New
May 4, 11:55 PM
#51
| The real answer is dubs are just really jarring and gross. The VAs are terrible, and there's got to be like a maximum of 20 that they rotate through all the English localized anime. Maybe you don't really notice as a child, but once you start watching subs or whatever it's just impossible to stop noticing. It's like growing up in a margarine household and then trying butter for the first time. That shit is just not the same. I can definitely believe it's not butter. People who are just used to margarine and are afraid to try butter? That's fine, you can just sorta pity them, but they're not bad people. The people who have become accustomed to both and swap back and forth? They are the monsters that lurk among us. Back to a more serious tone @op. I am a subs hardliner on the Internet. I don't hide that I think subs are better irl, but I don't try to make people feel bad about being dub watchers. I'm well known for being an anime enjoyer, and I have watched full anime dubbed because I was acting as a guest, but it's like nails on a chalkboard. Dub watchers trying to show you an anime is like a Brit trying to show an Italian pasta. You can be polite about it but you might cry inside. |
Urza1234May 5, 12:10 AM
May 5, 12:11 AM
#52
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
I'm not talking about the script, I'm talking about the experience.
Yeah I am talking about the experiance too, I just don't think it's that drastic. For instance, as someone who has gotten a lot more into reading, does it matter that I listened to an audiobook, versus another person who read it in their own internal monologue? What about the dude who listened to the Graphic audiobook version, that has sound effects and multiple VAs? I mean that isn't the exact same experiance however, at the end of the day, we yes can still discuss the story, which is what matters. That is literally all you are describing.I'm not talking about the script, I'm talking about the experience.
thewiru said:
I'm a simple man, I simply had contact with otaku communities that regarded watching sub as the right thing to do, the way it should be.
There is no "RIGHT" way. There is just different ways. Cause objectively, if we want to use that word, the right way to watch anime, is to watch it RAW. So unless you plan to learn Japanese fluently you aren't watching it "RIGHT" either. Fact is subs lose subtext all the time, plenty of jokes are just not going to be understood, even if they are spelled out, and frankly, going through older sub translations makes you question some of the choices, some fansubbers had, even as someone who doesn't know the language. I'm a simple man, I simply had contact with otaku communities that regarded watching sub as the right thing to do, the way it should be.
thewiru said:
meanwhile dub defenders usually just argue that they don't want to read subtitles or call you some variation of elitist or fanatical
No, the dubs I like I literally will argue the VAs fit the characters better, or the cultural context works better in English. Similarly how one could argue playing Ghost in Tsushima is better in Japanese, Romeo x Juliet or Cyberpunk Edgerunners is better in English. That is it. The only other "argument" is that I don't think people should be judged for watching dubs, and yeah, I mean reading can be an issue. Personally I am a very fast reader, sometimes to my own detriment however, not everyone reads fast. Not everyone wants to read while they are watching something, and even as someone who barely notices subs, as I read them, frankly that isn't how anime is supposed to be watched. meanwhile dub defenders usually just argue that they don't want to read subtitles or call you some variation of elitist or fanatical
And yeah, saying I am a better, smarter or whatever fan than you are, cause I do x, is snobbish. It's arguing that you have a character flaw simply, because you don't engage in the hobby in the same way, which again is dumb, and is taking the hobby too seriously.
thewiru said:
At the same time, if the only arguments to defend it are essentially variations of "I'm too lazy to do otherwise"
I mean in this quote you just basically argued fans who like dubs are lazy...maybe they just like it that way more. It's not hard to read subs, I am being about as lazy when I read them or watch without it. At the same time, if the only arguments to defend it are essentially variations of "I'm too lazy to do otherwise"
thewiru said:
I'll have a lot of difficulty to not believe sub purists when they say that subs "filter those who deserve to be filtered".
People who say that unironically I wish would get "filtered" from the community. It's just hostility and I bet they hold tons of other opinions where they pick fights needlessly with other fans. You aren't preserving anything, you are just being an asshole. No one is saying you need to watch dubs either, people just don't think you should be a sanctimonious jerk if someone admits to watching them, which IRL again no one unironically would say to a fan you need to filtered. Cause IRL isn't the anti social internet where malice breeds. Like I mean that Mike Tyson quote fits a lot of conversations I have had on the internet, especially in fandom communities. I'll have a lot of difficulty to not believe sub purists when they say that subs "filter those who deserve to be filtered".
BilboBaggins365 said: No one is saying you need to watch dubs either I don't think that's the case either. It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd. People will use dubbed clips in their videos, talk about English actors, will prioritize anime which as been dubbed, etc I'm being excluded from all those conversations, and I already complain how little conversations about anime I have access to. "Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations" YES, THAT'S HOW IT IS, THAT SADLY HOW IT HAS TO BE. There's no middle-ground, you're either the with the boot on someone's head or someone's boot in yours, so I want my side to win because of that. Because from all those years and experiences, I consider the sub crowd to be closer to me, to be closer to the aspects of the community which I like. Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like. Standing here I realize You are just like me Trying to make history But who’s to judge The right from wrong When our guard is down I think we’ll both agree That Violence breeds violence But in the end it has to be this way It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird". I'm arguing with one right now, BTW. |
May 5, 1:50 AM
#53
Reply to thewiru
BilboBaggins365 said:
For instance, as someone who has gotten a lot more into reading, does it matter that I listened to an audiobook, versus another person who read it in their own internal monologue?
For instance, as someone who has gotten a lot more into reading, does it matter that I listened to an audiobook, versus another person who read it in their own internal monologue?
Can't answer that, since I don't know much about reading.
People are heavily opinionated on that, though.
BilboBaggins365 said:
I mean that isn't the exact same experiance however, at the end of the day, we yes can still discuss the story, which is what matters. That is literally all you are describing.
I mean that isn't the exact same experiance however, at the end of the day, we yes can still discuss the story, which is what matters. That is literally all you are describing.
Uhm, I don't like that argument, though.
Technically, someone who read the plot on Wikipedia or via TikToks can also "discuss the story", and that's how the Jujutsu Kaisen fanbase was born.
BilboBaggins365 said:
There is no "RIGHT" way. There is just different ways. Cause objectively, if we want to use that word, the right way to watch anime, is to watch it RAW. So unless you plan to learn Japanese fluently you aren't watching it "RIGHT" either. Fact is subs lose subtext all the time, plenty of jokes are just not going to be understood, even if they are spelled out, and frankly, going through older sub translations makes you question some of the choices, some fansubbers had, even as someone who doesn't know the language.
There is no "RIGHT" way. There is just different ways. Cause objectively, if we want to use that word, the right way to watch anime, is to watch it RAW. So unless you plan to learn Japanese fluently you aren't watching it "RIGHT" either. Fact is subs lose subtext all the time, plenty of jokes are just not going to be understood, even if they are spelled out, and frankly, going through older sub translations makes you question some of the choices, some fansubbers had, even as someone who doesn't know the language.
You get better over time.
I don't know Japanese, yet even I can tell when the subtitles are wrong and what they should be sometimes.
I would also say that you learn that quickly: When I watched Zero no Tsukaima in 2014, there was one line which didn't have subs, yet which I knew exactly what the characters were saying.
BilboBaggins365 said:
No, the dubs I like I literally will argue the VAs fit the characters better, or the cultural context works better in English. Similarly how one could argue playing Ghost in Tsushima is better in Japanese, Romeo x Juliet or Cyberpunk Edgerunners is better in English. That is it.
No, the dubs I like I literally will argue the VAs fit the characters better, or the cultural context works better in English. Similarly how one could argue playing Ghost in Tsushima is better in Japanese, Romeo x Juliet or Cyberpunk Edgerunners is better in English. That is it.
OK, now THAT'S a valid argument.
And it's why this one is a valid argument that this one
BilboBaggins365 said:
I don't think people should be judged for watching dubs
isn't.I don't think people should be judged for watching dubs
You justified your position, made arguments in favor of it, and that's how it should be.
People who watch subs don't ask "to not be judged by watching subs", they do it like you just did, they justify their view.
BilboBaggins365 said:
and is taking the hobby too seriously.
Once again: and is taking the hobby too seriously.
thewiru said:
I'm sorry for being an otaku in an otaku website, I promise not to do it again.
I'm sorry for being an otaku in an otaku website, I promise not to do it again.
BilboBaggins365 said:
I mean in this quote you just basically argued fans who like dubs are lazy
I mean in this quote you just basically argued fans who like dubs are lazy
I didn't though, I wrote this because I was arguing that on Twitter with some people today and they themselves told me that.
BilboBaggins365 said:
Cause IRL isn't the anti social internet where malice breeds.
Cause IRL isn't the anti social internet where malice breeds.
Why do people consider "The guy who ask you to name 5 songs if he see's you with a NIRVANA shirt" to be wrong?
I mean, that guy comes from IRL, though.
At this point I think it probably boils down to the way I was raised on the internet, like I discussed on Is the anime community like Dark Souls?, which made me grow up to be "A person strong enough to be able to defend their own views".
A couple weeks ago I had an experience where you could say a guy was "elitist" towards me, flexing their numbers.
I didn't start a campaign saying that "flexing your numbers is wrong", I was simply not intimidated by the guy, caught him in his BS and asked him to substantiate his claims. He wasn't able to, so he blocked.
https://x.com/SkySumisu/status/1913333643671376184
| @thewiru There's no way you're comparing someone only watching anime clips to someone who watches the entire thing, but dubbed... And technically, the true way is to read the manga in Japanese... You know, since the anime is subject to changing things... You actually started that argument because you were offended that the guy said that an anime with a naked woman sexualized her less than current anime with teenage girls. |
May 5, 1:52 AM
#54
Reply to thewiru
BilboBaggins365 said:
No one is saying you need to watch dubs either
No one is saying you need to watch dubs either
I don't think that's the case either.
It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd. People will use dubbed clips in their videos, talk about English actors, will prioritize anime which as been dubbed, etc
I'm being excluded from all those conversations, and I already complain how little conversations about anime I have access to.
"Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations"
YES, THAT'S HOW IT IS, THAT SADLY HOW IT HAS TO BE.
There's no middle-ground, you're either the with the boot on someone's head or someone's boot in yours, so I want my side to win because of that.
Because from all those years and experiences, I consider the sub crowd to be closer to me, to be closer to the aspects of the community which I like.
Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like.
Standing here
I realize
You are just like me
Trying to make history
But who’s to judge
The right from wrong
When our guard is down
I think we’ll both agree
That
Violence breeds violence
But in the end it has to be this way
I realize
You are just like me
Trying to make history
But who’s to judge
The right from wrong
When our guard is down
I think we’ll both agree
That
Violence breeds violence
But in the end it has to be this way
It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird".
