| I don't care where its from. I do not dislike Western media either. |
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| I don’t really care. I dwindled down my anime definition as any animation that’s original language is japanese. Like many shows in America are animated overseas The boondocks is technically a anime by a lot of peoples standards, it has a very stereotypical anime style and some of it was animated by Madhouse and other Japanese animation companies. If it’s good it’s good, I enjoy western media more than anime for the most part anyways. |
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| My definition is that it's animated and the original script is written in Japanese, which implies the original audio language is Japanese as well. |
| I couldn't care less, animation made in japan. |
valico said: Maybe I'm mistaken, and people do actually enjoy these non-Japanese works and simply reject their often incorrect (by this definition) classification as "anime". Yes, this is what any normal person would say. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| Even though I'm very narrow in my definition of anime (Japan only, no Chinese or American or Korean or French or whatever series that borrow the style) I'm not a Japan onlyist. My favorite TV show and movie are both >muh evil western hollywood slop |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
| I don't think most people care about where a show is from when it comes to enjoyment unless they're genuine weeaboos. Like you said, non-Japanese works just aren't anime by the common western definition of anime, so a lot of people disagree with anime-ish cartoons made outside Japan being called "anime". For me I mostly enjoy Japanese stuff, but that's more because I've had more experience with Japanese animated media compared to other mediums rather than any actual preference. |
| while I am a bit of a japanophile, it's the characteristics of anime that make it interesting to me, not the fact it's made in japan. which is also why I do disagree with MAL's "Japan only" definition of anime, so there is that. I wondered this because a lot of people seem to dislike Western made media which visibly resembles anime I can almost guarantee you that that's a loud minority if anything. |
valico said: The reason why I dislike this is it is mostly inauthentic slop with no passion made to hop on the anime trend I would say "The Lord of the Rings: The War of the Rohirrim" is a good example of what I'm talking aboutI wondered this because a lot of people seem to dislike Western made media which visibly resembles anime, but isn't Japanese. |
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| I'm happy to watch animation from anywhere. I love tons of western stuff, and in recent years, I've enjoyed some animation from China and South Korea. I think "anime style" animation from the west rubs a lot of people the wrong way because they feel like they're "copying" or "trying to be" anime. Either because they're not creative enough to come up with their own thing (since they're clearly going out of their way to mimic the distinct style of another country's animation), or they're doing it because anime is trendy right now, and they know that "looking like" anime will draw viewers. So I think it's more like the principle of the thing for a lot of people, not necessarily because something absolutely must be "real" anime for them to enjoy it. There's also something that can feel a little weird about watching something that looks like anime, but doesn't really feel like anime, if that makes sense. The visuals can be really close to anime, but everything else still feels western, like something is just "off" somehow. There's a disconnect between what your eyes are seeing, and what you're experiencing. This can sometimes be a little distracting. I don't really feel strongly about any of this, and I'd be glad to watch an "anime style" work as long as it was good, but I think these are some of the reasons why a lot of people have trouble accepting them. |
palm-treeJun 8, 1:46 PM
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| 100% Japanimantion .....everything else is just blatent copy cat or low quality knock-off ...i mean fan art is fine for a little fun but i would'nt have started watching anime in the 1st place if it was'nt Japanese, its very well distinguished & established in/from Japan. globalists & tourists would want to tear down those concepts but they can kiss my ass |
| If thing is good, it is good. On the opposite side, I don't think Visibly resembles anime is fair, because anime itself has tons of styles, even if very few keep dominating each decade.And some of them are bad. I think it is interesting that MAL does not add DMC and Castlevania, like it does not add Seinfeld or X-men 1996 and 97, but if we can filter site/forum works by country. I am in. I have no idea why DMC didn't really work for me. If it is battle coreography or the movement preparation. So I'd love for a non-action, non-battle reliant animation, to check if they can do anime. ps: Even with that x-men opening (Warning, Epylepsy risk), tell me if it is not very anime-y? |
Reply to Sasori56483
If thing is good, it is good.
