Modern War plot are too pandering

well, anime and all media are allergic to some stuff, like when the MC never actually kills the bad guy and he end up killing himself because a mistake.

And about the war, I think it is more about a way to present it as a serious thing and not this silly sport. To put a more ¨realistic" perspective on war because, it is in fact terrible, regardless of the circumstances. And one thing good about the anime is that is more clear with its war messages, most western war concept almost fall into propagandist messages with one clear side good and the other bad.

I think in anime they usually try to get a more anti war message even tho it fall most of its time into the "we must never have war".

We are talking about anime or similar media, ofc we will see way more stuff on books, from straight up made up cool stories, to practically diaries of the soldiers that fought on the battlefronts. All is quiet on the western front is also something that fall into what OP is saying: "War le bad". Something similar like films like Stalingrad.

Besides, the recent remake of "All quiet on the western front" from Netflix way out of their way to make some changes putting the upper class officers like war hungry people that didnt care about their subordinates, and that wasnt true at all. Yes, they where hard (PTSD wasnt even a thing, btw) and even today military behaves like that. But those officers also had family on the trenches, alive or death. So they werent these apathetic political beasts. They also destroyed the bitter-perfect ending of the book, for something more "hollywood" like. \

And btw, the key word is "most", there are some good war movies, but recently, not many of them.



See above, the recent remake has stuff changed for more political reasons. Also, All is quiet on the western front fall into the "War le bad". And again, the key word is "most".

And the example of Band of brother (that i liked btw, but The Pacific is better but underappreciated), is just a silly example compared to other war crimes like the rape of Berlin or that city that the US bombed until it was ashes. And both mini series are incredible, but they are clearly more "west" oriented, and imo not that far away from other incredible but with a heavy bias movie like Rescuing private Ryan, Enemy at the gates or Black hawk down.

There are like 2 wars going on rising prices all around the board, and news channels don't shut up about China Taiwan and North Korea tensions. People don't really want to listen or animate "war is good, we need it".

Maybe is because I am too into shounen, but Mononokehime, Macross, War in the Pockets, Wing, Rurouni Kenshin, 12 kingdoms, One piece Alabasta arc, Seed, Naruto, Trigun, 00, Arslan Senki, Gintama. Older anime always had anti war messages.
And yet, Frieren and some other fantasy anime go against that current. .

@Sasori56483

Rurouni Kenshin doesn't exactly fit with your other examples, because it isn't exactly a war anime, in the horse sense of the term. It's a Bakumatsu anime (then set during the Meiji era), having Kenshin as a role model of sort.
The thematic gist of a Bakumatsu revolves around the need to kiss the old social order goodbye, to be in tunes with the modern times. It is different, because it doesn't use a war setting.

If you take a close look at RK, you will notice how the antagonists are either misfits who refuse to move on from the shogunate times or rogues from the old times using their past experience with nefarious purposes in mind.

@sorcery Totally agree it is not exactly a war anime, like Trigun ain't too. But Kenshin refuses to kill, this is a big pacifistic theme tied to this OP sentence.

Some of his relevant enemies, the weapon merchant who sells the machinegun in the Oniwaban arc, Shishio who is planning a coup de etat and a civil war against the new regime.
And the anime movie is also about him stopping a rebellion.

"modern anime is antiwar"

Bro has never read what mangaka born around WW2 were writing in the 70s 😭😭😭

Meh...that was kinda true in older anime too. There was always an angle of when push comes to shove, you may have to fight and live with the consequences of that in older anime; however, they pushed pretty pro-pacifism themes, or that war is just a product of stupidity.

I would actually kinda agree with that assertion, though applied more to anime in general historically. A lot actually do a pretty good job, at the moral instruction bit, condemning militarism while not being overly preachy and self righteous. Some though struggle with that.

??? No they don't? All Quiet on the Western Front, is one of the most critically acclaimed pieces of fiction out there, and it's highly critical of war itself, and the moral ambiguity of both sides. Most American fiction on Vietnam/ME is very highly critical of America's role there. The only case where you could argue we in the West extoll conflict is WW2, if you are from a country that was in the Allies, and I wonder why that is? Even in many of those works, shows like Band of Brothers accurately reported some of the less favourable dealings of the 101st Airborne (the execution of POWs etc).