I'm arguing with one right now, BTW.
| @thewiru No, I think you're just weird. "How can I be a better person?" And then you do this... |
May 5, 2:40 AM
#55
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
| @LuxuriousHeart To be honest his post lately are toxic and mean sprite before his attacks are philosophy but now angry all the time this what happens when you stay at toxic community they turn you into toxic some other user even advice him to take a break from Internet I want to give him advice, that he needs to be chill and level if he continues to be like this he turn out into a "Emperor without a Kingdom" |
Kisaragi_TokaMay 5, 6:07 AM
May 5, 3:12 AM
#56
Reply to Kisaragi_Toka
@LuxuriousHeart To be honest his post lately are toxic and mean sprite before his attacks are philosophy but now angry all the time this what happens when you stay at toxic community they turn you into toxic some other user even advice him to take a break from Internet
I want to give him advice, that he needs to be chill and level if he continues to be like this he turn out into a "Emperor without a Kingdom"
I want to give him advice, that he needs to be chill and level if he continues to be like this he turn out into a "Emperor without a Kingdom"
| @Kisaragi_Toka Kisaragi_Toka said: Emperor without a Kingdom A frightingly accurate metaphor |
May 5, 11:00 AM
#57
Reply to Kisaragi_Toka
@LuxuriousHeart To be honest his post lately are toxic and mean sprite before his attacks are philosophy but now angry all the time this what happens when you stay at toxic community they turn you into toxic some other user even advice him to take a break from Internet
I want to give him advice, that he needs to be chill and level if he continues to be like this he turn out into a "Emperor without a Kingdom"
I want to give him advice, that he needs to be chill and level if he continues to be like this he turn out into a "Emperor without a Kingdom"
| @Kisaragi_Toka He really should just take a break. Perhaps get some hobbies that aren't related to anime or video games. Creative hobbies like cooking, art, sewing, writing, etc. Or physical hobbies like skating, biking, hiking, etc. I don't know... |
May 5, 11:16 AM
#58
Reply to thewiru
Bear in mind that I WANT more people to watch anime, but I want the type of people who I think aren't being appealed to.
I feel that recently — and dubbing helps with that — everything is getting invested on that image of every anime being a battle shounen, while I feel that showing other types of shows you could attract some more "interesting" types of people to it.
It's just that it also works as a nice filter: If someone can handle subs, they'll go far. If they don't, then they're NGMI.
I feel that recently — and dubbing helps with that — everything is getting invested on that image of every anime being a battle shounen, while I feel that showing other types of shows you could attract some more "interesting" types of people to it.
It's just that it also works as a nice filter: If someone can handle subs, they'll go far. If they don't, then they're NGMI.
| @thewiru gatekeeping sucks. "but I want the type of people who I think aren't being appealed to." i equate gatekeeping with racial Segregation. they're the same in my mind. the idea that separate from 'me' but equal for 'them' is evil. |
May 5, 11:28 AM
#59
Reply to Hiyajo-san
fallout45 said:
Some commenters on the sub vs dub debate are really hateful and crucify those who watch dubs saying "You're not a real anime fan if you watch dubs".
Some commenters on the sub vs dub debate are really hateful and crucify those who watch dubs saying "You're not a real anime fan if you watch dubs".
fallout45 said:
Unfortunately it feels as though some extreme fans are really mean and nasty about the whole thing.
Unfortunately it feels as though some extreme fans are really mean and nasty about the whole thing.
This is just one of the many instances of wannabe elitist gatekeeping arrogant pricks trying to belittle (new) fans in order to feel superior. They claim the english dub being inferior although most of them are not in a position to judge since this would require to be fluent in both japanese and english and actually watching both versions.
As an example they might bring up 1-2 modern dubs or refer to the indeed usual low quality dub of old shows (why bother putting an effort into dubbing a supposed kids' show).
fallout45 said:
There's also localization issues, but regardless I still get the gist of a series even if there are some changes done.
There's also localization issues, but regardless I still get the gist of a series even if there are some changes done.
Subs can be effected by localisation as well. In order to avoid this one needs to learn japanese and start watching raw.
fallout45 said:
How much more a fan do you need to be regardless of your language preference?
How much more a fan do you need to be regardless of your language preference?
I think this depends more on the point in time you got into anime. As you know dubs were less common back then and I guess some people just developed a habit of watching subs and stucked to it like myself.
| @Hiyajo-san "I think this depends more on the point in time you got into anime. As you know dubs were less common back then and I guess some people just developed a habit of watching subs and stucked to it like myself." are you talking about Pre-2000 or Post-2000? i started watching anime in the US in 1990. DUBS were it. period. anime VHS tapes made in the US were rare, DVDs even rarer. heck the 1st DUB DVD in a store i personally remember seeing of anime was Gundam Wing. trying to sell anything anime subbed back in the 70's, 80's, or 90's??? nah, i don't remember any. but that's just me. post 2000 with Napster, filesharing, camrips, disk crackers, fansubs, then the grey-web sites streaming 'official' subs (does everybody forget Crunchyroll was FIRST a copyright violating fansubbing site?), then the official streamers/providers like Sentai Filmworks' HIDIVE, Anime! Network, Funimation, CartoonNetwork... anime exploded worldwide due to the internet and subs proliferated like mushrooms after a rainstorm. |
May 5, 11:35 AM
#60
Reply to Zarutaku
Probably because dubs are a different product, imagine instead of the voices, the original soundtrack got replaced by a different one, or the original animation got replaced by a different one, or the original story got replaced by a different one.
| @Zarutaku that is a totally out in the middle of nowhere opinion. you're just making up nonsense examples. NOBODY would obliterate the SHOW ITSELF... because nobody in JAPAN would allow that to happen FOR LEGAL REASONS AND ARTISTIC INTEGRITY! using your example? nobody should watch any adaptation in visual media of a printed one. because the adapters are REPLACING the original text based and drawn picture based 'page' with live action actors or speaking voice actors and animated pictures. |
May 5, 11:36 AM
#61
| Short answer: Negative experience with dub watchers. Watching subs shows respect for the original culture — dubs aren’t evil, but dub watchers often fall into Acedia and shallow criticism. Watching dubs isn't wrong per se — I have no issue with people who prefer to enjoy anime in a way that's more accessible to them. But words have influence. As the saying goes "to translate is to betray", not because translation is evil, because something is always lost : cultural nuances, subtleties of the original language. The real issue is many dub watchers don’t stop at enjoying anime their way — they often openly criticize Japanese culture itself. They're often the first to spout dismissive nonsense such as "Why don't they drop their archaic symbols already?" or "There’s too much fan service!" without making the effort to understand the culture. To me, this attitude shows a lack of respect born from ignorance and laziness - pure Acedia at work. Sub watching isn’t about elitism — it’s about respect. It's a small but meaningful step toward linguistic humility and cultural acceptance. Refusing to make that step feeds fear of the unknown and the foreign. It's easier to mock or distort what you never tried to grasp. I'm not trying to be mean or rude. Not all dub watchers are immature or xenophobic; but comfort over curiosity leads to silent disrespect. My advice? If you care about the medium, try to hear it in its own subbed voice first. You might discover more than an anime. |
There is only one truth in this world かわいいは正義 Also, robots are your friends ✿❀(*ᴗ͈ˬᴗ͈)ꕤ*.゚⋆˚✿˖° Check our anime affinity, Senpai! Fellow cute girl lovers FR accepted. Watch NGNL, ฅ^•ﻌ•^ฅ you bastard~~desu Yuri is life. Now, break a sweat. ★May the stars shine upon you.★ |
May 5, 11:45 AM
#62
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@Zarutaku that is a totally out in the middle of nowhere opinion. you're just making up nonsense examples. NOBODY would obliterate the SHOW ITSELF... because nobody in JAPAN would allow that to happen FOR LEGAL REASONS AND ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!
using your example? nobody should watch any adaptation in visual media of a printed one. because the adapters are REPLACING the original text based and drawn picture based 'page' with live action actors or speaking voice actors and animated pictures.
using your example? nobody should watch any adaptation in visual media of a printed one. because the adapters are REPLACING the original text based and drawn picture based 'page' with live action actors or speaking voice actors and animated pictures.
KiliianSleipnir said: NOBODY would obliterate the SHOW ITSELF... because nobody in JAPAN would allow that to happen FOR LEGAL REASONS AND ARTISTIC INTEGRITY! Same could be said about dubs, but the reason they exist is because there's a demand, so there's profit to be made, that's why they allow dubs but not the other things I mentioned, making a fortune is more important to the producers than artistic integrity. |
DesuMaiden said: Nobody resembles me physically because I don't even physically exist. |
May 5, 11:47 AM
#63
Reply to GrumbleDango
Preferring the dub feels a bit xenophobic to me, but I would never bully someone for watching the dub. I just don't want to hear someone's criticism of an anime when they've only ever seen it dubbed.
| @GrumbleDango "I just don't want to hear someone's criticism of an anime when they've only ever seen it dubbed." that is a pretty dumb take on the discussion. what if somebody watching the dub is discussing the soundtrack? or the animation types/style/quality, or the art that was used, or the sound effects/foley, or the locations, or anything that ISN'T the foreign language screenplay and those foreign voice actors? |
May 5, 11:53 AM
#64
| Hate is the wrong word. I won't hate a person for simply choosing to watch an anime dubbed, though I do consider that to be the wrong way to approach foreign language media (it's insulting, honestly). I may not like it, but you're free to watch it in whatever fashion you like. No one cares. You do you. It only becomes hate when you find... those dub watchers. The dub-only watchers. Watching a dub is one thing, but refusing to watch anything that is not dubbed in your language is terrible. I won't claim that you are not an anime fan for liking dubs, there could be legitimate reasons you may like them, but I will say that you are not an anime fan if you're a dub-only watcher. Being a dub-only watcher means you're avoiding the vast majority of anime, as the majority do not have dubs, so at that point you can hardly consider yourself a fan. It gets worse when you come across the more aggressive and insecure dub-only watchers. I can't stand those insecure dub watchers who harass anime fans. As for me, I'll stick to subs for now. Eventually I'll be able to watch anime raw. By then, I will have greater access to more anime, while dub watchers are stuck with whatever few scraps are tossed their way. They don't have much anime. |
May 5, 12:01 PM
#65
Reply to GrumbleDango
LoveLetterAnime said:
Xenophobic implies that the dub watcher has a prejudice towards Japan, how can you say this about them for just wanting to watch in their own language?
Xenophobic implies that the dub watcher has a prejudice towards Japan, how can you say this about them for just wanting to watch in their own language?
