What did you think of this episode?
5Loved it!
63.3%
145
4Liked it!
27.5%
63
3It was OK
4.4%
10
2Disliked it
2.2%
5
1Hated it
2.6%
6
Average 4.5
229 votes
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| THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE. ---------------------------------------- Paul von Oberstein's VA sounded far too familiar so I had to look it up. Turns out it's the same person that also voiced Dusanyu from Crest/Banner of the Stars. Dusanyu knew how to play it smart and it looks like Paul does also. He was the only level headed person of significance on the Empire's side in that whole encounter. The rest of the leadership and imperial crew were idiots. I'm glad he was able to get away and not have to die in vain with Hans. He has the potential to be a capable leader so I'll be looking closely to see if he'll play a significant role later. So far battles have been lopsided due to idiots on both sides. I want to see some more evenly matched opponents. Then things will really get interesting. |
 ...even a saint needs a soldier to do the dirty work. |
| heh, my thoughts exactly |
     "There is no such thing as God in this world." -Setsuna F. Seiei |
| Okay Fredrica Greenhill speaks at the 2 minute mark and is introduced 16 fucking minutes later! These names are seriously starting to bug me now. "Yang the Magician" LOL.I hope this is the last we see of "Stubborn old fat veteran gets showed up by younger more fit dude. I'm also glad he survived. I'm assuming they are just going to let the civilians go, in the fortress? Entertaining though. 4/5 So is the next battle going to be Reinhard vs. incompetets, or what? I'm guessing they are doing this so YangxReinhard stuff is more badass. |
wtfyourface said: MistaCloudStrife said: OVER 9000!!!From 100-1000, how much do you love LWL? |
| Don't sweat the names too much. Anyone critical to the story will be introduced enough times where you won't have to worry about them. |
| ...even a saint needs a soldier to do the dirty work. |
| Yeah you're right. I was over-reacting. |
wtfyourface said: MistaCloudStrife said: OVER 9000!!!From 100-1000, how much do you love LWL? |
| Well, if there's one thing we've learned from this series, it's never put an old guy in charge. Making an experienced, battle-hardened veteran the leader of your fleet nearly ensures its destruction. Also, the crazier a plan sounds, the more likely it is to succeed. And a smaller force always triumphs over a larger one, usually without taking any casualties. LoveWifeLunch said: So is the next battle going to be Reinhard vs. incompetets, or what? I'm guessing they are doing this so YangxReinhard stuff is more badass. Probably. Even though the end of this episode claims that the balance has now been upset, I'm convinced that the stalemate will be even worse with Yang and Reinhard leading opposing fleets. |
| Oberstein is definitely one of the purest Machiavelliansts I've seen in any story. Have to love the cold bastard XD |
| Nata-chan, your points are all completely valid and I found myself thinking how silly the episode was...and yet the show still remains enjoyable for its epic scope full of characters with ever-increasing depth, however much they're sorrounded by caricatures. Regarding your first point though, we could also take Yang's faith from another point of view, in that he's not basing his faith on the guy's defense of a woman, but that its Yang's subversive attempt at winning people over by showing them respect that no one else would. Plus, Yang is tasked with tackling an operation that millions of soldiers couldnt win, yet he has to do it with much less and so he knows the only alternative is infiltration and not all out war, he has to involve the rosen-ritters whether its stupid or not, because the Alliance cant get within miles of the fortress. He's already on a suicide mission, so there's no point in leaving out exiles of the Empire, might as well give them a shot. It was all handled sloppily, but the general jist of the episode's plan is sound. In my opinion anyway. But yeah, it went too easily with the commander acting like an oaf leaving the fortress manned by less people than it takes to run a McDonalds or something, but the writer did at least try to put obstacles in the way like the dude who set off the emergency alarm thing. Also that was some hardcore axe fighting. Felt like a classic Hollywood 80's action flick. I loved the moment where the rosen-ritter guy is just waiting behind a pillar with his axe hanging out waiting for an unsuspecting baddie. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
Cihan said: Also that was some hardcore axe fighting. Felt like a classic Hollywood 80's action flick. I loved the moment where the rosen-ritter guy is just waiting behind a pillar with his axe hanging out waiting for an unsuspecting baddie. That was totally Total Recall, sans hologram projector. |