On the opposite side, I don't think Visibly resembles anime is fair, because anime itself has tons of styles, even if very few keep dominating each decade.And some of them are bad.
I think it is interesting that MAL does not add DMC and Castlevania, like it does not add Seinfeld or X-men 1996 and 97, but if we can filter site/forum works by country. I am in. I have no idea why DMC didn't really work for me. If it is battle coreography or the movement preparation. So I'd love for a non-action, non-battle reliant animation, to check if they can do anime.
ps: Even with that x-men opening (Warning, Epylepsy risk), tell me if it is not very anime-y?
On the opposite side, I don't think Visibly resembles anime is fair, because anime itself has tons of styles, even if very few keep dominating each decade.And some of them are bad.
I think it is interesting that MAL does not add DMC and Castlevania, like it does not add Seinfeld or X-men 1996 and 97, but if we can filter site/forum works by country. I am in. I have no idea why DMC didn't really work for me. If it is battle coreography or the movement preparation. So I'd love for a non-action, non-battle reliant animation, to check if they can do anime.
ps: Even with that x-men opening (Warning, Epylepsy risk), tell me if it is not very anime-y?
| @Sasori56483 If they started adding those they would have to add Animaniacs and Tiny Toons as well. I'm not complaining, I am all for it, I loved them as a kid. |
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Reply to minzera
@Sasori56483 If they started adding those they would have to add Animaniacs and Tiny Toons as well. I'm not complaining, I am all for it, I loved them as a kid.
| @minzera Indeed, there is the part the db mods also get tired of checking western staff and the requests start to pile up in the forums. |
Reply to valico
@ItachiDeltaForce So, why specifically is it important to you that your animated media comes from Japan? Is a work like Castlevania, for example, bad just because it uses a style similar to anime but isn't Japanese?
| @valico bc im simply a traditionalist purist just like i would'nt want south park or king of the hill to be made by anyone out side america |
Reply to valico
@ItachiDeltaForce I guess I just don't understand what value purism offers for some of these works. South Park and King of the Hill are very specifically about American experiences. Castlevania is historical fiction taking place in Europe, so it's not like that is in any particular way an exclusive experience particular to Japan, even if the IP itself originated there. If it were Genshiken or Lucky Star we were talking about, I'd understand there.
| @valico i guess a good example is game of thrones ....the og author is american but thrones itself was shot in around europe and oc theres tonnes of anime set in other parts of the world which is fine...but as long as its "made in Japan" is whats important to me |
| No, my own definition, understanding, and usage of the term has evolved. It's no longer something I consider as limited to animated works from Japan, but from the region of East Asia in general, so including all Chinese and Korean works as well (and theoretically any other from within the region, whether Thai or Burmese or Filipino or Vietnamese or Mongolian, even if they're still niche minor contributors). Actually, reclassifying it in a way to cast a broader umbrella or bigger net and encompass all East Asian animation is one of the only decisions in recent memory MAL has made which I truly agree with. The reason being not only a matter of geographic proximity but the shared cultural historical links of all the countries in this region to varying extents and the influence of the indigenous Japanese animation industry outward to shaping their own in those respective other lands. For China and (South) Korea in particular there's also a huge market share and gradually growing co-development of their national animation industries. A lot of Japanese anime you see now is being outsourced for animation work to China and South Korea, there are increasing dual national co-development projects, and when reading the credits after many episodes of Japanese anime nowadays it's increasingly common to see a huge amount of Chinese, Korean, even Vietnamese names. As far as determining or limiting my own viewing repertoire based on considerations of national origin or even medium itself, I don't do it. I watch everything of all nationalities and mediums. It's not like I don't watch animation which I don't consider anime - i.e. non-East Asian animation. I've seen a lot of it, particularly American and Canadian, and some of its series and films are high up in my general rankings. |
WatchTillTandavaJun 8, 2:41 PM
| If it's good, it's good, Japanese or not |
| Gintoki and Sugita's birthdays are 1 day apart. |
| "How important is it for a show/movie to be "anime" for you to enjoy it?" Not really important for the enjoyment... But it's really important for me to distinguish the source, the cultural context, the legacy and the authors of the things I enjoy. It helps me to understand it better. Like for example Kusuriya no Hitorigoto visually takes place is an fictionally version of China, but the character writing and the plot threads are very japanese. So if I was watching this with chinese dub and with the presumption it's donghua it would give me some cognitive dissonance. "Most of these works are quite good" Really? I would say only few are actually good (mostly stuff made by Korean studios) and the rest are milking the popularity of anime. By the way, I never understood how people can confuse Castlevania for anime (aside of Netflix passing it as such). |
alshuJun 8, 11:38 PM
Reply to valico
Sasori56483 said:
On the opposite side, I don't think Visibly resembles anime is fair, because anime itself has tons of styles, even if very few keep dominating each decade.And some of them are bad.