Exactly, it seems like an aversion to hearing the language of a different culture. To go to such lengths as to entirely redub something that is perfectly fine as is, just because people don't like to hear a different language than their own, feels wrong to me. I just like to be open-minded towards different cultures and languages.
| @GrumbleDango "it seems like an aversion to hearing the language of a different culture. To go to such lengths as to entirely redub something that is perfectly fine as is, just because people don't like to hear a different language than their own, feels wrong to me. " so when 'Fox Spirit Matchmaker' was remade IN Japan 100% do you think that was xenophobic of the Japanese? or more than one donghua gets a Japanese dub? or folks outside of China/Asia etc. just don't like listening to Mandarin or are more used to hearing Japanese are xenophobic? English dub/printed translations are the 100% largest reason otaku culture has spread worldwide as fast as it has. think on it a second, other than Hollywood and US TV shows and American/British books... what has spread further and faster than Japan's otaku culture? books. anime. Godzilla movies. manga. the whole thing. English is the most widely spoken language in the world, with approximately 1.35 billion speakers (native and non-native combined). it is spoken by about 17% of the global population, it is the official language of 75 countries and is used in 60% of multinational companies. Additionally, English is the most prolific written/spoken language on the internet, with nearly 58% of content available in English. sure, that is today... decades ago the numerals will be different... if Japan didn't 'open the door' by putting translations etc. on the table during negotiations, would otaku culture beyond 'fan made stuffs' even exist outside their borders today? |
May 5, 12:02 PM
#66
| I watch both dub and sub. I don't really mind if it's subbed or dubbed. I do feel like dub is comfortable to watch than sub(yes, skill issue ik 🙄) I'm not a native English speaker so I don't think it's that bad. I actually like english dub. The dubs in my language is not at all good. Growing up watching those I feel like eng dub are better by a LOT. While sub is 'authentic' and is the true form, I don't think people should judge someone for their choice of comfort. Some people may do other things while watching anime(I sometime play some anime when writing school works and stuff to fill the void). The people who judge are the problem. Like, the people who watch what they want are minding their own business, enjoying stuff however they want. If you judge it, aren't YOU the problem? or even 'worse' than the person you are judging? please do think. English duds ain't even that bad. I do agree Sub is the best, yes, no question. Dub isn't that bad. What do you think manga is bro? do you guys read manga in authentic Japanese? if people cared about authenticity, shouldn't they be against translations of manga? Like come on, the Japanese they use in anime is not much how real Japanese people speak either 💀 Whatever you do, people judge. Just ignore them watch what you are comfortable with ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
May 5, 12:06 PM
#67
thewiru said: In my experience, not really. People have preferences, some don't get audio books, others do, however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading. People are heavily opinionated on that, though. thewiru said: Well you can dislike the argument however, this argument is frankly crazyl. Are you seriously arguing watching a dub is the same as just reading a synopsis? Technically, someone who read the plot on Wikipedia or via TikToks can also "discuss the story", and that's how the Jujutsu Kaisen fanbase was born. thewiru said: Yeah but you shouldn't have to "justify it". It's a personal preference, the justification could be "IDK I just like it", and that would be fair. Just because I have a more "valid" reason, doesn't mean others need to share that. It's not a logical debate, it's about feelings and emotions. You justified your position, made arguments in favor of it, and that's how it should be. thewiru said: Okay...that wasn't exactly clear, at least to me. I didn't though, I wrote this because I was arguing that on Twitter with some people today and they themselves told me that. thewiru said: If you got up in someone's face, yelling "poser" to someone who is just wearing their shirt for aesthetic appeal, that would be consider very improper. Plus I don't think this is a fair argument. Watching dubs, isn't a lack of anime knowledge, beyond the many shows that aren't dubbed, which most anime fans don't watch anyway. You can have a significant library of experience as a dub watcher. Why do people consider "The guy who ask you to name 5 songs if he see's you with a NIRVANA shirt" to be wrong? thewiru said: I mean I would say acting like an ass to people is wrong. Sure you shouldn't be "intimidated" by others online, however, I mean we aren't at a debate club. Even when discussing disagreements, I think people should give the benefit of the doubt, and have a sense of graciousness and kindness, as ideal and utopian that hope would be. Sure, respond to whatever claim it is; however, he still in the wrong regardless. didn't start a campaign saying that "flexing your numbers is wrong", I was simply not intimidated by the guy, caught him in his BS and asked him to substantiate his claims. He wasn't able to, so he blocked. thewiru said: ....I mean I just use whatever name is the easiest. I am not calling Attack On Titan by its Japanese name, Your Lie in April is not Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso. I am not calling Ghost in the Shell Koukaku Kidoutai, and I almost have never seen anyone in the English fandom refer to it by that name. Like sure if it's easy like Yuru Camp, I will use the Japanese name. And again, I watch primarily subbed and I use English names all the time. It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd. thewiru said: So you talk to someone about an anime, you go back and forth, and then you decide to what? Cut conversation with them once you found out they watched the show dubbed? I mean you are free to do so, I think it's quite irrational though. "Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations" thewiru said: I tend to have negative impressions of people who in general care about it. Whether that be sub elitists or dub watchers that feel they have to constantly justify themselves by depreciating watching in subbed. So I guess that works for me. Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like. thewiru said: Most "normies" literally don't care, and aren't online getting into debates like this lol.It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird". |
BilboBaggins365May 5, 12:26 PM
May 5, 12:08 PM
#68
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@GrumbleDango "it seems like an aversion to hearing the language of a different culture. To go to such lengths as to entirely redub something that is perfectly fine as is, just because people don't like to hear a different language than their own, feels wrong to me. "
so when 'Fox Spirit Matchmaker' was remade IN Japan 100% do you think that was xenophobic of the Japanese? or more than one donghua gets a Japanese dub? or folks outside of China/Asia etc. just don't like listening to Mandarin or are more used to hearing Japanese are xenophobic?
English dub/printed translations are the 100% largest reason otaku culture has spread worldwide as fast as it has. think on it a second, other than Hollywood and US TV shows and American/British books... what has spread further and faster than Japan's otaku culture? books. anime. Godzilla movies. manga. the whole thing. English is the most widely spoken language in the world, with approximately 1.35 billion speakers (native and non-native combined). it is spoken by about 17% of the global population, it is the official language of 75 countries and is used in 60% of multinational companies. Additionally, English is the most prolific written/spoken language on the internet, with nearly 58% of content available in English. sure, that is today... decades ago the numerals will be different... if Japan didn't 'open the door' by putting translations etc. on the table during negotiations, would otaku culture beyond 'fan made stuffs' even exist outside their borders today?
so when 'Fox Spirit Matchmaker' was remade IN Japan 100% do you think that was xenophobic of the Japanese? or more than one donghua gets a Japanese dub? or folks outside of China/Asia etc. just don't like listening to Mandarin or are more used to hearing Japanese are xenophobic?
English dub/printed translations are the 100% largest reason otaku culture has spread worldwide as fast as it has. think on it a second, other than Hollywood and US TV shows and American/British books... what has spread further and faster than Japan's otaku culture? books. anime. Godzilla movies. manga. the whole thing. English is the most widely spoken language in the world, with approximately 1.35 billion speakers (native and non-native combined). it is spoken by about 17% of the global population, it is the official language of 75 countries and is used in 60% of multinational companies. Additionally, English is the most prolific written/spoken language on the internet, with nearly 58% of content available in English. sure, that is today... decades ago the numerals will be different... if Japan didn't 'open the door' by putting translations etc. on the table during negotiations, would otaku culture beyond 'fan made stuffs' even exist outside their borders today?
| @KiliianSleipnir This is a good point. You are correct. However, dubs should only be used to entice potential viewers. Nobody should still be watching dubs once they've been ensnared by anime. People need to learn to move on to subs, or even better, raw anime. |
May 5, 12:13 PM
#69
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
People are heavily opinionated on that, though.
In my experience, not really. People have preferences, some don't get audio books, others do, however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading. People are heavily opinionated on that, though.
thewiru said:
Technically, someone who read the plot on Wikipedia or via TikToks can also "discuss the story", and that's how the Jujutsu Kaisen fanbase was born.
Well you can dislike the argument however, this argument is frankly crazyl. Are you seriously arguing watching a dub is the same as just reading a synopsis? Technically, someone who read the plot on Wikipedia or via TikToks can also "discuss the story", and that's how the Jujutsu Kaisen fanbase was born.
thewiru said:
You justified your position, made arguments in favor of it, and that's how it should be.
Yeah but you shouldn't have to "justify it". It's a personal preference, the justification could be "IDK I just like it", and that would be fair. Just because I have a more "valid" reason, doesn't mean others need to share that. It's not a logical debate, it's about feelings and emotions. You justified your position, made arguments in favor of it, and that's how it should be.
thewiru said:
I didn't though, I wrote this because I was arguing that on Twitter with some people today and they themselves told me that.
Okay...that wasn't exactly clear, at least to me. I didn't though, I wrote this because I was arguing that on Twitter with some people today and they themselves told me that.
thewiru said:
Why do people consider "The guy who ask you to name 5 songs if he see's you with a NIRVANA shirt" to be wrong?
If you got up in someone's face, yelling "poser" to someone who is just wearing their shirt for aesthetic appeal, that would be consider very improper. Plus I don't think this is a fair argument. Watching dubs, isn't a lack of anime knowledge, beyond the many shows that aren't dubbed, which most anime fans don't watch anyway. You can have a significant library of experience as a dub watcher. Why do people consider "The guy who ask you to name 5 songs if he see's you with a NIRVANA shirt" to be wrong?
thewiru said:
didn't start a campaign saying that "flexing your numbers is wrong", I was simply not intimidated by the guy, caught him in his BS and asked him to substantiate his claims. He wasn't able to, so he blocked.
I mean I would say acting like an ass to people is wrong. Sure you shouldn't be "intimidated" by others online, however, I mean we aren't at a debate club. Even when discussing disagreements, I think people should give the benefit of the doubt, and have a sense of graciousness and kindness, as ideal and utopian that hope would be. Sure, respond to whatever claim it is; however, he still in the wrong regardless. didn't start a campaign saying that "flexing your numbers is wrong", I was simply not intimidated by the guy, caught him in his BS and asked him to substantiate his claims. He wasn't able to, so he blocked.
thewiru said:
It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd.
....I mean I just use whatever name is the easiest. I am not calling Attack On Titan by its Japanese name, Your Lie in April is not Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso. I am not calling Ghost in the Shell Koukaku Kidoutai, and I almost have never seen anyone in the English fandom refer to it by that name. Like sure if it's easy like Yuru Camp, I will use the Japanese name. And again, I watch primarily subbed and I use English names all the time. It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd.
thewiru said:
"Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations"
So you talk to someone about an anime, you go back and forth, and then you decide to what? Cut conversation with them once you found out they watched the show dubbed? I mean you are free to do so, I think it's quite irrational though. "Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations"
thewiru said:
Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like.
