| You would think its just innocent romance until you get a plot twist that turns out into bad romance and horror. Not for the timid, ill say. The main character started out good until latter on you want him dead. I personal enjoyed it cause of the romance, horror,and twist. But you can see how others would not. |
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lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: I think it's hated so much because that's the feeling you get at the end of it. It's not an anime where you think 'that was good' or 'that was crap.' I can only speak for myself when I say the feeling I got at the end was 'I hate that dick Makoto.' Really? I liked Makoto. He was somewhat of an ass but he's a character, not a person. A good character can be evil, while an evil person is just horrible. The problem I had is the anime mimics real life an awful lot. Nobody jumps around throwing fireballs, there's no epic war to save mankind etc. The (relative) normality of it humanizes the characters and that makes it much easier to hate them as a human rather than like them as a character. But that is just me. |
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| Play the visual novel. Get to be Makoto and make the decisions that you would have made compared to how the anime version of Makoto played out. If you want some kind of a happy-go-lucky story where the ending is just sunshine, lollipops,and rainbows, the visual novel might have that (I don't know for sure since I haven't played it). So my guess is that people wanted a happy ending and have Makoto make ideal decisions that would result in a love story with some drama in the middle but ends happily ever after. But instead, you got the womanizer version of Makoto and the show becomes a slow decent into madness. I fuckin' loved it, but most apparently don't, which is a bummer. That and, 'cmon. Higurashi is the second most popular recommendation for this anime with Elfen Lied taking the fifth slot. Foreshadowing like a motherfucker. |
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Jumpers123 said: The problem I had is the anime mimics real life an awful lot. Nobody jumps around throwing fireballs, there's no epic war to save mankind etc. The (relative) normality of it humanizes the characters and that makes it much easier to hate them as a human rather than like them as a character. But that is just me. But that was the intention. The intention was that Makotos do exist in the world, and if you try to harem in a realistic situation it doesn't work. FacelessVixen said: Play the visual novel. Get to be Makoto and make the decisions that you would have made compared to how the anime version of Makoto played out. If you want some kind of a happy-go-lucky story where the ending is just sunshine, lollipops,and rainbows, the visual novel might have that (I don't know for sure since I haven't played it). This is true. A lot of ending have drama but solve itself into a good ending.' FacelessVixen said: So my guess is that people wanted a happy ending and have Makoto make ideal decisions that would result in a love story with some drama in the middle but ends happily ever after. But instead, you got the womanizer version of Makoto and the show becomes a slow decent into madness. I fuckin' loved it, but most apparently don't, which is a bummer. People just can't handle change? Makoto was the opposite of the traditional "asexual" harem MC and you would think people would like this, but the reverse happened. |
| I'm glad that most people who've posted since I last did seem to be getting it. The guy above has it right when he says this is how a harem situation would really turn out. It's just a shame that for how many anime their are that are full with the same old cliches, the one show that does something completely different and unexpected gets the most hate. Their should be more shows like this that have the guts to do something different than have the same happy ending. |
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lazyboy0337 said: FacelessVixen said: So my guess is that people wanted a happy ending and have Makoto make ideal decisions that would result in a love story with some drama in the middle but ends happily ever after. But instead, you got the womanizer version of Makoto and the show becomes a slow decent into madness. I fuckin' loved it, but most apparently don't, which is a bummer. People just can't handle change? Makoto was the opposite of the traditional "asexual" harem MC and you would think people would like this, but the reverse happened. I suppose. I for one watched this anime knowing that it goes dark at a certain point, and it was kinda like I was waiting to see when and how that goes down. Looking at the synopsis (which just merely describes the first episode), maybe that could be rewritten in a way that suggests or lightly foreshadows that this isn't one of those happy-go-lucky love stories from beginning to end. Maybe if more people knew that from the start, more people would have enjoyed this, or at least have more people that are drawn to tragic love stories on board than those who like the traditional love story. |
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scabab said: I'm glad that most people who've posted since I last did seem to be getting it. The guy above has it right when he says this is how a harem situation would really turn out. It's just a shame that for how many anime their are that are full with the same old cliches, the one show that does something completely different and unexpected gets the most hate. Their should be more shows like this that have the guts to do something different than have the same happy ending. How many highschool guys form harems realistically? And, of those, how many end up the way Makoto does? Don't get me wrong though, I like School Days as an anime. You just can't help but loathe the characters actions. |
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| How is School Days realistic? Everyone wants to sleep with Makoto for some reason even though he hasn't got anything going for him, where's the realism in that? What normal person would take the shit that Kotonoha did, yet still want to be with Makoto? Why is every 15 year old girl such a huge slut? Everybody in School Days is a prick, that doesn't mean it's realistic. |
