones was being experimented on by that mad man.

Animefreak17a said:
The humans killed not only shiki but humans too.......I don't know hoe you could just ignore what they did and follow what the humans did.......

Animefreak17a said:
Wait I thought you said that he was going to die along with the shiki why would he change his mind And say to tohru let's make a run for it......kinda making him seem like he doesn't want to die.

Animefreak17a said:
At least he could of tried to be nice to her there has been loads of charecters in anime who admires other characters and at least they tried to be nice and friendly to them...... but he was cooled to migumi she tried saying hello and he ignored her she tried being friendly and he ignored her, she liked him and wanted to get to know him because he was from the city and that annoyed him just because a girl wanted to know about him and the city .........hell natsuno hated being in the village, migumi tried to get he's attention but didn't even wanted to know her or the shiki......To me he was bland, I kinda knew he wasn't going to live because he was dead in the novel, so it makes sense for him not to live in the end.

Animefreak17a said:
What about the old lady shiki was lived with her daughter she didn't mind giving her blood.

Animefreak17a said:
She didn't manipulate the monk he did it by his own free will yes she bit him but it was only for blood........ she trusted him she was friends with him I mean look at the werewolf kid he had faith the monk would protect her.

Why should he take responsibility for something that he didn't want and was forced on him by the villagers......read chapter 33 and you'll see what I mean, he changed his life by running away from what he hated ............It's like that kid from welcome to the NHK who ran away from home because everyone made his future for him instead of him choosing what he wanted.........look at the monks dad ( really go and read chapter 33 and you'll see what I'm getting at) he was raised to be the next head monk and he didn't have a say on what he wanted to do, he was like a prisoner and he hated the village for making him do something he didn't want but the young monk saw what the village did to his dad and stood up and said .........No il make my own choices I want be something they want me to be in the end he did resist it and his will became strong ( trust me the villagers was forceful and harsh in the manga about wanting everyone to play there part in the village,

About him being influenced by sunako isn't a bad thing she opened his eyes and he made his decision thanks to her and he didn't follow in his father's foot steps and he over came his weaknesses by making his own choices by doing what he wanted to do instead of letting others making him be something he hated,

fukushi said:


They do though, I did bring this up. Many achievements of modern medicine were achieved through such experiments. And to him - she was already dead. It didn't matter what she was doing or saying. Either he takes them all as bloodsucking monsters who want to posses him and fights them or either he gets bitten and possibly dies along with the rest of his village.



I'm not ignoring it. I did say that it turned into a massacre in the end. Especially Tomoi. He was cruel before and just went mad when he was given an opportunity to kill.



To begin with he didn't want to die, he wasn't suicidal. When Tohru came to Natsuno to feed on him, Natsuno suggested they just run away because he valued Tohru as his friend. But Tohru refused because he was afraid of Tatsumi and Kirishiki's family control. After Natsuno was turned into shiki he came to Toshio and told him that Toshio is not alone in his fight, he said that all shiki need to die and since he was already a shiki himself - he needs to die as well. So he said it way after the conversation with Tohru. At first he probably thought that there was a way out when Tohru came to him, but since there was no way out and people just kept dying he decided to take revenge on Kirishiki for forcing his friend through this nightmare. And after he turned into a shiki he refused to kill people and drunk only Toshio's blood to save him from Chizuru's control. So he still remained on the human's side.



He could try, yes. But it wasn't his obligation. And then again, she stalked him. It's not the most pleasant thing to experience, especially if you are trying to seclude yourself from other people. In this case, you'd just find her annoying. But I agree that he is a rather generic character overall. I did say it's a personal preference. I guess he is my type. And I do like that he stayed true to his beliefs even after he turned into a shiki. When Tatsumi came to him, Natsuno said that he isn't exactly on the human's side, but that he just doesn't like the family which started the whole thing. It's kind of one of those badass moments which I always like to see.