On the opposite side, I don't think Visibly resembles anime is fair, because anime itself has tons of styles, even if very few keep dominating each decade.And some of them are bad.
I think this is an interesting topic as well. Anime does have a number of distict styles, but they are specifically developed within anime. And it seems a lot of criticism of shows like DMC and Castlevania come from them carrying an anime style but aren't purely Japanese in origin/production. The detracting arguments are rarely along the lines of, "These are fine shows, but they're not anime by definition." Usually there is some kind of call out of it being "copycat" or "fake" or something, which to me indicates that people do believe anime has distinct styles that can be uniquely attributed to anime.
This idea that anime doesn't have a unique style (or multiple unique styles, rather) seems like an attempt to avoid the admission that part of what makes anime anime is its visual style(s), and those can be replicated.
| @valico valico said: t part of what makes anime anime A problem is that part is replicable for each of them, but is not authentical. So Ghibli can do Ghibli visual style, SAO studio can do Kirito Copies, and Thrigger can make Panty and Stocking and TTGL, Kyoani ... Madhouse can do their marvel entries. But if western studio makes its own unique style, it becomes a copycat target. And if they perfectly reproduce the visual art style of Akira, or Dragon Ball? If VAS is just part of what makes anime anime? Lacking the other parts, crowd claims: Copycat! Even if somehow, there is a chance that Akira and Dragon ball themselves don't have that same part. For VAS only, I would not say Vinland Saga or Jojo are anime. |
| I genuinely do not care where a piece of media comes from, and most people really don't. It's just a vocal minority of weirdos who actively hate anything not made in Japan. |
This post is brought to you by your local transfem gamer goblin. Will not tolerate bigotry and will fight against "anti-woke" sentiment to make the anime community a safer place.  |
Reply to valico
Sasori56483 said:
A problem is that part is replicable for each of them, but is not authentical. So Ghibli can do Ghibli visual style, SAO studio can do Kirito Copies, and Thrigger can make Panty and Stocking and TTGL, Kyoani ... Madhouse can do their marvel entries. But if western studio makes its own unique style, it becomes a copycat target.
A problem is that part is replicable for each of them, but is not authentical. So Ghibli can do Ghibli visual style, SAO studio can do Kirito Copies, and Thrigger can make Panty and Stocking and TTGL, Kyoani ... Madhouse can do their marvel entries. But if western studio makes its own unique style, it becomes a copycat target.
alshu said:
Really? I would say only few are actually good (mostly stiff made by Korean studios) and the rest are milking the popularity of anime.
By the way, I never understood how people can confuse Castlevania for anime (aside of Netflix passing it as such).
Really? I would say only few are actually good (mostly stiff made by Korean studios) and the rest are milking the popularity of anime.
By the way, I never understood how people can confuse Castlevania for anime (aside of Netflix passing it as such).