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| I get the purpose of this show, what I don't get is the moral and social disfunctionality of Makoto, a la "fuck every girl, who cares, just fuck them", and the fact every one of those girls end up being just legs that are magically opened when Mankoto's dick salutes them. I guess it's required to tell this story but I can't really buy it just for the sake of the experiment. I also appreciate the guts of the last episode (pun intended), but it's not even that much of an accomplishment in the medium. It's an excessive move that fits well with an excessive anime, that's about it. |
spyrocoot said: How is School Days realistic? I'll break it down spyrocoot said: Everyone wants to sleep with Makoto for some reason even though he hasn't got anything going for him, where's the realism in that? Kotonoha: She was bullied and beaten down her entire life and when Makoto shows up and becomes her first friend she was ecstatic. Setsuna: Makoto saved her from bullies at the graduation ceremony and motivated her to be student president. Sekai: Her and Setsuna discussed Makoto's good points and started to fall for him. Otome: She knew Makoto in middle school. Nothing else is really said but it works. Hikori/Trio: You win here in that they got nothing. They're just sluts. Makoto is described to be somewhat handsome, so there is that. spyrocoot said: What normal person would take the shit that Kotonoha did, yet still want to be with Makoto? Nobody, but Kotonoha isn't a normal person. She was bullied and left with nobody, so she cling to Makoto to be her sanity point. spyrocoot said: Why is every 15 year old girl such a huge slut? Everybody in School Days is a prick, that doesn't mean it's realistic. But it kind of does. For as many nice guys and pure maidens there are in the world, there are also pricks and sluts. You can't deny this. |
| The problem is not that everybody is a prick, the problem is that they are the tuned out types of prick, I wouldn't care about hating them if that was the purpose but I couldn't because they didn't transmit me anything. They didn't even have a differentiable personality. Makoto for example was very damaged by the fact we never get to really know his thought processes through his sperm delivery adventure. |
| @lazyboy Makoto is a one-dimensional character that is only described as being fairly attractive. He fucks anyone and everyone just for the sake of it, putting their thoughts and feelings aside. He's just an asshole, it's impossible to justify why so many of the girls in this series wanted him. With Kotonoha, you can initially understand why she liked Makoto. However, it was made clear from the second episode that Makoto only viewed her as an object for his sexual desires. He tosses her aside up until around the last episode while he has sex with every other girl in the school. Yet, she still embraces him. No girl, regardless of how traumatic their past is, would do that. Sekai was required to be interested in Makoto for the sake of moving the plot along, the reasons why she was so obsessed with him weren't really addressed. That bullshit about how she and Setsuna discussed his good points is not an adequate explanation. Why she maintained interest in him despite all the other girls he was fucking at the same time is beyond me. Setsuna's reasoning is slightly better, because you're actually shown Makoto defending her, but it's still quite ridiculous. Is she oblivious to the fact that Makoto had already had sex with every other girl in the school year? You'd think she, or one of the many other female students would've caught on, but no, they are all incredibly stupid. It's made worse by the fact that Makoto was in a relationship with Sekai at the time, who was supposed to be her best friend. "Otome: She knew Makoto in middle school. Nothing else is really said but it works". No, it doesn't. You could just as well use that for any character. "But it kind of does. For as many nice guys and pure maidens there are in the world, there are also pricks and sluts. You can't deny this". You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. The only thing that School Days managed to do well was give me a hard-on with Kotonoha's tits bouncing all over the screen, that's it. jal90 said: The problem is not that everybody is a prick, the problem is that they are the tuned out types of prick, I wouldn't care about hating them if that was the purpose but I couldn't because they didn't transmit me anything. They didn't even have a differentiable personality. Makoto for example was very damaged by the fact we never get to really know his thought processes through his sperm delivery adventure. That's a huge issue with School Days. I hate Asuka from NGE with a passion, and I don't particularly like Shinji either, but at least you could understand WHY they acted the way they did. Everyone in School Days seemed to be pricks for the sake of being pricks, the reasons for their actions were never really explained. |
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| I was going to argue back your point but this happened. spyrocoot said: You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. You lost your credibility and gave me a good laugh. I mean really, how is Azumanga a much better "realistic" highschool than School Days? I should be asking if YOU have been to highschool. Are you really trying to tell me that an anime about jealousy and lust is less realistic than an anime about funny girls doing funny things with a ten year old and a flying talking cat? You could easily find enough real life Makotos, but would sturggle to find a genki like Tomo that is actually likable and not annoying as hell. |
lazyboy0337 said: I was going to argue back your point but this happened. spyrocoot said: You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. You lost your credibility and gave me a good laugh. I mean really, how is Azumanga a much better "realistic" highschool than School Days? I should be asking if YOU have been to highschool. Are you really trying to tell me that an anime about jealousy and lust is less realistic than an anime about funny girls doing funny things with a ten year old and a flying talking cat? You could easily find enough real life Makotos, but would sturggle to find a genki like Tomo that is actually likable and not annoying as hell. *checks your list* *has School Days rated 10/10* Oh... Azumanga Daioh is hilarious and it reminds me of when I was in high school. Preparing for exams, sports days, trips with the school abroad, etc. Tomo is annoying and the least likable out of the group, but she's still a fun character. I also happen to personally know someone just like her (although she isn't as energetic), so it's not that hard. I don't know anyone as selfish as Makoto, however. The idea of Chiyo being in highschool isn't supposed to be realistic, it's an over-exaggeration which I found hilarious. I find their experiences coupled with the characters far more realistic than School Days, but if you don't like it then that's fine. Oh, and the "I was going to argue back until..." point is usually something someone resort to when they know full well that they don't have any adequate counterpoints. |