I tend to have negative impressions of people who in general care about it. Whether that be sub elitists or dub watchers that feel they have to constantly justify themselves by depreciating watching in subbed. So I guess that works for me. Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like.
thewiru said:
It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird".
Most "normies" literally don't care, and aren't online getting into debates like this lol.It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird".
BilboBaggins365 said: In my experience, not really. People have preferences, some don't get audio books, others do, however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading. Technically, you have not read an audiobook unless you have read the book along with the audiobook. You can say you have listened to or heard the audiobook, however. Yes, this may seem overly pedantic. What's important is that listening to an audiobook is as valid as reading a book. As long as you still own a physical copy of the book to turn its pages, nothing is being lost in the transition of mediums. At least for most books. I'm sure someone is going to name some book that absolutely can't be translated over to an audiobook somehow. |
May 5, 12:19 PM
#70
| Mainstream battleshounen or powerfantasy anime, like JJK, Demon Slayer, Solo Leveling and now To Be Hero X, are not too complex or dialogheavy, so those can be totally fine with dubs, you won't lose anithing in translation, but you can focus on more superficial aspects, like the 'shiny' animation. Not like those have any other purpose, than looking good... |
May 5, 12:19 PM
#71
Reply to Purple_Gh0st24
BilboBaggins365 said:
In my experience, not really. People have preferences, some don't get audio books, others do, however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading.
In my experience, not really. People have preferences, some don't get audio books, others do, however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading.
Technically, you have not read an audiobook unless you have read the book along with the audiobook. You can say you have listened to or heard the audiobook, however. Yes, this may seem overly pedantic. What's important is that listening to an audiobook is as valid as reading a book. As long as you still own a physical copy of the book to turn its pages, nothing is being lost in the transition of mediums. At least for most books. I'm sure someone is going to name some book that absolutely can't be translated over to an audiobook somehow.
| @Purple_Gh0st24 Yeah I mean, look there probably are people out there that will argue, hey reading actually ensures a better retention. Personally, I actually find listening allows me to retain more, because I have a bad habit of reading too fast, and listening to a more deliberate reader, speaking out loud encourages me to consider every word. I usually get an audiobook and digital book when I am reading though, since sometimes I don't want to listen. For others though? They may find audiobooks go too fast, and therefore they miss things. So yeah, I mean technically you aren't "reading" it. Though again, the vast majority of readers are not going to say, "you listened instead of read Wheel of Time? How dare you! We can't talk about the book now." |
BilboBaggins365May 5, 12:24 PM
May 5, 12:27 PM
#72
BilboBaggins365 said: So yeah, I mean technically you aren't "reading" it. Though again, no one is going to say, you listened instead of read Wheel of Time? How dare you. We can't talk about the book now. lol Reminds me how I poke fun of my Father all the time who went legally blind in the 90s when ever he talks about a book he 'consumed' recently. Since he is blind he technically can't read anything anymore using his eyes. So he is forced to listen to audio books all the time instead. So tell him everytime I talk to him on the phone, "You didn't read shit father, all you did was just listened to some random Woman's voice reading the book to you.". lol |
ColourWheelMay 5, 12:31 PM
May 5, 12:30 PM
#73
Reply to ColourWheel
BilboBaggins365 said:
So yeah, I mean technically you aren't "reading" it. Though again, no one is going to say, you listened instead of read Wheel of Time? How dare you. We can't talk about the book now.
So yeah, I mean technically you aren't "reading" it. Though again, no one is going to say, you listened instead of read Wheel of Time? How dare you. We can't talk about the book now.
lol Reminds me how I poke fun of my Father all the time who went legally blind in the 90s when ever he talks about a book he 'consumed' recently. Since he is blind he technically can't read anything anymore using his eyes. So he is forced to listen to audio books all the time instead. So tell him everytime I talk to him on the phone, "You didn't read shit father, all you did was just listened to some random Woman's voice reading the book to you.". lol
| @ColourWheel I mean audiobooks are their own art. Honestly I could see it as a way to yeah help out those who are legally blind, and frankly get more people into reading who may be more skeptical. Since I got into Red Rising with Graphic Audio, and I found out about audio dramas, I really hope those start to catch on more, for bigger books. Kinda sad, I didn't know Mistborn had one either. They really feel more like a TV show, due to the variety of VAs and SFX. I don't mind they are double the cost either, they do wonders for immersion. |
May 5, 12:40 PM
#74
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@thewiru
There's no way you're comparing someone only watching anime clips to someone who watches the entire thing, but dubbed...
And technically, the true way is to read the manga in Japanese... You know, since the anime is subject to changing things...
You actually started that argument because you were offended that the guy said that an anime with a naked woman sexualized her less than current anime with teenage girls.
There's no way you're comparing someone only watching anime clips to someone who watches the entire thing, but dubbed...
And technically, the true way is to read the manga in Japanese... You know, since the anime is subject to changing things...
You actually started that argument because you were offended that the guy said that an anime with a naked woman sexualized her less than current anime with teenage girls.
LuxuriousHeart said: There's no way you're comparing someone only watching anime clips to someone who watches the entire thing, but dubbed... Well duh, because I'm not. I'm criticizing the "As long as they know the plot, it's OK" argument. LuxuriousHeart said: And technically, the true way is to read the manga in Japanese... You know, since the anime is subject to changing things... Indeed, watching the anime makes you able to analyze and judge the anime, not the manga. But if your objective is to just analyze the anime and not the manga, that's fine. At the same time, it's not like VN fans are not begging people to read the original all the time and calling them "secondaries", so indeed that happens. LuxuriousHeart said: You actually started that argument because you were offended that the guy said that an anime with a naked woman sexualized her less than current anime with teenage girls. Because it stems from misinformation, and I don't like misinformation. I was already arguing with people on the internet over this same type of misinformation roughly a decade ago, so... |
May 5, 12:44 PM
#75
Reply to Zarutaku
KiliianSleipnir said:
NOBODY would obliterate the SHOW ITSELF... because nobody in JAPAN would allow that to happen FOR LEGAL REASONS AND ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!
NOBODY would obliterate the SHOW ITSELF... because nobody in JAPAN would allow that to happen FOR LEGAL REASONS AND ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!
Same could be said about dubs, but the reason they exist is because there's a demand, so there's profit to be made, that's why they allow dubs but not the other things I mentioned, making a fortune is more important to the producers than artistic integrity.
| @Zarutaku i've said it before for over 40 years and i'll keep saying it. RICH SHAMING IS MORONIC. making a profit? or increasing profits? it is a free market economic system outside of socialism and communism. without profit, without a marketplace, without an exchange of 'something for something' art is just somebody making themselves happy with their hobby. musicians want to make it big, or make enough to survive, or make enough to cover expenses. artists of every stripe want to be sold and appreciated and admired (either themselves or their works) in some small way. the starving artist will DIE unless they have a 'real job' or public assistance or is already rich and not really starving. without dubs, translations, fansubs, streaming, cable TV networks etc. OTAKU CULTURE WOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT JAPAN'S BORDERS. ever. only people who visited/lived in Japan for a period of time or got it off a satellite dish or had relatives by blood or marriage from there, would know a thing about it. that is DEFINITELY a smaller audience outside Japan's borders. artistic integrity. ohhh that ancient and antiquated and Stone Age Mentality. inside your mind or any creative IS THE ONLY INTEGRITY YOU HAVE. PERIOD! the moment you take that idea and externalize it? you lose the first bits of integrity. because it is NO LONGER the pure ideal idea that was in your mind. printed words. paint. canvas. walls. paper. pencils. clay. stone. metal. a musical instrument. your voice. dancing. EVERY THING lacks something compared to what was in your head. additionally, market share for the entirety of otaku products. there is an increasing influx of foreign cash since the 1980's. it STILL hasn't hit 50% of the money moving around. but. the majority of the money moving into and out of the whole industry (all inclusive) is still Japan and Asia. so guess what? the fortunes? are still domestic. but hey, a few Dollars etc. more coming in so that everybody connected to that 'item' being sold can live more comfortably? also, just JUST legal anime streaming? know who owns THE WORLDWIDE MONOPOLY??? SONY Jp. put THAT fact in your hat and think on it. Crunchyroll, merged into Funimation, Madman in Australia, Wakanim in EU/France/Germany merged into Crunchy, EU's division of Viz Media streaming bought by SONY Jp and merged into Crunchy. Crunchy already covered almost all of South America before SONY Jp. bought it and expanded into more countries. \shrug/ who has more artistic integrity than a Japanese corporation? oh, and one of the companies putting some of the biggest bankrolls out there to make anime? SONY Jp. through Aniplex. |
May 5, 12:44 PM
#76
BilboBaggins365 said: @ColourWheel I mean audiobooks are their own art. Honestly I could see it as a way to yeah help out those who are legally blind, and frankly get more people into reading who may be more skeptical. Since I got into Red Rising with Graphic Audio, and I found out about audio dramas, I really hope those start to catch on more, for bigger books. Kinda sad, I didn't know Mistborn had one either. They really feel more like a TV show, due to the variety of VAs and SFX. I don't mind they are double the cost either, they do wonders for immersion. I can agree with that. Last time I was visiting my father we spent some time together drinking bottles of Soju and eating home made sushi. Often times he would end up popping in music or even an audio book to play as back ground ambience. One thing I particularly noticed was most of his audio books that I combed through once were all narrated by a woman with a very seductive voice. I think he had more interest in listening to who a book was being narrated by more so than the actual books themselves. lol |
May 5, 12:48 PM
#77
Reply to ColourWheel
BilboBaggins365 said:
@ColourWheel I mean audiobooks are their own art. Honestly I could see it as a way to yeah help out those who are legally blind, and frankly get more people into reading who may be more skeptical. Since I got into Red Rising with Graphic Audio, and I found out about audio dramas, I really hope those start to catch on more, for bigger books. Kinda sad, I didn't know Mistborn had one either. They really feel more like a TV show, due to the variety of VAs and SFX. I don't mind they are double the cost either, they do wonders for immersion.
@ColourWheel I mean audiobooks are their own art. Honestly I could see it as a way to yeah help out those who are legally blind, and frankly get more people into reading who may be more skeptical. Since I got into Red Rising with Graphic Audio, and I found out about audio dramas, I really hope those start to catch on more, for bigger books. Kinda sad, I didn't know Mistborn had one either. They really feel more like a TV show, due to the variety of VAs and SFX. I don't mind they are double the cost either, they do wonders for immersion.