How is it that you distinguish if something is authentic or milking anime's popularity? Western works such as Scott Pilgrim Takes Off and Turning Red were both quite obviously heavily influenced by anime, and both creators have gone on record to state that anime was a major part of their lives/artistic inspirations. Anime has been a global phenomenon for decades now, and creators outside of Japan have grown up with it for their entire lives now. This is authenticity. Japanese media has had a huge impact on the entire world at this point.
| @valico yes it is but why ruin its cultural idendity its roots its distinctive nuance ...its japanese thru and thru thats good enough for me..only progressive globalist tourist heretic types would want to upset the order/status quo and if the flood gates open then im afraid its a win for wokism and anime would lose its mystique |
ItachiDeltaForceJun 8, 5:26 PM
Reply to valico
Sasori56483 said:
A problem is that part is replicable for each of them, but is not authentical. So Ghibli can do Ghibli visual style, SAO studio can do Kirito Copies, and Thrigger can make Panty and Stocking and TTGL, Kyoani ... Madhouse can do their marvel entries. But if western studio makes its own unique style, it becomes a copycat target.
A problem is that part is replicable for each of them, but is not authentical. So Ghibli can do Ghibli visual style, SAO studio can do Kirito Copies, and Thrigger can make Panty and Stocking and TTGL, Kyoani ... Madhouse can do their marvel entries. But if western studio makes its own unique style, it becomes a copycat target.
alshu said:
Really? I would say only few are actually good (mostly stiff made by Korean studios) and the rest are milking the popularity of anime.
By the way, I never understood how people can confuse Castlevania for anime (aside of Netflix passing it as such).
Really? I would say only few are actually good (mostly stiff made by Korean studios) and the rest are milking the popularity of anime.
By the way, I never understood how people can confuse Castlevania for anime (aside of Netflix passing it as such).
How is it that you distinguish if something is authentic or milking anime's popularity? Western works such as Scott Pilgrim Takes Off and Turning Red were both quite obviously heavily influenced by anime, and both creators have gone on record to state that anime was a major part of their lives/artistic inspirations. Anime has been a global phenomenon for decades now, and creators outside of Japan have grown up with it for their entire lives now. This is authenticity. Japanese media has had a huge impact on the entire world at this point.
| @valico But if they sell themselves as authentic anime, they turn out to be milking the pool? Unless it is a perfect copy of one of the styles, so unauthentic. Both can get labelled copycat. Again, all those different things getting called anime, this another thing, not anime. > This idea that anime doesn't have a unique style (or multiple unique styles, rather) seems like an attempt to avoid the admission that part of what makes anime anime is its visual style(s), and those can be replicated. There is similar for Bande dessiné BDs, Comics and Manga. And the art styles in painting/art movements. You get Neo Modern and other stuff that is inspired by the thing, but is not the thing. |
| I honestly don't understand why certain people don't count anime that was made in Japan but for a different region outside of it as not anime. I think so long as it's made in Japan it counts. |
 |
Reply to valico
ItachiDeltaForce said:
yes it is but why ruin its cultural idendity its roots its distinctive nuance ...its japanese thru and thru thats good enough for me..only progressive globalist tourist heretic types would want to upset the order/status quo
yes it is but why ruin its cultural idendity its roots its distinctive nuance ...its japanese thru and thru thats good enough for me..only progressive globalist tourist heretic types would want to upset the order/status quo
The globalism is driven by Japan selling their culture beyond their borders. This is the result of that. People aren't copying anime to cosplay as a work of authentic Japanese media - they're developing their artistic ability under the direct influence of exported Japanese media. It is the same reason Japanese artists develop a style reminiscent of anime, because they grow up with it. That is authenticity.
Sasori56483 said:
But if they sell themselves as authentic anime, they turn out to be milking the pool?
But if they sell themselves as authentic anime, they turn out to be milking the pool?
I don't think most of these creators are attempting to say they're authentically Japanese, and I think if they're labeling themselves as "anime" it's because they don't subscribe to the definition this thread is predicated on. I think most people would define anime as a combination of visual style, animation techniques, and directorial style pioneered or popularized by Japanese animation, not as "animation from Japan." And by that definition, it would be appropriate to label these works as anime.