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lazyboy0337 said: I was going to argue back your point but this happened. spyrocoot said: You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. You lost your credibility and gave me a good laugh. I mean really, how is Azumanga a much better "realistic" highschool than School Days? I should be asking if YOU have been to highschool. Are you really trying to tell me that an anime about jealousy and lust is less realistic than an anime about funny girls doing funny things with a ten year old and a flying talking cat? You could easily find enough real life Makotos, but would sturggle to find a genki like Tomo that is actually likable and not annoying as hell. No amount of lust justifies Makoto's actions. There is being a playboy and then there is being cruel. |
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Jumpers123 said: No amount of lust justifies Makoto's actions. There is being a playboy and then there is being cruel. Pimpin' ain't easy. |
lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: No amount of lust justifies Makoto's actions. There is being a playboy and then there is being cruel. Pimpin' ain't easy. What started as pimpin' descended into psychological torture to satisfy Makoto who clearly couldn't give a rats ass about any of them. If he did care, the entire plot would never have even happened. He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. |
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Jumpers123 said: He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. Yes! Thank you for this! Makoto may be a bad person, but is an interesting character that doesn't deserve his hate. |
lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. Yes! Thank you for this! Makoto may be a bad person, but is an interesting character that doesn't deserve his hate. What makes him interesting? He's extremely one dimensional and doesn't receive any character development. |
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spyrocoot said: lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. Yes! Thank you for this! Makoto may be a bad person, but is an interesting character that doesn't deserve his hate. What makes him interesting? He's extremely one dimensional and doesn't receive any character development. Well he doesn't deserve to be loved that's for sure. And he's a different enough harem (??) lead to make him an interesting character. He knows what he wants and he goes for it. Unfortunately he doesn't give a flying f*ck about who he hurts along the way. |
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Jumpers123 said: spyrocoot said: lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. Yes! Thank you for this! Makoto may be a bad person, but is an interesting character that doesn't deserve his hate. What makes him interesting? He's extremely one dimensional and doesn't receive any character development. Well he doesn't deserve to be loved that's for sure. And he's a different enough harem (??) lead to make him an interesting character. He knows what he wants and he goes for it. Unfortunately he doesn't give a flying f*ck about who he hurts along the way. He's a unique lead in the sense that you're supposed to hate him, but the reasons as to why he goes around fucking anyone and everyone with complete disregard for other people's feelings isn't explained. Why does he do it? |
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spyrocoot said: He's a unique lead in the sense that you're supposed to hate him, but the reasons as to why he goes around fucking anyone and everyone with complete disregard for other people's feelings isn't explained. Why does he do it? He's a highschool boy and girls are throwing themselves at him. It isn't a riddle why he goes for it. |
spyrocoot said: Jumpers123 said: spyrocoot said: lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. Yes! Thank you for this! Makoto may be a bad person, but is an interesting character that doesn't deserve his hate. What makes him interesting? He's extremely one dimensional and doesn't receive any character development. Well he doesn't deserve to be loved that's for sure. And he's a different enough harem (??) lead to make him an interesting character. He knows what he wants and he goes for it. Unfortunately he doesn't give a flying f*ck about who he hurts along the way. He's a unique lead in the sense that you're supposed to hate him, but the reasons as to why he goes around fucking anyone and everyone with complete disregard for other people's feelings isn't explained. Why does he do it? He likes sex? Idk, I guess because he can is the most probable answer. The fact he does shows him to be an extremely selfish person with either no understanding or no care for others' emotions. Lets face it, you offer a teenage guy the chance to sleep with five or six women when he has no patience and is stuck in a relationship where he is sexually frustrated he'd probably take it. |
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lazyboy0337 said: spyrocoot said: He's a unique lead in the sense that you're supposed to hate him, but the reasons as to why he goes around fucking anyone and everyone with complete disregard for other people's feelings isn't explained. Why does he do it? He's a highschool boy and girls are throwing themselves at him. It isn't a riddle why he goes for it. Therein lies the problem. WHY are all these girls throwing themselves at him despite being such a prick? I mean, surely they would've caught on to him after the first few girls, but no, they're completely oblivious. Plus, why is he so selfish towards all the girls? They are all treated as sex objects, rather than people. Jumpers123 said: He likes sex? Idk, I guess because he can is the most probable answer. The fact he does shows him to be an extremely selfish person with either no understanding or no care for others' emotions. Lets face it, you offer a teenage guy the chance to sleep with five or six women when he has no patience and is stuck in a relationship where he is sexually frustrated he'd probably take it. He was sexually frustrated in the beginning because Kotonoha didn't want to have sex with him, but he then went on to have sex with everyone. He didn't consider anyone's emotions at all. |