That one adds to the whole theme well. It shows how jealous people can be, but when Kirishiki came to the village they didn't come to ask for an occasional snack. They came there to turn the whole village. Though, even if they did ask, I can assume they would just get themselves killed, since Sunako does mention how they were unaccepted wherever they went. So it turns into a circle. They won't be accepted, so they try to fight their way through, and because they do it they get resistance and hate again. But the thing is that their existence causes people to suffer, because people are their food. They might not mean it, but in the end they use the worst methods to feed and end up killing people. And then people kill people too (which was always the thing, because hurray self-destruction).



Yeah, the common village set up and small towns can be like that (no surprise Natsuno hated it, and Megumi hated it too). As I've mentioned, I don't dislike Seishin and I can relate to him personally. But I just dislike his choices. Instead of fighting what the village people were forcing on him - he attempts to commit suicide. He claims himself a pacifist, but being a pacifist is not about not killing anyone, it's about not letting people to die. While it's arguable whether shiki are living or dead - from the technical point of view, they have already died, willingly or not, but death is always like that, it's always sad and it's always unfair. And after they die they drag other people with them, because there is no 100% guarantee that they will rise back to "life". This is not what pacifism is about. Then after being so reluctant this whole time Seishin suddenly shapes up and prevents the winning side from having a clean win. It almost looks like he was there the whole time to save one of the shiki so that the story could have a sequel. But I guess I know where they were coming from with that - neither of the sides are good enough to win. And really, there is no winning, just a shitty situation where people die.

Animefreak17a said:
I mean yeah they do sugary and stuff like that but not torment people while there alive and feel pain And yes to him she was dead ( he's point of view) but only because he sees it like that doesn't mean others feel the same old say it experimenting on living things including shiki is wrong its like what the Pentagon did to those monkeys they put machines in side monkey heads and I swear it was the most horrible thing I have ever seen ........next to what those bullies did to Lucy's puppy from elfen lied.

Animefreak17a said:
But wait he said the shiki needs to die but he says that they should run...............that's confusing if he wanted to help he's friend then why didn't he try to help him escape near the end if he wanted them to run away and then doesn't?????? He's kinda a hypocrite saying that all the shiki needs to die but says they should run away................Oh by the way in the manga he doesn't blow him self up he just falls in the pit and dies with that werewolf kid.

Animefreak17a said:
You know that guy with the big gun who was human but was on the shikis side well natsuno told him to kill he's family but he killed him self for stop that from happening, that another thong the monk wasn't the only human who accepted the shiki but-

The big gun wielding guy
The monk
And the daughter of the old lady shiki
The monks father who wanted to become a shiki

What do you say to these people

Animefreak17a said:

Yes your right there because I've seen a lot of anime with humans hating anything that's not human or is human but isn't the same as them selfs like-

Elfen lied
Blassreiter
*dance in the vampire bund* note you need to watch this it's like shiki and its a total bad ass anime but you'll need to read the rest but to get what I'm talking about you'll need to read chapter 70 from there to the finish but it's worth the read ......It's also a favourite of mine.
Basilisk
And others

Anyways the point is that even if they wad peaceful and had blood from blood banks or had donated blood they'd still be hated ( again watch and read Dance in the vampire bund this anime/manga brings up this point perfectly )

Animefreak17a said:
It's not like they asked to become shiki and they don't want to die and really there suffering to but there making the best of what and who they are and they won't be judged for it because there not humans while killing people because it's humans who sin not shiki because there shiki not humans.

Animefreak17a said:
Well he felt he had no way out and thought it was the only way out .....people do stupid things when there backed in to a corner, and not letting people die is right but the shiki wasn't humans so it's not a for them to kill.humans and brink there blood, it's a complex thing about shiki.......Some say there dead while others say there alive and the dead don't move, it's very very complicated.......To me if there moving and have intelligence and reasoning and speech then to me there not dead.

I totally agree with you........ I think it was that I didn't wanted my favourite charecters to die that really got my blood going.

You know it's nice to have a nice chat with a opposition that doesn't shout and scream .....the shiki are monster, that F****** monk I hate him ect ect bit here it's really really nice just to talk about it............I get really angry at people who just hate he characters just for the sake of hating them or they wasn't humans or and stuff like that,

Animefreak17a said:
I'd be thanking the kid for turning me in to the perfect shiki where you can go out in the sun and is immortal that would be awesome in my book.