I can agree with that. Last time I was visiting my father we spent some time together drinking bottles of Soju and eating home made sushi. Often times he would end up popping in music or even an audio book to play as back ground ambience. One thing I particularly noticed was most of his audio books that I combed through once were all narrated by a woman with a very seductive voice. I think he had more interest in listening to who a book was being narrated by more so than the actual books themselves. lol
ColourWheel said: Curious who they have narrating all those romantasy books now lol. Yeah... for that form of literature audiobooks probably could be even a greater benefit. One thing I particularly noticed was most of his audio books that I combed through once were all narrated by a woman with a very seductive voice. |
May 5, 12:50 PM
#78
| I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees. The 4Kids dub of Pokemon is different from the Original, for example. Like 90% of Dubs these days aren't anywhere near as bad as the old days, but that Stigma still remains. Dubs with slightly cringe slang is put on the same tier of shows editing out weapons or deleting entire episodes. Add a little Weaboo-ness (Japanese things are just better tm), And some elitism/desire to prove they're the best and most based at watching anime... Then you get "if you watch the dub you're not a REAL fan." |
May 5, 12:59 PM
#79
Reply to ColourWheel
BilboBaggins365 said:
@ColourWheel I mean audiobooks are their own art. Honestly I could see it as a way to yeah help out those who are legally blind, and frankly get more people into reading who may be more skeptical. Since I got into Red Rising with Graphic Audio, and I found out about audio dramas, I really hope those start to catch on more, for bigger books. Kinda sad, I didn't know Mistborn had one either. They really feel more like a TV show, due to the variety of VAs and SFX. I don't mind they are double the cost either, they do wonders for immersion.
@ColourWheel I mean audiobooks are their own art. Honestly I could see it as a way to yeah help out those who are legally blind, and frankly get more people into reading who may be more skeptical. Since I got into Red Rising with Graphic Audio, and I found out about audio dramas, I really hope those start to catch on more, for bigger books. Kinda sad, I didn't know Mistborn had one either. They really feel more like a TV show, due to the variety of VAs and SFX. I don't mind they are double the cost either, they do wonders for immersion.
I can agree with that. Last time I was visiting my father we spent some time together drinking bottles of Soju and eating home made sushi. Often times he would end up popping in music or even an audio book to play as back ground ambience. One thing I particularly noticed was most of his audio books that I combed through once were all narrated by a woman with a very seductive voice. I think he had more interest in listening to who a book was being narrated by more so than the actual books themselves. lol
ColourWheel said: One thing I particularly noticed was most of his audio books that I combed through once were all narrated by a woman with a very seductive voice. I think he had more interest in listening to who a book was being narrated by more so than the actual books themselves. lol Maybe you could use this to convince him to listen to someone read the entire Dark Souls wiki, if they have that kind of voice. There are a lot of potentials. |
May 5, 1:02 PM
#80
Reply to Purple_Gh0st24
@KiliianSleipnir This is a good point. You are correct. However, dubs should only be used to entice potential viewers. Nobody should still be watching dubs once they've been ensnared by anime. People need to learn to move on to subs, or even better, raw anime.
| @Purple_Gh0st24 "Nobody should still be watching dubs once they've been ensnared by anime. People need to learn to move on to subs, or even better, raw anime." no. just. no. that is gatekeeping and i've given my opinion in this thread about gatekeeping being equivalent to Racial Segregation. nobody, yourself included should state: SHOULD ONLY BE USED or NEED TO or NOBODY SHOULD. you're putting YOURSELF above, in front of, superior to, anybody else as a group or one person. your definition does NOT apply to anybody else. period. it should stay inside your head and never be externalized. 'they' are not 'you'. you have no right reason or ethics or morals or empathy or sympathy or any humanistic leanings if you're pushing your internal rhetoric upon somebody else. but hey, i'm doing the same thing to you by arguing my side from inside my head. at least i'm just trying to restrict one person from being an ass and spreading their assedness to multiple others. |
May 5, 1:08 PM
#81
Reply to BubblegumPatty
I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees. The 4Kids dub of Pokemon is different from the Original, for example. Like 90% of Dubs these days aren't anywhere near as bad as the old days, but that Stigma still remains. Dubs with slightly cringe slang is put on the same tier of shows editing out weapons or deleting entire episodes.
Add a little Weaboo-ness (Japanese things are just better tm), And some elitism/desire to prove they're the best and most based at watching anime... Then you get "if you watch the dub you're not a REAL fan."
Add a little Weaboo-ness (Japanese things are just better tm), And some elitism/desire to prove they're the best and most based at watching anime... Then you get "if you watch the dub you're not a REAL fan."
BubblegumPatty said: I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees. The most ironic thing about this is Anime without any sort of Dub that managed to get bootlegged or even sometimes on rare occasion get Officially released in the West had just as bad English subtitles created back before the turn of the century too, either officially or even fan made. I remember back in the early 90s randomly buying a few VHS Anime bootlegs to watch that were being sold at a comic book convention. Whoever created the subtitles that were hardcoded to the VHS tapes for the few copies of "Urusei Yatsura" episodes I bought clearly didn't understand Nihongo. Often times noticing entire lines of dialogue and phrasing being completely miss-interpreted or just down right not even close to what was actually being said in the episodes. lol For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol |
ColourWheelMay 5, 1:18 PM
May 5, 1:08 PM
#82
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@Zarutaku i've said it before for over 40 years and i'll keep saying it. RICH SHAMING IS MORONIC. making a profit? or increasing profits? it is a free market economic system outside of socialism and communism. without profit, without a marketplace, without an exchange of 'something for something' art is just somebody making themselves happy with their hobby. musicians want to make it big, or make enough to survive, or make enough to cover expenses. artists of every stripe want to be sold and appreciated and admired (either themselves or their works) in some small way. the starving artist will DIE unless they have a 'real job' or public assistance or is already rich and not really starving.
without dubs, translations, fansubs, streaming, cable TV networks etc. OTAKU CULTURE WOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT JAPAN'S BORDERS. ever. only people who visited/lived in Japan for a period of time or got it off a satellite dish or had relatives by blood or marriage from there, would know a thing about it. that is DEFINITELY a smaller audience outside Japan's borders.
artistic integrity. ohhh that ancient and antiquated and Stone Age Mentality. inside your mind or any creative IS THE ONLY INTEGRITY YOU HAVE. PERIOD! the moment you take that idea and externalize it? you lose the first bits of integrity. because it is NO LONGER the pure ideal idea that was in your mind. printed words. paint. canvas. walls. paper. pencils. clay. stone. metal. a musical instrument. your voice. dancing. EVERY THING lacks something compared to what was in your head.
additionally, market share for the entirety of otaku products. there is an increasing influx of foreign cash since the 1980's. it STILL hasn't hit 50% of the money moving around. but. the majority of the money moving into and out of the whole industry (all inclusive) is still Japan and Asia. so guess what? the fortunes? are still domestic. but hey, a few Dollars etc. more coming in so that everybody connected to that 'item' being sold can live more comfortably?
also, just JUST legal anime streaming? know who owns THE WORLDWIDE MONOPOLY??? SONY Jp. put THAT fact in your hat and think on it. Crunchyroll, merged into Funimation, Madman in Australia, Wakanim in EU/France/Germany merged into Crunchy, EU's division of Viz Media streaming bought by SONY Jp and merged into Crunchy. Crunchy already covered almost all of South America before SONY Jp. bought it and expanded into more countries. \shrug/ who has more artistic integrity than a Japanese corporation? oh, and one of the companies putting some of the biggest bankrolls out there to make anime? SONY Jp. through Aniplex.
without dubs, translations, fansubs, streaming, cable TV networks etc. OTAKU CULTURE WOULD HAVE NEVER LEFT JAPAN'S BORDERS. ever. only people who visited/lived in Japan for a period of time or got it off a satellite dish or had relatives by blood or marriage from there, would know a thing about it. that is DEFINITELY a smaller audience outside Japan's borders.
artistic integrity. ohhh that ancient and antiquated and Stone Age Mentality. inside your mind or any creative IS THE ONLY INTEGRITY YOU HAVE. PERIOD! the moment you take that idea and externalize it? you lose the first bits of integrity. because it is NO LONGER the pure ideal idea that was in your mind. printed words. paint. canvas. walls. paper. pencils. clay. stone. metal. a musical instrument. your voice. dancing. EVERY THING lacks something compared to what was in your head.
additionally, market share for the entirety of otaku products. there is an increasing influx of foreign cash since the 1980's. it STILL hasn't hit 50% of the money moving around. but. the majority of the money moving into and out of the whole industry (all inclusive) is still Japan and Asia. so guess what? the fortunes? are still domestic. but hey, a few Dollars etc. more coming in so that everybody connected to that 'item' being sold can live more comfortably?
also, just JUST legal anime streaming? know who owns THE WORLDWIDE MONOPOLY??? SONY Jp. put THAT fact in your hat and think on it. Crunchyroll, merged into Funimation, Madman in Australia, Wakanim in EU/France/Germany merged into Crunchy, EU's division of Viz Media streaming bought by SONY Jp and merged into Crunchy. Crunchy already covered almost all of South America before SONY Jp. bought it and expanded into more countries. \shrug/ who has more artistic integrity than a Japanese corporation? oh, and one of the companies putting some of the biggest bankrolls out there to make anime? SONY Jp. through Aniplex.