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lazyboy0337 said: I was going to argue back your point but this happened. spyrocoot said: You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. You lost your credibility and gave me a good laugh. I mean really, how is Azumanga a much better "realistic" highschool than School Days? I should be asking if YOU have been to highschool. Are you really trying to tell me that an anime about jealousy and lust is less realistic than an anime about funny girls doing funny things with a ten year old and a flying talking cat? You could easily find enough real life Makotos, but would sturggle to find a genki like Tomo that is actually likable and not annoying as hell. Oh man, here it comes :D First and firemost, Azumanga is not realistic. School Days isn't either. They are both stylistic exaggerations. However, that aside the characterization in one very easily exceeds the other, because the girls in Azumanga think about what they do, their future, the time they spend together, the passing of time, the stress of their high school exams; that is, the situations they are exposed at. This makes the characters more down-to-earth even when they are strongly idealized in their premise... In School Days we have Makoto and the girls just acting, in a totally lifeless and brainless way, they are there for the sake of exploitation. When things turn progressively more difficult, they still behave in the same way, I remember when Makoto seemed to start being aware of his situation with Kotonoha and this became just instantly forgotten when another girl appeared and opened her legs for him. The manga makes a much better work at adapting the School Days storyline and making it believable, simply because we are exposed to his thoughts and can understand his reactions (it also helps that the only girls in the equation are Sekai and Kotonoha, instead of every juicy vagina in the school). |
jal90 said: lazyboy0337 said: I was going to argue back your point but this happened. spyrocoot said: You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. You lost your credibility and gave me a good laugh. I mean really, how is Azumanga a much better "realistic" highschool than School Days? I should be asking if YOU have been to highschool. Are you really trying to tell me that an anime about jealousy and lust is less realistic than an anime about funny girls doing funny things with a ten year old and a flying talking cat? You could easily find enough real life Makotos, but would sturggle to find a genki like Tomo that is actually likable and not annoying as hell. Oh man, here it comes :D First and firemost, Azumanga is not realistic. School Days isn't either. They are both stylistic exaggerations. However, that aside the characterization in one very easily exceeds the other, because the girls in Azumanga think about what they do, their future, the time they spend together, the passing of time, the stress of their high school exams; that is, the situations they are exposed at. This makes the characters more down-to-earth even when they are strongly idealized in their premise... In School Days we have Makoto and the girls just acting, in a totally lifeless and brainless way, they are there for the sake of exploitation. When things turn progressively more difficult, they still behave in the same way, I remember when Makoto seemed to start being aware of his situation with Kotonoha and this became just instantly forgotten when another girl appeared and opened her legs for him. The manga makes a much better work at adapting the School Days storyline and making it believable, simply because we are exposed to his thoughts and can understand his reactions (it also helps that the only girls in the equation are Sekai and Kotonoha, instead of every juicy vagina in the school). The characters themselves (such as Chiyo and her father) may be unrealistic, but their experiences and activities are not and it felt somewhat nostalgic watching it. |
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spyrocoot said: lazyboy0337 said: spyrocoot said: He's a unique lead in the sense that you're supposed to hate him, but the reasons as to why he goes around fucking anyone and everyone with complete disregard for other people's feelings isn't explained. Why does he do it? He's a highschool boy and girls are throwing themselves at him. It isn't a riddle why he goes for it. Therein lies the problem. WHY are all these girls throwing themselves at him despite being such a prick? I mean, surely they would've caught on to him after the first few girls, but no, they're completely oblivious. Plus, why is he so selfish towards all the girls? They are all treated as sex objects, rather than people. There are some people who are like that though. Why is he so selfish? Because he can be. He knows he doesn't need to treat the girls with any respect because they'll be another around the corner, like your typical run-of-the-mill pimp. |
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spyrocoot said: Therein lies the problem. WHY are all these girls throwing themselves at him despite being such a prick? I mean, surely they would've caught on to him after the first few girls, but no, they're completely oblivious. Plus, why is he so selfish towards all the girls? They are all treated as sex objects, rather than people. I said why the girls wanted Makoto before, and even if you don't like it those are the reasons. And Makoto is starts to get selfish because he knows that if one girl leaves, he has another to fall back on. Notice how much more selfish Makoto got as he got more girls, and how he reflects back on himself as being a douche after everybody leaves him in episode 11. |