Animefreak17a said:
And the old ladies daughter just saw her mother not a shiki or anything else it was her mother who loved her and took care of her even when her dad died and was always kind to her and when she got back she didn't attack her daughter or visa versa it was two loved ones who got reunited but was separated again thanks to he mod.

Masoa differs from the manga to the anime in the manga he was going to attack her but in the anime he asked for her help but in both she killed him............ I believe that Chizuko didn't like him like how he didn't like her...........come on there's loads of in laws in this world who don't even like each other,Chizuko hates the shiki because they was the one who drank dry one of her children..........hell in one episode she's cooking and kills one shiki like it was nothing you could say she was blood thirsty in one point of view, these two didn't get along even in the manga and she was glad he was dead.

Animefreak17a said:
And I bet even if there was shiki who wanted to be on the humans side I doubt that the humans would even trust them and kill them * thank you doctor for lying to the villagers)

Animefreak17a said:
I get that but..............have you ever seen Buffy the vampire slayer .......in that show after they become vampires the also become evil or mischievous an with no soul but still has the memories of when they was humans.......maybe he thought that they was just evil with the memories still in tact, chizuru and tatsumi was just cocky cause they thought they won and no one stood a chance,
Maybe he saw them like that, but it's kinda ironic if you ask me......the shiki was he's patients who he tried to save but ended up killing them,

Animefreak17a said:
Can I ask you something well two things actually

1 if a loved one who was a shiki came to you for help what would you do.
Second question
2 if you was hunting the shiki and came a cross people who was protecting there family who was shiki now let you though to kill them what would you do.

fukushi said:


I did see some of Buffy the vampire slayer when I was a kid, but I don't remember it clearly.



To be honest, I have no idea how I would behave if I were put in Shiki setting. But:
1. I would probably have very little chances against a vampire since I don't do any sport activities. So I'd be an easy prey. It has little to do with the way I would feel about it, since my loved one would come to me with one goal - to feed on me. And most likely they would succeed just because I'm physically weak.
2. I doubt I'd be hunting shiki because as I've said, I'd probably die early in the series. And I imagine I would just go crazy if something like that happened to my friends and family. So it's difficult to say how I would behave. Lets be real, I could be hiding somewhere, crying the absolute shit out of myself or bashing my head against the wall until I die.

But we sure derailed the topic as far as we could :D

Animefreak17a said:
But wait though out history man has invaded other lands of people like-

The Americans taking over the natives land from them and killing them
The inhabitants of Australia being ostracized and there lands being taken by the white man
South Africa
And soooo many others and still doing it today
We has humans have done this though out history and still doing it today.

heathen-queen said:
I kinda understand the villagers' obsession with their rules/norms. They value tradition so much; they feel safe with these norms. It's as if these norms are necessary for their function, their structure. It's unbearable for some, yes, but for years the village has been in peace. At the end of the day, it's up to you if you give in to the pressure of your society.

Despite that, they're not at all very hostile to newcomers. They were nice to Natsuno; it's Natsuno who's being surly. They naively invite the Kanemasa people to their homes (poof, they become Shiki.)

And like what I've been saying, Sunako took them by force. Had the case been otherwise (like in dance of the vampire bund), I might have sympathized with the Shiki. I'm not all for crazy hunts where innocents are killed. Doing the Salem is out of fashion nowadays. However, that is one simple but crucial reason for me to side with the villagers.

heathen-queen said:
Really? I'm in; except that we're probably going to have a hard time. The natives are not in power, they don't run the system. Look at what happened to them; they were displaced and oppressed. It's too late now and the damage has been done. Unlike in Shiki where the Sotoba villagers can still fight the threat and not end up being the prey.

Apologies if I'm too fixated on the invasion thing, I just can't see a reason to justify it.

Ckan said:
Well said, and don't worry about the 'topic'.

The one thing that you haven't seemed to have touched on that I think is worth meantioning is fear.