KiliianSleipnir said: RICH SHAMING IS MORONIC I didn't shame anyone, I just said how it is. Personally, I actually don't care that much if someone watches dubs, I just answered the topic question. |
DesuMaiden said: Nobody resembles me physically because I don't even physically exist. |
May 5, 1:12 PM
#83
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@Purple_Gh0st24 "Nobody should still be watching dubs once they've been ensnared by anime. People need to learn to move on to subs, or even better, raw anime."
no. just. no. that is gatekeeping and i've given my opinion in this thread about gatekeeping being equivalent to Racial Segregation. nobody, yourself included should state: SHOULD ONLY BE USED or NEED TO or NOBODY SHOULD. you're putting YOURSELF above, in front of, superior to, anybody else as a group or one person. your definition does NOT apply to anybody else. period. it should stay inside your head and never be externalized. 'they' are not 'you'. you have no right reason or ethics or morals or empathy or sympathy or any humanistic leanings if you're pushing your internal rhetoric upon somebody else.
but hey, i'm doing the same thing to you by arguing my side from inside my head. at least i'm just trying to restrict one person from being an ass and spreading their assedness to multiple others.
no. just. no. that is gatekeeping and i've given my opinion in this thread about gatekeeping being equivalent to Racial Segregation. nobody, yourself included should state: SHOULD ONLY BE USED or NEED TO or NOBODY SHOULD. you're putting YOURSELF above, in front of, superior to, anybody else as a group or one person. your definition does NOT apply to anybody else. period. it should stay inside your head and never be externalized. 'they' are not 'you'. you have no right reason or ethics or morals or empathy or sympathy or any humanistic leanings if you're pushing your internal rhetoric upon somebody else.
but hey, i'm doing the same thing to you by arguing my side from inside my head. at least i'm just trying to restrict one person from being an ass and spreading their assedness to multiple others.
| @KiliianSleipnir It is not as though anyone is forcing people to watch shows any particular way. No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want. Comparing that to racial segregation is... an odd choice. Is the government stopping you from watching anime the way you want to? Are they beating, imprisoning, and lynching you? Is your life under constant threat of violence over your anime preferences? Have people been murdered over this? It is tone-deaf to compare them. How ghastly. It is insulting to anyone whom has experienced segregation. This is an odd form of racism. "Should" as I used it does not mean "the government or big companies should enforce this," not that they could anyway. "Should" here means "this is more recommended." Is it gatekeeping to point out that a person who isn't fanatical about anime is not fanatical about anime? I think not. It's just stating the obvious. |
May 5, 1:15 PM
#84
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@Kisaragi_Toka He really should just take a break. Perhaps get some hobbies that aren't related to anime or video games. Creative hobbies like cooking, art, sewing, writing, etc. Or physical hobbies like skating, biking, hiking, etc. I don't know...
| @Kisaragi_Toka LuxuriousHeart said: He really should just take a break. Perhaps get some hobbies that aren't related to anime or video games. Creative hobbies like cooking, art, sewing, writing, etc. Or physical hobbies like skating, biking, hiking, etc. I don't know... I know that both of you are right, that I am — for some reason even I don't know — angrier than usual. But I really don't know how to enact those solutions, I really don't have any talents, IRL contacts nor I know any places, so I really can't, and don't know how to, "leave the internet". The truth is that I needs friends, people to talk to. |
May 5, 1:21 PM
#85
Reply to ColourWheel
BubblegumPatty said:
I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees.
I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees.
The most ironic thing about this is Anime without any sort of Dub that managed to get bootlegged or even sometimes on rare occasion get Officially released in the West had just as bad English subtitles created back before the turn of the century too, either officially or even fan made. I remember back in the early 90s randomly buying a few VHS Anime bootlegs to watch that were being sold at a comic book convention. Whoever created the subtitles that were hardcoded to the VHS tapes for the few copies of "Urusei Yatsura" episodes I bought clearly didn't understand Nihongo. Often times noticing entire lines of dialogue and phrasing being completely miss-interpreted or just down right not even close to what was actually being said in the episodes. lol
For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
| @ColourWheel Lmao True true. I'm glad I missed that bumpy phase where the Fansubs were hardly much better, and twice as hard to find. Pick your poison: "Eat your American Hamburger Nick" Dubs, or "Purple Monkey Dishwasher" Subs. We've made so much progress. |
May 5, 1:26 PM
#86
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@Hiyajo-san "I think this depends more on the point in time you got into anime. As you know dubs were less common back then and I guess some people just developed a habit of watching subs and stucked to it like myself."
are you talking about Pre-2000 or Post-2000? i started watching anime in the US in 1990. DUBS were it. period. anime VHS tapes made in the US were rare, DVDs even rarer. heck the 1st DUB DVD in a store i personally remember seeing of anime was Gundam Wing. trying to sell anything anime subbed back in the 70's, 80's, or 90's??? nah, i don't remember any. but that's just me.
post 2000 with Napster, filesharing, camrips, disk crackers, fansubs, then the grey-web sites streaming 'official' subs (does everybody forget Crunchyroll was FIRST a copyright violating fansubbing site?), then the official streamers/providers like Sentai Filmworks' HIDIVE, Anime! Network, Funimation, CartoonNetwork... anime exploded worldwide due to the internet and subs proliferated like mushrooms after a rainstorm.
are you talking about Pre-2000 or Post-2000? i started watching anime in the US in 1990. DUBS were it. period. anime VHS tapes made in the US were rare, DVDs even rarer. heck the 1st DUB DVD in a store i personally remember seeing of anime was Gundam Wing. trying to sell anything anime subbed back in the 70's, 80's, or 90's??? nah, i don't remember any. but that's just me.
post 2000 with Napster, filesharing, camrips, disk crackers, fansubs, then the grey-web sites streaming 'official' subs (does everybody forget Crunchyroll was FIRST a copyright violating fansubbing site?), then the official streamers/providers like Sentai Filmworks' HIDIVE, Anime! Network, Funimation, CartoonNetwork... anime exploded worldwide due to the internet and subs proliferated like mushrooms after a rainstorm.
| @KiliianSleipnir My original post refers to the post 2000 era when fan subbing was a thing and before a significant percentage of anime recieved a dub without a major delay. |
May 5, 1:28 PM
#87
Reply to Zarutaku
KiliianSleipnir said:
RICH SHAMING IS MORONIC
RICH SHAMING IS MORONIC
I didn't shame anyone, I just said how it is. Personally, I actually don't care that much if someone watches dubs, I just answered the topic question.
| @Zarutaku "making a fortune is more important to the producers than artistic integrity." that right there was rich shaming. "making a fortune is more important" than a 'something', which you consider to be more 'valid' or 'worthwhile' or 'beneficial' than making a fortune. shame, a feeling of embarrassment or humiliation that arises from the perception of having done something unethical, dishonorable, immoral, or improper. fortune. not a profit. not breaking even. not taking a loss. making a fortune. you're rich. anime producers fund the anime studios to make the shows. book publishers buy the mangaka/authors' works and edit them and print them or upload them online. merchandise factories get designs and ideas and the rights to characters etc. anime. books. merch. those are The Big Three of the otaku industrial system. each one HAS to make a profit, or they have failed. if a translated LN/manga, or a streamed/sub/dub anime overseas, or shipping merch outside of Japan keeps those Big Three from ONLY breaking even? good job! |
May 5, 1:37 PM
#88
Reply to ColourWheel
BubblegumPatty said:
I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees.
I think a part of it is an artifact from back in the ye olden days when the Dubs were just plain bad, and very often cut or edited content to excessive degrees.
The most ironic thing about this is Anime without any sort of Dub that managed to get bootlegged or even sometimes on rare occasion get Officially released in the West had just as bad English subtitles created back before the turn of the century too, either officially or even fan made. I remember back in the early 90s randomly buying a few VHS Anime bootlegs to watch that were being sold at a comic book convention. Whoever created the subtitles that were hardcoded to the VHS tapes for the few copies of "Urusei Yatsura" episodes I bought clearly didn't understand Nihongo. Often times noticing entire lines of dialogue and phrasing being completely miss-interpreted or just down right not even close to what was actually being said in the episodes. lol
For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
ColourWheel said: You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, I see tons of claims of x fansubbed sucks, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate. For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol Purple_Gh0st24 said: I mean gatekeeping isn't a thing... being an ass, can be a thing though, which is the only thing I am objecting too. No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want. |
May 5, 1:43 PM
#89
Reply to BilboBaggins365
ColourWheel said:
For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, I see tons of claims of x fansubbed sucks, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate. For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
Purple_Gh0st24 said:
No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want.
I mean gatekeeping isn't a thing... being an ass, can be a thing though, which is the only thing I am objecting too. No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want.
BilboBaggins365 said: I mean gatekeeping isn't a thing... being an ass, can be a thing though, which is the only thing I am objecting too. On that, we can agree. This whole thing shouldn't be an argument. |
May 5, 1:46 PM
#90
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@Zarutaku
"making a fortune is more important to the producers than artistic integrity." that right there was rich shaming. "making a fortune is more important" than a 'something', which you consider to be more 'valid' or 'worthwhile' or 'beneficial' than making a fortune. shame, a feeling of embarrassment or humiliation that arises from the perception of having done something unethical, dishonorable, immoral, or improper.
fortune. not a profit. not breaking even. not taking a loss. making a fortune. you're rich.
anime producers fund the anime studios to make the shows. book publishers buy the mangaka/authors' works and edit them and print them or upload them online. merchandise factories get designs and ideas and the rights to characters etc.
anime.
books.
merch.
those are The Big Three of the otaku industrial system. each one HAS to make a profit, or they have failed. if a translated LN/manga, or a streamed/sub/dub anime overseas, or shipping merch outside of Japan keeps those Big Three from ONLY breaking even? good job!
"making a fortune is more important to the producers than artistic integrity." that right there was rich shaming. "making a fortune is more important" than a 'something', which you consider to be more 'valid' or 'worthwhile' or 'beneficial' than making a fortune. shame, a feeling of embarrassment or humiliation that arises from the perception of having done something unethical, dishonorable, immoral, or improper.
fortune. not a profit. not breaking even. not taking a loss. making a fortune. you're rich.
anime producers fund the anime studios to make the shows. book publishers buy the mangaka/authors' works and edit them and print them or upload them online. merchandise factories get designs and ideas and the rights to characters etc.
anime.
books.
merch.
those are The Big Three of the otaku industrial system. each one HAS to make a profit, or they have failed. if a translated LN/manga, or a streamed/sub/dub anime overseas, or shipping merch outside of Japan keeps those Big Three from ONLY breaking even? good job!
KiliianSleipnir said: "making a fortune is more important to the producers than artistic integrity." that right there was rich shaming. "making a fortune is more important" than a 'something', which you consider to be more 'valid' or 'worthwhile' or 'beneficial' than making a fortune. Again, I just said how it is, not a value judgement, I don't care if they earn money that way, not my business. |
DesuMaiden said: Nobody resembles me physically because I don't even physically exist. |
May 5, 1:49 PM
#91
Reply to BilboBaggins365
ColourWheel said:
For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, I see tons of claims of x fansubbed sucks, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate. For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
Purple_Gh0st24 said:
No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want.
I mean gatekeeping isn't a thing... being an ass, can be a thing though, which is the only thing I am objecting too. No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want.
BilboBaggins365 said: You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, there are discussions of accuracy, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate. No I didn't watch any fansubs from the 2000s. I have just been able to understand Nihongo practically my entire life. I basically grew up as a baby living in Osaka Japan till I basically reached primary school, even though I was born in Seoul Korea. I moved to North America from Japan in the mid to late 80s and have lived in the West since. So I have no reason to try to do any comparison, I just simply knew how bad English subtitles for Anime were back in the VHS days just from experiencing them. As equivalent hypothetical example, Just imagine watching some random Western film with hardcoded subtitles on it in actual English where someone would say something like, "I know what you did last summer."... But the text at the bottom of the screen says in English, "Summer I know is here, just like last". lol Then just imagine almost all dialogue lines being translated like that all throughout watching an entire film. Sounds pretty annoying huh? lol |
ColourWheelMay 5, 2:31 PM
May 5, 1:52 PM
#92
Reply to ColourWheel
BilboBaggins365 said:
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, there are discussions of accuracy, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate.