Nata-chan said: There's a lot that bothers me in this episode. [...] 1- I share Beatnik's opinion here. 2- For an important fortress, "two heads are better than one". For those two to reach those positions, they should have some prior military achievements. Then, if they are on the same level, it doesn't make sense for one to have to answer to the other. 3- Because they believe the fortress is impregnable. It would be a (supposed) waste of men. 4- Again, the fortress is supposedly impregnable. You just need a few guards to avoid foolish internal disputes. 5- Superiors' orders are absolute! Disobeying orders is a severe crime, possibly punished with execution. As proof, the blond man was going to shoot; he only stopped and dropped his gun because it was an order. 6- Their superior had been killed. In addition to that, the RosenRitter are feared for their superior attributes. No one likes to enter a losing battle. 7- At first, rushing in, according to him, would be a stupid sacrifice as he would effortlessly be killed by the cannon, since he believed the fortress had already been taken, despite his adviser's words. When the enemy fleet started taking refuge in the fortress, he saw an opportunity to annihilate the fleet while it was retreating before it could enter the fortress. Then, Yang basically stepped on his pride by asking him to run away. He went berserk and flew to his death. Overall, it was a nice episode, although nothing special. But I really want to pit (equally - i.e., both of them commanding) Yang and Reinhard... that should be interesting. ^_^ |
| On contrary to some opinions, I wasn't bothered by this episode at all. Thor Hammer sure is powerful, I'm glad Yang's fleet didn't enjoy using it. Not surprised that Paul von Oberstein survived, it would've been pointless if he died so early, since he's a mysterious character who looks like can play an important part later in the OVA. |
 |
| Paul Von Oberstein is a very interesting character, i'm glad the commander was an idiot and told him to leave the ship. As for Yang giving the Rosen-Ritter a chance, I agree with Beatnik. Just because the ones before turned traitor doesn't mean these guys will. And, by the end of the episode, it's obvious there's a ton of respect for Yang there. It was a gamble, and Yang knew it, but it payed off. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| Well, about the lack of security on Iserlohn, I'd attribute that to pure hubris. After having the FPA throwing themselves against the fortress so many times without any result, they must have regarded themselves untouchable within the fortress, it coincides perfectly with the general decay and incompetence of the Imperial command structure. The fact that the Empire don't even officially acknowledge the FPA and just treat them as some border rebels they can go duke out with to score honour points doesn't help them taking the threat seriously. |
| Interesting episode. It was interesting to see Yang's reaction upon firing the Thor Hammer. I would be clutching at my chest too had I known that what I did was not fight the enemy, but essentially wipeout hundreds upon thousands of lives in one sweep. What really surprised me was the presence of a bar/red light district/city at Iserlohn. I figured since it was a fortress, the whole place should be as such. However, I totally didn't rule out the possibility of having civillians living there considering its long-standing impregnability. |
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| "Better die in the midst of battle rather than living in dishonour". Excuse me but I can't think of anyone who would think about this analogy in the middle of the battle. Nevertheless that commander in Iserlohn was extremely pathetic and non-trustworthy in his own man. A bit of non-belieavable scenes in this episode. But Yang keeps stealing the show, I just love him. |
Mikiyo said: Not in our societies today maybe. "Better die in the midst of battle rather than living in dishonour". Excuse me but I can't think of anyone who would think about this analogy in the middle of the battle. But countless people throughout history have done things like this in times of war. |
| I liked the episode, though it seemed far too easy for Yang to capture Iserlohn. I don't like though how (so far at least) the older officers are generally depicted as stupid or incompetent. I mean even if they are simply some noblemen who got their position through relations to the Kaiser or money they wouldn't survive their battles through luck alone in an ongoing war and especially wouldn't be assigned to something like Iserlohn if they didn't have a certain intelligence or knowledge of battle strategics. |
| "Truth is always a delusion." - Friedrich Dürrenmatt |