spyrocoot said: lazyboy0337 said: I was going to argue back your point but this happened. spyrocoot said: You've gone through highschool, right? There are some slutty girls and some "players", but School Days is an over-the-top exaggeration to the point where it becomes highly unrealistic. There is not a single character in the series with redeemable qualities, they are all scumbags. If you want a more realistic portrayal of highschool in anime, then Azumanga Daioh is a much better alternative. You lost your credibility and gave me a good laugh. I mean really, how is Azumanga a much better "realistic" highschool than School Days? I should be asking if YOU have been to highschool. Are you really trying to tell me that an anime about jealousy and lust is less realistic than an anime about funny girls doing funny things with a ten year old and a flying talking cat? You could easily find enough real life Makotos, but would sturggle to find a genki like Tomo that is actually likable and not annoying as hell. *checks your list* *has School Days rated 10/10* Oh... Azumanga Daioh is hilarious and it reminds me of when I was in high school. Preparing for exams, sports days, trips with the school abroad, etc. Tomo is annoying and the least likable out of the group, but she's still a fun character. I also happen to personally know someone just like her (although she isn't as energetic), so it's not that hard. I don't know anyone as selfish as Makoto, however. The idea of Chiyo being in highschool isn't supposed to be realistic, it's an over-exaggeration which I found hilarious. I find their experiences coupled with the characters far more realistic than School Days, but if you don't like it then that's fine. Oh, and the "I was going to argue back until..." point is usually something someone resort to when they know full well that they don't have any adequate counterpoints. Azumanga Daioh is anything but hilarious, infact it was hardly funny at all and it was supposed to be a comedy. All the characters filled your usual anime stereotype, they weren't original and had no character development. There was no story and nothing ever happened in the show because it was all episodic. Now School Rumble on the other hand got it right, Azumanga Daioh was terrible. |
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spyrocoot said: lazyboy0337 said: Jumpers123 said: He isn't a bad character, he's just a bad person. Yes! Thank you for this! Makoto may be a bad person, but is an interesting character that doesn't deserve his hate. What makes him interesting? He's extremely one dimensional and doesn't receive any character development. He's interesting because he's original which can not be said for 9/10 anime characters. Out of all the characters I've seen not one has been like Makoto. Of all the cliche high school rom coms I've seen there hasn't been one that involved a guy who at first liked a girl then decide to be with another girl who puts out. Your usual anime tries to play it safe and have likable characters which is what leads to the cliches. School Days is different because it took a 180 and made a fairy humble guy turn into a spiteful sexaholic. This anime took a chnace by doing something different for once. In real life there are nice people who change into dicks. |
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scabab said: Azumanga Daioh is anything but hilarious, infact it was hardly funny at all and it was supposed to be a comedy. All the characters filled your usual anime stereotype, they weren't original and had no character development. There was no story and nothing ever happened in the show because it was all episodic. Now School Rumble on the other hand got it right, Azumanga Daioh was terrible. Azumanga Daioh is a very slow paced episodic anime, so obviously it isn't for everyone, but to say it didn't have a story is just wrong. The premise behind Azumanga Daioh was to follow the girls' highschool experiences up until their graduation. Either way, my point remains that it is a more realistic portrayal of high school. If you liked School Days for the psychological aspects or the bloody ending, then I'd be glad to recommend better alternatives. scabab said: He's interesting because he's original which can not be said for 9/10 anime characters. Out of all the characters I've seen not one has been like Makoto. Of all the cliche high school rom coms I've seen there hasn't been one that involved a guy who at first liked a girl then decide to be with another girl who puts out. Your usual anime tries to play it safe and have likable characters which is what leads to the cliches. School Days is different because it took a 180 and made a fairy humble guy turn into a spiteful sexaholic. This anime took a chnace by doing something different for once. In real life there are nice people who change into dicks. He wasn't nice to begin with, just sexually frustrated. That was made clear from around episode two. The problem with Makoto is that School Days tried to be realistic when it isn't. I've never heard of or seen anyone as selfish as Makoto. He had sex with anything and anyone with complete disregard for their feelings. You aren't given any insight into his character, so you're unable to understand his actions. Makoto isn't so much a character as he is a plot device. |
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scabab said: Azumanga Daioh is anything but hilarious, infact it was hardly funny at all and it was supposed to be a comedy. All the characters filled your usual anime stereotype, they weren't original and had no character development. There was no story and nothing ever happened in the show because it was all episodic. Now School Rumble on the other hand got it right, Azumanga Daioh was terrible. Hey, I'm all into turning this thread into an Azumanga discussion thread, whatever, it would be more interesting than discussing the depth of some random crazy story about fucked up teens and their fucked up view of romance. If you think there's no character development in the series, just take the last 6-7 episodes, which cover their last year and show them caring about their life decisions, the exams... Heck, episode 19 alone puts more effort on character development and putting them in context than the whole School days experience. Or Chiyo who goes from an easily-impressed kid to making sarcastic remarks at Tomo's stupidity. Or Sakaki's Greek tragedy with cats. Or the last scene of the 7th episode with the characters going all depressed about their future. I'd say, for a show that is based on stereotypes; basic and exaggerated character traits for the sake of comedy, there's a hell lot of development and a very obvious feel of time passing. |
jal90Jun 4, 2013 6:41 AM