All sides were driven by it to some extent. The villagers were obviously fearful of the 'undead', while the newborn shiki were rightfully frightened by their new circumstances. Even Sunako was afraid. And of course, fear is the close-cousin of " the bad side of humans often seen... when people think that they have a rightful cause."

heathen-queen said:
The villagers were not killing the Shikis due to individual differences but because the shikis were proven to be a threat to their own survival. If the Shikis were not a threat, it would have been just another crazy Salem Witch Trials and I'd easily side with the Shikis.

The Shikis who killed their family so they can be reunited put their family's lives at stake. It's a gamble- you either become a Shiki or be dead. Look at Nao, she was miserable at the end. And what if your relative does not really want to become Shiki? It's rather selfish.

The villagers killed the villagers-turned-to-Shikis because if they did not, they will be the next prey. Despite the fact that the shikis still have the human minds they have, they live as killers. That's how they were trained by Tatsumi at first; they have to kill in order to survive even though they can still drink blood without killing. Those who refuse to do so were left under the sun in the morning.

The nurse and the old lady Shiki who refused to drink blood were in so much pain for restraining themselves. The nurse would die anyway in the hands of Shikis because she chose not to kill (and I salute her for her bravery).

The crime that the liquor store guy, Masao and Megumi did were more heinous than the other Shikis though, because they killed with malice. It's murder (which humans are also perfectly capable of, in real life).

However, the humans' response were extreme and I won't deny that they violated human rights here. As a consequence of the events, we get to see the bad side of humans which we most often see in times of war, when people think that they have a rightful cause.

Even though I side with the humans (and sad about Sotoba because I want to live in a peaceful country village like that), I am also cool with the ending. Almost everyone, Shikis and humans alike, are guilty of killing so no one should really have won. And it's more, I dunno, dramatic.

Sorry for the thread starter. All this time we've been off-topic. haha.

heathen-queen said:
Yeah, I forgot to mention fear in my previous post but Ckan has explained it better.

Anyway, let's continue as you please. The Shikis source of food are the humans and the source of food of humans are let's say cattles, to simplify. It's ethical for humans to eat and kill cattles as it is may be ethical for Shikis too to kill humans for blood, since they need to survive. The problem is that the humans are able to fight against being food, unlike the cattle, and fight if they must to survive too. Like bears mauling hunters. It's just a battle for survival.

And then I realized that the Shikis do not really need to kill in order to obtain blood. In one scene, Sunako drank from a wineglass. So it's not really necessary to drain your victim blood which why does the Shikis keep on doing, increasing the body count further? And clearly, they do not consider other options of feeding themselves other than killing, they were raising the newly recruited Shikis to be killers too. It's going to be painful if they resisted their first kill and not every one is as strong as the nurse; in the end it has become the shiki's nature to kill. For me, it's the fault of the Shiki leaders (esp Tatsumi) here- they're really are that bloodthirsty (pun intented). Other feeding options could have prevented the battle between Shikis and the humans.

Those series that you mentioned will really make you lose faith in humanity (may I add Witch Hunter Robin to that? I love that series.) I once read in a comic that "Humans are not really afraid of the unknown. In fact they are cool with it, as long as it stays unknown. What they fear is that when the unknown makes itself known." So if the shikis just hide their identities and pretend that they are humans, as long as they do not incite mass hysteria, they will not be pursued. They were doing a great job before they attempted to claim Sotoba, right?

Or just a hilarious idea: if sunako really wants to let it all out and obtain an army of shikis, she could have founded a cult that promises eternal life. Their claim is more honest than most of the religions anyway- I'm sure there will be lots of volunteers and they will never be hungry again. haha. we can only speculate though, as these things did not happen in their world.

At this point of our conversation, I also realize that may be Sunako's not really evil; she just have a foolish dream and she surrounded herself with wrong persons who ill-advised her like Tatsumi. He's really the vilest among the Shikis (but I love his character btw)- forcing the Shikis to kill and blackmailing them. But I'm sure Sunako has learned her lesson now when it comes to attempting to own a village again. And with Muroi by her side, I know she'll be advised to consider other ways of obtaining food.