lr3t2 said: I mean even if they are simply some noblemen who got their position through relations to the Kaiser or money they wouldn't survive their battles through luck alone in an ongoing war and especially wouldn't be assigned to something like Iserlohn if they didn't have a certain intelligence or knowledge of battle strategics. You're underestimating the powers of nepotism and butt-licking. Plus: Bush Jr. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
| Besides, the brass, as incompetent they may be, seems to think of Iserlohn as impregnable, and with good reason, seeing the FPA's rather moronic past attempts to capture it, so they likely wouldn't be too worried even if they sent fools to hold it. |
| This episode was great, the best one so far. The brilliant, good-hearted young commander vs crotchety old guy who doesn't listen to his intelligent strategist scenario reminds me of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I thought the stupidity of the commanders of Iserlohn Fortress and the substandard security was pretty believable, considering that the Alliance got totally pwned by them 7 times in a row. If they're so convinced of their invincibility (and they've got a pretty good reason) it makes sense for them to become smug and lazy. Oh yeah and the Rosen Ritter kicking ass in hand to hand was just sweet. Who needs hi-tech lazers and blasters n stuff when you've got hand axes? |
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| Old, incompetent men as admirals making stupid decisions annoy me.. It seemed very easy capturing Iserlohn, but with those commanders in the fortress it's to be expected. |
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| the ep was good, tho it wasnt exciting, it was predictable that that old fart will refuse the advices of Oberstein XD damn Oberstein's design is kinda annoying xD he seems like a strong 'opponent' also.. i didnt liked him from the start >_> |
| Good episode, even with the points pointed beforehand. The major high points were Oberstein(same VA as Rei) and Schenkopp and the rest of the Rosen Ritter. Those guys are BADASS. |
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| I share the same complaints as the rest of the commenters. I think that the "supposedly brilliant tactician uses very basic tactics and incompetent veterans fall for it like fools" theme is wearing a bit thin. From what I've heard, this anime gets good sometime after episode 20, so I bet we will have a lot of this nonsense for a while to come. I still like it at the current point for some reason though, maybe it's just that the art feels nostalgic, or that the characters occasionally say pretty poetic things? I'm sticking with it, if for no other reason than I've stuck with lots worse without even the promise of being rewarded. |
| “Money can't buy dere” |
| this was actually an entertaining episode! not the best so far,but it was pretty good :-) but there are soooo many names,will i ever learn them,and they're long and hard to learn,damn... 4/5 |
Sayonara,papa! "Just how a mirror reflects you,people will also reflect your heart." ~Athena Glory,Aria "Whatever happens,happens" ~Spike Spiegel's thoughts on dying(Cowboy Bebop) |
| The look on everyone's face in the control room when the hammer was fired...just turned the whole thing around for me. What would have been a celebratiorary event in any other anime is turned into something quite sombre here. The maturity level on show here is extraordinary. |
| "Ah yes, the demon drink...'Nature's Alzheimer's' they call it" |
| Very jarring differences between scenes with the old and updated animation. Loads more blood too.. Like silly amount.. Great episode though, plot holes or not. |
| Many valid points in this thread. I, for one, think it was a bit unbelievable for them to capture the fortress. The Empire sure has some stuck up commanders. |
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| It might seem unbelievable, but infiltration under disguise was quite common in the world wars. A recent terrorist attack on a military base in my country was carried out in much the same way; bunch of people came in with the right clothes on and basically just wreaked mayhem inside the facility. Unbelievable, but perfectly realistic. |
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
| I have to agree with some of the people here. Yang Wenli in this episode and others in previous ones, fought against extremely simple minded opponents. They used oversimplistic, elementary tactics such as breaking formation and creating diversion to achieve victory. The reason their opponents fell for it, is because they were fools, totally lacking in any common sense. I can't share the sentiment of the fans of these series to call them geniuses, when I see them being compared to such hopeless idiots. However, it's the 7th of 110 episodes, so I really hope I'm speaking early and be proven wrong in the long run. But first impression is just as important and so far, it has failed to show me what I expected to see. So, what I wanna say is that I hope this shallow strategic depth won't become a trend in this anime, and that there will be serious challenges in the following episodes that I will feel uncertain of the outcome and surprised when it happens. |