You are more likely to find that stuff in classic 80s action films, or the occasional counter terrorism plot from a Tom Clancy novel/film (even shows like 24 regularly vilified the American government, in addition to typical baddie targets of the USA). Most war shows/films in the West, are pretty critical of the concept too. There is more of a "just war" idea, however, that has more to do with the fact, a lot of war films/media focused on WW2, and while there was a lot of evil shit the Allies got up to, in comparison to the Axis, it's one of the more black and white conflicts out there, when considering the alternative. Most other conflicts Vietnam, WW1, Civil War in America (though this is a problem considering the Lost Cause shit) do give more nuance to both sides.

Eh not really, it's rare to find shows in the medium, that say this war is righteous and we must prevail. Anime tends to bake in more themes around the tragedy/stupidity of war, which makes sense considering Japan's modern history. That's actually something I don't like in Japan's approach, because they over focus on the tragedy....like how many suffering films about the bombings of Japan do we get, compared to works that are critical of the Japanese military in the Philippines, Hong Kong or China?

Again, on the alternative works like Gundam or Legend of the Galactic Heroes are refreshing compared to say Star Wars; however, I just more of a balance there. Anime plots over commit sometimes, and think you should be able to simply avoid conflict, by understanding the "other". Though one could argue, anime has this because it's a pretty YA focused medium, and the plots are trying to create good kids/teens.

There are plenty of reasons to fight, kill and want to win.

I like Vinland Saga however, characters like Thors and Thorkell are in the wrong. There are absolutely people who are enemies, that you must fight in this world. You can enjoy works that you disagree with on principle, and I am curious to see how Yukimura will resolve the ending considering how it ended historically.

Though yeah, OP's assertion is applicable to both modern and old anime.

Meh...that was kinda true in older anime too. There was always an angle of when push comes to shove, you may have to fight and live with the consequences of that in older anime; however, they pushed pretty pro-pacifism themes, or that war is just a product of stupidity.

I would actually kinda agree with that assertion, though applied more to anime in general historically. A lot actually do a pretty good job, at the moral instruction bit, condemning militarism while not being overly preachy and self righteous. Some though struggle with that.

??? No they don't? All Quiet on the Western Front, is one of the most critically acclaimed pieces of fiction out there, and it's highly critical of war itself, and the moral ambiguity of both sides. Most American fiction on Vietnam/ME is very highly critical of America's role there. The only case where you could argue we in the West extoll conflict is WW2, if you are from a country that was in the Allies, and I wonder why that is? Even in many of those works, shows like Band of Brothers accurately reported some of the less favourable dealings of the 101st Airborne (the execution of POWs etc).

You are more likely to find that stuff in classic 80s action films, or the occasional counter terrorism plot from a Tom Clancy novel/film (even shows like 24 regularly vilified the American government, in addition to typical baddie targets of the USA). Most war shows/films in the West, are pretty critical of the concept too. There is more of a "just war" idea, however, that has more to do with the fact, a lot of war films/media focused on WW2, and while there was a lot of evil shit the Allies got up to, in comparison to the Axis, it's one of the more black and white conflicts out there, when considering the alternative. Most other conflicts Vietnam, WW1, Civil War in America (though this is a problem considering the Lost Cause shit) do give more nuance to both sides.

Eh not really, it's rare to find shows in the medium, that say this war is righteous and we must prevail. Anime tends to bake in more themes around the tragedy/stupidity of war, which makes sense considering Japan's modern history. That's actually something I don't like in Japan's approach, because they over focus on the tragedy....like how many suffering films about the bombings of Japan do we get, compared to works that are critical of the Japanese military in the Philippines, Hong Kong or China?

Again, on the alternative works like Gundam or Legend of the Galactic Heroes are refreshing compared to say Star Wars; however, I just more of a balance there. Anime plots over commit sometimes, and think you should be able to simply avoid conflict, by understanding the "other". Though one could argue, anime has this because it's a pretty YA focused medium, and the plots are trying to create good kids/teens.