| @valico valico said: Japan selling their culture beyond their borders thats been going on for decades now thats nothing new |
| Well anime for me is like other medium like a cartoon and movie I like anime because they have a good story and of course the artstyle I just love anime drawing but I don't hate Western media Like Movies I like cartoons and I like Asia media like Chinese Movies Japan and Korea (even Thailand and Philippines) Just enjoy your show that's what matter. |
 |
Reply to valico
ItachiDeltaForce said:
yes it is but why ruin its cultural idendity its roots its distinctive nuance ...its japanese thru and thru thats good enough for me..only progressive globalist tourist heretic types would want to upset the order/status quo
yes it is but why ruin its cultural idendity its roots its distinctive nuance ...its japanese thru and thru thats good enough for me..only progressive globalist tourist heretic types would want to upset the order/status quo
The globalism is driven by Japan selling their culture beyond their borders. This is the result of that. People aren't copying anime to cosplay as a work of authentic Japanese media - they're developing their artistic ability under the direct influence of exported Japanese media. It is the same reason Japanese artists develop a style reminiscent of anime, because they grow up with it. That is authenticity.
Sasori56483 said:
But if they sell themselves as authentic anime, they turn out to be milking the pool?
But if they sell themselves as authentic anime, they turn out to be milking the pool?
I don't think most of these creators are attempting to say they're authentically Japanese, and I think if they're labeling themselves as "anime" it's because they don't subscribe to the definition this thread is predicated on. I think most people would define anime as a combination of visual style, animation techniques, and directorial style pioneered or popularized by Japanese animation, not as "animation from Japan." And by that definition, it would be appropriate to label these works as anime.
| @valico I was saying on the authentic as means their combination of visual style, animation techniques, and directorial style diverged from the anime strains noticeable. Things like the Boondocks, Kora, and even Castlevania. Ghibli and Kyo are each authentic, but are the strains. Your definition has to always include what both of them do, whatever they do? Right ? Japanese themselves are happily saying anime for anything that moves in a screen. Westerns trying to create a split from cartoons, made a category. And the inspired by japanese makers, and you in a certain way, is trying to extend that category to include part of the cartoons. And some people vow by the older category, and not the extension. It is better to just delete the first split. |
| From my experience it’s the opposite way around. Most people here tend to prefer western media over anime. |
| Avatar The Last Airbender is probably in my top 20 or 30 anime list, so I don't really care where the anime comes from as long as it's enjoyable. I am currently also enjoying many anime made by China too. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| If it's Anime, I'll automatically enjoy it, no matter if its bad or good. If it's not Anime, I'll automatically hate it, no matter if its "good" or bad. All non-Anime aka Western Animation by default is bad and I'll hate it. Western made media which visibly "resembles" Anime are easy to differentiate from Anime since one is just promoting a political agenda while the -true- Anime tells an apolitical story which most or all people want. We're trying to escape the evil real life so showing a Western show who tries to do something similar, ofc will made us to hate it. I'm loyal to Japan and Anime. |
| BANZAI NIPPON. Nippon is the Land of freedom. Nippon is the Land of Peace. Nippon is the Land of Justice and Prosperity. In Nippon, we trust. We love Nippon, we love Anime. Anime love us, Nippon love us. 日本 |
| You seem to come from a faulty premise that media is "continuous" instead of "discrete", that in the world you can choose an shape of any color. The world isn't like that: You gave green triangles and blue circles. Did you want a green circle? A red square? THOUGH LUCK, MY FRIEND. This is what I mean when I say "there is no alternative" or "nothing comes close": "The West" and "Anime" aren't trying to do the same thing. The stories and aesthetics that anime works with simply aren't being made in the west, there is no "green circle". |