| Signature? I ain't got no signature! I don't need no signature! I don't have to show you any stinkin' signature! |
| Well don't expect a tactical dissertation in an anime, but yeah the show's battles do get more complex later. The reason some opponents are portrayed the way they are is to highlight the corruption of the society they fight for, the nepotism, the brown-nosing, the lethargic manner in which everyone conducts themselves is indicative of the fatalistic attitude running throughout the military, basically barely anyone knows what the hell they're doing. Most of the people in powerful positions aren't there because they deserve to be. People like Yang Wenli are rare so when they enter battle they wipe the floor of enemies. Most of this is literally voiced by the comic relief characters who fly the fighter jets for the Alliance. |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
Beatnik said: Well don't expect a tactical dissertation in an anime, but yeah the show's battles do get more complex later. The reason some opponents are portrayed the way they are is to highlight the corruption of the society they fight for, the nepotism, the brown-nosing, the lethargic manner in which everyone conducts themselves is indicative of the fatalistic attitude running throughout the military, basically barely anyone knows what the hell they're doing. Most of the people in powerful positions aren't there because they deserve to be. People like Yang Wenli are rare so when they enter battle they wipe the floor of enemies. Most of this is literally voiced by the comic relief characters who fly the fighter jets for the Alliance. Sure, incompetent leaders born of a corrupt society, proving their uselessness in every turn of the way is not a far stretch of the plot. However, it's taken to such an extreme that's beyond my understanding. Take this episode for example. We're talking about a long lasting war, right? I don't remember if it's been said for how long did it last till that episode but there should have been enough battles by now to wipe out those who can't take a simple sensical decision to save their lives, let alone come up with a successful plan that would grant them victories. Yet the Iserlohn Fortress withstood six attacks of enemy fleets in "full strength" (as they've been compared to Wenli's Fleet being only at half strength), under the command of two completely incompetent idiots. And I can't help but wonder, just how idiotic were the previous attackers who failed to capture it? I mean who would lose to them, really? Trying to describe such a battle would surely be comedic. But anyway, I don't mean to bash this anime, well, besides this certain aspect. Cause other than that, it really lives up to the hype. It's not just about tactical space battles after all, and that's not the only reason I'm watching it for. |
| Signature? I ain't got no signature! I don't need no signature! I don't have to show you any stinkin' signature! |
kodial said: Sure, incompetent leaders born of a corrupt society, proving their uselessness in every turn of the way is not a far stretch of the plot. However, it's taken to such an extreme that's beyond my understanding. all you need to do to understand that is read history. Hell just read some newspapers. Political and military leaders by and large are extremely incompetent, especially in third world countries. you will not believe some of the mistakes leaders in my country have made, I'm not even in the mood to discuss it (my country's history is fucking depressing man!). I think in that the show reflects reality, although through the mirror of fiction of-course. Take this episode for example. We're talking about a long lasting war, right? I don't remember if it's been said for how long did it last till that episode but there should have been enough battles by now to wipe out those who can't take a simple sensical decision to save their lives, let alone come up with a successful plan that would grant them victories. more than a century of war, from what I recall. The war in lotgh is being fought across a whole galaxy, with casualties of millions in just one battle. If it was just a war between two countries, your point would've been valid (even then, there's the hundred years war fought between France and Britain, and the modern example of sudanese civil war which still being waged after 60 years), but here, we're talking about dozens of planets with their billions of soldiers on each side. Another thing is lotgh has its flaws, and how bad these flaws are depends on the viewer and his/her perspective. Dr Yoshiki Tanaka (writer of the novels) is a history enthusiast and has written on the subject I believe, but he is no military tactician. Like, people point out that battles in space should be 3 dimensional, not 2d on land, that too WWI style. Or how some of the tactics sound too simplistic or convenient. But I think these criticisms ignore the context and theme of lotgh, and the writers intentions/perspective. |