There are plenty of reasons to fight, kill and want to win.

I like Vinland Saga however, characters like Thors and Thorkell are in the wrong. There are absolutely people who are enemies, that you must fight in this world. You can enjoy works that you disagree with on principle, and I am curious to see how Yukimura will resolve the ending considering how it ended historically.

Though yeah, OP's assertion is applicable to both modern and old anime.

Lol, why would Japanese make any self-loathing anime about Philippines, Hong Kong or China? How about British film a movie about opium wars against China for example instead of crap like "heroic retreat from Dunkirk"? How about USA film few movies about how they bribed traitors and installed dictators after coups around the world instead of "my freedom!"? Oh no, it would be so problematic, totally not patriotic, why would they do that, right? But Japanese should do this for some reason, yeah. Won't happen, not needed.

Lol, why would Japanese make any self-loathing anime about Philippines, Hong Kong or China? How about British film a movie about opium wars against China for example instead of crap like "heroic retreat from Dunkirk"? How about USA film few movies about how they bribed traitors and installed dictators after coups around the world instead of "my freedom!"? Oh no, it would be so problematic, totally not patriotic, why would they do that, right? But Japanese should do this for some reason, yeah. Won't happen, not needed.

Everything is propaganda in one form or another. It’s pretty easy to argue that encouraging a state’s people to be anti interventionist or pacifist on some issues benefits some other group in a conflict.
Well no, they feel sorry for what happened to them, not necessarily what they did. Also they absolutely should feel way more sorry about that lol. Less the suffering due to the bombings and more the mass murdering and raping across Asia.
In what context is this statement presented? Within anime, within media generally? Plenty of wars, where the main side is the "aggressor" are presented as just wars. Usually wars of resistance, fought by say an oppressed side, are often depicted favorably, even if the "oppressed" started the war, technically.

@Lawgun

Since when ackowledging tragic errors of the imperial past is "self loathing"? Your point about self loathing doesn't make sense since WW2 Japan and Contemporary Japan are two different Japans. Otherwise, contemporary Japan would still be a militaristic superpower.

Haven't finished LoGH but gundam is extremely critical of the concept, I feel like the message from gundam is how empathy and the want to understand others are the way to achieve peace, just understanding others doesn't help, especially with zeta showing how people who lack the want to understand and just understand abuse their understanding and the empathy of others for their own means
The ending of CCA isn't "I get the other side so there's peace" it's "hey, I care about the people that are going to die if we don't stop the fighting for now more than I care about the conflict, the conflict won't be resolved but this want for a better future, the love and the hope shown in this moment are what in the future if others will see it too, might be the ket that will provide a path to solving the conflict"

@Lawgun

I am sure the Chinese would be enchanted to know that the Nanking massacre perpetrated by the Japanese Army of occupation was none of Japan's fault, then. Or how they slaughtered American prisoners of war as a form of revenge. I'd advise for you to stop shaming yourself, making points about things out of your depth. There is a limit to being a weeaboo, creating questionable excuses for Japanese historical past due to your bovine admiration for the subculture.

@Guilmon1 Yeah I don't disagree that Gundam actually did it well. LOTGH does it very well too. That is why I brought them up as refreshing takes, compared to your typical B/W morality of something like Star Wars. It's works like Naruto which I don't think always execute it well, and can get a bit self righteous.

If you are going to take an actual critical lens on war, running away from your own history, makes said work seem kinda hollow to me.
Last time I checked the USA has made films about the evils of slavery, atrocities they have committed against Native Americans, and even their involvement in Vietnam, touching on some of the not so good things about the war, which is more than Japan can say. Lawerence of Arabia isn't just praising the British forever so there is your British film critical of the British.
Probably.
If anything, it would be good to show some solidarity to actually apologizing for what they did in WW2, which I think a lot of Asian nations, take with suspicion and for good reason (looking at the shrines, general nationalistic attitudes present in the govt that downplay the past).