jal90 said: scabab said: Azumanga Daioh is anything but hilarious, infact it was hardly funny at all and it was supposed to be a comedy. All the characters filled your usual anime stereotype, they weren't original and had no character development. There was no story and nothing ever happened in the show because it was all episodic. Now School Rumble on the other hand got it right, Azumanga Daioh was terrible. Hey, I'm all into turning this thread into an Azumanga discussion thread, whatever, it would be more interesting than discussing the depth of some random crazy story about fucked up teens and their fucked up view of romance. If you think there's no character development in the series, just take the last 6-7 episodes, which cover their last year and show them caring about their life decisions, the exams... Heck, episode 19 alone puts more effort on character development than the whole School days experience. Or Chiyo who goes from an easily-impressed kid to making witty remarks at Tomo's stupidity. Or Sakaki's Greek tragedy with cats. Or the last scene of the 7th episode with the characters going all depressed about their future. I'd say, for a show that is based on stereotypes; basic and exaggerated character traits for the sake of comedy, there's a hell lot of development and a very obvious feel of time passing. What jal90 said. Chiyo's development especially was very nice. |
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| Not to mention episodes focused entirely on showing the point of view of one character. The 12th with Chiyo, the 9th with Sakaki... Which focus a lot on confronting them with their environment. |
| I'm going to reroute this nice boat back to the discussion. spyrocoot said: He wasn't nice to begin with, just sexually frustrated. That was made clear from around episode two. The problem with Makoto is that School Days tried to be realistic when it isn't. I've never heard of or seen anyone as selfish as Makoto. He had sex with anything and anyone with complete disregard for their feelings. You aren't given any insight into his character, so you're unable to understand his actions. Makoto isn't so much a character as he is a plot device. Just remember that Makoto started as one of us: a shy boy in high school with a crush. He is very realistic in that he acted selfishly for himself, a trait everyone has. His character is just another ordinary person that took opportunities for himself. Understanding Makoto is just viewing the situation and thinking "Now how can I benefit?". |
| But this depiction of life you mention is incredibly partial, one-sided, usually people are not 100% selfish or 100% unaware of stuff that happens around them. School days goes to these kinds of extremes with Makoto, to the point that to spyrocoot and me is not likeable, relatable or even comprehensible anymore. This series could have been great because it has a very interesting premise deconstructing a common clichéd genre. The problem is that this deconstruction is not used to make characters more fleshed out and complex, which was certainly the way that looked more promising. Just out of curiosity and going off topic, a similar argument is usually brought around a French movie, Irreversible, which takes pleasure on showing and exploiting suburban violence and is wrongly praised -in my opinion- because "reality is that crude". |
jal90 said: But this depiction of life you mention is incredibly partial, one-sided, usually people are not 100% selfish or 100% unaware of stuff that happens around them. School days goes to these kinds of extremes with Makoto, to the point that to spyrocoot and me is not likeable, relatable or even comprehensible anymore. This series could have been great because it has a very interesting premise deconstructing a common clichéd genre. The problem is that this deconstruction is not used to make characters more fleshed out and complex, which was certainly the way that looked more promising. Just out of curiosity and going off topic, a similar argument is usually brought around a French movie, Irreversible, which takes pleasure on showing and exploiting suburban violence and is wrongly praised -in my opinion- because "reality is that crude". When I finished School Days, I was pissed off for three days straight. I have yet to feel more hatred than I did back then for Makoto. I thought this kind of scum does not deserve to be born into this world. I was glad he got judged in the end. But after putting lots of thought in it, I do not believe that he is a 100% selfish or 100% evil person. I think his greatest fault is being 'too weak'. He was just a shy, perverted high school boy. He managed to get a girlfriend but the relationship kinda didn't progress well, so he had an affair (Yes, that happens in real life as well). That's rather selfish, but far from 100%. The problem is what came after that. Other girls suddenly started flinging themselves at him. That's where the situation became 'too much' for him, so he went with the flow. And so his transformation was complete. His good traits degraded because he had no use for them. Playing around with different girls became natural, so he did not question it. Other people's feelings, morals were things he couldn't handle, so he evaded them. Then, one day, Sekai proclaimed to be pregnant. Now try to place yourself in the guy's shoes. Most males who are confronted with such a situation would definitely think of somehow running away from the responsibility. It takes a strong person with a sense of duty to be able to overcome one's fears and face the situation because ' it's the right thing to do '. Makoto was not one of them. (That being said, I still hate his guts) So rather than the characters being one-sided, I think they were simply too weak to handle the situation and thus got crushed by it. They couldn't show any complexity because they did not overcome their problems. Most anime's main cast are amazing in one way or the other. They face the challenges before them and grow by overcoming them. But what if they are too weak? What if they do NOT overcome them? Such people exist as well and there are way more of them than the 'strong' kind. That is cruel reality. Not everyone is a winner. |
Naoki-SatenJun 4, 2013 2:31 PM