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
koreye said: Dr Yoshiki Tanaka (writer of the novels) is a history enthusiast and has written on the subject I believe, but he is no military tactician. Like, people point out that battles in space should be 3 dimensional, not 2d on land, that too WWI style. I was thinking about that, and how military leaders of the future would probably want to keep battles in 2d style in space, because otherwise you end up with Star Wars type mayhem completely lacking in tactical finesse. The human brain probably would have a hard time organising fleets in random angles, you would end up losing more ships than if you fought in 2d style, and military leaders are usually crusty old men with no imagination, thus future battles would look like historical fleets on the same horizontal plane. That's my defence of the author! |
"I'm starting to think mal is run by Xinil generating electricity on a bicycle." - idklol |
Beatnik said: koreye said: Dr Yoshiki Tanaka (writer of the novels) is a history enthusiast and has written on the subject I believe, but he is no military tactician. Like, people point out that battles in space should be 3 dimensional, not 2d on land, that too WWI style. I was thinking about that, and how military leaders of the future would probably want to keep battles in 2d style in space, because otherwise you end up with Star Wars type mayhem completely lacking in tactical finesse. The human brain probably would have a hard time organising fleets in random angles, you would end up losing more ships than if you fought in 2d style, and military leaders are usually crusty old men with no imagination, thus future battles would look like historical fleets on the same horizontal plane. That's my defence of the author! lol, you know that makes a lot of sense actually. I just don't get how battles can be done in 3d in a novel or an anime like that, I mean, those space battles in Star wars did not make any sense whatsoever to me. It was like PEW! PEW! BOOM! BOOM! It makes a lot more sense for battles in lotgh to be 2d the way it is, and not just because of the 'historical' inspired context of the show. It just makes the battles a whole lot more interesting and understandable. |
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
| But they do have 3d battles! It's that chess they're playing... |
| Signature? I ain't got no signature! I don't need no signature! I don't have to show you any stinkin' signature! |
| Amazing Episode 4.5/5 I'm looking forward to Paul's intentions |
| The only complaint for me is that Thor's Hammer feels like a cheap weapon. Otherwise this is great. |
| Loved it. Show keeps progressing itself in new and interesting ways. The tactics were....bloody simple. But it was enjoyable to watch. The infiltration team was awesome. Axe fights ftw. |
| The sad irony of this episode: if Stockhausen and Seeckt had switched places, Yang's plan would've gone very differently. Stockhausen valued life before honor and surrendered to the Rosen Ritters with no resistance, while Seeckt valued honor before life and allowed the Thor Hammer to tear through his fleet twice. It's very clear why the two men were at odds with each other. I love Schenkopp -- along with the rest of the Rosen Ritters -- and am glad to see he'll be returning later. And Oberstein...ever since his conversation with Siegfried I've been fascinated by him. |
| Hate to break it to people, but there really are military leaders this incompetent so I could relate to this in a way. Yang and Reinhard are special because they don't fight using outdated tactics and retarded traditional ideals of "honor". Having actually finished this series, I can also say that Yang totally deserves his many nicknames. That's about all I can say. Oh, and i want to reply to this: Luthimal said: and Yang still got too much praise for a simple plan that barely involved his own efforts. It's important to keep in mind that Truniht and the other politicians are actually playing Yang up as a hero. In other words, they are exaggerating his deeds and I'm quite sure he realizes this even himself. It's true that the Rosenritter did most of the work here. |
Ston3_FreeN7May 23, 2012 3:05 AM
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| i think this is the best episode so far |
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