Also

Being critical of one's history isn't self loathing, it's learning from it. Now liberals/progressives in the West don't go about this always in the best of ways, however, I am not going to be a blind jingoist and say oh yeah Britain was awesome, and we should always see the empire in that light. As a Canadian, First Nations in this country, Metis, the French and other minorities haven't always been treated the best here and I think it's good to talk about that, and the failures of the system, because that is what I look at history as, lessons, not nationalistic orgasms like some of you. I don't read history to feel better about my heritage.

Now yeah do some progressives go so far to condemn the concept of the Canadian state, entirely despite all the good we have also done? Yes, I don't agree with that attitude. I don't think Japanese people should be ashamed of their heritage or British people should be ashamed, or I should be ashamed of my own national heritage. We have done a lot of good, and that is true of those nations, however, the lack of internal criticism doesn't display strength to me, it displays insecurity.

Regardless of what many morons think you don't need to think in either extreme, either self hate, or blind nationalism.

And considering that we are talking about "anti war works' if Japan's wants the film around Hiroshima or the Fire Bombings, with it's messages taken seriously, then they should be critical of the other atrocities present in Asia. Otherwise, it just looks like victimization, which is what I am saying it is. I would be more inclined to take those messages seriously and look back on allied atrocities, if said viewpoint was reciprocated however, it's not. Like even Miyazaki may talk about how bad Japan treated the Philippines however, where is the Ghibli film depicting this? Kinda cowardly, if you are going to take such a self righteous position and not use your own to demonstrate your belief.

Plus the point is, if they want some of these anti war self righteous narratives to be taken seriously, they should. I honestly don't care, either way, I just roll my eyes at the only WW2 media out there being about the bombings. An attack on the IJA isn't the next thing I actually want to see out the industry.

See above. Also it's funny how you guys get so defensive about this. If you are going to do historical films and over focus on one event, and ignore the others, that is just insecurity. Why do we need another anime film about the bombings? Why not show what happened in China? If you are going to do anti war narratives about real events you eventually need to show every side, and unlike what Mr. Lawgun thinks, yeah even pro military crazy America does that with Vietnam. I also explained why I see some conflicts different. The point is the West actually does self criticize which most of the world fails to do and I am going to not call them out on that shit, especially when they get self righteous about certain political or social topics with real world application.

Anime has not failed to be critical of American/British foreign policy decisions so yeah....that stuff is kinda hollow, considering their own lack of internal criticism of their own modern day decisions besides, we started a war and that was bad because we suffered. I mean some of these works are kinda hilarious in inspiration such as 86, where the writer was inspired by the interment of Japanese Americans (what did they get the Koreans to do lol?). It's just self victimization and I can look past that, I liked 86, though some of the moral messaging. was incredibly heavy handed and a flaw of the show; however, if we are going to have a honest conversation, a lot of creators in this industry do side step hard discussions that may make them feel guilty.


Yeah it's nice living under a nuclear umbrella so you don't have to get your hands dirty. Japan's own politicians can't stop visiting the Yasukuni Shrine which has a museum justifying a lot of what they did in WW2. Give me a break. There are a lot of Japanese people that still downplay what they did. The fact they aren't a foreign policy player, anymore, which they can choose to be due to American deterrence against China, doesn't invalidate how they treat their past.

Fact is about some of those issues yeah Japan got pretty fucking self righteous and that once again was incredibly hypocritical and idiotic, when government officials still go to that shrine. If anything Japan plays themselves as the Saint here, weighing in on complex political issues while failing to just simply get over WW2, and get rid of that revisionist museum and decry the mass murderers interred there. People whine about the self righteous West, and you know what? Maybe we are however, I think the rest of world is if anything way worse, they whine about us, and don't do a single bit of self reflection, which I can least say yeah we do in the West.

Deathko brought up the media, that other nations do successfully use to be self critical which isn't related to specific governments so I don't fucking know why you are going there? It's not like Trump/Bush/Regan etc got along with Hollywood lol. So your point there is just invalid.

Ultimately you are getting also off topic, away from media into actual politics though if you want to express your political views, that probably wrongfully victimize illiberal, authoritarian and theocrat states/people and their actions, go ahead, lots of people in the regions you are talking about also self victimize without a single self critical bone being present in academia or their media. I would honestly would be fine, going there though the MAL mods are not going to take it well.