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| I have to rewatch the show anyway. To make it clear, I didn't hate it, but felt that there was a lot more they could have done with the idea. You say that the characters are too weak to handle the situation and I might agree. The problem is, there is not an external environment, nor something that is influencing their mood besides themselves, therefore I can't differentiate both as two clear and isolated parts of the equation. The characters create the situation and the situation builds the characters. I can admit that Makoto is weak-willed and just decides to go with the flow, but that doesn't mean alone that the character is allowed to veer to extremes; and here comes what I said before. You can say that Makoto is not 100% selfish based on that interpretation, but in the end, you are replacing the factor. Being 100% selfish and 100% weak or passive are alternative versions of the same problem. The issue here is that I don't get a full, interesting or compelling character from Makoto because his reaction diagram becomes exaggerated to the point that he is a tool instead of a character. Instead of being portrayed as more or less complex and/or relatable, he is used to represent an idea or a set of ideas. That if I don't take into account the nature of that situation, because as said, it comes from the characters themselves. That is, Makoto can just decide to go with the flow and get laid with every girl, the issue being that every girl will be portrayed as an oversimplified picture of lust for our lucky playboy. In these terms the storyline is still going in circles: schematic characters drive to overdone situations that drive to schematic characters. I mentioned the manga some posts before because, despite it doesn't choose to take the harem route (maybe I just have a problem with the stereotypes of this genre and that is blinding my judgement), it does talk about the issue of infidelity with the main love triangle and arguably in a more effective way; the main characters preserve their way of acting, but they have a focus on thought processes that I missed in the anime. To me, that would be closer to an ideal depiction of the conflict this show delivers. The characters are still extreme, but they do show a linear development, get some focus on how do they suffer through the situations (instead of just seeing them acting) and you can get to understand them. |
jal90Jun 4, 2013 2:55 PM
| bcuz bitches and hoes |
| I am important. I have a girlfriend. Check out my podcast |
| Never watched/read it, but a 7 sounds incredibly high for an elitist infested sight that is MAL inb4asking. recent posts, deal with it. |
| sexual incest in nisomonogatari - no one bats an eye romance incest in SAO - everyone loses their minds |
| The right rating is 6, because it's a show about sex. Anyway a 7 in MAL equals to extremely below average and worthless, maybe if it had an 8. |
jal90 said: I can admit that Makoto is weak-willed and just decides to go with the flow, but that doesn't mean alone that the character is allowed to veer to extremes; and here comes what I said before. You can say that Makoto is not 100% selfish based on that interpretation, but in the end, you are replacing the factor. Being 100% selfish and 100% weak or passive are alternative versions of the same problem. The issue here is that I don't get a full, interesting or compelling character from Makoto because his reaction diagram becomes exaggerated to the point that he is a tool instead of a character. Instead of being portrayed as more or less complex and/or relatable, he is used to represent an idea or a set of ideas. That if I don't take into account the nature of that situation, because as said, it comes from the characters themselves. That is, Makoto can just decide to go with the flow and get laid with every girl, the issue being that every girl will be portrayed as an oversimplified picture of lust for our lucky playboy. In these terms the storyline is still going in circles: schematic characters drive to overdone situations that drive to schematic characters. There aren't many people who manage to impress me with just 2 posts. You may feel praised. It makes sense. No matter if it's 'too selfish', 'too ignorant', or 'too passive' - in the end it all amounts to 'too schematic' and 'one-sided'. Which means the characters fail to offer proper entertainment or allow the viewer to relate to them. So the characters are not one of 'School Days' strong points. However: I wonder if the audience would be able to hate them to such an extent if they were more complex? In order to like the characters (and most of the time, the story as well), you have to be able to relate to them. Otherwise you'll feel that something's missing and your overall impression of the show will be dulled. But on the flip side it means you can't truly hate a character if you can relate to him. For example: If Makoto wasn't a selfish, sex-obsessed playboy and instead tried to maintain his harem out of foolish desire 'to not hurt anyone' by deciding on a single girlfriend, the base of his haters would decrease by about 90%. Certainly, we would ridicule his foolishness, we would blame him for being shallow and look down at him because his weakness and half-assedness in fact adds to the suffering he's trying to reduce. But we would not hate him, at least not as much as we do now. Or better yet: What if Makoto realized that his sexual desires are in fact too great for him to satuate so he continues to play around with other girls BUT at the same time, also realizes his sincere love for Kotonoha and swears to take good care of her, to devote himself to her outside of his games and to keep her pure. (This is merely an example, so you are free to interchange Kotonoha with any other girl if you remove the 'pure' part) That kind of Makoto would never receive the amount of hatred he does now. As you can see, a more complex character is way more likable. And maybe that's the whole point of it. Because the reason I liked School days is that it invoked rage inside me that I never thought I'd be capable of. It managed to provoke an extremely strong emotion inside me. Pure and fierce hatred towards Makoto and certain heroines (Well, there was also a lot of pity towards Kotonoha). In my opinion, the strongest point of School Days is the hatred that the audience feels towards some of the characters. It is, however, also a double-edged sword. Many people misunderstand the issue by concluding: felt hatred -> negative feeling -> bad show. |