As for Megumi, yes she did not stabbed nor bashed anyone in the head and just drank blood but with malice. She wanted them dead for her own reasons. It's still murder (I think of other shiki killings as homicide).

heathen-queen said:
I believe there's no right or wrong when it comes to a battle for survival, it's just a matter of whoever wins. For so many years, humans have been in the top of the food chain and when a new species (say like the shikis) emerge that threatens their position, there'll be a battle. But hey, mankind struggled against their natural predators for millenia so let's give them the credit for that.

Yes, Sunako had that foolish dream but I don't think she's immature or stucked with a 5-year old brain. Her physical body stopped developing but she's just as intelligent as an adult (like Claudia, in Interview with the Vampire). No 5 year-old can say philosophical stuff like the impartiality of death. It was even said that in the relationship of Chizuru and Sunako, Sunako is the mother.

Case in point, I believe that she should have seen the flaws in her dream. We have our own personal wants but as we get older, we realize when it is not feasible to have that. And that dream has proven itself to be a bad idea since it led to her downfall and the death of her family.

Hiding yourself from the people seemed better- at least those shikis she called family would have been alive. There are many fictional vampires who have lived in peace hiding their identities; even the lame vampires in Twilight can do that. Besides, they are rich and capable of mind control. If it is acceptance is what she wants, it is hard for humans, yes. But they can also relax and enjoy in human territories while hiding (and plenty of food in the big cities too- they don't have to kill since they can jump from one person to another; just cause an anemia epidemic, maybe).

Them wanting the village that's why they kill- I believe that's what I said I am against at right from the start.

There are many fictional works that portray vampires as sympathetic creatures but there are also many than can portray them as vicious killers too. In my opinion, Shiki tried to balance it so the viewers/readers can sympathize with the shikis but still see the reason why humans have to act. Maybe it's just that appeal to emotions does not work very well for me when it comes to a battle for survival.

This discussion benefits me, too, as I can practice my English. :)

heathen-queen said:
Well, was it stated in the series that they're older than humans? I assumed they were a new species. If so, then I stand corrected; humans are the dominant species but not at the top of the food chain. But it's quite irrelevant now, so let's leave it at that.

So we both agree that Sunako's dream is childish but I am still not buying the idea that Sunako has a 5 year-old mind. A genius child is someone who crams info into its brain but still makes decisions like a child. No, Sunako is able to deduce that killing Dr. Ozaki will make the mob disperse; clearly not how a child would think. When it was said that Sunako is like a mother to Chizuru, it means that she is able to control (such as discipline or become lenient to) the childish nature of Chizuru.

The problems they might encounter if they continued hiding- they can easily solve that. They can always reason out a photosensitivity disease, etc. They need not to associate themselves with humans anyway. If someone found out about them, they can always use mind control. Even human criminals in the wanted list can hide themselves in crowded places effectively. Still, the series has proven that hiding is much better than pursuing that dream of hers (unless they're thinking of suicide).

When you transform into shiki, you die; you are killed. If there is other means of survival that does not involve killing but the shikis still kill because (you say) they wanted to turn the others into shikis, then that makes it even more devious. They do not kill for survival anymore but for personal gain. It's not like a human killing a cattle anymore. It's not like Sunako killing the women who bring her food because she's hungry. Well, not all shikis think like that but they are being manipulated to act like that. Now, this diminishes my sympathy for the shikis, sorry.

The villagers built Sotoba, they do not owe anything to the shikis and so, the shikis have no right to claim their village nor transform them into shikis. Albeit the means of the humans were wrong, their intent to defend their village is justifiable.

heathen-queen said:
well, if we do that, i'm afraid i will be just repeating myself. besides, my interests are lying elsewhere (outside anime) right now. my visits to this site are becoming less frequent.

Animefreak17a said:
The doctor is the worst then the monk

Pan151 said:


His family was killed by the villagers, led by his best (and only) friend. He has nothing left in the village and, like his book character, he just wanted to get away from it all all along.

Besides, in the end he was killed and became risen himself, so he cannot ever return even if he wanted to.

Try actually watching the series first before complaining.