| @HokutoMumyoZan kinda explained it with better words here: HokutoMumyoZan said: Anime was touted for doing all of the things "animation at home wouldn't touch", from progressive story arcs to having more "adult" topics and featuring all of the stuff that would make the FCC go on a crusade and siege studios like Jerusalem back in the day. Fans were also not hesitant to fight back either, voicing their protests and using their wallets as well as power of choice to really show their sway in equal measure. You gotta understand that the gap between what each produces is so big, and what the west produces so incompatible that if I put ten producers in a room and giving them the choice between making Choujuushin Gravion in the west or killing themselves, the ten would likely pull the trigger. Remember, even when copying things that already exist, were already made and proven successful, they fail (Death Note and Cowboy Bebop), so this enough should be a proof to you that the chances of those "growing from scratch" in the US are FUCKING ZERO. On a quick glance, there's nothing that would make something like Haibane Renmei incompatible of being done in the west... yet it wasn't. At a quick glance, there's nothing that would make incompatible for Kowloon Generic Romance to have been a western TV series instead... yet it wasn't. I read this tweet yesterday, and it reminded me of something I called "The Bulma Effect", coming from the fact that the character of Bulma in "Dragon Ball Evolution" has a single strand of hair painted green, as if a trace amount of the original, a vestigial remain of it after most of what was seen as "non-western" was removed. A similar thing would be certain props that the characters in NETFLIX's version of Kakegurui wear, even though they no longer have anything to do with the original ones and should've just left those. My example with the gun might have seemed absurd, but is it really when it's clear that they act towards anime how an hydrophobic acts towards water? Honestly, Ralph Bakshi put it in better words (Or lack of thereof) than I ever could: If the west thinks that "anime" is just a "coat of paint" that you put on top of something, and not the content, the soul of such thing, then you're NGMI. |
Reply to valico
thewiru said:
This is what I mean when I say "there is no alternative" or "nothing comes close": "The West" and "Anime" aren't trying to do the same thing. The stories and aesthetics that anime works with simply aren't being made in the west, there is no "green circle".
This is what I mean when I say "there is no alternative" or "nothing comes close": "The West" and "Anime" aren't trying to do the same thing. The stories and aesthetics that anime works with simply aren't being made in the west, there is no "green circle".
What specifically is anime doing that is so seemingly impossible for the West to accomplish? I can understand that Western productions historically may have not had the context or desire to produce works like Japan had, but those times have mostly gone. There's no particular reason a Western studio couldn't produce a show which stands alongside anime as peers. What is it that precludes non-Japanese people from being able to produce a work like Soul Eater, Black Lagoon, or Monster? I don't believe there is anything, and I don't believe that the Japanese nationality possesses some magical DNA which allows them to make animated works differently than other people.
valico said: What specifically is anime doing that is so seemingly impossible for the West to accomplish? Here's the thing: In theory, nothing is impossible, the west just doesn't do it. valico said: What is it that precludes non-Japanese people from being able to produce a work like Soul Eater, Black Lagoon, or Monster? Like I've said: Absolutely nothing. Yet. They. Still. Don't. Do. It. At this point you have to think that maybe it isn't fully just "the west failing" as it is "Japan succeeding". Is anime more creative or is it just different? I theorized that it might have been something related to "The American Dream" being more real there than here, since it happens quite often that a literal nobody ends up writing a manga that ends up being ultra-successful, as well as other indie places where this can happen such as ComiKet or the Narou blog, while in the US thing would be more "top-down" and "stratified" to the point that even huge western successes such as "Star Wars" wouldn't have been made nowadays. |
Reply to valico
thewiru said:
This is what I mean when I say "there is no alternative" or "nothing comes close": "The West" and "Anime" aren't trying to do the same thing. The stories and aesthetics that anime works with simply aren't being made in the west, there is no "green circle".
This is what I mean when I say "there is no alternative" or "nothing comes close": "The West" and "Anime" aren't trying to do the same thing. The stories and aesthetics that anime works with simply aren't being made in the west, there is no "green circle".
What specifically is anime doing that is so seemingly impossible for the West to accomplish? I can understand that Western productions historically may have not had the context or desire to produce works like Japan had, but those times have mostly gone. There's no particular reason a Western studio couldn't produce a show which stands alongside anime as peers. What is it that precludes non-Japanese people from being able to produce a work like Soul Eater, Black Lagoon, or Monster? I don't believe there is anything, and I don't believe that the Japanese nationality possesses some magical DNA which allows them to make animated works differently than other people.
valico said: I don't believe there is anything, and I don't believe that the Japanese nationality possesses some magical DNA which allows them to make animated works differently than other people. At this point I just theorize that it must be some for of "learned helplessness" in the west. |
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