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Naoki-Saten said: For example: If Makoto wasn't a selfish, sex-obsessed playboy and instead tried to maintain his harem out of foolish desire 'to not hurt anyone' by deciding on a single girlfriend, the base of his haters would decrease by about 90%. Certainly, we would ridicule his foolishness, we would blame him for being shallow and look down at him because his weakness and half-assedness in fact adds to the suffering he's trying to reduce. But we would not hate him, at least not as much as we do now. Or better yet: What if Makoto realized that his sexual desires are in fact too great for him to satuate so he continues to play around with other girls BUT at the same time, also realizes his sincere love for Kotonoha and swears to take good care of her, to devote himself to her outside of his games and to keep her pure. (This is merely an example, so you are free to interchange Kotonoha with any other girl if you remove the 'pure' part) That kind of Makoto would never receive the amount of hatred he does now. You forgot the one thing: that wouldn't be Makoto. That would be a standard harem MC. School Day's niche is that Makoto is a sex god and how that would work IRL. If Makoto tried to not hurt anybody and keep the harem in check, we just have another Tomoya or Rin. I'm not calling them bad, but Makoto is the parallel opposite of these characters, and that is his appeal. |
lazyboy0337 said: You forgot the one thing: that wouldn't be Makoto. That would be a standard harem MC. School Day's niche is that Makoto is a sex god and how that would work IRL. If Makoto tried to not hurt anybody and keep the harem in check, we just have another Tomoya or Rin. I'm not calling them bad, but Makoto is the parallel opposite of these characters, and that is his appeal. Well, that's the side effect of it: Besides not being as hatable anymore, Makoto would lose his uniqueness among all Harem protagonists. And that, in turn, would bend the whole concept of School Days Anime: Deconstruction of Harem genre. I'm only using Makoto as an example, but at the time, I'm really having a hard time finding ANY kind of character complexity among any of the main characters that would NOT bend the concept of the series. The tragedy of School Days is the sum of all character's actions. There weren't any outside factors involved. If any of the relevant characters were more complex, 'more decent' or 'less stupid', the impact of the ending would lessen. And whether or not the irrelevant characters show complexity or not doesn't change anything, the overall impression of the series included. Remember how the ponytail girl distanced herself from Makoto around the end due to him being such a douche? Nobody cared about that anymore. So what if that girl was more complex than the rest? She didn't make a difference because she wasn't important anymore at that point. |
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| Whoa man, thanks for your kind words =). Now into the stuff: Naoki-Saten said: However: I wonder if the audience would be able to hate them to such an extent if they were more complex? In order to like the characters (and most of the time, the story as well), you have to be able to relate to them. Otherwise you'll feel that something's missing and your overall impression of the show will be dulled. But on the flip side it means you can't truly hate a character if you can relate to him. For example: If Makoto wasn't a selfish, sex-obsessed playboy and instead tried to maintain his harem out of foolish desire 'to not hurt anyone' by deciding on a single girlfriend, the base of his haters would decrease by about 90%. Certainly, we would ridicule his foolishness, we would blame him for being shallow and look down at him because his weakness and half-assedness in fact adds to the suffering he's trying to reduce. But we would not hate him, at least not as much as we do now. I can talk about my case and say that I didn't hate Makoto because there wasn't a personal relation to his story. Whether it works or not for the rest of the audience depends on a lot of factors or even on the expectancies the show brings; I'm not expecting the same kind of character focus in all shows so the reasons to my disappointment in School days could lead to an absolute success in a different show and context. On the other hand, I don't disagree with your statement about hate being conditioned in that way, the hatred that comes from incomprehension of the equally human nature of the character, but it's not really the only strategy. You can show hatred for a character in the way of relating to them, that is, when their portrayal throws concepts that relate to your own flaws and the aspects you dislike the most about your personality. In fact Makoto's concept goes more around this second term (a weak-willed, selfish, unable to have an active role in whatever thing he is involved at) than the first, at least for me. What seems clear is that if we consider Makoto as a character who was designed to be hated for story reasons, he works well with the audience. That also explains why this show doesn't work for me because my feelings for Makoto as a character in his context are more in the verge of pure indifference; what I hate is the execution that leads to this. Naoki-Saten said: Because the reason I liked School days is that it invoked rage inside me that I never thought I'd be capable of. It managed to provoke an extremely strong emotion inside me. Pure and fierce hatred towards Makoto and certain heroines (Well, there was also a lot of pity towards Kotonoha). In my opinion, the strongest point of School Days is the hatred that the audience feels towards some of the characters. It is, however, also a double-edged sword. Many people misunderstand the issue by concluding: felt hatred -> negative feeling -> bad show. Agreed. In fact I would be praising the show if it had invoked those kinds of feelings on me. |
| I enjoyed it. Still more enjoyable than Rosario x Vampire |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Makoto. The end. |
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Ghostony said: u wot m8? MAL scores incredibly highly.Never watched/read it, but a 7 sounds incredibly high for an elitist infested sight that is MAL |
| I am important. I have a girlfriend. Check out my podcast |
| Man to think when I made this the score was over 7, now it's at 6.58. |
|
scabab said: Man to think when I made this the score was over 7, now it's at 6.58. People really do suck |
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