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, there are discussions of accuracy, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate.
No I didn't watch any fansubs from the 2000s. I have just been able to understand Nihongo practically my entire life. I basically grew up as a baby living in Osaka Japan till I basically reached primary school, even though I was born in Seoul Korea. I moved to North America from Japan in the mid to late 80s and have lived in the West since. So I have no reason to try to do any comparison, I just simply knew how bad English subtitles for Anime were back in the VHS days just from experiencing them. As equivalent hypothetical example, Just imagine watching some random Western film with hardcoded subtitles on it in actual English where someone would say something like, "I know what you did last summer."... But the text at the bottom of the screen says in English, "Summer I know is here, just like last". lol Then just imagine almost all dialogue lines being translated like that all throughout watching an entire film. Sounds pretty annoying huh? lol
| @ColourWheel Fair was just curious, and I probably will stay curious. If I was to learn another language, I frankly need to pick up my French from school, since it's more relevant to me. IDK, again as long as it's giving a jist of what is being said, that is enough for me, which I assume is the current standard. |
May 5, 2:07 PM
#93
Reply to Purple_Gh0st24
@KiliianSleipnir It is not as though anyone is forcing people to watch shows any particular way. No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want. Comparing that to racial segregation is... an odd choice. Is the government stopping you from watching anime the way you want to? Are they beating, imprisoning, and lynching you? Is your life under constant threat of violence over your anime preferences? Have people been murdered over this? It is tone-deaf to compare them. How ghastly. It is insulting to anyone whom has experienced segregation. This is an odd form of racism.
"Should" as I used it does not mean "the government or big companies should enforce this," not that they could anyway. "Should" here means "this is more recommended." Is it gatekeeping to point out that a person who isn't fanatical about anime is not fanatical about anime? I think not. It's just stating the obvious.
"Should" as I used it does not mean "the government or big companies should enforce this," not that they could anyway. "Should" here means "this is more recommended." Is it gatekeeping to point out that a person who isn't fanatical about anime is not fanatical about anime? I think not. It's just stating the obvious.
| @Purple_Gh0st24 living in Alabama full time since 2008 till today. born here where i live in the 1970's but moved away before i was 1y/o. father and mother both born in Southern Segregation. moved all over the US and around the world too. so. :> yeah. i've got MORE than enough chops to say it. government? uhh no, it was first THE GENERAL POPULACE who did it and the response to the population that enacted the laws. also, the lawsuits in the courts filed by the population/people individuals upheld the policies. later on the population shifted their ideas and Civil Rights Act 1964. protestors. Freedom Riders stopped in my town right here and talked to folks. you've got a fairly 'backwards' knowledge of history. you yourself are stating these things. you're putting it out there. sure, you're not a rule maker, lawman, official etc. but ideas spread faster than wildfires and are harder to stomp out. the Governments of the world STILL regulate broadcasts and the movies and radio and music purchases and suchforth. Cardcaptor Sakura 4Kids. Pokemon. lots of older anime titles in the past. edited. censored. hacked to pieces and cobbled back together to follow the public norms and official rules. Disney let Starlord FBOMB for their first time ever thereby loosening their 'corporate image'. Japan regulates their media also! strawman fallacy. you're throwing 'the government' everywhere for no reason, why? your stance too weak to support otherwise? nope, i never brought that up. i was talking about YOU and what YOU said. not what the government does. "Nobody should still be watching" "People need to learn to" i forgot this one earlier! "or even better, raw anime." nobody. meaning entirely forbidding anybody from something. 'nobody move! this is a robbery!' 'nobody leaves till their work is done.' People. humans in general, fairly broad reaching, all people? some people? 2 people? no. you just use People meaning all humans. guy talking to a noisy group, 'people people people! shut up! sit down! and listen!' that is everybody in the group. very inclusive! need to. a need is something keeping a living being alive. a necessity. a want is an impulse or desire. you need water. you want Coke instead. so you think all humans (people) will be kept alive (need to) by doing something. "better, raw anime." the progression of your statements are ESCALATING with restrictions! first sentence 'nobody watch dubs after first exposure to anime'. second sentence 'for continued existence, all human beings will learn to watch subs and finally progress to the pinnacle which are raws'. seriously? gatekeeping at its core. pretty harsh too. |
May 5, 2:22 PM
#94
Reply to Hiyajo-san
@KiliianSleipnir
My original post refers to the post 2000 era when fan subbing was a thing and before a significant percentage of anime recieved a dub without a major delay.
My original post refers to the post 2000 era when fan subbing was a thing and before a significant percentage of anime recieved a dub without a major delay.
| @Hiyajo-san okeydokey! i appreciate the clarification! :D |
May 5, 2:27 PM
#95
Reply to KiliianSleipnir
@Purple_Gh0st24
living in Alabama full time since 2008 till today. born here where i live in the 1970's but moved away before i was 1y/o. father and mother both born in Southern Segregation. moved all over the US and around the world too. so. :> yeah. i've got MORE than enough chops to say it.
government? uhh no, it was first THE GENERAL POPULACE who did it and the response to the population that enacted the laws. also, the lawsuits in the courts filed by the population/people individuals upheld the policies. later on the population shifted their ideas and Civil Rights Act 1964. protestors. Freedom Riders stopped in my town right here and talked to folks. you've got a fairly 'backwards' knowledge of history.
you yourself are stating these things. you're putting it out there. sure, you're not a rule maker, lawman, official etc. but ideas spread faster than wildfires and are harder to stomp out.
the Governments of the world STILL regulate broadcasts and the movies and radio and music purchases and suchforth. Cardcaptor Sakura 4Kids. Pokemon. lots of older anime titles in the past. edited. censored. hacked to pieces and cobbled back together to follow the public norms and official rules. Disney let Starlord FBOMB for their first time ever thereby loosening their 'corporate image'. Japan regulates their media also!
strawman fallacy. you're throwing 'the government' everywhere for no reason, why? your stance too weak to support otherwise? nope, i never brought that up. i was talking about YOU and what YOU said. not what the government does.
"Nobody should still be watching"
"People need to learn to"
i forgot this one earlier! "or even better, raw anime."
nobody. meaning entirely forbidding anybody from something. 'nobody move! this is a robbery!' 'nobody leaves till their work is done.'
People. humans in general, fairly broad reaching, all people? some people? 2 people? no. you just use People meaning all humans. guy talking to a noisy group, 'people people people! shut up! sit down! and listen!' that is everybody in the group. very inclusive!
need to. a need is something keeping a living being alive. a necessity. a want is an impulse or desire. you need water. you want Coke instead. so you think all humans (people) will be kept alive (need to) by doing something.
"better, raw anime." the progression of your statements are ESCALATING with restrictions! first sentence 'nobody watch dubs after first exposure to anime'. second sentence 'for continued existence, all human beings will learn to watch subs and finally progress to the pinnacle which are raws'.
seriously? gatekeeping at its core. pretty harsh too.
living in Alabama full time since 2008 till today. born here where i live in the 1970's but moved away before i was 1y/o. father and mother both born in Southern Segregation. moved all over the US and around the world too. so. :> yeah. i've got MORE than enough chops to say it.
government? uhh no, it was first THE GENERAL POPULACE who did it and the response to the population that enacted the laws. also, the lawsuits in the courts filed by the population/people individuals upheld the policies. later on the population shifted their ideas and Civil Rights Act 1964. protestors. Freedom Riders stopped in my town right here and talked to folks. you've got a fairly 'backwards' knowledge of history.
you yourself are stating these things. you're putting it out there. sure, you're not a rule maker, lawman, official etc. but ideas spread faster than wildfires and are harder to stomp out.
the Governments of the world STILL regulate broadcasts and the movies and radio and music purchases and suchforth. Cardcaptor Sakura 4Kids. Pokemon. lots of older anime titles in the past. edited. censored. hacked to pieces and cobbled back together to follow the public norms and official rules. Disney let Starlord FBOMB for their first time ever thereby loosening their 'corporate image'. Japan regulates their media also!
strawman fallacy. you're throwing 'the government' everywhere for no reason, why? your stance too weak to support otherwise? nope, i never brought that up. i was talking about YOU and what YOU said. not what the government does.
"Nobody should still be watching"
"People need to learn to"
i forgot this one earlier! "or even better, raw anime."
nobody. meaning entirely forbidding anybody from something. 'nobody move! this is a robbery!' 'nobody leaves till their work is done.'
People. humans in general, fairly broad reaching, all people? some people? 2 people? no. you just use People meaning all humans. guy talking to a noisy group, 'people people people! shut up! sit down! and listen!' that is everybody in the group. very inclusive!
need to. a need is something keeping a living being alive. a necessity. a want is an impulse or desire. you need water. you want Coke instead. so you think all humans (people) will be kept alive (need to) by doing something.
"better, raw anime." the progression of your statements are ESCALATING with restrictions! first sentence 'nobody watch dubs after first exposure to anime'. second sentence 'for continued existence, all human beings will learn to watch subs and finally progress to the pinnacle which are raws'.
seriously? gatekeeping at its core. pretty harsh too.
| @KiliianSleipnir Umm... are you okay? Like, genuinely, are you okay? Please sit this one out if it's distressing you. I would normally offer a hug or something here, but that's not physically possible. If a person expressing their opinions makes you feel restricted somehow, maybe that is a sign it's time to log off. |
May 5, 3:03 PM
#96
Reply to ColourWheel
BilboBaggins365 said:
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, there are discussions of accuracy, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate.
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, there are discussions of accuracy, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate.
No I didn't watch any fansubs from the 2000s. I have just been able to understand Nihongo practically my entire life. I basically grew up as a baby living in Osaka Japan till I basically reached primary school, even though I was born in Seoul Korea. I moved to North America from Japan in the mid to late 80s and have lived in the West since. So I have no reason to try to do any comparison, I just simply knew how bad English subtitles for Anime were back in the VHS days just from experiencing them. As equivalent hypothetical example, Just imagine watching some random Western film with hardcoded subtitles on it in actual English where someone would say something like, "I know what you did last summer."... But the text at the bottom of the screen says in English, "Summer I know is here, just like last". lol Then just imagine almost all dialogue lines being translated like that all throughout watching an entire film. Sounds pretty annoying huh? lol
| @ColourWheel i REALLY have to second Color here. easiest comparison and also largest number of episodes? Conan. the detective not the barbarian. ;> everybody pretty much agrees, Funimation's Dub was atrocious slop. when they quit, all those episodes from -there- till Crunchyroll bought the streaming and subtitle rights -now-... are all fansubs. all of em. you can find the fansubbed eps in that coverage gap on lots of grey-web streaming sites. some groups, were STELLAR. above and beyond all reasonable expectations of the pros who were doing it legally on payroll. some groups, were like Color mentioned... worse than Engrish. another comparison? 'Strike the Blood' POST S1 TV series. when they went to BR/DVD disk only OVA sales. animotvslashz . blogspot . com that group? barf. in. your. mouth. bad. then they kept it up with 'Komi Can't Communicate S1 & S2' they did NOT improve. now, if you're time-traveling in the USA in the 1990's looking for historic collectibles on VHS/DVD... yeah. anime bootlegs. don't bother. i never did. Yahoo! Groups and the BBS anime discussions definitely steered me away from those. not worth the dollars. nope. another fun one, i can't remember the guy's YTID or i'd send you right to him. he did an awesome documentary uploaded on YouTube about Nintendo of America's horrific botch-job on The Legend of Zelda NES English release. he even interviewed a few NOA employees who WORKED on the game and the box and inserts before it was shipped. the fun bits of that one, only one person was mildly fluent in Japanese on the US team. the Japan team doing the coding changes from Japanese to English in the game had 3 hurdles. their team were codemonkeys not linguists. the length of the character strings permitted for each line of text. the overall storage capacity of an NES cartridge. cat in English three characters/letters. cat in Japanese 猫 neko, one character. a black cat (11 with spaces included) or 黒猫 kuro neko (2). later on, better work was done in-game and all the outside pieces. but the first US released Legend of Zelda cartridges were mighty rough to put it generously. and folks today grumble about AI and MTL. ;> |
May 5, 3:44 PM
#97
| I enjoy watching English anime dubs alot. I don't care other people dislike anime dubs. I enjoy it. |
May 5, 3:59 PM
#98
Reply to BilboBaggins365
thewiru said:
People are heavily opinionated on that, though.
In my experience, not really. People have preferences, some don't get audio books, others do, however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading. People are heavily opinionated on that, though.
thewiru said:
Technically, someone who read the plot on Wikipedia or via TikToks can also "discuss the story", and that's how the Jujutsu Kaisen fanbase was born.
Well you can dislike the argument however, this argument is frankly crazyl. Are you seriously arguing watching a dub is the same as just reading a synopsis? Technically, someone who read the plot on Wikipedia or via TikToks can also "discuss the story", and that's how the Jujutsu Kaisen fanbase was born.
thewiru said:
You justified your position, made arguments in favor of it, and that's how it should be.
Yeah but you shouldn't have to "justify it". It's a personal preference, the justification could be "IDK I just like it", and that would be fair. Just because I have a more "valid" reason, doesn't mean others need to share that. It's not a logical debate, it's about feelings and emotions. You justified your position, made arguments in favor of it, and that's how it should be.
thewiru said:
I didn't though, I wrote this because I was arguing that on Twitter with some people today and they themselves told me that.
Okay...that wasn't exactly clear, at least to me. I didn't though, I wrote this because I was arguing that on Twitter with some people today and they themselves told me that.
thewiru said:
Why do people consider "The guy who ask you to name 5 songs if he see's you with a NIRVANA shirt" to be wrong?
If you got up in someone's face, yelling "poser" to someone who is just wearing their shirt for aesthetic appeal, that would be consider very improper. Plus I don't think this is a fair argument. Watching dubs, isn't a lack of anime knowledge, beyond the many shows that aren't dubbed, which most anime fans don't watch anyway. You can have a significant library of experience as a dub watcher. Why do people consider "The guy who ask you to name 5 songs if he see's you with a NIRVANA shirt" to be wrong?
thewiru said:
didn't start a campaign saying that "flexing your numbers is wrong", I was simply not intimidated by the guy, caught him in his BS and asked him to substantiate his claims. He wasn't able to, so he blocked.
I mean I would say acting like an ass to people is wrong. Sure you shouldn't be "intimidated" by others online, however, I mean we aren't at a debate club. Even when discussing disagreements, I think people should give the benefit of the doubt, and have a sense of graciousness and kindness, as ideal and utopian that hope would be. Sure, respond to whatever claim it is; however, he still in the wrong regardless. didn't start a campaign saying that "flexing your numbers is wrong", I was simply not intimidated by the guy, caught him in his BS and asked him to substantiate his claims. He wasn't able to, so he blocked.
thewiru said:
It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd.
....I mean I just use whatever name is the easiest. I am not calling Attack On Titan by its Japanese name, Your Lie in April is not Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso. I am not calling Ghost in the Shell Koukaku Kidoutai, and I almost have never seen anyone in the English fandom refer to it by that name. Like sure if it's easy like Yuru Camp, I will use the Japanese name. And again, I watch primarily subbed and I use English names all the time. It's like I said on other threads: "Anime of the Year" voting, ANN, Crunchyroll, Reddit, ALL OF THEM USE English names, meaning they're there to appeal to the dub crowd.
thewiru said:
"Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations"
So you talk to someone about an anime, you go back and forth, and then you decide to what? Cut conversation with them once you found out they watched the show dubbed? I mean you are free to do so, I think it's quite irrational though. "Oh, but they're also being excluded from sub conversations"
thewiru said:
Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like.
I tend to have negative impressions of people who in general care about it. Whether that be sub elitists or dub watchers that feel they have to constantly justify themselves by depreciating watching in subbed. So I guess that works for me. Meanwhile my experiences gave me a lot of negative preconceptions about dub watchers, so now I associate them with people who are not like me and to aspects of the community which I don't like.
thewiru said:
It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird".
Most "normies" literally don't care, and aren't online getting into debates like this lol.It has to be like that, you HAVE TO codify watching subs as the correct, superior alternative to combat the hordes of normies that will be "Ehrm, why are you watching something in another language? That's weird".
BilboBaggins365 said: however, no one would claim, you haven't read the book, if you listened to an audiobook versus reading. >>>/lit/ BilboBaggins365 said: Are you seriously arguing watching a dub is the same as just reading a synopsis? No, but I'm arguing that watching a dub isn't the same as watching a sub, and that the "as long as you're able to know the story" argument isn't valid because it would result in reading Wikipedia being seen as equally as valid. BilboBaggins365 said: Yeah but you shouldn't have to "justify it". It's a personal preference, the justification could be "IDK I just like it", and that would be fair. Just because I have a more "valid" reason, doesn't mean others need to share that. It's not a logical debate, it's about feelings and emotions. I don't think I can understand you here, because all my life I was led to believe the opposite. I even wrote a thread about it once: Would the world be a better place if people had to justify all their actions? It became a personal philosophy of mine: I think that if people do things without thinking, they'll do bad things, wrong things, and I'm not an exception. BilboBaggins365 said: If you got up in someone's face, yelling "poser" to someone who is just wearing their shirt for aesthetic appeal, that would be consider very improper. I don't get why, though. "Poser" is only offensive if you do want the approval of the group. If you're using the shirt only for aesthetics, that terms should mean nothing to you. Like I said in that thread: If that's the case just... say that you're only using it for the aesthetics. What's the other guy going to do? Steal the shirt from you? BilboBaggins365 said: beyond the many shows that aren't dubbed, which most anime fans don't watch anyway. You can have a significant library of experience as a dub watcher. I mean, those two parts, side-by-side are like saying "You can be considered rich in Haiti", though "rich in Haiti" doesn't mean much in other countries. You're correct that someone who watches dubs can know a lot more than a sub casual, I even praised 90's and early-2000's anime DVDs for that. The thing is that I'm talking about a higher level than both of those. Like my "anime is still underground" threads convey: I don't really care about "most anime fans", I care about a specific subset which is the only one I really consider to be fans. BilboBaggins365 said: Sure you shouldn't be "intimidated" by others online, however, I mean we aren't at a debate club. Even when discussing disagreements, I think people should give the benefit of the doubt, and have a sense of graciousness and kindness, as ideal and utopian that hope would be. I was never "socialized" like that, so this way of thinking is fairly new to me. You could say that for maybe the last two years I've been trying to put that in practice: I ask people "Why do you feel that way?", "Why do you think that?" Often people don't respond, and that bums me. For instance, this happened four days ago, and I'm still waiting for that guy's response: https://x.com/SkySumisu/status/1918095288109306036 People historically were very mean to me, so in the last few years I've been wanting to be nice to other people. BilboBaggins365 said: I am not calling Attack On Titan by its Japanese name, Your Lie in April is not Shigatsu wa Kimi no Uso. I am not calling Ghost in the Shell Koukaku Kidoutai, and I almost have never seen anyone in the English fandom refer to it by that name. And thus you can't understand me here. BilboBaggins365 said: So you talk to someone about an anime, you go back and forth, and then you decide to what? Cut conversation with them once you found out they watched the show dubbed? I don't think any talk ever went that far, though. |
May 5, 4:04 PM
#99
Reply to BilboBaggins365
ColourWheel said:
For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
You know what to settle a debate....did you watch fansubs from the 2000s too? How did they differ from official versions on BDs/CR now? I mean even within fansub communities, I see tons of claims of x fansubbed sucks, so I never got the feeling they were always super accurate. For any westerner who doesn't understand Nihongo wouldn't know any better unless someone pointed it out to them, which basically amount to almost never. lol
Purple_Gh0st24 said:
No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want.
I mean gatekeeping isn't a thing... being an ass, can be a thing though, which is the only thing I am objecting too. No one is stopping you from watching dubs if that's what you want.
BilboBaggins365 said: I mean gatekeeping isn't a thing... being an ass, can be a thing though, which is the only thing I am objecting too. It's because gatekeeping doesn't work that I'm not against doing it. Since it doesn't work, if someone does stop doing something because of it, it's 100% on them. Like I said in my comment about the term "poser": It only means something to you if you want acceptance in that community. If you don't, then it's just a word. Once again: The only power you have over them is the power THEY give to you. |
May 5, 4:13 PM
#100
| Because watching little girls get sexualized in English doesn't turn on most purists. These are the same people who will rip apart anything popular because "it has no story" or whatever lame excuse that's based in some alternate reality. Then they go fap to a series about a dude whose wife got reincarnated as a child. They have to support the brother-sister romances because it's art, but call My Hero Academia a slideshow. Just read the awesome comments right after you posted and look at their lists. This is their little world and they think they know best because they watched 800 anime on 2x speed. |
DiznyOrdizMay 5, 4:18 PM
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